Episode 178: Joe Katz, Jersey Jack Pinball programmer

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·27m 54s·analyzed·Feb 14, 2019

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

JJP programmer Joe Katz on balancing casual/competitive design and Pirates character strategies.

Summary

Joe Katz, game programmer at Jersey Jack Pinball, discusses his role in designing four games (Wizard of Oz, Hobbit, Dialed In, Pirates of the Caribbean), emphasizing the importance of appealing to both casual and tournament players. He explains design philosophy around depth vs. accessibility, the value of having competitive players on staff, and specific rule set innovations like balls in reserve and tilt warnings. Katz details character strategies for Pirates of the Caribbean and discusses upcoming streaming plans.

Key Claims

Tournament players are driving the pinball industry and appreciate deep rule sets and graphics more than casual players
high confidence · Joe Katz directly states tournament players are 'driving this industry' and 'really get a kick out of' deep games and appreciate the design work.
Jersey Jack games are designed as 'journey games' based on their IP properties rather than as an intentional company design philosophy
high confidence · Katz clarifies that journey-game feel emerges from properties like Hobbit which have 'nine hours of movies' to draw from, not a company mandate.
Wide-body format decisions at Jersey Jack were case-by-case based on design needs rather than market strategy
high confidence · Katz explains Wizard of Oz was wide-body to 'stuff all this stuff into this game,' and Pirates used it for ship mechanics, but denies it's a company policy.
Dialed In's mode-focused scoring was intentional to make players experience the city destruction and avoid timeout strategies
high confidence · Katz states 'we wanted to make people destroy the city' by playing modes, and Big Bang was added as 'casual friendly' entry point.
Jersey Jack will continue streaming with Jack Danger on Valentine's Day showing Pirates CE version
high confidence · Katz confirms 'on Valentine's Day, we're going to have Jack Danger out from Deadflip, and we're going to show the CE Pirates off on his stream.'

Notable Quotes

“I think the tournament players right now seem to be kind of driving this industry, at least in my opinion... I think tournament players really get a kick out of all that and really can appreciate it when they really dive deep into these games.”
Joe Katz @ ~5:00-6:00 — Directly addresses why Jersey Jack employs competitive players and how they shape game design priorities.
“I think games would be a lot more interesting if there was less of that going on... I like to make games where that is a lot more gray area.”
Joe Katz @ ~18:00-19:00 — Explains his design philosophy against single dominant strategies, citing 90s games as negative example.
“The team and I, Ted and JT, we wanted to make people destroy the city. And the way you destroy the city is by playing the modes. So we figured, all right, if we want them to progress forward and destroy the city, let's make the modes be really valuable.”
Joe Katz @ ~25:00-26:00 — Reveals intentional design decision in Dialed In to prioritize modes over multiball, breaking from industry convention.
“I don't think I would have pushed forward to being there more [crazy Bob voice]... I think we found a happy medium of the usage of crazy and not did overdo it.”
Joe Katz @ ~30:00-31:00 — Clarifies misconception about voice acting involvement and shows willingness to iterate based on feedback.
“From a programming standpoint, yeah, I mean, we definitely try to push the envelope and try new things... something as simple as balls in reserve, it's such a small change to the way the game flow goes.”
Joe Katz @ ~36:00-37:00 — Highlights small innovation examples that differentiate Jersey Jack games from competitors.
“With her [Tia Dama], you can light up all five chapters to get the best value out of the chapter that you're going to play, and then pick the red one, pick the movie three, pick the movie three, and continue to do that.”
Joe Katz @ ~52:00 — Detailed strategic explanation demonstrating deep understanding of Pirates rule set mechanics.

Entities

Joe Katzperson Jersey Jack Pinballcompany Pat Lawlorperson Keith JohnsonpersonKieferpersonPirates of the Caribbeangame Dialed In

Signals

?
community_signal: Jersey Jack planning resumed streaming schedule with content creator collaborations (Jack Danger Valentine's Day stream, planned JJP Live returns).
high · Katz: 'on Valentine's Day, we're going to have Jack Danger out from Deadflip, and we're going to show the CE Pirates off on his stream... we hope to get back to doing JJP Live as well.'
?
competitive_signal: Dialed In tournament meta dominated by Big Bang loop strategy despite developer intention for mode-diverse play; Katz expresses disappointment at lack of strategic exploration.
high · Katz: 'I'm actually a little disappointed that that's sort of the narrative on a tournament play of that game, because I think there's some better ways to score points in that game.'
?
design_philosophy: Katz criticizes dominant-path strategy paradigm in 90s games and seeks to design games with less binary play patterns and more gray-area decision-making.
high · Katz: 'I play something from the 90s and, you know, everybody knows, do this, do this, time out this, ignore this. I think games would be a lot more interesting if there was less of that going on.'
?
design_philosophy: Jersey Jack intentionally designs for both casual and tournament audiences, with rule set depth and accessibility as co-equal goals rather than trade-offs.
high · Katz: 'I absolutely have to cover both... a casual player and a quote-unquote deep rule set. And we try to do both.'
$
market_signal: Jersey Jack positions itself as innovation leader by designing each game with unique mechanical/software features; Katz states 'they all are very unique. They all feel very different.'

Transcript

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0:00

I think I'm going to Kathmandu That's really, really where I'm going to If I ever get out of here That's what I'm going to do It's time now for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Kulis. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com And please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. And send your Tylenol, cold, and sinus pills to me. as I fight this winter cold. Boo-hoo, the polar vortex has gotten me. We go to another place that's pretty darn cold right now. In Illinois, we talk to Joe Katz, the game programmer for Jersey Jack Pinball. Joe, great to have you on. Thanks for having me. You and I have seen each other at a few places. Last year, I can think of Pinball Expo, which was an easy get for you, and a big, big presentation from Jersey Jack. It was nice to see Pat Lawler there, talk about Dialed In and the whole team there. And then the New York City Championships, too, which was a lot of fun in May. So I hope to see you at other tournaments. Are you going to be out and about this year? Yeah, I should be at New York. I've got a ticket for it, so I do plan on going to New York. Pinburg is the hope, assuming I get in and don't get locked out by some kind of ticket situation. But typically I would go to Papa in Pinburg, but since Papa hasn't really been happening anymore, I'm kind of replacing it with New York for now. So, Joe, what's interesting is we've seen pinball, the landscape, change a lot since Jersey Jack first came in with Wizard of Oz coming out in 2013. But one thing I've noticed with you being at Jersey Jack and Kiefer, Keith Johnson being there, two very, very good pinball players. And over the last year, we've seen other pinball companies kind of adapt. You know what? It's probably good to have some players there. They certainly know the games. They have the experience. Stern's done it with Zach and Keith and Tim. Deep Root has Stephen Bowden and Spooky Bowen Cairns. even American added Joe Schober. So you must think it's important, and I assume the game designers think it's important, to have actual pinball competitive players be a part of the company and the creations. Yeah, I do think it's important. I think the people that are playing these games and get really into them are pretty much tournament players. I mean, obviously there are casual players who buy our games, but I think the tournament players right now seem to be kind of driving this industry, at least in my opinion. I mean, you sell to casual players and casual families that just want a game in their basement, but I think the real love and the real appreciation for what we do now and how deep these games are and all the graphics we put into them, I think tournament players really get a kick out of all that and really can appreciate it when they really dive deep into these games. Well, you've used the word deep a few times there in the last couple of sentences there, and that's something you can definitely say about a Jersey Jack pinball machine. But it's interesting, when Wizard of Oz first came out, I thought, wow, if ever there's a game for a collector who might not be a tournament player or a competition player, that's the game, yet it is also deep. So you kind of cover both areas, I guess, with the Jersey Jack machines, and you can say that about all four of them. Yeah, you absolutely have to cover both, you know, a casual player and a quote-unquote deep rule set. And we try to do both. We want to appeal to somebody who is dropping some dollars into a game and they get some entertainment out of it. And we also want to appeal to somebody who's going to sit there and play it for three, four, five, six, seven, eight months and just go into every little aspect of it. Dennis from the Eclectic Gamers podcast and I were talking about games. I mean, he's certainly very well versed as far as knowing different games and really digging into them and stuff. And he made a good point that I thought was interesting about the Jersey Jack games. He talked about them being journey games as opposed to really, you know, Dialed In may not be the one, but definitely with Woz and Hobbit and Pirates of the Caribbean, you're on this journey, which obviously makes them a little deeper. Is that kind of a focus of Jersey Jack, to have these type of journey games? Well, I wouldn't say it's a focus. I think the property being used, like Hobbit, for example, just sort of lends itself to giving that journey feel to it. I don't think it's necessarily a company stance to say we need to make journey games. I think it definitely depends on the property. Dialed in, it's not exactly a journey, but also it's a world we created, so you really couldn't just lean on nine hours of movies like Hobbit does. So I wouldn't say it's something we want to do in every game or have to do. It just sort of is a case-by-case basis. And the decision for Jersey Jack in the first two games before Pat Lawler came on with Dialed In, and we saw it go back to it in Pirates, these were wide-body games. Was that just because there was so much to put in them? Was there a conscious reason to do a void in the pinball market because Stern doesn't do wide-bodies anymore? We don't see wide-bodies. And I said just recently on a Pinball Profile podcast and even on the Twit podcast, I love wide-bodies. So I wonder, is that something that Jersey Jack is trying to, there is that void, we're trying to fill that void? I think with Oz, and again, I wasn't here in the early, early days, but I think for Oz, it definitely was a, hey, nobody's doing this anymore, and we're going to stuff all this stuff into this game, and we might as well make it a wide body. I think, again, it's not a company stance that we have to do wide bodies. It just sort of worked for Eric stuffing all he stuffed in the Pirates, putting a ship in the back and putting another ship in the back. It just sort of made sense in that case. But I don't think it's something that we have to do. As far as being a game programmer, now four games under the Jersey Jack belt, We know there's going to be some excitement here in 2019. On this program, I don't ask any of my guests to reveal what the secrets are. We don't speculate about rumors or anything like that, so not my style. But I do wonder, with the past machines you had, you've seen some of the things that are successful in code. Are there things you've come across that maybe were less well-received? I think, again, it's certain people can play something like Dialed In and it be a little bit more clear cut as to what you need to do and not so just a wide array of depth in every corner of the game. But I think people have different responses to a game that is a little bit more casual friendly or just a little bit more straightforward versus something that, you know, Hobbit or Pirates that is just layer upon layer People tend to kind of go either you know some people like them a little bit more straightforward some people like them a little bit deeper like where they have to spend a month to figure it out. I think I've learned that there's definitely a balance between both of those, but I can't say for sure if, you know, one is better than the other, I guess. I think there's room for both of them. You talk about Pirates of the Caribbean, and this is a game that was marketed as never the same game twice. And you and I know from playing in competitions and playing all kinds of different pinball machines, Kiefer would know this too, there are many games that have come out, and some recently, that even though there are multiple modes and different multiballs, the tournament players and the way to blow the game up is really one or two paths, and you might ignore ten other paths. So I think when I look at Pirates, I think there are several different ways to play that. And if you're in a competition, and you're going fourth, you might not get to play the way you want to because somebody might have taken your character. So I think that was an interesting rule set that Kiefer put in there to make you play different ways. Yeah, absolutely. The character aspect of selecting your character is a nice way to force people to learn a different way to play, especially in a tournament. I mean, if I'm going to go in a tournament and I'm going to play in a four-player game with pirates, you know going first especially someone who knows the game as well as I do you know I may want to pick xyz character and with dialed in it's interesting because I've been watching uh I forgot what the last big tournament was that was streamed uh in disc I believe it was and I'm watching people play dialed in and there's still this sense of oh I'm just going to light big bang and I'm going to hit big bang and I'm going to light a sim card and I'm just going to rinse and repeat and continue to do that. I think I'm actually a little disappointed that that's sort of the narrative on a tournament play of that game, because I think there's some better ways to score points in that game. Like hitting Big Bang and completing a mode is all well and good, but once you've got a few SIM cards in your pocket actually collected, Big Bang is actually really going against you in terms of points, because those modes are only awarding points multiplied by the sim card value stuff for shots that you actually made. So like, if you have two sim cards and you're in Alien Invasion, you're really better off actually trying to hit that roving shot and clearing those shots after it to get just a slew of more points. I'm ready for people to start to open that game up a little bit more and stop kind of focusing on Big Bang. And I think Pirates has done a really nice job of forcing multiple ways to play with multiple strategies with multiple characters. Like you said, a lot of games, you know, path one, path two, and I'm going to ignore all other paths. I like to make games where that is a lot more gray area. It's like I play something from the 90s and, you know, everybody knows, do this, do this, time out this, ignore this. I think games would be a lot more interesting if there was less of that going on. And I think Pirates did a pretty good job of doing that. And I tried to add some stuff to Dialed In with the Quantum Theater multiball and some of the increased value of other things to try to push people away from the idea that Big Bang is the only answer. It's an interesting conversation going across all eras. I think Pirates did a pretty good job of that, basically. You were talking about some of those 90s games and the certain paths that we take and timing out modes. Well, I've got two questions for you. One, what are your favorite games and era? And the second question would be the great thing about Dialed In. When it came out, it was one of the first games I had seen in a while where you're like, wait a minute, the modes are actually worth more than the multiball. Or at least you can certainly build everything up. So that was a big switch to force players to play the modes, which I really, really liked. So, again, favorite games and era, and then talk about the importance of modes. So, era-wise, I really like System 11 games. I find, I mean, all of them, A, B, C, you know, however they get broken down into the time period. I think games like Whirlwind and High Speed and just games of that time, especially from a tournament perspective, can be so brutal and so unrewarding if you don't execute.

13:29

And yes, the multiball is there, and yes, you could get a pretty big super from the multiball if those lasers are coming in and attacking you and they've reached the last two inserts near your flipper. Those supers are pretty valuable. But I really wanted people to play the game, experience the city, experience the destruction, and at the same time, not timeout modes, not ignore them. And the Big Bang was thrown in there to kind of again and it a very casual friendly thing like hey I start a mode and oh there some alien things flying around and I see this thing pulsing in the back of the playfield. And if I hit it, something big is going to happen. I really like people playing modes and focusing on them to earn the points that they want and not just here are five balls on the playfield and you're going to rack up points because there's a ball saver. That was kind of thinking was dialed in it was it was a factor of the way the ui looked it was a factor of the story and with all that kind of combined we were just like let's just make them be where the points are at is it true that you pushed very hard to have crazy bob talking the whole time during the game yeah that's that's a funny story too i as most people i think don't like to hear themselves talk. I think that's a pretty common thing with just people in general. And I'm no different than that. And when Ted was sort of, hey, you know, you got a kind of that crazy Bob voice, why don't you try it out? I was a little hesitant. I didn't want to become the next Joe Pesci with okay, okay, or whatever he says and lethal weapon and people kind of made a kind of make a joke out of it or Rocky Bullwinkle. So I was a little hesitant with it. But I think I think we found a happy medium of the usage of crazy and not did overdo it. I think at Expo when we first showed it, crazy was being said just a little bit too much. So we sort of pulled back a little bit. But no, I definitely did not try to get it in there more. I yeah, I think it was a fun experience to do it. And then I had to listen to myself talk for nine months while I'm playing the game and testing the game and writing the rules. But yeah, I don't think I don't think I would have pushed forward to being there more. As someone who talks for a living for his job, I have to agree with you, it's not fun listening. It's unfortunately mandatory depending on what you're doing, but for those that don't do it on a regular basis, yeah. I mean, it's funny, you know, when I record Pinball Profile and I talk to someone who normally doesn't talk and they hear it back and they say, do I sound like that? Well, yes, and I guess we all do. You get used to it. It's been a long time since I forgot what that was like, but I'm with you there. Totally. And even with the streams that we were doing for a while there. I would love to upload them to YouTube, and I don't even want to play them. I don't even want to listen to them because I don't really want to hear myself talking on them. I got away with Bob. It worked out. People seemed to like it. It didn't seem to turn into some pinball joke. I think I might be retired from doing voices, but you never know. Are there plans to do more of those streams? They were quite well received. Yeah, we're definitely going to do more streams. Actually, on Valentine's Day, we're going to have Jack Danger out from Deadflip, and we're going to show the CE Pirates off on his stream. So we are going to do more streams. We just have been really busy and just haven't had a chance to kind of put it together and do it regularly like we were doing while we were trying to keep Pirates going. But, yeah, I look forward to that Thursday. It'll be kind of fun to have Jack here. You know, he's got a pretty big following that's almost not even just a pinball audience. He's sort of found a little bit of a Twitch niche, I guess you would call it. and kind of follow him. So it'll be cool to have us on his channel, and it'll be kind of fun to show off a CE version of Pirates, which has some really cool-looking art and some of the armor with the barnacles on the armor and stuff. So it should be fun. And, yeah, we hope to get back to doing JJP Live as well. That'll be great. Look forward to that. So that's on Thursday, the Valentine's edition with Jack Danger. That'll be great. One thing Jersey Jack Games have always done is kind of invent something new. It first started with Woz on the big, big screen, and every game has seen something a little bit different. It's hard to keep coming up with new ideas, and some of the ideas that have come up, we see them, and then they're gone for the next game. So I don't know how hard that is for a game programmer, a builder, a designer, coder, to come up with new things, but you've got to be pretty proud of what you've done, and hopefully we see some of these things again. Yeah. One thing that I really appreciate about our set of games is if you line them all up and you went from one to one to one and you played them all, they all are very unique. They all feel very different. They all, like you say, have some sort of innovation in them. You know, from a game design standpoint, which obviously I'm not signing play fields, but that obviously is a very, you know, pinball's been around for a very long time. And to come up with unique things on a play field takes a special person to be able to do that. From a programming standpoint, yeah, I mean, we definitely try to push the envelope and try new things. I think something as simple as balls in reserve, it's such a small change to the way the game flow goes. but it's a really nice thing when you're playing with a bunch of casuals and you're the great player and they're at your house and you're playing dialed in and I get two extra balls and they don't have to sit there and wait for me to play those extra balls. It just sort of lets the game go and other people have fun and then at the end of the game I get to finish those extra balls and they're all done anyways and they don't care anymore. Stuff like that from a programming perspective I think has been really well done. I think Keith has come up with a couple of those small things that kind of separate us. I know some people get turned off by tilt warnings per game, but at the same time, I think that's a good change too. If I'm playing somebody casually and I get two dangers per ball, it definitely allows somebody to, you know, if they're casual, I get two dangers every time I play the game. it gives me a pretty big advantage over somebody who really doesn't even want to shake the machine because they're afraid to shake the machine. So I find stuff like that, like balls in reserve and the tilt thing, I think that is just really interesting innovation that Keith has kind of come up with. I mean, the tilt warning thing isn't really a new thing. I think older games, like way back, you know, back in the day, tilting used to end the game. So it's not super different, but I can appreciate changes like that. But, yeah, I mean, obviously we're always trying to push the envelope, especially from a software perspective. We're trying to innovate and do things that aren't repeated over and over again. It's pinball. Like I said, pinball has been around for a long time, and a lot of this stuff has been done, and a lot of it will continue to be done. But we definitely pride ourselves on doing unique things and unique software tricks and gameplay aspects, definitely. Unique, reinventing pinball. Well, yes, those are definitely staples of Jersey Jack pinball. And, you know, dialed in as something that it was good to see Pat Lawler get back into pinball. We're excited to see what's next. Three great movie titles in Wizard of Oz and Hobbit and Pirates of the Caribbean. And as you know Joe the Oscars is coming up in just a few weeks And I a big big movie buff too What do you think Best Picture going to be Star is Born maybe Bohemian Rhapsody Funny I haven really seen a lot of those movies that are up there I think Black Panther might have been up in that Best Picture thing Another great movie, yeah. That's probably the only one I've seen out of those, so I'd probably vote for that one. Are you a big movie buff, or do you like the classics? Yeah, I mean, I'm not a huge movie buff. I mean, I certainly can appreciate a good movie. I wouldn't call myself a movie buff, though. You know, my friends and I, we always talk about movies, and you get in those debates. I'll give you an example. Something like, oh, I don't know, Willy Wonka. Which is the better Willy Wonka? Was it Gene Wilder or was it Johnny Depp? What do you think, Joe? I've got to say, I think they're both excellent movies. Safe answer, safe answer. Okay, here's one. I mean, I love animated movies. I'm a big, big fan. I mean, Toy Story, by far, is maybe one of the greatest animated movies and series. So, I mean, they're all good movies. Do you like Toy Story 1, 2, 3? Do you like them all? What do you think? Again, I think they're just all excellent movies. Okay. All right. Got squat out of that. Anyway, Joe, what I did get out of this interview is it's great to talk to you. I'm a big fan of Jersey Jack Pinball. I think so are the collectors, too. They're beautiful in anyone's collection. I like seeing them out. I'm seeing more and more pirates come out there. It's a game I still have to learn a lot. So before you leave, can you give me a Colesnote tip on maybe one or two characters and paths to go on on Pirates? Sure. I think something that I really like doing is I like picking Tia Dama, who is, she, her power does a couple of things. She gets an easier path to Multiball 3, Movie 3 Multiball. she makes the so basically that multi-ball is collecting the nine pieces of eight which is basically just hitting all nine shots in the game all big all the nine big arrows in the game so she'll make it easier to get there she's always like one difficulty behind every anybody else who's playing that multi-ball so when you start the game if you're not her you have to hit every shot once if you are her and you just start the game you have to shoot every shot once but neighbors will spot shots next to each other. So if I want to hit the left ramp three times, I'll get credit for the left orbit, for the left lane, and for the left ramp. On top of that, she also gets 2x value for that multi-ball. And I find something really enjoyable about that multi-ball. It's really simple. It's shoot the left ramp for the jackpot, and it lights the super jackpot under the flipper, that upper left flipper, which is right where her character icon is. That's a tough shot. It's a tough shot, but with the two-act value of it, you hit the left ramp, you try to cradle the ball on the left flipper, you just backhand it right into that under-the-flipper shot. And you can just repeat that with her. The value is endless. You're just going to rack it up with her. She also allows you to pick the chapter you want to play. So everybody else in the game, you start a chapter, and it randomly picks the chapter for you. So you have no control over like, oh, I want to do all the movie one chapters so I can try to get to that wizard mode. Well, with her, I get to choose which one out of the ones that are qualified that I want to pick. So if you're playing for a I want to see wizard mode path, she's the perfect chance to accomplish that. You can light up all five chapters to get the best value out of the chapter that you're going to play, and then pick the red one, pick the movie three, pick the movie three, and continue to do that on your way to play all five of them. With everybody else, that's a lot harder to accomplish. From a tournament side perspective, I think the easier nine pieces of eight and getting used to that under the flipper super jackpot can just be so lucrative. I've had runs where I've just been like left ramp, under the flipper, left ramp, under the flipper, and it just really comes out good for you, especially you get a Super X running at the same time, so you're not only getting double X value, but you're also getting the Super X play field value at the same time. Very, very sound strategy, for me at least. Again, you do have to get that upper flipper shot, but if you know it, that's a very reasonable way to tackle her. Okay, great. Now someone's stolen that on me. Now I'm player two. What's the other choice? So if someone stole that on you, I also really like Gibbs. I now the only thing you really have to get comfortable with him is collecting the gold now forget it I know how to collect the gold forget bash that button yeah exactly bash the button but for Gibbs you're getting 2x value in Tortuga and Tortuga is nice because it's one of those multi balls where it's just like everything is lit and I can just flail around and I'm getting jackpot and super jackpot value based on the amount of gold I bring in So if I'm Gibbs, I don't even want to go in with 50 the minimum to go that first Tortuga. I'm going to collect as much gold as I possibly can, go in there with like 110, and I only needed 50, but now I'm getting double jackpots, double supers with that 110, you know, with the math that works out for how the jackpots and the supers are calculated, which is based off of how much gold you bring in. So he's really fun, and I think he also, I believe he still also increases the value of the jets. I think the jets give you value based on your gold. I might be thinking of an older rule. But anyway, he's a decent strategy. Again, if you're not comfortable with the gold collecting, Blackbeard is a nice one. He's the one who extends the ball saver on all the multi-balls. That sort of goes against my whole ball saver flailing thing with multi-balls, but obviously in a game that lets you do it, you might as well take advantage of it. I'm okay with flailing. It's the only reason I picked Thunderstruck on ACDC, because I get rewarded for my missed shots. Sure, of course. Joe, I appreciate you doing this. All the best to you. I'm sure I'll see you in New York City, and thanks very much for coming on today. Yeah, thanks for having me, and hopefully we'll need to talk soon. Oh, I like hearing that, and I know we'll see you on the stream with Jack Danger on Thursday, on Valentine's Day, and I have a feeling 2019 is going to be a great year for Jersey Jack. Great. Thanks a lot. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. And please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. I'm Jeff Teoles.