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#18 Superman - The Classic Pinball Podcast

The Classic Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·25m 3s·analyzed·Dec 3, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Deep technical analysis of Atari Superman design, engineering, and restoration challenges.

Summary

George and Dave discuss Atari's Superman (1979), designed by Steve Richie, examining its technical innovations, manufacturing quirks, and restoration challenges. They cover Atari's unconventional engineering approach, the game's LED displays and stay-alive circuit, flipper wear issues, and restoration techniques including WPC flipper conversions. The conversation reveals Superman as Atari's finest pinball achievement before the company exited the market.

Key Claims

  • Steve Richie designed Superman as one of his first games at Atari and worked on it for approximately a full year

    high confidence · George and Dave discuss Richie's involvement; host states 'Steve Ritchie working for Atari, I believe his Superman was his first game. And he worked, I think, for a full year.'

  • Steve Richie left Atari before Superman was even released to join Williams, where he worked on Flash

    high confidence · Dave: 'he wound up leaving before Superman even came out. He went up going over to Williams and worked on flash his first game for them'

  • Atari produced approximately 5,000 Superman machines, though the exact number may be an estimate

    medium confidence · George: 'they did make 5,000 of these. That's a pretty good run.' Dave: 'It might not even be the right number. It might be more than that. we don't really know...i think it was an estimate'

  • Superman was equipped with LED displays instead of plasma displays used by other manufacturers

    high confidence · George: 'it had the first LED displays instead of the plasma everyone else was using. So it had low voltage LED, which is, you know, sort of groundbreaking.'

  • Superman features a 'stay-alive' warming circuit that keeps constant low current flowing through incandescent bulbs to extend their lifespan

    high confidence · Dave explains the circuit: 'They have a warming circuit there...a little bit of current flowing in these incandescent bulbs...it's not zero one. It's like, you know, a couple millivolts'

  • Superman's power draw runs near maximum capacity, pulling approximately 11.5 amps on a 10-amp fuse when using 44-watt bulbs

    high confidence · Dave: 'i put an ammeter across that...it was pulling like 11.5 amps on a 10 amp fuse no wonder it was blowing it'

  • Original Superman flipper assemblies are weak and worn, making it difficult to shoot to the top spinners

    high confidence · Dave: 'They're always worn out. They're always weak...typically, if they've got original parts in it, they're just weak and you can barely make the shot up to the top on both spinners.'

Notable Quotes

  • “he wound up leaving before Superman even came out. He went up going over to Williams and worked on flash his first game for them and actually got his way and got the background sound on flash.”

    Dave @ N/A — Explains Steve Richie's departure from Atari and his move to Williams, establishing his career trajectory and design influence

  • “It's a wide body. It's wider than any other pinball machine manufacturer made at that point, wider than Paragon and Big Game and so forth, Bally and Stern respectively.”

    Dave @ N/A — Highlights Superman's unique physical design compared to contemporary competitors

  • “Superman it was Steve Richie influence to do it the right way like the normal convention of everybody else And he put the scores in the back box like they supposed to be and the boards are...it was actually a real pinball head like you're supposed to have.”

    Dave @ N/A — Demonstrates Steve Richie's impact on bringing Superman into alignment with industry standards despite Atari's maverick approach

  • “They put the scores in strange places, and the back box had no boards in it. It was just like a light bulb box except for Superman.”

    Dave @ N/A — Illustrates Atari's unconventional design philosophy and Superman's exception to their standard practices

  • “They engineered that with very little...close tolerance or you know too close...it runs right on the edge of 10 amps it's pulling a lot”

    George @ N/A — Reveals the tight power management in Superman's original design, explaining fuse blowing issues during restoration

  • “we want our game to stand out. It's always working. The bulbs always work, and our game always works great because we don't trust the technicians back in the day to fix the stuff.”

    Dave @ N/A — Explains the design philosophy behind the stay-alive circuit—reliability-focused engineering for arcade operators

  • “Superman was their swan song...they left in a high note, kind of.”

    George — Positions Superman as Atari's pinnacle achievement before exiting pinball manufacturing

Entities

Steve RichiepersonEugene JarvispersonGeorge OppermanpersonJohn DaypersonDavepersonGeorgepersonJohn's Jukescompany

Signals

  • ?

    historical_signal: Steve Richie's formative work at Atari on Superman, his conflicts with management over design philosophy, and his subsequent influential career at Williams

    high · Hosts discuss Richie's year-long tenure at Atari, his departure before Superman's release, his move to Williams to design Flash, and his later acclaimed titles (Star Wars, Star Trek)

  • ?

    design_innovation: Superman's stay-alive warming circuit that applies constant low voltage to incandescent bulbs, extending lifespan and preventing rapid on-off cycling stress

    high · Dave explains: 'there would always be a little bit of current on them. They'd always be kind of warm. So they would never be on and off pulsed.' Used for arcade operator reliability, not technician maintenance.

  • ?

    design_innovation: Superman featured LED displays instead of plasma displays used by competitors, representing early adoption of low-voltage LED technology in pinball

    high · George: 'it had the first LED displays instead of the plasma everyone else was using. So it had low voltage LED, which is, you know, sort of groundbreaking.'

  • ?

    restoration_signal: WPC flipper assemblies can be successfully retrofitted into Superman while maintaining period-appropriate appearance and appropriate power delivery

    high · Dave details successful WPC flipper conversion: 'it felt just right. It felt like a regular rebuilt Atari assembly that's new.' Recommends using Bally-style bats to maintain stock appearance.

  • ?

    product_concern: Atari Superman features metal-on-metal flipper bearing assemblies that round out and wear quickly, creating excessive slop; differs from Bally's superior metal-Teflon design

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.075

0:30
Hello everyone and welcome to episode 18 of the Classic Pinball Podcast. My name is George and I'm joined by my co-host Dave. Hello Dave. Hello George.
1:00
faster than a speeding bullet more powerful than a locomotive able to leap tall buildings at a single bound look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane superman from atari 1979 a game done by steve richie the artwork was a guy named george opperman and in looking him up it looks like he was the sole artist for all the atari games are you familiar with this i am not airborne avenger middle earth space riders superman which we're going to talk about today the atarians but missing was Roadrunner. The only game I'm familiar with is Middle Earth. With all that said,
2:01
let's start with how do the Atari games compare to the games we collect? The Stern and Bolly games from that era. Well, most of them were Generation 1, they call them. Board set and not too good.
2:19
Their flippers weren't your typical configuration. They were kind of like a set on the left and a set on the right, and you're kind of playing two different flippers, either that or the Middle Earth. One's down low, one's a little up high.
2:36
So it just makes, Atari just wanted to do something different, and they didn't want to follow convention with the other manufacturers, and they didn't even use the same distributors, not distributors, the people that made parts and that kind of thing. And I said, no, no, we got this. We're going to do it ourselves, try something different. Sometimes that can work. A lot of times it did not work for them. Steve Ritchie and he was he made Superman. That was, I think, one of his first games. It's not the first game. All right. So Steve Ritchie working for Atari, I believe his Superman was his first game. And he worked, I think, for a full year. he worked with people like Eugene Jarvis was around there as well that's the guy that did Robotron and he did all those cool games for Williams video games back in the day that y'all remember playing so a lot of people oh yeah they'll know at one point on one of my videos years ago and my pinball videos I put out there with the stuff I've restored I actually made a little Easter egg comment And I called him This was done by One of the contributors to this game was Famed, renowned person Designer Eugene Cookie Jarvis I called him Cookie Jarvis and no one calls him that But I decided to because I wanted to So Yeah, so Steve Ritchie He had a little problem with Atari management and I want to do things as his way. And actually, uh, he wound up leaving before Superman even came out. He went up going over to Williams and worked on flash his first game for them and actually got his way and got the background sound on flash. Um, and, and with flash, that's why those flash lamps that they use in flash. That's, that's where the flash lamps term came from. Those little flash lamps on flash. Not a game, not a game I'm familiar with, but yeah, Great game for its time, but I like Superman way better. Superman was a great game he did.

  • WPC flipper conversions work effectively in Superman while maintaining appropriate power balance

    medium confidence · Dave: 'it felt just right. It felt like a regular rebuilt Atari assembly that's new. So it was just powerful enough to make that, those long shots across the table'

  • Superman was Atari's final pinball machine, representing their 'swan song' before exiting the pinball market

    high confidence · George: 'Superman was their swan song. It was actually...they left in a high note, kind of.'

  • Eugene Jarvis contributed to Superman's development and worked alongside Steve Richie at Atari

    medium confidence · George: 'he worked with people like Eugene Jarvis was around there as well that's the guy that did Robotron'

    • @ N/A

  • “Steve Ritchie and Eugene Jarvis were at a seminar one time and I listened to them talk about that stuff and how they had to fight with management about these dumb ideas the management wanted to put out there.”

    Dave @ N/A — Documents internal conflict at Atari between design talent and management, contributing to the company's exit

  • “I found a good reason why you want to put LEDs in this game, which usually that's a no-go for me...they blink like crazy because they have this warming circuit on.”

    Dave @ N/A — Technical observation about Superman's unique electrical characteristics and implications for LED retrofits

  • “I'm going to make three good games. I'm going to have one for me.”

    Dave @ N/A — Reveals Dave's personal investment in Superman restoration and his passion for the machine

    • Atari
    company
    Williams Electronicscompany
    Ballycompany
    Sterncompany
    Gottliebcompany
    Supermangame
    Flashgame
    Roadrunnergame
    Airborne Avengergame
    Middle Earthgame
    Neutron Stargame
    Alien Pokergame
    Firepowergame
    Cometproduct
    WPCproduct
    Pinsideorganization

    high · Dave: 'the metal to metal contact it was this thing going up and down like a couple thousand times or ten thousand times whatever just rounded it all out so there's tons of slop and looseness'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Atari used proprietary and non-standard parts, requiring specialized knowledge and custom toolsets for repair; differs significantly from Bally/Stern standardization

    high · Dave: 'They didn't use the same transistors for solenoids...They kind of changed that a little bit. So you have to have a whole new set of stuff in your toolbox to work on the Atari stuff.'

  • $

    market_signal: Atari Superman parts command significant price premiums ($90 start button, $40 coils vs. $15-20 for Bally/Stern); John's Jukes acts as primary distributor with limited inventory

    high · Dave: 'for the start button on the game on the front of the cabinet you're gonna have to cough up 90 bucks...a typical coil like for williams or bally you know...20 bucks max...on atari stuff you're gonna pay about 40 bucks'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community discussion on Pinside regarding potential modern Superman pinball remake by contemporary manufacturer

    low · George: 'there was some chatter on pin side i believe about making another superman game um i don't know where it went to but there was interest in having it done'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Superman represented Atari's final pinball machine before exiting the market; company's unconventional design philosophy and management conflicts with design talent contributed to departure

    high · George: 'Superman was their swan song.' Dave: 'Well, look who's, I guess, still standing, and look who has gone to the wayside.' Discussion of management rejecting Richie and Jarvis's design input.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Superman's stay-alive circuit and LED display represent deliberate design choices prioritizing arcade operator reliability over reducing technician maintenance burden

    high · Dave explains: 'they probably knew the arcade owners back in the day didn't change their bulbs...we want our game to stand out. It's always working...we don't trust the technicians back in the day to fix the stuff.'

  • ?

    restoration_signal: Superman's power draw operates near maximum capacity of 10-amp fuse, requiring careful bulb wattage selection (47W vs. 44W) and potential LED/stay-alive circuit modifications for stable operation

    high · Dave discovers: 'it was pulling like 11.5 amps on a 10 amp fuse...47 so it's like okay well i don't like 47s but i can see why...this thing runs right on the edge of 10 amps it's pulling a lot'

    • 4:48
    And there's actually the configuration of the flippers was how it's supposed to be. It's a wide body. It's wider than any other pinball machine manufacturer made at that point, wider than Paragon and Big Game and so forth, Bally and Stern respectively.
    5:03
    What else did he do on that game? What about the boards and the flippers and the mechs in the game? How do they compare to, again, the games that we collect? Not good. Not too good. When I came... So far, you've given me nothing other than playability and Steve Ritchie as a positive element to this game. It's a fun game, but I had a buddy, John, over, who's an electrical engineer, and he was looking at the game we were playing at playtesting the other night.
    5:41
    And, you know, John Day. And he was playing it, loved the game. But I just could tell, you know, the mechanisms weren't quite the same as your typical Bally.
    5:53
    You might call it innovative. I'm not sure I would call it that. Well, let's see. On every other Atari game, I would say you're correct. They put the scores in strange places, and the back box had no boards in it. It was just like a light bulb box except for Superman Superman it was Steve Ritchie influence to do it the right way like the normal convention of everybody else And he put the scores in the back box like they supposed to be and the boards are in the back box like they supposed to be So it was actually a real pinball head like you're supposed to have. So it had nice, and also it had the first LED displays instead of the plasma everyone else was using. So it had low voltage LED, which is, you know, sort of groundbreaking. Very few manufacturers did that, and definitely not your usual Ballystern people. Oh, no. Well, they've come out with it since, but how many volts are on the standard volume? Oh, like 190 volts. Enough to give you a permanent. Yeah, enough to get you a little dog bite feel. Oh, that's what you call it? Yeah. Okay. nothing that's going to kill you because it's I think low amperage but get your attention the other stuff the board said in them the generation 2 which is very few games I think Superman was like the only game that had that and then generation 3 was Roadrunner that's a whole other thing that's a great game if you can find that they only made two maybe one more prototype left might be two and a half games like that made that's a fun game but the Superman game the The boards actually were pretty good on it, but they did a different thing. They didn't kind of do what everyone else did. They didn't use the same transistors for solenoids, the same transistors for lights. They kind of changed that a little bit. So you have to have a whole new set of stuff in your toolbox to work on the Atari stuff. The mechanisms were just not built that well. other manufacturers were using instead of metal on metal for assemblies they like ballet would use metal and it'd be a teflon pushing in between that the two so it would last forever built way beyond you know that you know what it's supposed to go and uh so looking at the um the drop target assembly on superman the one i'm working on now i was wondering why the drop targets wouldn't always they'd come up sometimes sometimes like two would come up sometimes not the whole thing would come up and it's like i'm all like 60 hours into this thing i'm almost done it just you know just dogging me different little things that little bugs would come up and then i looked at it's like oh that's why that it's all rounded out the the metal uh metal to metal contact it was this thing going up and down like a couple thousand times or ten thousand times whatever just rounded it all out so there's tons of slop and looseness so when you say rounded it out rounded what out the lifting plates there's a lifting plate that the solenoid hits and it pulls Oh, okay. No, I'm familiar with it. There's a lot of different pieces there. I'm thinking about Bali. Right, that's not one piece that wears. But I understand the frustration. It sounds like this game is a restorer's friend. Because you've had several of them. oh yeah no i've had uh i think i've restored two or three before this one this is my third or fourth one and then i well i've played another one at your house about 16 days ago it seems like forever i saw the game that you're working on time goes by way too fast i actually just put the superman videos out on my uh on one of my channels to show my customer the progress so far because uh He's been waiting quite a while for it, about a year for this one.
    9:58
    Well, you're busy, and I'm sure he understands that. Oh, yeah. Plus, on top of that, I had to source some parts. They're difficult to find for it.
    10:07
    I was going to ask you about that as well, and you answered my question. That's not surprising, although they did make 5,000 of these. That's a pretty good run. It is. It might not even be the right number. It might be more than that. we don't really know um i know they say estimate on that or they say actual it's sparse there's no other numbers for any of their other games so i think it was an estimate or you know a production they were looking to produce that many whatever it was it sounds like there are quite a few of them out there but it sounds like you're hunting for parts to keep these things running i'm guessing nobody has done any kind of uh reproduction parts through this game given the no and the only guy that has a bunch of the stuff and he's up in canada john's jukes and uh you'll pay something like just for the start button on the game on the front of the cabinet you're gonna have to cough up 90 bucks for a start button oh i'm serious yeah and a typical coil well he's a distributor a b he was probably smart and put a couple of them away and is breaking them apart as time goes on the game that would sell probably sells for a lot more when you uh break it down for parts typical coil like for williams or bally you know pinball resource whatever you're going to pay oh i don't know 15 bucks maybe 20 bucks max for a coil on atari stuff you're gonna pay about 40 bucks for a coil if you need one oh man so you so that leads me to my next question do you think if they were to produce this game today and when i say they you know some manufacturer were to produce this game today do you think it would sell yeah i think would sell yeah in fact there was some chatter on pin side i believe about making another superman game um i don't know where it went to but there was interest in having it done because it is a great little table or a big table depending on your look at it Do you think it would be remade under an entirely different play field and a totally different game?
    12:21
    Yeah, I don't know. You never know with these guys. I mean look at Sea Witch made into the Beatles They probably or the old Kiss Valley to the new Stern Kiss They probably do something like that that keeps some elements but kind of go modernize it. Maybe put a ramp thing on there. Maybe some kind of bash toy. I don't know. Do you think it would be a Steve Ritchie game? It could be a Steve Ritchie. Steve Ritchie should actually do it. That would be kind of, yeah, that would be nice. That would be a good thing for him to do. they should actually tap into that if they haven't already.
    13:00
    Well, again, doing my homework beforehand, his last couple games, I don't know about Black Knight, but people seem to like the Star Wars, which I had a chance to play when I was out in Texas. So it's an okay game. I have a different opinion about that game when I first played it. It's okay. And then everybody seems to love his Star Trek. so he's got some hits recently as well so I'm guessing he does if you hear that Steve Ritchie's name is on something people are going to assume it's good before they assume it's bad they're going to give him benefit of the doubt because he is a good clout no he's got a follow he definitely does anything else that you'd like to talk about regarding Superman yes with flipper assemblies for this thing. They're always worn out. They're always weak. If you find one in an arcade or even in someone's collection, typically, if they've got original parts in it, they're just weak and you can barely make the shot up to the top on both spinners. Sometimes you can't make it at all.
    14:10
    In this mine that I was working on, it was all bastardized and missing. The coil stop was missing and the coil was burnt. and it's like, you know, I'm going to do a little research on it and other people said, hey, WPC mechs are great for this and it'll work and the coil is just about the right homage for it and, you know, I'm going to go with that. I have some, I bought a bunch of those complete assemblies in the past to have them for games like Alien Poker, Conversion I want to do and maybe a Firepower down the road that I have and do it to that. So, you know what, I got a couple. Let's throw them in here. put them in and like, wow, they work great. And actually, and it wasn't so super powerful. I thought it was going to be breaking drop targets. So it was going to be way too powerful. But it actually wound up being, it felt just right. It felt like a regular rebuilt Atari assembly that's new. So it was just powerful enough to make that, those long shots across the table up top, but not so much that you're going to hit every time and you're going to whip it up there. It just makes everything just right. And I even have the back all the way jacked up in the back to make it as fast as possible on this game. And, yeah, it plays well with them. I even put some people with the WPC mix, they'll actually put Williams bats in it. But I don't like that look. I just say it looks like, okay, it's a Williams game. It's an Atari game, and Atari used the Bally and Stern fatter bats. So I put the Bally bats in this game, and it looks stock. So the game looks stock and it plays like a nice new, you know, out of the box Atari Superman, like it should. Which is my goal. This sounds like something John Day's involved in. Did he make this suggestion or was this something that you saw on your own? Say that again, or are you breaking up?
    16:06
    I said, did you see, does John Day have a hand in this? It sounds like this is right in his wheelhouse. Oh, when John – so when I was first considering doing this, I actually took a picture of the old mech and the new WPC mech side to side on the table, on the rear side of the play field. And I said, hey, what do you think? I'm going to be going for it. He goes, awesome. He says, welcome to the WPC conversion club because he did that to his flash board, which I – No, no, that's the reason I'm asking you. I figured he would love that. Oh, yeah, he loved it. He loved the idea. For me, I think it works perfect for Superman, but I like the Mata Hari-style flipper conversions for any 81 Bally instead of going WPC. For me, because it feels more like a Bally. When you put WPC next and these Bally games, I just think they're too strong of flippers. It just feels like they're turbocharged a little too much.
    17:15
    But to each his own. Everybody can do their own thing. But from my personal taste, I'll do where it makes sense, but I'm not going to do it across the board for everything. For the longest time, people said, oh, Superman, one of the few games you can not put LEDs into.
    17:30
    And I found a good reason why you want to put LEDs in this game, which usually that's a no-go for me. Usually I'm Mr. Filament and Incandescent Lighting, which I like for these older games. But I have been broadening my horizons in the LED universe a little bit with Comet's retro warms. They actually look pretty darn good, especially in the modern Ramper. They look pretty darn good. I've been doing those a lot to save on burning connectors and that kind of stuff. But in old-school games like Superman, nope, can't do it. It says that they – and I tried it. And it's like, yep, they blink like crazy because they have this warming circuit on. So it was a great design feature that maybe Steve Richie put in there, someone put in there from one of the designers, that the lights would last a good long time in Superman because there would always be a little bit of current on them. They'd always be kind of warm. So they would never be on and off pulsed. That's what stresses out an incandescent bulb.
    18:28
    Hold on a second. You dropped out. I'm guessing you did. Yeah, there we go. Where was I? Yeah, so it's stressing the filament. Yes, so typically in a regular game like a Bally or Stern, they turn off and on, you know when you you know whatever off and on On the Atari they have a warming circuit there It called the stay alive circuit that there a little bit of current flowing in these incandescent bulbs And so it's never quite at zero. It's always, you know, it's not zero one. It's like, you know, a couple millivolts or whatever. So it doesn't stress the filament out and lights last a lot longer that way. So it's good from a technician standpoint and reliability standpoint. The bad thing is when you put an LED in there, the LED always seems to, it's sort of on a little bit. So it's kind of flickering. It's not really on. When it's on, it's on. But when it's off, it's sort of flickering and doing some weird stuff. And it's not behaving like it should. So it's really, you can't do it on the Superman. And I say, I really need to do that because I started, when I put all 44s in the game, which makes it for a brighter game, I started blowing the 10 amp GI fuse, a slow blow. after like about 10 minutes of sitting there because warming up i felt it was like hot it's like why is this hot then i looked in the manual this must be all 47 so 47s run a little bit lower oh wow yeah that's how much they're you know so 47 so it's like okay well i don't like 47s but i can see why so this thing runs right on the edge of 10 amps it's pulling a lot so i actually put an ammeter i had john day over looking at it trying to figure this out so i put an ammeter across that let's see what we got it's like yep it was pulling like 11.5 amps on a 10 amp fuse no wonder it was blowing it's like okay so wow wow they they engineered that with very little yeah close close tolerance or you know too close that's that's wow so so then the uh okay well i could put all 47s in here but i really want to put leds and some of the g you know i was thinking like i can put some of these warms in here instead and then i found out a little more research there's a little stay alive switch in the game you can turn that off to have it not stay alive when you do that leds work fine because now it's on or off no warming circuit involved so now you can make your superman with leds so it sounds like they had the op in mind when they put that in there so somebody wasn't changing bulbs all the time even though most arcades didn't change the bulb. Exactly.
    21:06
    Basically, what that means, they probably knew the arcade owners back in the day didn't change their bulbs out, let the bulbs go dark and whatever and not work. They said, well, we want our game to stand out. It's always working. The bulbs always work, and our game always works great because we don't trust the technicians back in the day to fix the stuff. Ours will always be working. It's a reliability thing. Our game will stand out amongst its peers next to it. which was smart.
    21:37
    Makes sense. It sounds like some good things came out of Atari when Steve Ritchie joined. Yeah, he definitely had some. It doesn't sound like he lasted a long time. No, he couldn't. No, they didn't like his genius. I don't think they didn't like his, I don't know. He was too, he was ahead of his time for them. He was a little, you know, although they were doing some weird stuff and being innovative, but they were going innovative the wrong way. They were doing some weird stuff that like, Why are you reinventing the wheel over here when that's already been kind of solved and you're trying to do something different, but especially rotary flippers. Rotary flippers were before Superman on Atarians and Time 2000 and all these other Atari games before Superman, and they just didn't work well. It was just not good.
    22:23
    Steve Ritchie and Eugene Jarvis were at a seminar one time and I listened to them talk about that stuff and how they had to fight with management about these dumb ideas the management wanted to put out there. And they said, okay, well, we're going to be out of here. And they were. Well, look who's, I guess, still standing, and look who has gone to the wayside. Atari was, I'm guessing, pretty much done after that as far as – They were. Superman was their swan song. It was actually – they left in a high note, kind of. Then, again, System 3, they had Roadrunner, but they didn't get the um they didn't get a license for it they just made it it's like oh whoops we need a license okay well i guess we're not going to make that then so they made two of them and that was it and uh again fun game steve didn't do it and i think the flippers are not really lined up like they're supposed to be they're a little bit off center typically like middle earth i think they're like a little bit like that so not really steve was the only only one that made it the correct flipper setup where they're supposed to be and in alignment the only other game they made like that was Neutron Star they only made one of those prototype and it was a regular sized pinball machine like 8-Ball Deluxe regular standard sized pinball machine that was actually a fun game but I've only played the one in existence in California about 10 years ago their grounds on the board they had a ground strap on all the boards that they did and a lot of people on Gottliebs later on had to run ground straps kind of like Atari did. Bally and Stern of the day, they had the whole back plane of the inside of the back box was one big ground plane that they would tack to with their screws.
    24:11
    But Atari did it different. And they actually did a pretty good job doing it. And Gottlieb learned later on that they should have done it that way. And people, you know, did that. Other than that, yeah, Superman was their best game they made. And I have three of them. at this point. Well, you know, you're going to have at least one good game out of three, but I'm sure. I'm going to make three good games. I'm going to have one for me. I'm sure. I'm sure if there's anybody who will do it.
    24:57
    Yeah.