thanks for tuning in to loser kid pinball podcast this is episode 119 i am josh roop with me my co captain as always scott larson and scott it is expo is right around the corner there's rumors of new games being revealed if you want these games who are you going to call well i'm going to call Zach and Nicole mini just like I did when I ordered my pinball alley sign nice yes certain pop bumper sign yes so I ordered both of those and I'm super excited to get them downstairs I actually have wanted I I wanted the old version of the the pinball alley sign this one's even cooler this one is cool and this one actually is open to the fans because before you had to be a dealer to get the pinball alley sign yep so and actually that old pinball alley sign was like $3,000. Well, and this is 2000 and honestly, one of the toppers that have gone down in price. If it's, if you want a five foot topper, I'm like, do you want a Mando topper? Do you want the stern alley pinball sign? I would say the sun looks really cool. Okay. I will say the stern one, the, the Mando one's still pretty cool. I know that's how cool the sign is. Yes, absolutely. This it's huge. So, yep. I would contact Zach and Nicole many of flipping out pinball. They're always good. Good to hook you up. I agree. So, Scott, it's been kind of – it's been a really good two weeks. We just did the – we were coming off the Bragg Brothers interview. Right. Which had an amazing response. Okay. First off, they came huge. Yes. They were engaging. They were really easy to talk to. And so any credit we get goes with having excellent guests. So I appreciate them coming on and taking the human side. I don't know if – I read this to you. I don't know if Roger will be mad at me. Oh, go ahead. it's hilarious let me pull up an email that we got from roger because roger didn't know this was happening and i actually want to get roger back on definitely because now that we've both had time to see the movie a few times it would be interesting to dissect it with him says scott josh meredith and austin just spent a little over an hour being entertained by you all smiles on my faces and a wonderful surprise thank you thankfully one of the highlight highlighted items in this week in pinball because why wouldn't my son josh ever let me know that something was going to be aired i i just love i just love the jab right at josh i'm glad it's not just us it's his dad too you know what josh is actually one of the funniest guys i've ever met and he he's really good at at returning the jab so i i appreciate that that was that that put a huge smile on my face anyways just want to send a shout out take care meet the very much older Mr. Sharp yes it was great together I mean we've received more feedback on this episode than probably for a while yeah besides the Kerry Hardy episode which we got a lot of feedback on as well but it was a lot not a single positive or not a single negative one star but there was people that reached out and said they don't typically like the interview styles because they feel they're too cliche and they felt like this was very just very raw and smooth and just they were impressed with how we were able to get the directors just like just talking with friends right they they were again they were they were great interviewees so yes we feel very honored that they came on and amazing insight to the movie which yes which was a great it's a great companion because a lot of times when you watch a movie you're not really sure what you're gonna get yeah and i would say everybody in pinball is still a little gun shy on anything that shines light on the hobby just because i mean come on a special one lit it it highlighted the oddities in the hobby to and that's best to put it kindly i think it's free on it's free on something right now because i went back through it yeah and you're right it does kind of make us look like it well it's it seems like it's making a making any fan look foolish and kind of yeah if you have if you have editorial control then that seems a very vindictive thing to do when you're interviewing someone sincerely and then you portray them in a negative light i don't know if it's necessarily that I can see it poorly but it almost is like you got the most oddballs not most oddballs let me apologize you you got some more of the unique personalities uh when we've had so many more enter into the hobby as of late I mean this was recorded in 2009 this is before ACDC this is before the right resurgence and even Steve Ritchie after that movie was brought out he kind of was you know everyone felt like pinball was in a decline like it was not pin pinball was on life support yeah and it had a d it had a do not resuscitate label on it yes and it really was hurting there was some glimpses you've got spider-man in that era you've got was iron man around that time yeah so i okay so i actually did pull this up right before so if you look at okay let's just say past lord of the rings okay so i would say lord of the rings was definitely a high point definitely in 2000s right okay so how many of these do you want lord of the rings followed by ripley's believe it or not it's actually it's sleeper that one is good i'm not gonna lie okay but you don't want to own it i'm sorry you don't well for the price It's maybe not the price that's commanding now, but maybe two years ago. Yeah. Elvis, Sopranos, Grand Prix, NASCAR, World Poker Tour, Pirates of the Caribbean, which is good. I own that one. It's good. Yeah. Dale Jr., Family Guy, Spider-Man. Owned that one. Wheel of Fortune, Indiana Jones, Batman the Dark Knight, Shrek, CSI, 24, NBA, Big Buck Hunter Pro, and then Iron Man is in 2010. Okay. So we're right there at the cost. But it's still pre-ACDC. I would really say ACDC was the turning point. Well, ACDC was actually the turning point, and we'll get to that later. Because after Iron Man, you have Avatar, Rolling Stones. Then you start the baby turn with Tron. Yeah, yep. And then Transformers, and then you really jump back onto the scene with ACDC. so it it was it it certainly was a business in crisis a hobby in crisis it really was if you want to check out the movie yourself is on tubi t-u-b-i you can check it out for free no extra skin off your nose give us your opinion because i do like i said it i think the problem was is like there at the beginning it even starts going through these people they're like well i own 50 machines and the ones like i own 200 machines and then there's like at one point guys like i own 1900 machines and they're all kind of just like in a garage stacked up on top of each other right and i mean like i said there there's some highs and lows in that movie it's just it's a very unique look at pinball and it's funny because i was talking to some higher-ups in the industry and i said hey you know someone should do an updated documentary because we're special when lit ended. It showed the graveyard. It was the dead pins in some sort of field, like forest. It was super depressing. Their recommendation was don't do it. Well, because I think they got burned. I'm sorry, you did. They they and OK, we've all said it before that you and I have said the great thing about pinball is it is a place for everybody. Yeah. You know, regardless of religion, regardless of politics, regardless of gender orientation, color, et cetera. Like this is something that we can all just say, hey, we are different. Let's play pinball. And it's a very chill hobby for the most part, too. For the most part. There are some drama trolls. Yeah, some flare-ups here and there. But for the most part, I would say people are very welcoming. Yeah, I agree. So I'm sad that the most positive – now, it's been years since I've seen the show, but the most positive part was I believe it's the Orange County Pinball where it talked about they basically converted to a private collection. they had leaked, that was a very positive part because it showed people who were passionate and I'm a little weird. I'm sure if they interviewed me, I'd come off as very bizarre. It did show a genuine enthusiasm for it. Anyway, I think actually the Roger Sharp movie is the best thing they could do. More than a documentary on how involved got back i agree the man who saved pinball is a fantastic film we we re-watched it right before having the black brothers on if you have not watched it what are you doing it's on amazon it's on voodoo go rent it it's on hulu right now for free if you've got a subscription to hulu go watch it it is amazing truly is yep well i got a list of stuff let's get going on it I know it's not on my list, but I just remembered about two weeks ago, a week ago, you know, I went out to see a concert, went to go see New Found Glory and All-American Rejects, Motion City Soundtrack and the Get Up Kids. I had very little time, so I had 30 minutes before the concert. I stopped by, found a Venom Pro, played it. I got to tell you, this game is like the epitome of a 90s Williams game. Okay. Maybe not. it might be minus the mechs the premium might be more that way when i say epitome in 90s game it's family out the rules are pretty much like stack the stuff and do the one thing like reminds me of monster bash where you follow the column yeah like you you try to line up all the monsters and then you set them all off at one time ending on frankenstein so you can just destroy the game right and i feel like fandom's very much that way as well you do the things you stall out of multiball you can actually hold off on your multiball more balls you got the more your your score goes up really fun game my overall consensus right now it's not a game i'd want in my collection and maybe it's because it's got safe progress so it's more convincing to go out onto location play it on location and i can store my progress and i'm not spending money on a machine or moving something out of my collection that I'm not ready to leave yet. Plus, the code's still early. I kind of want to see what Dwight does. It seems like if you've never owned a Dwight game, you have to wait. Not only that, it kind of seems like the code shifts. It's almost an entirely different game from where it begins to where it ends. It can have a big reboot in the middle. The skeleton stays the same, but the muscles get beefed up. We go from Skarny to Dubuff. It really is a fun game like great on you eddie great on you dwight and everyone in the team that did venom i i feel bad because i feel like this game just has stalled out right and we've only been it's only been out for a month and i really think people should go out give it a chance you're only spending a couple bucks you do your two for three whatever it is go play this game get an opinion of it i enjoyed it i like i said i still don't think it's for my collection but not every game is so i i still would be i would be interested i would be more interested if there were premiums on location so that that's the challenge is that i the game is significantly different between the pro and the premium because the ball paths change yeah you have iron maiden behind you Iron Maiden between Pro and Premium, it's pretty much the same layout. Yeah. Even you could argue Avengers Infinity Quest is pretty much the same game except for the Subway and the Captain Marvel shot. But everything else is pretty much there. You're not going to get the different ball paths on the Pro. Correct. It is what it is. And so that's why I would really still like to play a premium to fully assess the game. However, this may be the first game that actually thrives on location in that people are able to save their progress because no other game does that right now. Yeah. So this is a risk. We've talked about it. This is a risk for Stern. It's a different layout. It's a more simple layout, I mean. But it does have that option that people may want that second coin drop. Yeah. I agree. Speaking of Eddie Games, Stranger Things was just announced that they vaulted on Tuesday. Yeah. It doesn't seem like there's much difference from the original to what they have now. Right. Well, there is a difference between the original and this one. What's that? It's $2,000 more. That is true. So. Well, even the pro. What did the pro come out at? I don't remember, but it was. Keep going. But do you think, obviously, they're trying to meet a demand, right? Like we saw during COVID how much of demand there was for this game. Do you think it cooled off too much? Do you think it was still smart to remake this? Yes, it was smart to remake it. It takes very limited resources. If they're able to renew the license, they're able to spit some out. How long did they spit out Star Trek? It was like every year they're like, hey, add new Star Trek's coming out. So they can kick out 200, 300 with Stranger Things. Who knows? How many do you think they're going to make? A thousand? How many? Like there's maybe. But if they have the parts and they just need to manufacture those, they can put it online to fill a need. And we have talked to them before about in the Williams days. It was like, hey, just run it until it dies and then you swap it. And that's pretty much the run. Stern's current model is that you can plug it back in if the demand's there. And the demand was obviously there. Yeah. Was there enough demand to warrant how many they're making? I don't know. They're also, this does cost basically almost $2,000 more. Yes. And you still have to buy the UV kit and install it. Yes. I, I, I, I would be more interested if the game came in a premium with the UV kit installed. Just because that it's also $2,000 and you add the $300 for that, that pushes it close to $10,000. Is it a $10,000 game? Maybe. Maybe for some. I still hold to the fact that I have Attack from Mars and that's not going anywhere because my kids won't let me so I'm not going to have both of those in my collection but there are people who really love Stranger Things and they want that theme so when I originally released the Pro it was $6,100 which now it's $7,000 so $900 isn't a... not too much you can really chalk that up to inflation Inflation. Yeah, that's inflation. I mean, everything else is inflated right now. When did this originally drop? December 30th, 2019 is when the original. Four years ago. Yeah. Four years ago. Okay, premium, $7,700 versus now it's $9,700. So you're right. It is $2,000 difference. It's two grand. Yeah. And a limited edition, $9,100. Mm-hmm. Wow. And if it was nowadays, it'd be $13,000, which honestly, anyone will tell you the most moneymaker is the limited edition. well the most margin for them sorry yes most margin yes yes but if you really take the premium you take the uh projector out of it and the kinetic telekinetic magnet wait you mean if you take the pro what what i'm saying if you took the premium and you took that stuff out you have the pro i mean there's there's really not much difference so it's funny because don't get me know i love the projector i think the projector is amazing i'm a big fan of pinball 2000 it heralds back to that for me i feel like they were that brian and he was trying to make the game he never was able to when they when pinball 2000 came out probably but i just at this point i had what i say 6100 versus 77 1600 difference i guess really it's only a 400 difference when it when it first came out. I still just don't know if it's worth $2,000 difference now. I think it is to the right person. And there are still people who connect with this theme. I would say the theme has cooled off a little bit. I still have not seen stranger things So I know I an outlier but that you know that i i it selling i i would say it selling well enough yes i think there wasn enough for location and that's where they're going yeah and and yes it kills on location oh yeah absolutely kills on location i i think honestly so while i waited for venom i had i stood in line and i played a stranger things because no one was playing it it is a really good game yeah it's attack from mars-esque i will give it that i do the enjoy the ramp i do enjoy i love the achievements now attached to it before that didn't have that right released in 2019. Yeah, it was not Insider Connected. But if you drop the, I don't know what it's called, the shield, the ramp, whatever it is, and you see the Demogorgon, and you kill it first shot, which you get right in the hole instead of hitting it on its lips or whatever it is. Can you fix it so you can get it in the hole? Yeah, I was able to. Okay, because that was one of the huge problems with the original is that you would get brick after brick. Yeah, so I got it, And it gives you an achievement called hole in one. And so I thought that was pretty comical. I enjoyed that. I still don't understand the little launch thing on the left. Similar to the catapult in Minerva Madness, but instead of coming all the way around and wrapping back to you, this shoots at the drop targets. And I don't know if it's pretty much just like, oh, I ricocheted in there and this is my consequence. I can't remember if there's really any purpose to get into that hole versus... Just pure consequence of being in there. Other than that, I thought it was a good game. It's very, very fast. I don't know if I'd want Stranger Things over Venom. I probably would want Stranger Things over Venom in my collection. Okay. And this is the problem. You have two Eddie games that came out within a month of each other. One is a proven re-release. One of them is a new concept. So it's a little risky. Yep. But maybe Stern is playing the long game, and Venom is a test case. They may see how it does. And even if they have to pivot with the initial production, if the license can't be that expensive, they could probably renew it and keep making that for a while. Well, do you want to know a dirty little secret if you've never noticed this? Shh. So when a designer or a coder – sorry, it's more of the coder than it is the designer. but when the coder slash designer is making their new game they will take the base of their last game and they'll shift stuff around they'll improve upon it if you remember when james bond came out last year it was very early it was like 0.6 code right but it was Lonnie D. Ropp who was doing the code on that and the last thing he had done was stranger things it still had the Stranger Things text. Yeah, it did. And that was unfortunate. So my point being is when you're getting a Godzilla, you're essentially getting Avengers, Jurassic Park, and Iron Maiden. The code's all there for that, but it's being shifted around. It's being improved upon. It's being molded into a new pop, right? The scaffolding's there, and they're just living walls. Correct. Correct. So Venom, where I'm going with this, sorry. Venom, I think, is always going to be now a Dwight thing where it has experience points built into the code. I could be wrong. They could be like, no, we're never doing that again. I think they will. That drives people to location and makes people say, hey, I don't have to start from scratch every time. You get that with modern gamers. That's what they're trying to go after, right? Yep. You're getting at the people who want to build the experience. So they put all this into Venom. So now that system has been built. It will move on to the next one. I think they're preparing, too, because Spike 3 is supposed to be coming out sooner rather than later. So it'll be interesting to see how that advances code and depth as well. These games are insanely deep. Yep. Anywho, so I guess what's your overall verdict of Stranger Things? I don't know if it – I don't think it cannibalizes off Venom sales. So it's not really a competitor to Venom. If you're going to be interested in Stranger Things, then absolutely pick this up. That's pretty much the going rate of games. And it may be unfair to say, well, it's $2,000 more, but it's the same game. because we have four years of inflation and some crazy things that happen in the market. So that is, even though it's true, that's part of the scheme of pinball is that you're going to have pay increases. It's the same thing. Same with cars, right? Same with cars. Heck, even look at Little Caesars. It's the first time they've had a price increase in the last 20 some odd years, and it was a 50% markup. I mean, it was not cheap by any means. I mean, it was 40%. I mean, it went from $5 to $7 or $7.50. It might be up to $8 now, isn't it? I can't remember. I don't really. The only Little Caesars version I like is the Detroit style, which is basically the old deep dish square version. That's the only one I like. They take their Italian cheese bread and put some pepperonis on top. Yep. All right. Let's move on. We've got Pinball Expo coming up. I don't know if we'll record before the next Expo. Maybe. Yeah. Because we're literally two weeks from yesterday is when the stuff will start. So things we're looking forward to, I guess you'll be home. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm working. Party pooper. It'll be interesting. I'll definitely be talking to Josh throughout the event, and Josh will have the 3.0 hats. Yep. I just put the order in for those on Monday. Awesome. them they promised me they would have them all by next friday and we had quite the response to those holy crap and they're great hats so yes i'm wearing one right now so well we gave the option of the new 3.0s and the existing 2.0s yeah so we we had a handful of the the new whites the snapback holy crap uh yeah a lot of people like those yes it was great i think we end up go 15 snapbacks as I think when I ended up ordering. That was just the black, not including the white. It was pretty crazy response on that. Anywho, we have four reveals coming out here at Expo. We've got people that have confirmed. The Mystery Company is releasing Labyrinth. Do you think this is a good choice for a pinball theme? Okay. I saw Labyrinth last year after never having seen Labyrinth before and I could not understand why people like this movie. It's a terrible movie. Legit terrible. It doesn't make any sense. If they're totally tapping into that nostalgia thing, go ahead. It has zero connection to me. What about you, Josh? Honestly, I don't know if it's sacrilegious or not, but I've never seen Labyrinth. It's a classic for some. It's a classic for my age group. It's one of those things. I would put it in the Goonies category that for some reason so many people connected with it. Not sure that the same group is going to buy Labyrinth because I don't think – it's not like one of those things where it's like, hey, it's Mario. and the younger generation connects with it. I guarantee my kids watch Labyrinth, they're just like, this is kind of weird. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it was kind of weird. Oddly, though, like Dark Crystal is getting a resurgence and has its own new series on Netflix. Well, it did, but it only lasted one season. Oh, okay. Well, Netflix has been killing everything. It was actually – I thought it was good. I didn't think it was great. I thought it was good, but super expensive to make, the Dark Crystal. So they were getting really into the lore of the Gelflings and the clans and how the Skeksis were basically esteemed as a prophet figure, but they were unknowingly very dark. Yeah. So I thought it was going into a very interesting realm, but it obviously didn't last long enough for them to decide they want to renew it. So overall – so your thought is this may or may not hit or miss. It just depends on how it looks. Yeah, I don't have a good feel. It's not for me. So I'll be curious to see other people. And let us know. Let us know if Labyrinth is one of your dream themes. I don't hear it ever as being floated before, though. Yeah. There's those wish list of rumors. Like, I wish this game would be made. And I don't remember Labyrinth being high on that list. I think it is smart, though, coming out of the gate with a license. You have to. I'm sorry, you have to. If there's anything that Data East slash Stern proved is that licensing sells games. Yep, 100%. Okay, so the next release that's coming to Expo is Elements by Pinball Adventures. What are your thoughts on this one, Scott? I guess I'll see what the demand will be. I would say Punny Factory had a mixed release, to be fair. There were some problems with manufacturing, but Spooky's America's Most Haunted wasn't. It was a first run option. It was learning how to cut your teeth in the pinball industry. And they've been able to build a company for themselves. So is it possible? Maybe. This seems to be like the art is very interesting. It looks like a 70s fantasy sci-fi vibe. And so if that's what you're looking for, it kind of borders on like a Dungeons and Dragons art vibe. Okay. So we'll see if that connects with audiences. what uh what are you thinking josh it's one of those games that i'm gonna have to play it to see what i think and i really don't have much interest in it besides yeah it it may be fun though i mean hot wheels was hot wheels was way more fun than i thought it was going to be yeah i'll agree with that yeah so that was that was a theme that i was like i don't know about this but it actually works well for for that game so we'll we'll see if this is able to do the same thing i agree well it'll be interesting to see what they can do but you are looking for niche collectors though just because unless you have 10 15 games you're probably not going to take a risk on this yeah next game a pinball machine for non-pinball people at a pinball convention home pin with their third game. Yeah. This guy is not easy to like. Yeah. He really has given the proverbial middle finger to pinball players. He's also given the middle finger to Americans. Yeah. So you're coming to Expo and showing a game in a pinball-centric expo in the United States of America where you have, by your own admission, you had bad experience with four customers? Yeah. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how it's received. because it's me it's like if i remember in the interview he said he wasn't going to sell to people in america anyway so i could be wrong i don't know and i'm hoping that people get second chances we'll see yeah none of his other choices have been something i'm interested in yeah so i doubt that he's going to find a lot of people buying it it seems like he's going off theme yep and it's on it's uh the equivalent of a zizzle he flat out admitted that codes were not our code was not that interesting for him yeah so you're making a game that that beeps and dings and you're supposed to drink it at a bar or sorry you're supposed to play it while drinking at a with your friends yeah so we'll we'll see that that is not going to fly well in a pinball players area because people are looking for code and they're looking for something to put in their house that they're not going to get bored of in a month yeah or bored of on the second ball yeah that's why stern indiana jones really isn't well received you can have an amazing thing but Yeah. I don't know. I guess I haven't seen the sales numbers on it. Me neither. It'll be interesting. I will look and see what is released, and I will anticipate you guys giving me a report to say how well it's played. Yep, I will play it and let you know. If I'm allowed to play it after I went off, he tends to hold grudges, And so it'll be interesting to see if I'll even, well, if he even knows who I am. Don't want that kid over here. Yeah, I doubt it. 2,500 is how many they produced of Stern, Ennead Jones, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see how it's received. It's more of an oddity. I know a lot of people who are Spinal Tap fans that even that theme was not enough to make them want to buy this game. Yeah, I agree. All right, and the fourth one, if it's true, JJP revealing Elton John. Sorry, Elton John is the rumor. But supposedly JJP is geared up and ready to show at Expo, which is less than eight months between Godfather and Elton John. That's pretty impressive. They've promised they're going to start pushing out of it every nine months. And so we're there. Yeah. And, okay, I think JJP makes – they make great games. Yeah. They – so Guns N' Roses is an amazing immersive experience. Toy Story, the biggest criticism I had for Toy Story was the price. yeah it seemed like an awesome 8500 game that was packaged in a 12 500 sales thing so that was that was my stumbling block on toy story however i think it's a fun game and i would own toy story right now for the right price yeah godfather is it's a it's a very specific theme for a very specific audience are you going to tap into the same audience with elton john because you are in that you know 70s nostalgia yeah so are you going to be able to capture enough people who are in their 60s who are interested in buying out buying elton john i think the thing too is is jb jjp does a great job with colorful flamboyant games i mean Wizard of Oz with the rainbow. I mean, Guns N' Roses felt very colorful. And I feel like concert machines are their niche. Because looking at Guns N' Roses... It'll look great. I guarantee it'll look great. Yeah. I'm really intrigued to see because Steve Ritchie's mostly known for fast play. Yeah, it doesn't seem to be the fit for him. He's more of a hard rock guy, not a 70s pop guy. Well, there was some heavier stuff that he produced, but still. Point being is. What, Elton John? Yeah. Okay. I'm thinking maybe Saturday Night's Alright for Fighting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. One song? Well, okay. It's great, but he's also known for, like, Daniel's song. But we're also talking about a man that his hits were 60s and 70s, right? Right. Am I going too early with 60s? Yeah. 70s was really his wheelhouse He still had some things in the 80s too Okay But 70s was really his his wheelhouse He still had some things in the 80s too Okay But 70s was really the uh his his era So you're looking at, it's 50 years later. So people who were in their 20s, so you're looking at 70 year olds. Skyline Pigeon, 69. Goodbye, let's see, Rocketman, 72. Yeah, we're looking at that. And there's some stuff in the 80s as well. Sure. I just don't look at this. Captain Fantastic is a 70s game. Yeah. I just don't look at these songs, though, and just think concert pin. And granted, I've never seen Elton John live. Elton John is really good. He's a really good – I've seen him live. He's a great player and a great entertainer. But he, like his songs, he is 70. so it's people in his age demographic who will likely be buying this pin however if it's done really well then it could be one of those old as new things yeah I'm most curious about this because it'll be interesting to see the supposition was that Steve was not able to make the games that he wanted because of the constraints on build of materials. Now, the rumor is everybody has the same build of materials, and so everybody uses those differently. So is that a designer issue, or is he just not know how to make something more cost effective? I felt Black Knight would have been a much better game if they were able to put something up on that upper play field other than the cannon. Yeah. Or the catapult, excuse me. I would have rather had pop bumpers, targets, whatever, on that upper play field and ditched the whole catapult thing. But who knows? Maybe a new company, new environment, Steve may pull a rabbit out of his hat. See, and I'm really intrigued by this because like you said, Steve has said time and time again in interview after interview, since his departure from Star, that he was hamstrung or handcuffed because of the bill of material. Let's talk his last three games really quick, just really quickly. Led Zeppelin, which in my opinion is just Star Trek, but crap, not crappier design, sorry. The shots are a little more tight, but findable, I guess. It's a more challenging shot selection, yes. Star Trek, I mean, it's wide open. You can hit those ramps. Led Zeppelin is not that easy. Correct. Black Knight Sword of Rage, which I really think is a good game. It felt like there was something missing, though. Yeah. Well, the Pro is actually better than the Premium because it plays better. but the you're if you're gonna do a release it's it would like to be doing a star wars sequel like without you know you're like hey we're making a sequel to empire strikes back but it's not going to have yoda or the force in it yeah kind of how it felt with an empty play field uh play field excuse me and i just didn't see the cost difference for the upper play field and grand the topper is one of the best toppers in pinball. Topper was awesome. I actually just sold my topper. My friend actually sold his Black Knight Ellie because he wanted a pro. He texted and said, hey, would you be willing to sell me the topper on the contingency that if you want it back when I sell it, then you can buy it. I said, sure. I really think the mech for that was cool. Overall, it fell flat. wise right star wars which is obviously going to sell no matter what you put in it uh they've proven that time and time again yeah but i still felt like this was another empty it did it just i was i wanted an le and once it was released i backed out it's one of the few games where i actually backed out after i saw it and i don't regret backing out game of thrones i would argue that's probably his last yeah Game of Thrones yeah it themes a big thing for me yeah and that's not my thing so I guess Star Wars was a hit in the regards that like it's a lot it was it was ever I still see it on location it's still yeah but Game of Thrones was really good and then before that you've got Star Trek then ACDC 24 Spider-Man World Poker Tour which was amazing it was a really good game elvis which was all right yeah terminator 3 which was really good i just looking for when he started at stern to terminator 3 it just feels like some of these games are revered to some of the best games ever made some of them i mean heck you we we account acdc for the revival of pinball okay yes acdc is an unqualified home run. Yes. Absolutely. Star Trek's amazing. It's a fun game. It really is. So you have ACDC, you have Star Trek. The other ones, I would say were more good efforts, but I wouldn't say a long-term owner. Yeah. So I guess overall, it's going to be interesting because Steve Ritchie has proved that he can make a good game. Like I said, those last three were a little rough, especially Led Zeppelin. I don't know. It's going to be interesting. Yeah. Especially with Elton John, I feel like it's a hurdle to get over. I'm not hearing anyone that's like, oh, Elton John is the game, right? Yeah, I don't know. I think you could pull it off. There's certainly a lot of catchy songs, and you don't have to have a rock band to do it. It could be, he has a lot of fast songs, and so it can still be done right. And not everything has to be like a, you know, it has to be a rock band. Yeah, true. It doesn't. I mean, Pink would be a great, I've said it before, Pink would be a great pinball machine. Yeah. Bruno Mars. Bruno Mars, yeah. I was listening to their Moans today. I'm like, why hasn't this ever been made? They're a band from the 60s slash 70s. Yeah, they – it seems like most people remember the Ramones for who they are and maybe what they represented to the punk scene. I'm not sure too many people are still listening to the Ramones though. I mean, Tyra, it's been like the last three Spider-Man movies. It's been Shazam. I mean, it's – I feel like there's still some relevance to Ramones, even the younger generation. You get tired of the Ramones like many people, not me, but many people felt like they got tired of Iron Maiden's music. Okay. Yeah. All right. So we have a couple minutes left, and we got hit up by Kinetesis. So Colin over there says that let's do a big collab. And what we're going to do right now is we're going to talk about our top five favorite current pinball machines. let's just do a quick synopsis because a lot of these games Scott and I kind of discussed this because it kind of leaves open some room we're going to try to aim for games from 2012 to now because that's current and kind of what we're playing most so I guess let's Scott do you want to start off with number 5 let's go 5 down to 1 wow I don't know if I could rank them all do you want me to go first then yeah go ahead okay i am gonna go in the number five spot teenage mutant ninja turtles uh i think it is a great throwback to 90s games okay mode based very straightforward shoot this do that okay i loved the music the the voice call outs were great there were some shortcomings that like the animation was a little rough but overall it was a game that i always was enjoying stepping up to i sadly sold mine but to get to godzilla so right but really i still think if you want a good butt kicking game it's ninja turtles and if you're into tournaments and you're in a tournament and there's a turtles in there and you know how to play it yeah you do have the advantage i know a lot of people steer away from it last tournament i played with turtles in it i always went to it and I kicked butt. So if you can learn a turtles, it's definitely to the advantage to you. So what's your Scott? What's your number five? Number five. I am going to say looking over. Okay. This one's going to be a little bit of a throw back from 2012 on. Okay. I'm still going to put Metallica in there. Metallica is, it's a great game. And it moved a ton of units. Now, I will say it's been – I think everybody has moved on from Metallica, but I'm still going to put – which Borg am I going to put in the top? Would I – and this hurts me, but would I put Metallica in or would I put Rush in? And I think Metallica just edges out just because of it's brutal, it's hard, but it's also lean. Like Rush is awesome, but it seems like there's a little more going on. So I'm going to give Metallica bonus points for accomplishing something amazing on a smaller scale than Rush. So I'll put Metallica in there. I don't disagree with you. It's a really good game. Number four for me, I'm going to go with Avengers Infinity Quest. This is a game I keep consistently coming back to. It's one that I do have to put down for a little bit. But when I come back, I still, the flow on this game is amazing. It's just, I don't know if there's a better shooting game out there right now, which makes me feel sad because like Avengers for some odd reason has put it at the bottom of one's list. But still at 24 or 25 is the spot. You can't complain with those results. No, it's still great. Still a great game. I love being able to... I think the hiccup is people always focus on the gems, and really the object of the game is to assemble your Avengers and go after Thanos and do that three times. But the gems are so fun. There's just something about starting reality, ripping that disc, getting all the lights lit up, and getting a multiball in there with it, and just start slaying it. And it is awesome. It's one of the few games that the shots go up. yeah they go up on the play field and it is it's really cool i wish that the captain marvel shot were a little more dialed in but yes it is every time i think of okay well which one do i which elwynn game would i sell yeah sadly it is the one that that bubbles up but then i go play it and it's like this is so different than the other ones i can't it's funny though because to me like Avengers is more refined, which obviously it should be, than Iron Maiden. But Iron Maiden gets such a higher praise. But I don't know if it's because it was his first game and people just was like, wow. Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy Iron Maiden. I own it. I have the pro right there. You can see it in my screen. But there's a clunkiness to Iron Maiden that I don't enjoy. Okay. When you hit a shot and it doesn't register because the ball came up off the path, it gets frustrating. Where in Avengers, I feel like, minus the Captain Marvel ramp, which I have mine dialed in, so it punishes you if you don't hit it clean. If you hit it clean, it's going around 10 times. It's great. Yeah, it feels so smooth. Mine feels like butter, so I have no complaints with my Captain Marvel. Yeah. but that just once i got my avengers dialed in yeah it just every shot registers i feel like i earned my score in that game where with iron maiden there's been multiple times i've gotten to the end and something's ricocheted and again it's pinball that's pinball right sure but that's like one of the reasons i don't like houdini like houdini ricocheted so bad out of the theater that i just i don't want to play a game where i get frustrated i want to play a game i enjoy or I feel like if I did lose, it's because of my fault, not because the game was crappy. So that's my number four, Avengers. Okay. My number four is Stranger Things. Nice. I would say that it started out and, yes, people looked at it and said, ah, geez, we've seen this before. Okay. however every single two flipper game has the same shots i'm going to break it to you like there there's basically seven shots that you can make off those flippers yes and so if you're doing a fan a two flipper game it's going to feel the same yes now it was cut short and i'm really glad they brought it back because it is an upgraded version of Revenge from Mars, which is, or excuse me, Attack from Mars, which is a classic. Yep. So it's doing it equal and it's equally good, but updated. So I'm going to take Stranger Things as my number four. And I'm glad that people have the ability to buy it now. If you want it and you missed out, buy it. Yep. All right. So my number three, I am going to go with Guns N' Roses. Okay. This game is full immersion. You always talk about world under glass. This is it. Like Stern might be the kings of tournament play and everything like that. But just the, just you feel like you're in a Guns N' Roses concert. It just, it feels so good. It's cool to see having different items from the band members on the play field, like the drumsticks as a ramp, and just building up that combo. It's that whole risk-reward factor built into it. It's a really fun game. It's a beautiful game. I think overall, it's one of the pinnacles for Jersey Jack. It may not be mechanically the best, like Pirates of the Caribbean, which I would almost tie with Guns N' Roses for my third. But there's something about Guns N' Roses, the light show that is immersed and connected to the footage of the game. It's just so mesmerizing playing this game or watching someone else play it. It takes a little bit to get into. That is my only one downfall is you don't really feel like you can enjoy the game until you get stuff going. And it takes a little bit to get going. But once you open up this game, it's a blast. Okay, so that's your number three. My number three is Deadpool. Deadpool had that boomerang action where when it came out, people said, this is simple. this is this is a throwback this is this is not worth your time nothing to write home about yeah as people got to play it more and more there is maybe this is a theme on my preference on pinball machines but there is an elegance to simplicity especially when it's done well yeah and Deadpool is a simple game that is done so well um it is the game that I moved upstairs so I could move back to Cactus Canyon down but it was kind of because it was the main game I was going to and I needed to swap it up I still have no interest in selling it yeah but I swapped it out of my collection so I would be driven to play some of these other games yep so Deadpool is my number three great great game and it's one that i consider putting on my list and that's glad you put it in yours because i'm like it needs some recognition it is right and i want to i okay i'm cheating a little bit because when you put guns and roses in i i wanted to make room for for other games in the list because i'm glad that you put guns and roses in because yes you are right that it is an experience yes i uh again i prefer the the the streamlined approach of a deadpool all right i don't know if this one's considered cheating since we said like games from 2012 you know like acdc to newer but this game did get a remake in 2017 attack for mars and it has to be the le that topper yeah it's just one of the best make you smile yep goofiest just i i don regret selling any of my pinball machines but if i could get one back yeah i really think it be my attack from mars what it was once described to me that attack from mars is like the epitome of pinball right it is just fun joy in a box and the way that chicago gaming company has updated this game with the mirror blades and the leds and just the sound is so good so good on a cgc it's funny i almost say they don't need shaker motors because you turn those up and you'll feel the game shaking in your hand they're built like a tank it there's a reason that these games are highly sought after and resell for high prices i really wish chicago gaming company would release a new game once a year and then do and evolve and do a vault either the same year or the next year give yourself because you know it takes a couple years for them to come out with a game please doug if you're listening you've got to start putting out more of these games there's still a high demand i know that pinball is tapering off in the market but there's still a high demand for medieval madness attack from mars i mean people are even looking for cactus canyon which shocks me because when we both discussed it when it first came out it just wasn't getting the the hype i thought it would until it released and it's just CGC knows how to take these games and make something magical out of them. And Attack from Mars for me is that. And there is, like I said, it is the epitome of like 1990s code. Like we all cling onto that 90s era because it's kind of a great entry point where it's more modern, but still simplistic, right? It's easy to understand rules, but you're still feeling like you're not playing the 1960s EM. if you haven't played attack from mars and ellie you have to it's just it's it's hilarious there there's call outs it's it's absolutely funny yeah it's memorable it just it's everything and my one of my favorite parts is if you've never done for tea time for tea if you're going after the you know when the all the aliens start jumping on the play field and you've got to knock them down to start Martian multiball. If you leave the one by the scoop for the very last and you miss him and hit it into the scoop, he will laugh at you and say, haha, you missed. Just funny little quirky things like that, right? It's just a great game. So that's number two in my heart. Attack for Mars. Okay. I'm cheating. Dang you. declaring that i'm cheating so my number two is all four cgc remakes oh my goodness okay okay i thought mine was cheating but yeah all four cgc remakes because they are the games that my kids want to play yes they will fail in in depth of code they will fail in the only one of those four cactus canyon monster bash medieval madness and attack from mars the only one that is tournament ready is attack from mars yeah because it still has that risk like any other like the travis murray's out there the tom grafts out there they're gonna kill this game these games but when I brought Cactus Canyon down, that was the game that my kid just played over and over again. And so for the sake of the new generation, we need more pinball like that in the modern era in that they're fun and they're still fun to play. Yeah. So finding that balance, you know, maybe there's a theme in my, in my list is there's something to be said for elegant simplicity. Yep. So that, and the toppers, my gosh, they are amazing. Like all four of those toppers, they, the one downside with cactus Canyon is that no one wants to buy it without the topper because the topper is so cool. So find a way. I agree with you. Keep keep pushing these things out. Figure out a way to make the next, you know, the next remake, like do a whitewater. Your whitewater would be amazing. And the only problem is I'd have to find ways of collecting all of them because I don't think I can sell any of them. I agree. So that's why it is my number two and that my kids won't let me sell any of them. All right. Number one, I think. Do you want to say it together? Yeah. On three. One, two, three. Godzilla. Yeah. OK. It's not even close. Yeah. It really is not even close that the gap between one and two. It's like Tiger Woods at his heyday when he was so far above every other golfer that it wasn't even close. Yeah. and and that is that is amazing to me that we have almost 100 years of pinball and i even add like the the modern flipper era okay yeah like how many games are out there and the number one game justifiably rated uh is a game that was released last year two years ago actually yeah yeah so two yeah two years ago 2021 so that is just it's amazing to me that it is fun casual it is fun deep and again keith ellen is the king of elegant simplicity he does he makes games that new people can understand and tournament people still like I think not only that, he's learned how to dangle the carrot so that you feel like it's close enough, that's achievable, but it's still hard enough that you want to come back for more. And I think it doesn't matter if you're a newbie or if you are, you know, Travis Murray or Keith Elwin. There is just something about Godzilla that is just amazing. It's the little nuances in the code. It's the way the game metamorphosizes as you're playing it. The mechs, which are simplistic but still amazing. It's what Pinball should have – it's what Adam's family did for Pinball in the 90s. Right. It's what Godzilla has done. Yeah. There will be a post-Godzilla and a pre-Godzilla. Yeah. Because it is the new standard. And by the way, I will say elegant simplicity. Keith has done that. However, there are so many options on Godzilla that it's not like you're doing the five things or the five modes. Yeah. Like you can attack that game from so many areas and you still won't be done. But you don't feel lost like Wizard of Oz where it's just so complex that you're like, I don't know where I'm going. Well, and it seems like pinball is very much like line up the dominoes and then knock them over, right? Like you're trying to get them all lined up. and sometimes in pinball you only get about half of them lined up and you gotta knock them down because you're one ball three and and this is the best you're getting right and it's that wood choppiness right like you think of medieval madness you think of attack from ours i'm getting the diamond i was lined up to to to the castle in some ways even though i love metallica it's the same thing like same thing do a crank it up again you know so keith ellen has found some way to make you feel still accomplished even if you don't send up all the dominoes. Nine times out of ten, you're not going to get to the end of this. I've been to Planet X like three or four times. And you've put like 3,000 games on it. I don't know if I put that much. But it's just... I still feel accomplished getting to the mini-wizard mode of either Terror of Mechagodzilla or Monster Zero. and that it's what i love about it is it gives it to you as you're playing the game it's like you've done these things that you've been already doing let's give you a mode for for achieving that where a lot of the other games like take ninja turtles for example or even foo fighters you have to complete those modes yeah foo fires is a great example of this like you start the mode you need to complete it if you're not your your city is flashing and you will not get to the midi wizard mode. You need to do those four things so you can get to... It's a multiball. You can either go to... I want to say it's either Austin, Texas, or it's like Washington, D.C., I think is the two places for me. And yeah, in Guardians of the Galaxy, it does the same thing, right? Right. It's like you have to fight to get that mini wizard mode, where Godzilla is like, oh, you've been playing long enough? You've earned the mini wizard mode. If you're paying attention, you can get them pretty easily right and that i think that's the direction pinball should be going like rewarding you for playing longer like there is if you want tournament play then go with tournament play like get rewarded for making all the shots and i get i get it like people complain godzilla rewards you for failing sometimes and that's kind of the case in some instances but sometimes it isn't right you know i feel like i i actively have to decide whether i'm going for points i'm going for depth in the game right because i i hate to tell you this you know there's people having broken a billion on that game i can get a billion in tokyo before you're leaving it so it's just how you approach the game yep all right well that does it for our list one last question he had for us what do we love most about pinball right now. Go ahead. I want you to go first. I've been thinking about this a lot. I really think it's the community. It's something we talked about earlier. I mean, it's even like Colin reaching out to us saying, hey, there's this concept that someone else came up with. Do you want to run with it? It's like, yeah, let's do it. Like I said, nine times out of ten, the community's pretty amazing. Yes, there are their trolls. They know they're trolls. They're not abashed by it one bit. They're not ashamed of it. so but overall i look at other let me let me give you an example really quick and i'll be super quick about this i played diablo on the phone i haven't played diablo in years i love diablo 2 never really got i never was able to play three so i got i came around the name is for it's like diablo immortal or something like that okay and it dumbfounded me that in a mature game that had a bunch of adults playing it was so toxic, immature, and just spiteful. And this is supposedly a tight knit group that makes clans and, and runs these things. But it was just, it was, it was poisonous. It was poisonous. Yeah. And it is actually to new players. You, they, they destroy new people. Correct. And it was called idiots. Yeah. Yeah, and they make fun of you for not even knowing. And it's funny, in pinball, it's like, if you've ever been to a tournament, you don't have to know very much. If you go to a tournament, people will say, hey, this is what you do, or this is what you can do to improve. You will get help out of the gate. Because I firmly believe, it's like, the first time we did Salt Lake Gaming Con, or the second time, sorry, Bo and Karen showed up. And I walked over to Bo, because at that time, he was like top 30 player, somewhere around there. He might still be. I can't remember. I haven't looked at the list very long. But I walked over to Bo and I said, I've never seen a starship troopers in my life. What do I do? And he's like, I'll boil it down to two things. And I can't remember. It was like, shoot this shot so many times and then you're going to shoot one of the bugs or something. And it's going to be your jackpot and multiball. And that's really all you're going to do. That's the two things. And it was funny because he told me those two things. I went and played starship troopers. I came back. I told him my score and he's like, that was your score? Like, that's a really good score for a game you've never played before. But it was like, it didn't bother him. And maybe he didn't feel threatened. I don't know. But I feel like every tournament I've been to, everyone's been very nice to be like, what can I do to help? Like, are you enjoying yourself? Like, there's only been two instances I can stand out in my mind where I did a tournament. We played a, I love actually pin golf. I know people probably think I'm crazy for it, but I did. a hole-in-one on Twilight Zone. It was doing all the locks and starting multiball, something like that. I can't remember. But I did it. It was kind of hard. And Jeff Rivera of the Pinball Podcast was partnering up with me. And he's like, holy crap, that was amazing. And there was only one deal. And I was like, it's only Twilight Zone. You didn't do that great. Everyone else was like, you did great. Regardless if they believed it or not. Right. And so, but my point being is, is the community is amazing. It doesn't matter if it's tournament, doesn't matter if it's podcast, it doesn't matter what it be. I mean, look at Dan Rothstein's team. And that dude, he was, we were signing his autograph book last expo and now the dude has his own podcast. If you ever checked it out, pin evaders on TPN, give it a listen. It is pretty amazing. It's pretty good stuff. So. Yeah, I was actually texting Dan yesterday. Okay. So it was interesting because we were talking a little bit about just the industry and just kind of looking at it from a fan standpoint. And I actually passively said, yeah, well, I get it. My undergrad was mechanical engineering. And he's just like, I knew there was something about you. Because I don't know what his major was, but he certainly has that background too. So that actually transitions right into my love of pinball is that it's physical. Yes. That you actually have a connection to the machine that's not filtered through a screen or an algorithm. I mean, it's you are it is something that if you take the glass off, you could grab the ball. Yep. And so I love that it's something that it feels real in a world that has increasingly turned artificial. I agree. So everything you said about the community, 100% true. I still remember when I put two and two together that Jeff Rivera was local because I had just barely bought, I think, Spider-Man. And I was trying to figure out a little bit more of how to use it. And he was driving out to pick up Ghostbusters for the release party. And so it was interesting and he was very welcoming. And I had lots of questions and just it was a very good experience. But I just love having something that I can physically interact with and that, you know, it feels it feels real. It feels retro. It feels in it's it's a pre social media experience. I agree. well scott my camera has officially died i have i can tell you you're uh you're frozen there yep it's an el gato no signal no signal they could have taken a better picture to freeze on oh well it is that's okay but i appreciate you joining me tonight and us doing this and uh i guess the next time we talk it's gonna be we i don't know we might get an episode in before for uh x but we'll see we'll see we'll see if we we'll see if we can do it because you you're probably going to be very busy getting ready to go so we'll see what happens so definitely hit up josh if you're going to expo and hey you know if you see something cool message me because i want to live vicariously through you so definitely let me know all right man well if you want to get a hold of us you can get a hold of us through loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com we're also available on all the socials at loser pinball whether it be facebook instagram x tiktok youtube if you haven't subscribed you should do it and same with our podcast and whatnot as well we appreciate all the people that have been reaching out quick shout out to pinball hands that is from the game people he listened to our episode with don and loves that we talked about his stuff and he enjoys pinball podcasts and been listening to ours for a really long time he said uh and he enjoys that we talk we stay mostly on topic we don't talk about pizza toppings which don't listen to our our expo or our tpf episode i guess that was more about people stealing pizza not yeah people stole pizza it was pinball relevant yeah yeah it was very pinball relevant hey if you're wearing any if you're wearing any of our swag hats shoes backpack shirt whatever take a picture with josh find them at expo i want to see a picture definitely i've got i'm going to be wearing my shoes so we'll twin out so okay sounds good see you guys soon see you soon