Exclusive Interview with Keith Elwin | King Kong Pinball Machine Deep Dive & Career Reflections

Gonzo's Pinball Flipperama·video·52m 10s·analyzed·Apr 26, 2025

Analysis

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TL;DR

Keith Elwin discusses King Kong design philosophy, shot innovation, and career evolution in exclusive interview.

Summary

Keith Elwin, legendary Stern Pinball designer, discusses his transition from elite competitive player to game designer, his design philosophy emphasizing flow and innovative shot geometry, and provides extensive details about King Kong Pinball's development, layout decisions, and mechanical innovations. The interview covers his career origin story, design methodology, and reception of Kong.

Key Claims

Keith Elwin designed King Kong starting approximately two and a half years ago
high confidence · Keith Elwin stated: 'I probably started designing it, you know, maybe two and a half years ago now.'
George Gomez approached Keith Elwin about designing King Kong after Godzilla, initially suggesting other themes like Jaws
high confidence · Keith Elwin: 'George started uh a like right after Godzilla and I was just like, Oh, man. I don't want to do backto-back kaiju games. So, he's like, All right, all right. No monster theme. How about Jaws?'
Keith Elwin was uncertain about Godzilla's reception due to complex ball routing with intersecting ball guides creating potential chatter
high confidence · Keith: 'I didn't think anyone would like how Godzilla shot... to me it was really hard to dial in those shots because there's so many like, you know, transitions, you know, ball guy into a different ball guide that that always creates chatter.'
King Kong features offset flippers and a Fathom-style reverse in lane area as a design compromise
high confidence · Keith: 'we'll have an normal in lane on the left and then we'll do a Fathom style to the left of that... in order to do that, yeah, everything had to shift over to the right a little bit.'
The Kong kickback mechanism was inspired by a feature resembling a derby hat when viewed in routing
high confidence · Keith: 'the hole that we call it the howdy hole because if you look at the routing and it looks like you're wearing a hat is it's kind of shaped like a a derby'
King Kong's biplane ramp was originally designed to feed the left flipper but was changed to feed the right flipper to balance shot distribution
high confidence · Keith: 'the biplane ramp used to feed the left flipper and then I discovered you know like all right twothirds of the shots feed the left flipper. So then I I changed it to feed the right flipper to get the the correct balance.'
Keith Elwin removed pop bumpers from King Kong and replaced that gameplay element with a magnet pit area
high confidence · Keith: 'there's no pop bumpers in this game. So this will take the place of a pop bumper and just kind of throw the ball out of control'

Notable Quotes

“What's tough is design an easy flowy game that hasn't been done a billion times. That that's that's the trick.”
Keith Elwin@ 4:05 — Core design philosophy summarizing the central challenge of modern pinball design
“I don't really go to the arcade and play the newest games because, you know, now that it's my job, it's just it doesn't feel fresh and exciting anymore.”
Keith Elwin@ 1:57 — Reflects the psychological toll of designing games professionally versus enjoying them as a hobbyist
“I really enjoy designing them. You know, enjoy coming up with the rules and the layout and, you know, seeing people play the game.”
Keith Elwin@ 1:39 — Articulates what drives him as a designer beyond personal play enjoyment
“I'll print out the CAD file and I'll I'll start drawing you know where's this shot feed? where's this shot feed? And then, you know, if I see, you know, a bunch of them feeding the same area, um, to me, that's a problem.”
Keith Elwin@ 27:34 — Describes his practical design methodology for balancing shot distribution and game chaos
“It's like, okay, you know, it's technically never really been done before. I know there were a few prototype, you know, Dave East ones, and I if I played it, I don't remember, but everyone know who's played it says, Yeah, this thing sucks.”
Keith Elwin@ 20:14 — References the failed 1990s Data East King Kong prototypes as motivation to tackle the theme
“I didn't think anyone would like how Godzilla shot. So, I'm actually shocked if people like think, Oh, that's a great shooting game.”

Entities

Keith Elwinperson George Gomezperson Kevin O'ConnorpersonPat LawlerpersonRick NagelpersonHarrison Drakeperson Jack DangerpersonElizabeth Gizskiperson

Signals

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design_philosophy: Keith Elwin emphasizes fast, flowing gameplay as core design principle, citing Pat Lawler as influence and rejecting pop bumpers and standard fan layouts
high · Multiple statements: 'I like the fast flowy games,' 'pop bumpers... destroy game flow,' 'Pat Lawler was my favorite designer'
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design_innovation: Keith Elwin employs complex intersecting ball guides and transitions to create unique ball paths, first implemented extensively in Godzilla and continued in Kong
high · Keith: 'intersecting ball guides and the uh Kong's no exception... it goes somewhere else, the other direction'
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design_innovation: Kong features offset flippers and Fathom-style reverse in-lane areas to differentiate layout from previous designs
high · Keith: 'we'll have an normal in lane on the left and then we'll do a Fathom style to the left of that... everything had to shift over to the right'
?
design_innovation: Kong features innovative Kong-themed kickback mechanism using a 'howdy hole' derby-shaped scoop for ball routing
high · Keith: 'the hole that we call it the howdy hole because if you look at the routing and it looks like you're wearing a hat is it's kind of shaped like a a derby'
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product_launch: King Kong Pinball receives positive reception immediately upon release, with strong pre-orders and enthusiast confidence
high · Host: 'I know at least four people have already ordered one and there's there's just a confidence in your games.' Keith: 'it's really positive, I think. Um I think people are loving the uh the shot flow'

Transcript

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0:10

Good morning, good afternoon, and of course, good evening. You will all know the gentleman sat to my either right or left. It's always difficult because this camera is in reverse, but it's it's Mr. Keith Elwin. Keith, thank you so much for joining us, mate. Yeah, no worries. Um, big time, but really busy busy period for you at the moment um with with Kong coming out. How's how have you felt that's been received over the past week or so? Oh, it's really positive, I think. Um I think people are loving the uh the shot flow and the uh pretty unique layout. Uh this layout was uh it is tough. Um you know, try not to repeat yourself. It starts getting pretty tough. So, uh I think I uh still managed to make it mine yet not, you know, something we've already seen. that that's I imagine I imagine a few more years of this it's going to get really tough but you know I'll enjoy the ride right now. How's that transition been? How's the transition been from I guess hobbyist to excellent player and then now now pinball designer. This must be I guess you get used to it now but it must be a weird transition initially for you. It was you know cuz I was an operator too. So you know I've always loved playing pinball. Always loved playing pinball. Uh, but now that I'm designing them and, you know, play testing them to death. Like I've been playing Kong for months now. Sure. And it's just like my enjoyment of playing isn't what it was. But, uh, I I really enjoy designing them. You know, enjoy coming up with the rules and the layout and, you know, seeing people play the game. I enjoy, you know, I still love my older games, a lot of the classics I own. Um, but yeah, it's pretty much the only difference is now that I I don't really go to the arcade and play the newest games because, you know, now that it's my job, it's just it doesn't feel fresh and exciting anymore. Well, I I understand exactly this because I was in my job, I I was a hobbyist for for sport and then it became my job. So now sort of, you know, on my off time, I probably don't do the thing that I had for a hobby because it's consuming. How much time do you do you play pinball um on a daily basis just in terms of your job? So it would be Kong in a buildup to Kong and then I guess the expansion of the code. Uh yeah, it all depends where where it is in the project. Um we were trying to cram everything in uh before the stream. So we had a lot of a lot of stuff that needed testing. Um, so I was playing it, you know, a couple hours a day and um, had like two other code testers who pretty much doing the same, but we we were like at least a month we were just jamming on it a couple hours a day. And then after the stream, obviously, we can let up a bit, you know, kind of relax, breathe. Okay, now regroup ourselves. Let's go over all the remaining rules that go need to go in the game. You know, what what's working, what's not so far in the game. Um, you know, stuff like that. Um, I'm really interested in in what you said about keeping your designs fresh because obviously you you jumped you jumped onto the scene with um with a number of games which I thought were very very different to anything that we'd seen before and you'll you'll be aware of certain designers have a reputation for having certain layouts and certain things. I think credit to you. You've I think it would be hard for me to say, "Oh, this is an LWIN design." So, to keep that freshness and to keep the difference in shots is incredible. How much of that stuff is going through your mind? And and I mean your mind before you put it on a on a white on a white wood or anything like that. How much of it is going through your mind? Shots and how they work. Yeah, it a lot. too much probably because you know it's easy to design a smooth flowing you know game. What's tough is design an easy flowy game that hasn't been done a billion times. That that's that's the trick. And are you trying to do are you actively trying to produce something fresh every time? As fresh as I can. Yeah, I'm trying to remain, you know, have the shot flow remain because I like the fast flowy games. Uh Pat Lawler was my favorite designer. I mean, he had a good variety of fast flowy games and some of his slower games I didn't like as much. Like, you know, Twilight Zone, I didn't think that was that fun to shoot. Even though I thought it was a great game, I didn't think it was that fun to shoot. So, I, you know, I kind of kept, you know, his philosophy on the faster games that he did and, you know, make that my own. And like I said, it's it's coming up with different ways of incorporating flow that hasn't been already done a billion times that, you know, personally when I entered um Stern Pinball, I was really sick of the, you know, the fan layout, two ramps, pop bumpers at the top, which just destroy game flow in my opinion. So that's why you don't see them in my games. Well, it's okay. So, so flow flow is a really I I've heard you speak so many times and we'll talk about it for just for the benefit of people that haven't heard you say it before. I understand you know that kinetic feedback is important to you, but but flow is is obviously a massive part of of the game for you. Yes. Yes. Um, you know, I love the older games, you know, you get them up in a pop, you know, there's not that much to do. You're up in a pop bumpers, you're shaking them, and you know, you're trying to do that. But on a modern game with modern scoring, I mean, is this really doing anything for you? You know, I just kind, you know, kind of want the ball back, you know, let's go. Let's, you know, let's do something. If there's a, you know, it's interesting me that slows the ball down for a bit, cool. But if it's just something that you've seen a billion times, like a popup or I don't think anyone today finds that fascinating or interesting. Whereas back in the day, like Gary would said, it it was required, you know, because it, you know, kind of ate up ball time, you know, kept give the player like they accomplished something. But we can do that now with the modern ball save system. It's like, "Oh, I felt screwed." No, you get your ball back. You get your ball back. Like in Kong, in pretty much all my games, you get multiple ball saves per ball based on how well you're playing. So, kind of that kind of makes up for the fact that you're not plunging into pops to, you know, eat up time. Yeah. Well, it's obviously we've not had we'll we'll talk about Kong later on in the interview. Clearly, that that's why you're here and it's it's your latest game. Um I I've been fascinated to to watch you from a from afar from every other side of the Atlantic and watch I guess the evolution of your games as as well. Um particularly in terms of your shots which I won't be the only person. I think the first time we we saw Godzilla the ball was taking these crazy ball paths particularly. You go from the upper flipper and the upper flipper will go over the the the upper part of the playfield. then you can hit it the lower part of the playfield and and sort of then it's going behind Mecca Godzilla and I I I think you you clearly got a very very clear understanding of geometry and certainly shots that appear that they shouldn't work. Um I've got Jaws is a triumph by the way. Congratulations. It's it's borderline my favorite game and um I love it. The the spinner shot that goes up on the left hand side and loops back down. It almost goes up in in a U. It feels like it shouldn't work, but it does. It feels like the geometries um even maybe the helicopter shot in Jurassic Park for instance, you think that that shouldn't work. How much time do you spend on these shots? And I guess my question is the the inertia or or the energy the ball's going to need to make it round these things. You've got a lot of these wave ramps now that go certainly on um oh on Avengers Infinity Quest very much a very vertical ramp on there very much so on on Jaws as well which takes it up um to the upper playfield. How much time are you putting into that stuff and actually throwing balls around wireforms and ramps? Um I think you can just kind of see what's going to work and what's not. Um, for your example, on that jaw shot, the left orbit thing wasn't originally going to do that. I originally had it uh orbiting around to the right side, and it just didn't work. It was really clunky. So, I redesigned that at the 11th hour to just, yeah, kind of do a little U-turn and come flying back down to the inlay. And I was like, wow. You know, we just kind of built one, prototyped it, and I was like, yeah, this this actually works pretty well. And, uh, as far as the ramps, yeah, it's more trial and error. Um, but based on like we we've done them since Jurassic Park. So we we can basically just take, you know, a Jurassic Park ramp, you know, cut it, kind of rebend it to what we need and just jam it on a whitewood. Okay. Can can you make this? Yes. Okay. So now we can actually design it with kind of the same parameters. Yeah. I It's Well, it's incredible. Particularly if you threw that that shot together at the last minute. I it took me probably had the game a month before I realized I actually I can backhand this shot as well which has which has really opened up the game to me and I can't I cannot praise that game highly enough. I think it's always very frustrating when maybe there's a dream theme and it either happened so long ago it's sort of Terminator 2 would be one. It's It's so long ago. I almost want somebody to do T2 now in a sort of a modern modern game with with a screen and everything. But Jaws is very much a dream theme and and you nailed it. You absolutely nailed it. Um the the Quint Shack shot the it the timing of it is is absolutely perfect. And when I play pinball, there's some of those um shots where do you ever consider this the length of time it takes to get back to the flipper, for instance? Is that important? Oh, yeah. That's why I add all the little swoops and uh swirls to my uh wire forms. You know, you got to give something to look at. There's nothing I hate more than like a straight ramp. You know, sure. You shoot a ramp interest and it goes straight to the in lane. To me, that's just the most boring boring thing. I basically accomplished the same thing on Jaws in that lift orbit without making it a ramp. You know, it just comes drop straight down, you know, might as well save that uh vertical space for something cool. So, that's why we added that gigantic uh kind of U-turn wire form from the upper play field because we had all that space. Well, it it really works. And just the timing of it, it just seems to allow you, you know, so much time. and and I've I've often in fact I produced a video yesterday and I was talking about shots being where they're supposed to be for me um and the difference between a shot being where it's supposed to be and actually dialing a shot in. And you obviously you're a you know one of the best pinball players of all time. So you you're going to you know you're going to be have a skill set that's far in advance when you're planning it out. Are there I guess are there positions where you think that shot's not going to work in terms of it's at the wrong angle or that's I'm I'm fascinated by the geometry of a game when you've got it on the on the white on the whitewood. Yeah. So, you know, I suffered that too, you know, kind of when I was making my homebrew archer. I was like, oh, you know, this shot should work and then then it's like, oh, no, it doesn't. And then, you know, as my layouts evolve, I can quickly just spot shots that aren't going to work very well. Like, um, you know, if I look some of the homebrews going on, it's like, "Oh, man, that's going to be a tough shot." And then I'll watch video of it, and it's like, "Yeah, no one can hit it." Uh, it's it's you you just start to recognize, but also some some shots will surprise me that they do work, you know. Yeah. Well, you've quickly gained a reputation of of making shots that work. And and I think when um cuz Archer was, have I got this right? Arch was was Iron Maiden basically. Was that what it became? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Um I think when so when we see the release of Kong, it's quite incredible really because I think you've gained a reputation where we know that the shots are going to work, but we don't know um what what we're going to get with it really. Um, how's that? C, can you just before we get on to con, can you just tell talk me through that that conversation that went from some you you made you do your homebrew obviously you're you're well known at the time because you you're winning you're winning tournaments playing that time that took you from I guess that first ever offer from from Stern when they contacted you. Could you just talk us through that for people that haven't heard the story?

13:00

Uh, so I always I mean ever since I was like I can say like 10 12 I always was in the backyard making kind of maybe not exactly pinball. I would design, you know, more like a pachinko type bagel stuff with just plywood and nails because, you know, my dad just had all this stuff sitting around and I was like, "Oh, I'm going to build this." And then we would play together, you know, I put rubber bands across males and stuff. And then uh uh like 1998, I designed a uh South Park home brerew like way back in the day before anyone was really home brewing. Uh my friend and I Yeah. designed it and it was basically running on a Popeye software and we took it to a show and yeah I get one like homebrew. It was like one of the first homebrew things ever and then we were so sick of it that after the show we just sold it which is I regret. Um and then yeah I've always you know kind of wanted to t you know tinker with design. And I used to play pinball construction set growing up, you know, the EA game where you can just move pops and flippers wherever and play test them. Um, and then yeah, you know, when the homebrew stuff started coming on the market, like you know, Archer was PRock and my brother had just retired and was like, "Hey, if you're bored, do you want to want to make a pinball?" And he he was like, and I was like, and you know, our favorite show at the time was Archer and I was like, "How about an archer pinball?" And he's like, "Oh yeah, okay." So yeah, you know, I just uh went about, you know, I wanted just like, hey, you know, I could do whatever I want. You know, I don't have to worry about licenser. I don't have to worry about budget. So I just, you know, threw together a four flipper game and tried to put together some unique stuff. I really wanted to do like that the bullseye thing in the middle. It's like, okay, depending on where you hit it, it's 1x, 2x, 3x. And um so that was born and then uh it got traction and George reached out to me. He's like, "Hey, you know, uh, we're not going to live forever, so you know, we we want to get some younger designers in here." And, uh, he, uh, yeah, he offered me the job and rest is history. Well, I'm going to bring Enzo in in a second. We're all really grateful for it because and and I definitely, you'll be able to see from the comments, I I definitely are comfortable. I don't like speaking for anyone but myself, but on this, I'm comfortable. I think you gave the pinball industry a real shot in the arm with some new ideas and innovation at exactly the time it needed it. A real what I think is a purple patch like a new golden age for pinball which I think is now and you've been you you've been a massive massive part of that. So yeah, I can I can only really thank you but that you said that you said yes. Um, which cuz it must have been d it must have been daunting I'm guessing to uh when when George came calling obviously you'd have you'd have played loads of George Gomez games and I guess he was a bit of an idol of yours as well. That must have been a daunting phone call or or meeting or whatever. Oh yeah. Um what made it easier was uh so I was hired first and then George is like hey I can either you know set you up an existing coder and engineer or you know we can hire a new engineer a new coder you guys just be in your own little cell I mean I'll check in and make sure you guys are you know aren't screwing up but you can put you guys in your own cell we're going to see what you guys do. So, uh, we hired Rick Nagel and Harrison Drake and the three of us like instantly became friends and, um, now, you know, we've worked on every single game together. So, uh, it's, you know, it's a team effort for sure. Uh, I, you know, Rick's being an awesome coder. He doesn't care about pinball rules. So, you know, I write I write the rules and he's just like, "Yeah, cool. That sounds great." Uh, you know, we'll get u you know, you know, wingman coders. Uh, we had some talented ones. Elizabeth Gizki, Joshua Henderson, both, you know, talented players and already have a grasp on the rules. So, you know, we'll bounce ideas back and forth and, uh, you know, it's just it's having an amazing solid team really helps. Well, it it's clear and and I think for all the reputation you have for your shots and your layouts, which are innovative and brilliant and fun, as pinball's got to be fun. Mhm. I I I nobody ever I never hear it associated with your game. So often when pinball machines get released, hear people say, "Oh, oh, I hope the code gets done. I hope the code gets developed." Don't anybody ever says that with your games, which are fully coded and coded really well. Let me just um let me just bring Enzo in here. He's He's actually hiding behind my camera. Enzo, you look you look like you're in a night you're in a nightclub, mate. It kind of feels like it. It's uh 10:30 at night here in Australia. So, keep How you doing? Hey. Yeah, I'm better now. The internet's finally working. Oh, was that okay? You've been having some internet troubles. Well, you you've come at at the perfect time, Enzo, because I' I've sort of been getting um you know, getting a back getting Ke's backstory and talking sort of generically about his pinball journey and um and his his baby steps into design and just how he's sort of, you know, become the main man in in pinball and it's it's been incredible. Um but um I think it's probably time to move the conversation on to Kong now. Uh which is which is obviously the reason why we're all here. Everybody's incredibly excited by this game and as I've already mentioned, well, I know I know at least four people have already ordered one and there's there's just a confidence in your games that for all the reasons we've already explained that they're just going to work. Um, if I bring the video in now, hopefully this works. There you go. Um, Enzo, do you I'll start playing it and and do you want to start asking uh asking Keith some questions about this this absolutely wonderful game here?

18:54

Now, uh, from, you know, we've we've obviously known for a while that there was rumored to be this this theme and and what Keith what you were working on. I think one of the things that um straight straight away kind of when we got this trailer um what what blew me away was just how much was obviously in this game uh shotwise and and um the like one thing straight away that kind of got me was like I wonder like this layout how long it took like did you already have this vision of things that you wanted to bring in or would you already have a plan and then So, you know, I know I heard you say in other interviews that George was kind of hassling you to do this theme for a while. Did you were you already working on something and then you kind of said, "Oh, this would work in King Kong." Or was it completely new? Yeah. So, George started uh a like right after Godzilla and I was just like, "Oh, man. I don't want to do backto-back kaiju games." So, he's like, "All right, all right. No monster theme. How about Jaws?" I was like, "Okay, it's uh yeah, it's a monster theme that also has never been done before, which, you know, it's part of the appeal to me of uh why I ended up accepting Kong. It's like, okay, you know, it's technically never really been done before. I know there were a few prototype, you know, Dave East ones, and I if I played it, I don't remember, but everyone know who's played it says, "Yeah, this thing sucks." So, um uh but I looked at it, you know, it looked interesting. So, I was like, "All right, you know, I'll take on the project and then uh but I wanted Kevin O'Connor just, you know, hey, you know, here's this thing you you did 30 years ago that never really saw the light of day, you know, had how do you want to you want some redemption?" And he's like, "Oh, yeah, for sure." Um, and so, yeah, I probably started designing it, you know, maybe two and a half years ago now. Um, and just yeah, I just wanted something to I'll be 100% honest with you, I didn't think anyone would like how Godzilla shot. So, I'm actually shocked if people like think, "Oh, that's a great shooting game because, you know, to me it was really hard to dial in those shots because there's so many like, you know, transitions, you know, ball guy into a different ball guide that that always creates chatter. Uh, I I was just afraid. was like, "Ah, this is super clunky." And I didn't think anyone would like it when I released that. And I was surprised when everyone, it was so wellreceived. So then I was like, "Okay, well, I'll I'll do more stuff like this with the intersecting ball guides and the uh Kong's no exception." Like, you know, you have looks like one orbit one way, but it it's only in orbit one way, it goes somewhere else, the other direction, you know, stuff like that. You know, it it's, you know, doing something different, but it also creates, you know, less smooth shots. So, it's kind of a trade-off. Um, so that's kind of how I approached this game. I I'll, you know, I'll do it in the same vein as Godzilla, but I'm obviously don't want to repeat it. And, uh, so I made it quite different at the bottom. The slingshots are way closer than most of my layouts. The flippers are a little bit offset. Uh, so it shouldn't feel the same at all. Uh, from Godzilla and Kong. Have you Have you ordered one then, Zo? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I had already ordered one before we kind of even saw the trailer. because like you know it's Keith, right? Um and you know one of one of my favorite games of yours is actually Avengers Infinity Quest. The way more the way it shoots and lay out I'm not a very good player and I struggle with deep code games and that is a really deep coded game. Um but like it's got some of the best shots in pinball. And then seeing when this dropped and then we had that top left hand flipper um and then the kickback from Kong, I I was pretty mesmerized by because I was going kind of going there's only so much you can do in the playfield, right? And then you know there are so many designers out there now. Seeing something that had just different stuff in it again um was what kind of blew me away. So you know and the homage to bringing Kevin in with the artwork I think was great. When I first saw it, I was kind of like, whoa, there's a lot going on. And then I found out Kevin had been bought in because I was like, that does look a lot like the data east one, which there was whatever it was, like eight or nine of them. I think it's nine. I think one burnt down or something. But um you you you get a sense of that nostalgia from the '9s. It looks very ' 90s, which I really liked. Um and it made sense when I heard that it was obviously you guys bought him in. It was a great Look, it was a great idea. I I love it. I honestly think that it's Yeah, it looks awesome. Yeah, it does. Um I'm I'm fascinated by the offset flippers actually. So, because obviously you've got what's going on on the left hand side where it obviously feel it feeds into the to the in lane and has that um that sort of crazy ball path there. Is that why the flippers are offset? Yeah. Um, it's exactly why I wanted to, you know, do something different in in outlane area. You know, I was thinking, okay, it'd be cool to have like a Fathom type uh in lane area, but I also not the biggest fan of those, but so the compromise is, okay, we'll have an normal in lane on the left and then we'll do a Fathom style to the left of that. So, you have a normal in lane, then you have the Fathom, you know, reverse in lane, outlane. Um, so in order to do that, yeah, everything had to shift over to the right a little bit. So, but but Jack obviously Jack's done what he's done with a danger room. Oh god, that that was way offset, man. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you're both doing this stuff. You're obviously both aware of what you're designing. Obviously, you're in house. Did was that a conversation? We're both doing offset designs at the same time. Uh yeah, kind of. Um yeah, I saw I saw his danger room. I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'm doing something kind of similar, but it's like up at the top." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. the um just going on the shots earlier, the the kickback shot where it's the it's Kong punching it back, right? Yeah. Again, that's that's crazy innovation. How long did that take to um to work through on on the whiteboard whiteboard? Actually, not that long at all. Uh the trick was um the hole that we call it the howdy hole because if you look at the routing and it looks like you're wearing a hat is it's kind of shaped like a a derby and um we you know we had to find out the perfect way to do that. So if the ball when we hit the target and don't fire it back we treat it as a scoop and it drops into this hole. So that was that was the only tricky part is getting that right. So you know we didn't want the ball swirling back and forth too much. You know if we move the hole too close then it gets really clunky. So, that was pretty much the only uh uh testing we had to do on that. Yeah. Again, it's just more innovation. What have you seen, Enzo? You you'd like to ask Keith about this because I know you've been really studying this game and the shots. Look, I think the you know, there's there's an awesome kind of like blend of flow and chaos, right? It's it must be hard to strike that balance because I think when you've got like a something as big as Kong. Um I'm sure there must be a heap of stuff that you had to kind of work that got scrapped that ideally, you know, in prototyping. Um because because it must it must be so challenging as a designer. I've mucked around on some apps before just to try and what can I make? Um, and even just to trying to work out one shot, let alone however many ball paths. Do you know how many ball paths are in this game? No, but we didn't have very much room for GI, so we have a lot of spotlights. Yeah. So, um it must be just challenging to try and balance that, you know, that that's the biggest thing for me because I don't, you know, trying to even like the making sure that biplane shot ends up where it ends up like how do you how do you balance that? Like how long did that take? Uh you're talking about uh like which feed feeds which flipper. Yeah, just in general. I mean the layout is so unique, right? And then that trying to get that balance of flow and still having a bit of chaos but that balance. Yeah. So originally there wasn't in my mind there wasn't that balance. So the biplane ramp used to feed the left flipper and then I discovered you know like all right twothirds of the shots feed the left flipper. So then I I changed it to feed the right flipper to get the the correct balance. Um so it it's just a matter of you know I'll print out the CAD file and I'll I'll start drawing you know where's this shot feed? where's this shot feed? And then, you know, if I see, you know, a bunch of them feeding the same area, um, to me, that's a problem. And, you know, if you have a game that's like all ramps, uh, it creates a problem. It's like, okay, these ramps are going to feed, you know, one or two places or or three. Um, so it it reduces the chaos. So, I was trying to keep some of the chaos. So, you know, the drop targets have to stay. The whole magnet pit area was designed because, hey, there's no pop bumpers in this game. So this will take the place of a pop bumper and just kind of throw the ball out of control, you know, stuff like that. The gong is, you know, it's fairly close to the player and, you know, if you hit it really hard, you have to be on your toes. So it was a balance. You know, some shots are going to create chaos and, you know, others are uh, you know, going to do like something cool on the ramp or, you know, something that you haven't seen before. Hopefully. Well, I think we always get something we haven't seen before. I'm actually you you made me laugh there because thinking if what you're saying is you put so many shots in there that you had to remove some of the general illumination basically right that's that is that's a microcosm for what everybody does with pinball. So it's a bit like me in my lounge and I had like an L-shaped sofa in the lounge and I needed another pinball machine and I thought you know particularly when my oldest daughter moved out I thought I don't I'm not sure I need that other part of my sofa. So let's get rid of the sofa. as getting rid of half of the sofa and put another pinball machine in there, which is basically what you've you've done on the playfield. Um, yeah, how aware of you. Um, something going back to something you said earlier, which is ball saves and something I certain I'd be fascinated to know if this is the case. Something I really noticed at the start of Godzilla, which is fascinating to find out that you were you didn't think that people would receive that. Well, that's that's hilarious. Um, at the start of the game, I think it's quite generous and I'm pleased it's generous. It keeps giving me the ball bank. It feels like at the start it's saying, "Go on, have another go. Go on. Go on. We're not going to punish you at the start." So, I think particularly on location, it's what can make people walk away from a machine if they put their put their coins in or scan in or whatever they're doing now. I think that can make people. So, I thought it was it was very generous, but also I thought it was there's enough in there whereby um you you can access enough of the game without being a brilliant player. You can feel like you're getting rewarded by any any of the the mini modes, the the you could get to a multi boys. I just feel there's encouragement in the code at the start of the game, but also enough if you're going to go and, you know, rampage through all four all four um all four locations and really get into the depth of the game and and do the tanks and the trains and all of that stuff. How aware of you when you're coding it are you of thinking I've got to offer up something at the start for the beginner? Oh yeah, very very aware. Uh that's one of George's, you know, peeves, too. He's like, I don't want to press start and wait 10 minutes for something to happen. You know, it's like, uh, we got to give you something close to the start button that's, you know, fairly easy to hit. Uh, you know, in the case of Kong, um, you know, the spider pit's right there, the gong is right there. You're going to hit one of those two things. Uh, if not, then, you know, the drop targets also, you know, start the combos mode, which is like its own mode. Um, you know, even the stand up targets, we still have this uh double playfield scoring, but it's also a mode, too, because if you keep hitting each individual stand up, uh, it starts scoring more and more points. So, even if you have nothing running, it's worth shooting those. So, you know, it's stuff like that. Just ancillary stuff that you're accidentally going to start, you know, especially, you know, on location or like people's they can't hear the game, you know, so if nothing interesting's happening, they're going to get bored and walk away. And yeah, as far as the ball saves, uh we use um an adaptive ball save system. So if you have a really crappy ball one, uh the ball saver on ball two uh is going to adjust to be much more generous. Really? Yeah. If you look at if you go into settings, you'll see something target ball time. That's how you adjust that. So if it I think it defaults to like two minutes or something and it you know how however long your first ball was it looks at the target game time and then it adjusts the ball save accordingly. That's incredible that rare. Yeah. But so if you're ever wondering why you had a really really bad first ball but then wow the ball save is going forever on my second ball. It's you. You've done it. It's not me playing. Yeah it's you. Yeah. So yeah I think it it can go up to 30 seconds if you had a really bad first ball. So yeah. So even when I play well you get the credit.

32:10

Sorry, I was just gonna ask because obviously I know you've done a couple awesome interviews with Loser Kid and the boys from Triple Drain and that our viewers or Chris's viewers may not have seen those, but um one of the things about this license, there was so many options that people were like, "Oh, is there going to be like vintage Kong or is it going to be Peter Jackson's Kong?" Obviously, we ended up with the book version, which was a smart idea because obviously you less dealing with licenses about because the book I guess was a bit like Alice where it's free-for-all. Um, you had said that you as long as things like you know the um she wasn't like a damsel in distress and all that. One of the things that I was seeing a bit of confusion about is are you actually playing as her who's an explorer in this game or are you playing as someone else when you walk up to the game? I know it's Yeah, I know it's confusing right now because our intro isn't done, but at game start, Kong is in New York and captured. So, as soon as you press start, uh soon as you press start, you know, you'll see we have these uh theater curtains pull open, but we just have a logo there for now. So yeah, hopefully next code update that will be in there. But what's happening is Kong has been captured and you're at the theater. You're waiting to see the grand reveal of Kong. But first, you know, um Carl Denim is going to show you the making, you know, how we got here, how we captured Kong. So they're going to show you the adventures of the island. So when you start a mode, it goes from a film grain to kind of like live action. and all all the uh um island scenes is kind of the uh you know cell-shaded Kong, you know, because it has kind of this f fantasy vibe to it. Whereas when Kong's in New York, it's more you know, darker lighting, harsh lighting because it's this is real time. This is really happening. So, you know, you're yeah, you're you're basically watching the scenes of how all this unfolded. And then when you you know, you know, obviously we have to jump back and forth because you don't want your game to be completely linear, which is insane. It's like, well, you know, I start in an island and it, you know, end up in New York City. It's like, well, that that's going to be so linear and boring that you're you're you're going to be stuck on the island most of the time. So, obviously, there's things that we have to jump back and forth like where he's climbing a building. I know obviously that happens later in the book, but um you know, for to keep the game itself interesting, we we have to do that. But the overall, you know, story arc is you're watching the footage of all this stuff and then when you like one of the New York City modes, okay, now you're in real time. He's on display and then, you know, obviously he gets loose and, you know, wres havoc. Did you get any Did you Sorry. Sorry, Enzo. No, no, there's a bit of delay. Go ahead, Chris. I I was going to say, so you've read the book before you've designed the game um or when you know you're going to do it. Did you read the book and find any ideas and think, I'm I'm going to take that and I'm going to I make a shot out of it or a mech out of it. Did how how much influence did that have? Yeah, the book was fascinating because it's only 60 pages, I think. And Kong is in New York for three pages. Okay. Almost the entirety takes place on the island. And so, you know, it was tough because when you think of King Kong, you think of him on the Empire State Building. Wow. That's like that's barely part of the story. So yeah, and you know, there's much more island adventure in the book, like the spider, you know, the spider pit plays a much bigger role than in any of the movies. Um, so yeah, that's why I kind of I focused on the the the pit of animals there. The the octopus insect, which uh is only in the book, that's never been in the movies. And uh the two-legged lizard did, I think, make an appearance in the first movie, but I don't know if it made it into any of the others. So, you know, kind of focused, you know, that area uh specifically and then, uh, yeah, we had to kind of take our own stab at a story. Uh, so we, you know, we hired a script writer and it's like, okay, yeah, we'll just we'll make this an adventure um type thing. You know, it's basically the same characters, but they're they're there for different reasons. Um, just, you know, just make the story more interesting, make it our own. Um, and, you know, yeah, like I said, she's not just some, you know, ditzy blonde there tied up half the time. She's actually, you know, there. And it's also not a love story. It's, you know, she doesn't fall in love with Kong because the book that, you know, doesn't really happen. He just she's trying to get away. She doesn't want anything to do with him, you know. Does he Does he fall in love with her, though? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a one-way love story. I've had a few of those myself in my time to be honest with you. Probably Enzo has in that nightclub there. Enzo, sorry, what did you want to ask? No. So basically, so just to recap, so you we start off the game, he's already captured, he's in New York, then it's there basically because the guy shot a documentary on the island. So we're experiencing that documentary ultimately. Yes. Yes. So the island scenes you're experiencing u kind of flashbacks to, you know, how we got here and then you when you when you climb the building, you get to certain floors, lights in New York City event. Okay, now it's we're in real time. uh we're in New York, you know, and then the story folds from, you know, folds from New York, which most people are familiar with there from, you know, when he's captured to when he's on top of the building. But a lot of people aren't familiar with the the island from the book. Well, and it kind of like the good thing about it, I guess, is that like you said with Kong, a lot of people don't realize that he's hardly in New York in the book. um having that kind of trying to capture in a play through like well you know we need a balance of obviously the jungle and the New York and then it kind of makes more sense now knowing that that you know he's in the corner there in New York and that is kind of the where we're at and then the rest is kind of what where what's happened and you know how we got here and I think that's it must have been hard to cuz you kind of don't really notice that it sticks out a little bit cuz the rest of it is all jungle and colorful whereas that corner of the playfield is New York. Um, was that challenging to try and find that kind of like how do we make it blend because the gong's right in front which is a fantastic mech because I didn't actually realize the gong is uh was a kickback and then obviously the spring releases so you got a twoin- one mech there. Um, but that is obviously looks like it's in the New York area, but then when you kind of look at a different view of it, you realize, well, it is, but it blends well. Like, it works. Yeah, it must have been challenging. Yeah, New York was always supposed to be kind of the back right corner. Uh, that gong mech is kind of like the borderline. Uh, the only real uh issue we came across is we have so the building has this climb meter of all these inserts. It's like, okay, well, obviously the building has to be here. and then we switch back to a gong and it's just yeah it's just one of those okay you know do I want to make a good game or do I want to make a game that makes sense you know it's like choose I okay I'll choose to make a good game even you know the artwork or jumps New York back to the island back to New York it's like you know I'll take the blame for that uh but yeah I didn't want to move the gong elsewhere because it didn't really fit anywhere else so do you sorry we got we got someone in the states we got someone in Australia and someone in the UK so we're we're relying on technology. I was sorry I was just gonna ask Keith, do you do you get nervous before a release um to see what the reaction is going to be? No, not really. Um it's more of a relief because, you know, everyone knows I'm doing it. I can't I be like, "Oh, I'm not what you know." Then once it actually is leaked and it's like, "Oh, fine. I can talk about it finally, you know." Yeah. It gets out gets out quite a lot, doesn't it? They There's quite a lot of leaks. So, yes, everyone tends to know this. I can't I can't remember the last time there was a a surprise release. Was I? I can't I can't think from anyone really. Sorry, Enzo. No, I was just saying I'm curious to ask Keith this because you know Pinball's interesting because it's only one of the small things I've only collected where everything is so discreet and hush hush. Whereas in like video game industry, we know years in advance that they're working on Cyberpunk or that they're working on the next whatever it is. Do do you find that like I mean was it just easy just for everyone to know? Um I know licensing you don't want your competitors to know that you're doing Kong, right? But I guess once I don't know I've always thought just it would be better to get kind of feedback earlier maybe like what's your take on all that? Yeah, it would be but also I know like it's a lot of it has to do with licensing restrictions. Uh, you know, obviously in case of this game, we could have, you know, just started teased it and it would have been fine. But if it was a license game, then we're we're like, "Oh, yeah, we're going to do this saying license, okay, well, the clock starts now. Start paying us, you know." So, you know, there's a there's a rhyme and reason for everything that you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's f it's absolutely fascinating actually. And I mean, the thing is the competitors know, everybody knows, you must all know what everybody else is doing. Um, how how much how much do you pay attention to what everybody else is doing, other companies? I guess it's different in house, other stern designers because you you know, you can guess you can walk across the walk across the the the office, but um, how much do you pay attention to other games that are coming out? Um, yeah, I mean, because, you know, I'm a pinball player, obviously. I'm not as passionate as I I used to be like traveling to tournaments and stuff, but you know, I still enjoy seeing, you know, other people's new releases and seeing what they're coming up with. Yeah. Yeah. No, Bob. Yeah. I I I did often wonder if every time you do a game, everyone thinks, "Oh, no. Keith, another game again now." Because I just I just think you've you've set the bar so high. I really do. And and but I think that's always good in anything when you have that level of competition. It forces everybody else to um I think to up their game. Um which is which I think is precisely what's happening. I'm I'm interested actually Keith in So we got animations on this. We had animations on Jurassic Park. How much different is that to doing a game where you're dealing with animations on the screen as opposed to Jaws thinking, well actually I've got to cut this movie scene into here and work around that. that that appears to me like it' be almost a completely different skill set really. Yeah. So it it's a give and take. So the advantage I have in Kong is I can do whatever I want in a mode and these guys will make animations to match. Whereas like in Jaws it's a great example of like okay well here's this scene of the the shark floating away. How do I design a mode around that? You know it's it's tough. Um, it's nice to be able to do that sometimes, but also it can be a hindrance. Godzilla was easy because it was just like smash, smash, smash, punch, you know. Uh, but yeah, Jobs was a much tougher challenge because there was, you know, you watch the entire 2-hour movie, there's probably like 10, 12 minutes of actual action in it. And the rest is, you know, three guys sitting around talking. So, it's like, you know, it was that was the tough one to tackle. Um, so but we, you know, we added the bounty hunt system which was all our animations just to give the player, you know, something else to do besides, you know, just sitting on the boat waiting for the shark. Can I ask a question? It's completely indulgent. It's self-indulgent. I'm just going to ask I'm going to go, you're in front of me, so I'm going to ask you now. If I if I'm hunting a shark on if I'm doing the Makeo shark and and whatever, I've got to do, you know, three ramps, six ramps, or whatever, and so many and I don't make it. I can't even believe I'm asking this, but I'm going to. Um, if I don't make it, do I then have to hit the fishing reel again to get that bounty back so as I can restart that mode? I believe so. But I think then the requirements are cut in half. So, if you do a mode you've already done and failed, it's much it's much easier to catch the shark because he's already halfway down. Okay. Thank you. I could I could have gone to pinside and searched it, but you're you're right in front of me, so I thought I thought I'd ask. Um the video mode in in Jaws is sensational. What are the plans video um video-wise on on this one on Kong? Video mode? Yeah. I I don't know, man. Probably not on this one. No, you know, you don't think you'll do one. I think Josh has lent itself perfectly because of the the video game tie-in. They had the one scene where he's playing Killer Shark and I was like, "Oh man, that could totally make that a video mode." And we all went to um when Jaws they did a re-release over the summer and Stern sent us all you know go watch the movie and you know some of the guys in team hadn't seen it in you know 30 years. So, we all were at the theater. We all sat next to each other, me, Harrison, and Rick and we were watching the movie. And then that scene comes up where he's he's playing that and I was like, "Oh my god, we got to make a video mode of this." And Rick's like, "Oh, cool. Sounds fun." You know, because Rick's from the video game industry, so I was like, you know, we'll throw back to him. And then um yeah, I sat down designing it and originally it was only you can only fire forward and I was like, "All right, this it's almost there. This kind of sucks." So then we added, you know, left, right, center shots. And I was like, "Okay, yeah, here we are. It it it feels I'm not a great fan of of video modes um in in pinball machines because I think back in the day in like WPC times the video mode was probably as good as something you were playing on an arcade game and now you've got better games on your phone than you can possibly get on on a pinball machine. So they feel like they feel cheap and lesser in comparison. So they don't feel important in that game in Jaws. It feels important. I'm really it's it's weird. I'm desperate to get that extra ball. I'm desperate to get those points. Um I do I'd say yeah congrat another another congratulations um really on that. I mean I think it worked because it's based on you know a game you play if you play that game today it's like wow this is cheesy but you know that's you know that's what they were playing back then so that I think it fit perfectly in the game is thematically you know well time capsule of that period. Yeah you've done that perfectly. Um, Enzo, before we let Keith go, who's kindly joined us, did you have any final questions for him? Yeah, I guess there was that thing where, you know, everyone hearing this rumor and obviously everyone's like, oh, Gary had done that photo in front of that King Kong poster many years ago. Um, and straight away everyone kind of went, there's going to have to be um, especially a lot more of the harsher content creators, um, oh, there's got to be a building. There's got to be a building or else we riot. Right. the the idea which I really like and correct me if I'm wrong. The idea that the building is on the artwork and we are constantly during the game climbing the building in the background, right? So, it doesn't matter whether you're in modes or which mode, there is that constant uh climb. Um, is that always happening in the background? It doesn't like stop or you've got to be in a specific mode. How does that actually work? Yeah, that's always happening until you fill out a whole floor. Yeah. Uh each one of those windows is a a foot marker like 100 feet, 200 feet, 300 feet and then when you fill out a floor of windows at likes a New York City event and then it'll stop until you do the event and then it'll it will resume. But yeah, I the problem with having a uh a building on the you know an actual like sculpt on the building is you know the building is super tall and you know Kong Kong is 30 feet tall. So we you know we were like mocking some stuff up and so we have this either have this comically large Kong on this tiny little building or you know we blank them both really small and it just unimpressive. So yeah, we we ditched that early. And so then I I switched to okay, what if we're inside the building? So it's like, okay, you're in that upper right area is Ann's apartment and here's a window and then you this giant hand comes in, you know, grabs the ball and then drops it in that area. And so I, you know, kind of mocked, you know, something like that up, but then yeah, George was like, "No, it's got to have this giant Kong." You know, I was like, "Yeah, I agree." So, um, we, you know, I scrapped that idea before it got went any further. And then that's how we ended up with the, you know, Kong smashing a train. He's incredible. He's a big Kong. Like, you were holding it in one of the interviews you did with Loser Kid. Like, it's a big It looks much smaller in the videos and then you were holding it. Was the one that you were holding in that that was on your desk the same size that ended up in the game? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's bigger than It's bigger than you think. Yeah. Takes up a lot of space to back panel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're still working on, you know, some of the animations. Um, but yeah, he can punch the train, he can punch the glass, uh, he can do little dances and stuff. Um, hey, say hi. There he is. Um, I I I've got to say, and I'm I'm I love the punching of the glass. We were We did speculate on that, didn't we? Uh, and so before we we were wondering that, um, I've got to say a little thing I really noticed. I really like it. It's a small detail. I love the sound the spinners make. Oh, really nice touch. Really, really nice touch actually. They've got that whatever a jungle sound or something. They got something going on with them which I think really really adds to it. It's it's a small bit but it's it's nice to see it done. It's all the small details that go who who spotted that? Who thought oh hold on let's let's do that. Yeah. It's funny because Jerry Rig gave a sound. It was a bongo left, right, left. Each spinner did left, right, left, right, left, right. And I was like, uh, why don't we just have right spinner do right, left spinner do left. And that way if you get them both spins at the same time, you get, you know, kind of, you know, more of a random uh drum pattern than, uh, you know, just constant same one over and over. Yeah, it's great. It's great. I I absolutely love it. Um, Keith, I think I don't even think it's going to be another triumph. Um, I'm very amused that you weren't sure whether Godzilla was going to be, particularly given it turns out to be, and you know, sort of like the most popular game of all time probably. and and you know in everyone's favorite game. Um you know continue doing what you're doing. It's I can't say any more than there's never any doubt when you do a game that it's going to be good which I guess puts extra pressure on you. Um and you know massive congratulations to your team who are obviously you're so polished so good at what you do. Absolutely the leaders now um in what you do and um and thank you very much for joining us. Any last words Enzo? Um, I would assume you would know what your next game is or you taking a break because I kind of feel like you've worked back to back back to back like because obviously you had you know like have you like Yeah. Do you already know because I know you said when you you were had done an interview about Jaws that you'd already finished your next game which was obviously this game. Like do you know what your next game is or you having a break? Yeah. Yeah. I I already designed a layout for my next game a few months ago. Um Oh wow. We're just we're just now kicking that project off and you know I might you know do some revisions and but yeah I' I've known for probably almost a year now cuz this is probably your next game cuz I think you know when you did Jaws everyone you kind of already knew about Kong it this one funny enough I was talking to um Don yesterday about it and he's like we we don't actually know anything like it's probably been the most tight lipped cuz like I wonder if he's is working on something and I was like, "Well, I'll ask him." No rumors at all. No rumors at all. No rumors at all. I've heard nothing. Wow. I'm sure I'm sure something will leak eventually. You would You would think so. Keith, thanks so much for your time. I know you're a busy man and uh yeah, just massive congratulations and we're all looking forward to getting our hands on Kong. Um Keith Elwin, ladies and gentlemen, and Enzo [Music]