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The Pinball Show Ep 134: Rumor Fatigue, The Current Pinball Market Landscape, & Hogwash Pinball

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 52m·analyzed·Aug 1, 2023
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TL;DR

Pinball industry rumor fatigue, Venom underperformance, and licensing cost realities.

Summary

In this episode of The Pinball Show, hosts Zach Manning and Dennis Creasel discuss rumor fatigue in the pinball community, Stern Pinball's production updates and scheduling, lukewarm Venom sales performance, and industry rumors including John Wick and He-Man pinball machines. They also explore the high licensing costs for Harry Potter (rumored $10 million for full assets) and express interest in 90s action film themes for future pinball games.

Key Claims

  • Venom is not selling as fast as Foo Fighters, Mandalorian, or James Bond

    medium confidence · Zach reports distributor feedback showing unspoken LE machines in factory allocations and lukewarm Pro/Premium sales

  • Warner Brothers is asking $10 million for a full-asset Harry Potter pinball license

    medium confidence · Rumor from NAP Arcade via Joe Kamenkow; contrasts with $800,000 for generic Hogwarts school license

  • Stern will move factories mid-August 2024

    high confidence · Zach received direct update from Stern; adjusted from early August estimate

  • Stern plans to rerun Stranger Things in 2024 with Netflix's fifth season release

    medium confidence · Described as 'one of the most talked about and upcoming production rumors' per Craig Bobby's segment

  • Brian Eddy's fan layout in Venom is predictable and less exciting despite innovative rapid-lock system

    medium confidence · Kerry Hardy survey reported buyers citing Eddy's predictable fan layout as reason for hesitation

  • Stern spent heavily on Venom marketing with Todd McFarlane and Ozzy Osbourne presence at San Diego Comic Con with zero involvement in final product

    high confidence · Zach characterizes this as 'bizarre and baffling marketing misstep' with 'wasted hype'

  • Tony Todd voices Venom in the pinball machine

    medium confidence · Zach reports reading announcement but notes no confirmation; observed from voice similarity

  • Stern plans Iron Maiden production for summer or second half of 2024

    high confidence · Zach received confirmation it's not canceled; timeline adjusted from earlier expectations

Notable Quotes

  • “I am going to also be a bit of an optimist here and point again back to Brian Eddy's first comeback design in Stranger Things that also had sluggish sales at the start of its production run back in 2019. But once fans got their hands on that machine and the code continued to get developed, people realized what a fun and immersive pinball experience Stranger Things actually was”

    Craig Bobby @ ~18:00 — Provides historical context for Venom's slow start; suggests patience may yield positive results as code matures

  • “I am kind of getting pinball media out on rumors. I never thought that I would be disinterested in rumor titles coming up but honestly, after this last couple months I don't fucking care”

    Zach Manning @ ~90:00 — Expresses frustration with rumor cycle saturation; signals community fatigue with unverified speculation

  • “Warner Brothers wants a whopping $10 million for the licensing fee for a full-asset Harry Potter pinball machine”

    Craig Bobby @ ~28:00 — Reveals major licensing cost barrier; contextualizes industry economics and price pressures

  • “Despite being a gorgeous-looking machine on all three trim levels, thanks to the amazing art package from the king of all pinball artists, Zombie Yeti, it appears Stern's Venom machine may not be selling quite as fast as previously released Stern titles”

    Craig Bobby @ ~15:00 — Acknowledges art quality while reporting sales underperformance; balances praise with market reality

  • “The Rock is not only Michael Bay's best film, it is, I think, the best action movie to have ever been made”

    Zach Manning @ ~85:00 — Enthusiastic pitch for 90s action film theme licensing as future pinball direction

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyZach ManningpersonDennis CreaselpersonBrian EddypersonZombie YetipersonCraig BobbypersonKerry HardypersonJersey Jack Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Stern aggressively filling production backlog during factory move; shipping multiple title runs simultaneously to clear dealer orders before facility relocation

    high · Zach: 'catching very much up on the backlogs of many a dealer's backorder list. So we're getting close to just full in stock'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Stranger Things positioned as recovery model for Venom; initial sluggish sales overcome by mature code and player experience

    medium · Craig: 'Stranger Things that also had sluggish sales at the start... once fans got their hands on that machine and the code continued to get developed, people realized what a fun and immersive pinball experience'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Brian Eddy's fan layout in Venom criticized as predictable and less exciting despite innovative rapid-lock system innovation

    medium · Kerry Hardy survey identifies 'Brian Eddy's predictable fan layout' as key buyer hesitation factor alongside theme weakness

  • $

    market_signal: 90s action film theme wave proposed as next evolution after 'dad rock' era (Foo Fighters as gateway); Speed, Independence Day, Men in Black, Event Horizon, Tremors discussed as viable licenses

    low · Zach proposes 90s films direction and discusses multiple potential themes with Dennis; acknowledged as wishful speculation

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Warner Brothers demanding $10 million for full-asset Harry Potter pinball license; generic Hogwarts school alternative available at $800,000 illustrates major IP cost barrier

    medium · Craig reports rumor via Joe Kamenkow; contrasts $10M full-asset demand with $800K generic license option

Transcript

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0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:13
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. This week on the Pinball Show, Dennis and I discuss demolition derbies, rumor fatigue, Stern Pinball production updates, filling in scheduling holes, updated thoughts on Venom, as well as Venom's sales and the current pinball product marketplace and sales landscape. How Stern Pinball may continue to entice future LE buyers, teasing a Stranger Things pinball rerun later this year. Why spending $10 million on the Harry Potter pinball license may not be a bad idea. Giving the community what they want in new pinball titles, 90s action film themes. He-Man Pinball Talk, exclusive TPS club content on what is wrong with competitive pinball, and rumors of an industry-changing event that may shake up the convention landscape in 2024, as well as pinball market trends and deal of the week. We bring you the goods, even if you have an oversized helmet-inflicted ear wound. You're welcome.
1:16
And I don't know if I've ever been in love I feel it touch me and I feel like something's got to get up. Pinball is a game of kids. And we will. It ain't over.
1:32
No, not here. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. Not well, I still need you around. It's time for the Pinball Show. You don't own me. We might change, yeah. It's pinball with personality. We just might feel good. I will put you around. Well, I will. Hey, what's going on, everybody? It's the Pinball Show. It's episode 134 with Dennis Creasel and myself, Zach Manning. How's everybody doing this week? Dennis, how in the hell are you? I'm fine, and they're fine as well. We are all fine. Almost as fine as a demolition derby in the heat of the summer. Oh, my grandpa used to say, fine as frogs here, split three ways. Speaking of demolition derby, thanks for the layup there, buddy. Have you ever been to a demolition derby? You know, maybe one. I think perhaps one. That was a long ago. In the before times, when the gas was still leaded.
American Pinball
company
Spooky Pinballcompany
Venom Pinballgame
Stranger Things Pinballgame
Harry Potter Pinballgame
John Wick Pinballgame
He-Man and the Masters of the Universe Pinballgame
Tony Toddperson
Joe Kamenkowperson
Dwight Sullivanperson
San Diego Comic Conevent
NAP Arcadeorganization
  • $

    market_signal: Stern's San Diego Comic Con marketing featuring Todd McFarlane and Ozzy Osbourne presence with zero involvement in final Venom machine characterized as 'bizarre and baffling marketing misstep'

    high · Zach states 'wasted hype from McFarlane or Ozzy's assumed involvement in the Venom title that actually didn't exist upon the game's launch'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Zombie Yeti confirmed as head of Stern Pinball art department leading Venom and recent game art packages

    high · Craig describes Zombie Yeti as 'the king of all pinball artists' and credits Venom art to his work; confirmed department role

  • $

    market_signal: Kerry Hardy survey reveals buyers citing Stern's higher pricing structure for all three Venom trim levels as primary reason for purchase hesitation

    high · Zach reports 'thousands of his viewers claiming that those who were choosing not to buy were doing so based on Stern's higher pricing structure for all three trim levels'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern factory move mid-August 2024 with detailed production schedule: Venom rollout through October, James Bond December, Star Wars/Mandalorian and Iron Maiden planned for 2024

    high · Zach: 'mid-August is going to be the big move for Stern Pinball' with specific shipping dates for each title through October and beyond

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Host expresses significant fatigue with unverified speculation, noting community oversaturation with rumors lacking concrete backing

    high · Zach: 'I am kind of getting pinball media out on rumors... I don't fucking care... nothing seems concrete it's all willy-nilly'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Persistent rumors of Stern John Wick pinball and American Pinball He-Man license; unconfirmed but tracked by NAP Arcade

    medium · Craig reports 'persistent rumors that Stern has purchased the licensing for and are developing a John Wick pinball machine, and American Pinball has the license for the 80s cartoon series He-Man'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Venom sales slower than comparable recent Stern releases (Foo Fighters, Mandalorian, James Bond); unspoken LE inventory suggests demand below expectations

    high · Craig notes 'unspoken LE machines left in their factory allocations and have reported lukewarm sales so far on the Pro and Premium trims as well'

    • 2:28
    Yeah, so our county fair was occurring this last weekend, and my wife, she's been wanting to see a demolition derby. Back to whenever we were knee-high to a grasshopper, we would go to the county fair. Even as middle schoolers and high schoolers, Nicole and I, dating then as well, So we would go to the fair and ride the rides and eat the haystack. Do you know what a haystack is, Dennis? That's my favorite. Haystack. Well, since you said you eat it, I must not, because I literally thought of a barn with hay stacked in rectangular bales, which is how we would feed the cows. I'm like chewing my cud right now. No, I'm not eating that kind of haystack. A haystack is like an open Frito. It can also be in an open paper basket or an open whatever, But it's an open Frito bag. Half the Fritos probably poured out. Then chili scooped into said Frito bag. And then cheese and onion and stuff on top, almost like a mixture, a concoction of chili and cheese and Frito yumminess. Okay. I've heard of this. I didn't know the name of it. I've heard of this actual combination, though. And that is very good. So good. But I digress. So she's a gunter girl. And I love that about her. She wanted to go see the demolition derby. We have missed it for several years now. And do we say, you know what? We're going to go see the demolition. Now, overhead, the problem, and we're just getting back from vacation, too. So I was tired, went to a family reunion. Now we've got to go to this.
    3:55
    So we go to it, and all of a sudden, you see, coming over the skyline, the darkest, dankest clouds. The darkest and dankest of clouds. Yes. They were full. It's coming home. Full of Jesus juice, just ready to pour down on us. Is that what the kids call it, Jesus juice, or is that something different? I think that's something different. I think it might be, too.
    4:21
    Decaffeinated Jesus juice was coming down, caffeinated, whatever you want to call it. Kids drink the prime nowadays, and it's very worrisome with caffeine. You probably deal with that in health care. So it's about to rain. But they're going to try to squeeze in the first event of the demolition derby. Hot damn. And once I found out what it was, listener, I put my palms on my face. It was my first thought, Dennis. I cannot wait to tell the world that this is a fucking thing in southern Indiana.
    4:53
    And it was the following. They were like, hey, crowd, we're going to have to probably do a rain check. We're going to have to delay because of rain. Rain's pouring in from the northeast. We're going to have a rain delay, but we're going to try to squeeze in the first event, which is Children's Demolition Derby.
    5:16
    So I'm like, wait a minute. Mom, someone pick up the children. So not only are they putting these kids out here with lightning kind of distant in the background, Then they have these kids in power wheels. And when I say kids, listener, I truly mean like brain-developing still, like 5-year-olds to 10-year-olds in power wheels that their redneck dad with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth has probably jacked up in the garage to go faster than it's supposed to.
    5:53
    Yeah, it's basically the default, but I gave it a combustion engine. And these poor kids had adult-sized, like, motorcycle helmets on that were bobbling around. And these fucking kids were doing a demo derby, hitting each other, whiplashing, their heads snapping back and forth. I could hardly watch it. Like, the previous psychologist in me was like, oh, no, this is really, really bad. These poor frontal lobes just being smashed on the front of the skull over and over and over again. But I couldn't turn away.
    6:32
    I could not. It was like a telenovela. I could not turn away from it. But these poor kids, half of them crying at points whenever they really got jackknifed. And their little bobbly heads just bouncing back and forth. Oh, and I looked around. And I'm like, is it like, am I fucking taking crazy? is this okay like i felt like i went into eyes wide shut kind of thing where i there was an occult and everybody was cool with it but i'm like oh shit i don't know if we should be doing this so yeah children's demolition derby uh in lightning with those poor whiplash injured children one one kid got hit so hard dude he held his ear i think his ear was like bleeding He held his ear, and they just were like, they seen that as like blood in the water, and it was like praying. It was like, man. And he had the littlest Hot Wheel, so they were like, get his ass.
    7:28
    He's injured. Oh, man. The little Hot Wheel. His parents didn't understand. It was off the shelf. It was. It was not modded. It was the small one. It was too much. Oh, man. So, yeah, that was the highlight. Wow. Everybody thought that was normal, except for me. I'm like, oh, my God. You know, it reminds me of my grandfather's third wife. Oh. Yes. We called her Grandma Holly, which she hated, because I think she was younger than my mom. Grandma Holly. Yeah. But anyway, she worked in radiology in Colorado. And this sort of behavior, rodeo parents are like this, apparently. Yeah. So she talked about how, like, there'd be these little kids that would come in from their, you know, the kids rodeo, and they're coming in with broken arms, and, like, their dads are telling them, don't cry. Yeah, don't you cry, boy. Because you've got to be tough. Yes, ma'am. Don't you cry. Don't you show tears. Don't you be a pussy. Broken bones are normal. Pulled together. That's right.
    8:32
    I'm so ashamed of you now. I don't know if it's a... I have no son. I don't know whether it's just the changing of times Because a lot of this stuff that people turn their nose up to I'm still like, eh, whatever But I'm like, is this truly me worrying about their little, you know, front lobes? Or what is this? No, you're watching You're actually watching the potential creation of criminals Right? Exactly Yeah Phineas Gage out here Where's the rod at? Smash it It's like, oh, well, little Timmy's going to have anger aggression issues permanently moving forward. That's right. This poor amygdala. Oh, no. I enjoyed my haystack while I watched. But I want you just to imagine how much better it would have been had they done it in the rain. Oh, my God. One of us drowning in the mud. Help me. It's like, welcome to Verdun. That's a World War I reference for you folks. Only look it up if you have a strong constitution. We were ready for it because they were like, we'll still facilitate this race in the rain. It's the man trying to bring us down with the lightning and such. So go find shelter. We're like, find shelter for the next hour. This is after the kiddie race. The storm is coming. Return to your homes. Nicole's like, do we want to go? I'm like, I'm not going into an open shed metal building. Like, no, we're going home. What goes on there hanging out for like all the sides and rotor blades? sardine people in there with live socks. This is great. Just exposed edge sheet metal everywhere. Gosh, wow. So yeah, that was my weekend. Well, that was fun. I've just been working. Working on your Sinbad. Yes, yes. Yeah, hosted a game night. People wanted to play pinball. Had some friends over from Seattle who had not been playing pinball in Seattle, which I told them, you guys have a really impressive pinball scene up there. You can go to a lot of barcades. Check that out. But anyway. It's no Kansas City. Come on. So we put in some four-player games on it. We didn't play everything I had, but I would say so the listeners know. The reactions were, yeah, Sinbad was hated. They just died way too quick. Maybe I should have started them on Sinbad so they could have played an older game first. I think they were fairly indifferent to Hoops and Godzilla. Star Trek and Deadpool were the most popular, and I think Deadpool, by far, was I think they just kind of understood they liked how funny it was and the shots were like it was easy for me to explain shoot this one scoop spot and you're going to start your battles and then otherwise they're like why are we collecting burritos and I was like those are not burritos those are chimichangas do you not know anything that's another story oh ok but we want them right well yeah that's right and they liked Little Deadpool they did like that why is he on the Playfield and why is he cute? And then they heard him being all adorable, and they're like, oh, his head bobbles. Oh, the unicorn. This is Stern's high dollar toy, Deadpool on a spring, inspired by TIE Fighter on a spring.
    11:41
    Do you think that Craig Bobby would do well in a demolition derby? You know, my fear is that Craig would disguise himself as that stock, non-modded Hot Wheel, and I would worry for it. It was a little blue, like Spider-Man Hot Wheels. Like, Dad didn't even mod it up to look like Grave Digger or nothing. This is how Venoms are created. That boy is going to be like, I need a symbiote. This is much novel. Look, I swear to you, Nicole was like, I guarantee you next year, that little boy is going to come back and he's going to kick everybody's ass. Like, he's now been shamed and he's going to come back with a vengeance. Yeah, so she was wanting to come back next year. You know, wear one of those helmets from Mad Max 2 or something.
    12:29
    He's got the mouth harness, the banging mouth guard. You all know that Dr. Demolition Derby, I was born to it.
    12:48
    Hello and welcome back to the Pinball Show's Top Stories. I'm Craig Bobby Well the Venom release from Stern Pinball has come and gone As has the annual San Diego Comic Con Which is always a flurry of activity and rumors As the world of movies, video games, comics, music, cosplay and pinball Collide in an amazing mashup of awesomeness But now that the smell of weed, nerd BO and pinball FOMO Has finally settled down somewhat but we can look back and try and determine how successful was the Venom launch for Stern Pinball and what potential fans and buyers' reactions have been to Brian Eddy's latest pinball creation. Well, despite being a gorgeous-looking machine on all three trim levels, thanks to the amazing art package from the king of all pinball artists, Zombie Yeti, it appears Stern's Venom machine may not be selling quite as fast as previously released Stern titles like Foo Fighters, Mandalorian, or even James Bond. Gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong, gong. Say what? Yes, after two post-release streams with Jack Danger to showcase Stern's premium LE and Pro Edition models of Venom over the last two weeks, potential buyers of the game that were not already committed to purchasing one have remained on the fence, leaving many distributors with unspoken LE machines left in their factory allocations and have reported lukewarm sales so far on the Pro and Premium trims as well. Now, it's not unusual for buyers to be a little fickle in the heat of the moment once a reveal has been made by any of the major manufacturers. People are rolling mainly on type, conjecture, and their own ideas on what these machines may or may not look like and play like based on the very little real pre-release information that pinheads have access to. So when Eddie's fan layout was finally revealed against the albeit award-winning artistry of Zombie Eddie, people seemed to be pressing the pause button on if they wanted to purchase this newest Cornerstone release from Stern. According to a recent online survey by YouTube pinball reviewer and popular pinball media personality Kerry Hardy, thousands of his viewers claiming that those who were choosing not to buy were doing so based on Stern's higher pricing structure for all three trim levels, a weaker game theme in the comic book version of Venom, and Brian Eddy's predictable fan layout as their main drivers for waiting. Now, I will say that I believe Stern's innovative rapid-lock system in this game has continued to spark interest in this title, despite what some are calling a growing fatigue for Marvel-themed products and movies. Yes, the rapid ball lock mechs, which once fully loaded with balls during gameplay, fire balls back at the player almost instantly once targets or rollovers are triggered, providing blisteringly fast gameplay and ball returns, which may provide an unexpected level of difficulty and excitement, despite a rather obvious, and less exciting, fan layout for Venom. I will say that Dwight Sullivan's always evolving and creative code for this game continues to be another bright spot for this title so far that could also be a game and sales driver for Venom down the road as the code matures further and more players finally get their hands on this title. Last year's cancellation of Venom and the strange presence of Todd McFarlane and Ozzy Osbourne in the Stern booth at last year's San Diego Comic Con, despite having what appears to be now zero involvement with Stern's Venom machine, also can't be left unsaid as one of Stern's more bizarre and baffling marketing missteps with just a ton of wasted hype from McFarlane or Ozzy's assumed involvement in the Venom title that actually didn't exist upon the game's launch.
    16:50
    Now, while I am not disagreeing with these above reasons for buyers' hesitation or downright trending down of Venom, I am going to also be a bit of an optimist here and point again back to Brian Eddy's first comeback design in Stranger Things that also had sluggish sales at the start of its production run back in 2019. But once fans got their hands on that machine and the code continued to get developed, people realized what a fun and immersive pinball experience Stranger Things actually was, to the point that demand for that game continues to be sky high on the aftermarket and is the source of one of the most talked about and upcoming production rumors for Stern, which is a vaulted Stranger Things in 2024 for Stern, as Netflix releases their fifth and final season of that now iconic TV series. But you guessed it, we shall have to wait and see. So have no fear, Venom and Stern fans, it's very early days for this title to deem it a sales success or failure, as Stern begins to now ship units into locations and homes around the globe, which will allow the pinball-playing public a chance to finally play and experience Venom Pinball for themselves. And quickly to round out this week's top stories, courtesy of NAP Arcade, we have persistent rumors that Stern has purchased the licensing for and are developing a John Wick pinball machine, and American Pinball has the license for the 80s cartoon series He-Man and the Masters of the Universe. Wait for it. By the power of Red Skull.
    18:30
    And over at Jersey Jack Pinball, we have more Harry Potter news from theme spoiler and pinball producer Joe Kamenkow again where he claims that he had offered Warner Brothers four million dollars for the Harry Potter license to no avail. Again, courtesy of the pinball news site Nap Arcade is hearing that despite all of the noise that Jersey Jack has the Harry Potter license that it will not be a license that will contain all of the Harry Potter assets. Oh my god.
    19:16
    That was just crazy. Rumor has it that Warner Brothers wants a whopping $10 million for the licensing fee for a full-asset Harry Potter pinball machine, and that JJP or another pinball company did purchase a generic Harry Potter license based on the famous Hogwarts school from Harry Potter, which cost a much more reasonable $800,000. What might a Hogwarts school pinball machine look like, you might ask? Well, think along the lines of the new video game Hogwarts Legacy, or in pinball terms, think of the lack of assets in Stern's Jurassic Park. Oh, goddammit. Oh, goddammit. And in code news this week, we have new code from Spooky Pinball for their Scooby-Doo pinball machine, featuring a new code mode for Daphne. Hmm? Ruby-roo! Yeah! Well, that's all for this week. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    20:21
    Thanks again, Craig Bobby. Much appreciated. That's a lot of stories to cover this episode. I think we can do it, though, Dennis. We'll start with CERN Pinball. In the news as always, production updates. This last week or two, they've been shipping Avengers Premium pinball machines, as well as Godzilla Premiums, Foo Fighters Pro, and Premium machines. So a lot of different titles, as they are closing out, getting ready to do the big move, they're making all types of stuff over there. And really, honestly, listener, catching very much up on the backlogs of many a dealer's backorder list. So we're getting close to just full in stock. We'll talk about the one title that still rules them all here soon. But that's what's been shipping. In August here, we still have Jurassic Park Pros. that are going to be rolling out before the move. I did get an update. The move looks like it's going to happen mid-August now. I was estimating it to be the beginning of August. It's mid-August. Mid-August is going to be the big move for Stern Pinball. So I anticipate them cranking out some Jurassic Parks over the next week or so and then going towards the move. And then I guess at the end of August, rolling out those location Venom Pros, probably from that new factory, and then rolling into mid-September being the Venom LEs, late September being Venom Premiums, and then October, as we said before, Deadpool Pro and Premiums, as well as a very small run of Foo Fighter Pro and Premiums. Now, here's the change for listeners. Dennis, remember we had that big hole in November? The hole that I said was probably going to be filled with either Foo Fighters or Godzillas? You did say that. It didn't make for interesting podcasting, but you did say that. And lo and behold, we have, I think, a partial hole fill, right? Don't you hate that when you can't fill the hole? Mm-hmm. The entirety of the hole. And it sounded better in my mind. Yeah, this isn't really working. So what's going to be the proverbial hot dog in the hallway?
    22:18
    Yeah, and sadly, he might be big, but he also may be small. Godzilla. We're getting Godzilla premiums. They're calling it, you know, November, December-ish. A run there. So Godzilla, king of monsters, not king of hallways. I can't choose Godzilla with a little wiener. Like, so big. Poor guy. Radioactive and huge, but hung like an exilium. Exilium.
    22:49
    Godzilla premiums are now November, December-ish. I still think that leaves room. We'll talk about later what could fill that spot, but November, December-ish. You're so desperate for it to be something interesting. But is Godzilla premium not interesting? Why can you not be amused by Mechagodzilla tummy grab? Hey, I still have backwards, so, yeah. Exactly. This is needed. Let them fight. James Bond, 007 Pro and Premium is happening still in December. If not moved out, we'll see. I don't know why everybody's talking about, like, oh, February is when we get. No, February, we get nothing in February. What happens is December, late December, we get an announcement. And January, early January, into the end of January is when they start producing location pros for a cornerstone. It's happened, like, the last three years. I don't know why people keep on not... I think a lot of them actually just end up playing it in February, so they're kind of conflating it. Maybe that's it. And then March is when they typically will announce that they do another Cornerstone, like Foo Fighters. They announce it then, and then April is kind of when we start seeing those roll out of the factory. March being a lot of showtimes like TPF and Louisville Show and stuff. So that's how that happens. 2024, still Star Wars, and Mandalorian bumped back into there. as well as I think they still plan to do an Iron Maiden run as of right now. That will be probably the summer or second half of 2024.
    24:17
    But they didn't say, because we were wondering, is it canceled, is it done? No, they still plan to run it. It could always change, but it's not going to be until later on next year. But what about Rush?
    24:31
    Right, eh? Might want to lay down for this one. Watch, he's going to be like, you sons of bitches, it's coming in November and I can't say anything.
    24:43
    Geddy Lee can fill that hallway. Accessories update. This last week they were shipping their James Bond 007 toppers, Artblade shooter rods. It's all coming out. I didn't get the armor yet. I don't know if that was just a me thing. I don't think any dealer's got that. But the armor likely this week coming. But it was nice to see a quick turnaround on announcement and release of the James Bond stuff. Woo-hoo. Avengers armor has been shipping this past week as well. And people are primed up for that. I thought that would just kind of sit in the inventory. You know, it's getting sucked up pretty quick. August is still Iron Maiden Aces High Topper and the Elvira Topper towards the end of the month there. October is Avengers Topper to go with that armor that you got. November is going to be the second run of those Rush Toppers and Expression Lighting. And Q1 of 2024 is the second run of Godzilla Topper. But on to Venom.
    25:37
    Did you know that the voice of Venom in the pinball machine is Tony Todd, the Candyman? I read that when the announcement came out, but then I didn't see a confirmation. The voice sounded that way to me, though. And I believe he has voiced Venom in cartoons. Oh, okay. Of course, to me, he's always Candyman. Oh, he's so iconic for Candyman. He is Candyman. Nobody can ever take it away from him. But there was, oh, when someone, I think it was on one of the Facebook threads, someone had mentioned that Tony was doing the voicing for Venom, and someone goes, oh, my favorite Klingon. And I was like, aw. He actually played several Klingons for Star Trek. I did not know that either. Yep. Wow. They're pretty good. Wow. Yeah, I think what a great voiceover. I also loved his character in The Rock. I don't listen to soft ass shit I'm going to have to IMDB this guy I just Candyman I know him as Candyman Have you seen The Rock with Sean Connery? Yeah I just don't remember him He's the mercenary Of course he is And Nick Cage goes Do you know the song Rocketman? And that's where the song is I need to go back I haven't watched that song for a while It is He's a peach for hours It is Yes. No, that's face-off. That's face-off. But, yeah, no, The Rock is not only Michael Bay's best film, it is, I think, the best action movie to have ever been made.
    27:12
    You hear that, Sperrin? Let's get a pen going. The Rock. I'm sure getting Nick Cage to do voice work won't be that expensive. We need to go back into the 90s for those 90s action films. You know, I know some people are excited to move past the dad rock and like Foo Fighters is the gateway to that. But to me, Foo Fighters is supposed to be the gateway to 90s films, which I want to explore more. That's where I want to go, 90s films, because my wife and I just watched her favorite movie. Oh, this is why I love this woman, Dennis. Her favorite film of all time is none other than the Keanu Reeves starred in Sandra Bullock action thriller Speed. And I would love to have a pinball machine around. I think it hokey enough in pop culture that having Keanu Reeves be at his breakout performance don slow down under 50 That would be great as a pinball machine I mean, there are so many.
    28:15
    Again, licenses became bigger, especially with Daddy East slash Sega in the 90s, that we did get a number of movies. Independence Day. We got some good stuff. Yeah, but there are plenty. Like Men in Black. Why didn't we get Men in Black? That's from 97. We should have had Men in Black.
    28:33
    Timing not great with Will Smith right now, but... No, but back then the timing would have been perfect. How about a Brendan Fraser classic, The Mummy? That was 99. That's Greg Bones, like one of his dream themes. Oh, it's a great movie. It really is. It's a great, fun movie. I was thinking you were going to go Brendan Fraser and see No Man. Oh. We saw... You know, I don't know about that one with Pinball. He's a caveman.
    29:04
    Yes. Man, there's so many good 90s films that we've got to. How about another 97 movie? How about the Tommy Lee Jones classic, Volcano? Oh, no, not that again. Why is that referenced so much on this podcast? Or Tommy Lee Jones. We already got Batman Forever. Is that not enough? I don't think I've still never played Batman Forever. You know I want Event Horizon. That was also 97, incidentally. Oh, God. You like comedy? Lake Placid? Comedy action combined? That's not good. The comedy films in the 90s that were the greatest, you still poo-poo? I'm wearing a Billy Madison shirt right now. Right now. For all the listeners of Billy Madison. Billy Madison would sell, so I can't say it's a bad pick. Happy Gilmore?
    29:53
    Spooky could do seven. What's in the box? That's right. The box has to be a toy. With his wife's head bobbling out. Wife's head on the spring. Inspired by the TIE fighter on the spring.
    30:10
    What's in the box? You want to get the golf crowd, the crow. Oh, man. That would be a – I think that one actually might work for a lot of people. I think it could. Especially – I was never into it, but I think it could. I didn't know the character. or anything, but there's a whole history involved. Tremors! What about Tremors? Kevin Bacon Tremors, yeah. Absolutely. Is Reba in it? Possibly. I forgot. What's the main guy? He plays in all these films. I forget. He was the surly one. Oh. He's trying to teach Kevin Bacon the way of Tremors. Was that Fred Ward? It might be.
    30:53
    Or do you mean Because they had, so yeah, Reba McIntyre. It was Fred Ward. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Fred Ward plays one character, certainly. Reba McIntyre. I think that's who you mean. Yep. Reba plays. She's the wife to Michael Gross' character, the Gummers, with all the firearms. Yes, she plays Heather Gummer. Yep. Heather and Burt Gummer.
    31:20
    And Michael Gross was in it, remember? Yeah, yeah. He's her husband. Okay. See, that's what could be farmed. Victor Wong is in it. That guy was amazing in everything. Victor Wong was Big Trouble in Little China, and he was in Three Ninjas. Remember Three Ninjas? Yes, I remember Three. I don't think we need Three Ninjas. Yes. No.
    31:46
    A few good men. I don't know if I'm a law drama, but. But I want the truth, Multivolve. Does that work? It might not work. Not sure. It's got to be a hurry up. You know what? As we're falling into the trap of talking about themes on a podcast, I've got to tell you. We'll jump into the discussion of Venom here in a second. But is it just me or I'm kind of getting pinball media out on rumors. I never thought that I would be disinterested in rumor titles coming up but honestly, after this last couple months I don't fucking care I could care less because nothing seems concrete it's all willy-nilly I'm kind of over it it's so pervasive at this point I dropped Rumor Corner off of EGP I heard that and I actually applauded it I'm like, good for you I can't, I can't This is like, ugh. Just over it. The meta-commentary that was Rumor Corner on the discussion of rumors has now kind of, it feels like it 180'd. Everyone has just kind of gotten kind of worse about it now. You're not my son.
    33:02
    But I am better. I am a rumor. It's just, poor little Rumor Corner is now the stock Hot Wheels vehicle in the pit of the demolition derby. Spider-Man. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why they came up. It's just lately I'm like, oh. It's like you just throw something and it's a rumor. Well, yeah. I mean, it's always been that way. Yeah, but there was some stock behind it. You know what? If I'm putting this out there, I feel really good about it. I have stuff. Maybe there was, but I think some people just acted that way. Here's my theory. Let's see. Listeners, you can write in to thepinballshow at gmail.com and let Zach know whether or not you agree with this theory. My theory on this and why it's happened now is we're in this really strange time where we had all of these game drops, especially early in the year, March in particular, where you remember, I mean, a lot of people still hadn't even experienced Scooby-Doo yet. And then all of the stuff, Foo Fighters and Galactic Tank Force and Godfight, you know, you know, you know, so I think because there was that huge like glut of titles to talk about, people are now filling the vacuum of that experience. Like that dopamine high they don't want to lose. And they're dumping rumors in to try and fill it. Like we're supposed to expect six titles to talk about at any given time. And this is not something we were ever used to. And I think people don't know how to react to it. And the way they're doing it is I want to act like there's always six almost pending games at any moment. And the only way to feed that is with an exponential number of rumors to possibly fill that half dozen slots. That makes sense. That's my current working theory. Yeah, it actually does make sense. So Venom, that's not a rumor. That's a reality. All right. So since we've recorded last listener, you heard our initial impressions of just the – we didn't at that point in time have any gameplay that Dennis and I analyzed. We looked at the pictures and the preview via sizzle reel of Stern Pinball's Venom. Since then, we have now seen, I speak for myself, seen some gameplay at Comic-Con from the Dead Flip streaming channel and Atlanta's Southern Fried Gaming Expo this last weekend through Marco Specialties and I believe Raccoon City Drive. I'm so sorry. I think something like that. So I've seen some gameplay. A lot of people have seen some gameplay. You yourself, Dennis, still haven't had time to catch any of that, correct? No, nothing substantive that I would be able to weigh in a lot on. So what I'm taking away, because I wonder where we're at. I guess you can still discuss where you're at a week later now, your current thoughts of Venom. It was interesting to roll out people high and low on certain aspects of it, confused on other aspects. What was nice is to see gameplay really clear up, for better or worse, really clear up some of the questions that people had as to what type of game this is. I think after the different streams, this game overall has been very positively discussed in the community and media and such. The game looks a hell of a lot faster than even I was anticipating, looking at pictures of the locks and stuff. It's almost like a rapid-fire locking system, which I think is novel, unique. I like the idea of that. And even the complexity of the rules that were laid out by Dwight, I will also give a shout-out to Corey Stepp, Dwight's right-hand man, and others like Raymond Davidson and the rest of the team. But it is going to be just as complex, novel, new, a new horizon for pinball as we were speculating it to be. And thus far, hearing the feedback from attendees at the SFGE, the Southern Friday Show, So people are really receptive. People are really, really liking this game. So when we were talking about a dip in the market, a softening of the market, and sales of Venom not being as high as sales of a game a year ago, I'm still going back to I don't necessarily think this is a Venom thing per se. I think maybe this is just a timing thing because people seem to really be enjoying what they're seeing and playing now from Venom. And I have, while we've been talking, I have actually got the gameplay, so I've been watching it. Okay. Obviously, I can't listen to it because I'm listening to you. Yeah. So I have been watching the gameplay. What's worth listening to me or Dwight?
    37:37
    Oh, so mean. Dwight's got passion behind his words. He's my favorite person to talk to in pinball, so. And whereas you, I just hear jaded and tired.
    37:47
    True. But the, yeah, like seeing the mechanisms work and stuff has been really, really interesting. And, yeah, that ball lock release thing to get that speed up is really smooth, smoother than I thought it would be.
    38:00
    And it hits a switch in the back. Like, it's immediate that it's already, like, physically, a lot of games do that to try to do a transformation or, like, a nonstop physics of what the ball would be. But, no, this is speeding up any gaps that could be there. I also thought the – it was nice to see that the carnage, very target, seems really responsive to that captive ball smacking it and wanting to go back quite a bit. It doesn't get stuck at each nodule. Yeah, yeah. Or that you barely move it because it's not an efficient shot. Yep. They didn't put Rogers in, is what I'm saying.
    38:40
    You were worried about that. Yeah, I was because of my experience with that one. But, okay. So where are you at now that not only you have more info, but you've heard from more people? Where are you at? Well, that's the thing. I mean, I had been hearing, well, I hadn't until today really looked at the footage of the gameplay. I had been hearing people responding to the footage. And like you, I've been hearing mostly positive things, at least regarding the premium LE. The Pro. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I've been hearing good things about the speed on the Pro, but still, it sounds like from almost everyone that it's sort of, yeah, I think I'll start with that. I think part of the issue is because of the game state difference and how interesting that is with the rules and people who have hands-on with both saying, yes, it's like when you switch symbiotes, it is like the gameplay is different because the layout essentially changes on you but not on the Pro, that I think a lot of people are kind of like, okay, well, the Pro doesn't exist, so if I want this game, I have to go premium or above. I think that might be part of the issue. It's what people did with Godzilla. I mean, you've got to have the building, you've got to have the turning table. Right, right, right. The thing was, I mean, Godzilla, and I've had this initial reaction on a lot of premium games where over time I've been like, you know what, the Pros feel pretty good. But I can't remember. I think it might have been Travis, Miri on Triple Drain. I was listening to them, and I think he said he had been hearing, this would not surprise me, that this is seen as the biggest difference between a pro to the premium tier since Led Zeppelin in a lot of people's eyes. And remember, Led Zeppelin never recovered from that the pro was basically a really stripped-down version.
    40:26
    But I've heard some people say the pro feels like it's a the pen. That feels that stripped to them. And I don't think the BOM is that stripped, but the difference, the fact what mechs they decided to take out to make the Pro the Pro price, it stands out to a lot of people. I've heard that too, but I think it would be very hard to convince me of that, listener, because the Pro has arguably the coolest toy still in it. And that's those speed locks in the locking system that has purpose with the different villains based on how high you stack those speed locks. so you get to choose how many multiballs. So, for me, I think that is the best toy in the game, and it's still in the pro, so I would have to disagree with a lot of people saying it is overly stripped down. I think it might be pros in the long term might be still sought after because you still get the code, but I get the whole conceptualization of this game is choose your host, change physically the game, and you absolutely missed that whole conceptualization on the pro. Absolutely. And that's where I went. And longer term, I mean, it's all speculative because, obviously, they won't have this option otherwise. But I do wonder, I think a lot of people at this state are saying, I would rather have lost the speed ball locks to have had the changing play field.
    41:51
    And I don't know that that's the right answer, actually, for the game. But I do understand where they see those mechs and they go, that's nice. It's neat that I think to a lot of them they see it and they go, without thinking about the rules aspect of it and what you talked about with the stacking and all of that, that they might just look at it. And then when they look at it, they go, okay, so this just means that the feeds go faster. I'd rather have game state change than just the balls be faster thrown at me. Yeah, and it's hard to say. Until I get my hands on it, you're probably the same way, Dennis. It's hard to know if that difference really does exist or not. But I still think with the captive ball, you get the captive ball carnage, you get the speed locks.
    42:31
    I do not see it as the pin with Consider. I don't see any of that. So what do you – because, again, while I have been hearing that the reaction has been positive to the gameplay, the rules, and the layout, at least on the higher ends of the layout,
    42:48
    but I've also been hearing that it's not like there's been a surge in sales since these videos came out. either. That's true. I haven't heard from you on this. This is other distros that I've heard from. That is true. We still, we're continuing to get just like any release, you'll get a sale or two here or there, but it doesn't seem like it's a reaction to, if you will. And that still goes with my theory of this is more of the market right now, the time of where pinball's at right now and hobbies in general are at right now compared to a year ago or two years ago, et cetera. I don't think it's so much a Venom thing. I think, if anything, it's a Venom thing. It's because it's a Venom thing. I'm being cute there. What I mean is the rules kind of, people are good with it. The layout, even at the beginning, people are like, oh, where's all the tools? People understand it more now. I don't think you're going to hear anybody argue that, no, it's just that layout that I don't get. I don't think you're going to hear people argue about the mechs or anything. I think the art, people might have their opinions on it, but holistically, everybody loves the art package. I think what's left is the only downside to the actual release and the product that is Venom Pinball is the theming is not like this, I've got to have this theme kind of thing, which makes people hesitate a bit. But the other part of the why sales are not as strong as a Foo Fighters or a Godzilla or anything, I think it's just timing right now. I think there's probably a reason that they rolled out Venom in the summer here, when historically sales in the summer are typically, they tend to be the lowest.
    44:36
    So I don't know. It makes sense to me. Yeah, I think both your theories are correct. Again, I don't know the percentages involved with how much of it is. Even back when it was mostly operators buying games, summer was the low-selling time period. Probably because people weren't going to the arcades as much in the summer, just like homeowners are out and about more in the summer. So, yeah, that being a factor, I do think makes sense. I agree with you. Venom is, I don't know if I want to say it's a weak theme, but I think based off of the sales, it definitely isn't strong. It's not a bad theme, no. No, well, I mean, any Marvel character is probably a decent theme, But, you know, arguably, would it have been better if we're just sticking with Marvel to have done Black Panther? Or I'm trying to think what hasn't had a game yet that maybe has only shown up in a, you know, as like an ensemble in like Avengers or something. Yeah, Doctor Strange would be another one, which has had recent films. I think that's kind of where Venom would be, like a Doctor Strange kind of thing. Where plenty of people love it, but it's like, is it strong enough by itself? yeah it's just you know I don't know I mean the thing is I think the logic was probably well we're going to do comic venom but we know it's had some movies from Sony so maybe that'll right but again when you look at this play field I'm not seeing the Sony movies but I think most of these characters are not represented in those films whereas even though Deadpool was comic Deadpool people just look at like they oh they're like oh those are all X-Men characters and X-Men villains and Deadpool and then we remember the movie so they knew all the characters that were on the play field and they don't here. This looks like a bunch of samey looking different colored Venoms. Over the last I don't know, a decade or so Disney has taken a swing at let's showcase their villains in their animated series more. Let's do a Maleficent. Let's focus on the villains and make them a character in and of themselves. So maybe Stern was trying to do that with licensing Venom as he's arguably out of the Marvel characters, maybe the most iconic villain to the jail public. I think maybe. So starting off, let's try a villain as the focus of because they're going to continue working with Marvel as they will continue working with Disney and the licenses they threw Star Wars and such. Yeah, it's not, again, I don't think it was a bad pick. I would hope that they went in not thinking like, oh, it's Venom, he's beloved. But again, like, Godzilla's done well, and it's not exactly like Godzilla's selling off the store shelves normally. So, I mean, they know that if the game's good, it doesn't... They can overcome it because they're stern and they'll get enough exposure. But what do you think about the theory that some people that historically perhaps would have bought this to play it for a little while, knowing that given the production counts and how long it takes games to get out, that they would have been able basically to get rid of it and not lose any money. Yeah. And they're not buying Venom now because they're looking and they're going to be like, you know what, if I buy this, I'm eating a loss. Even if I buy an LE, I'm eating a loss. Yeah, we were discussing this for the select few that are part of our The Pinball Show live monthly hangouts. We had a great discussion, and we'll repeat some of it here. Whereas, yes, I'm with you. I think that that is what I'm talking about when I'm saying this is more the timing and the landscape of where we're at in the calendar of events, in the year of events of pinball. Yeah, people could take flyers in the past because they knew that there were so many games backordered. I'm waiting on my Iron Maiden to be made six months from now, so I'm going to take a flyer on this because I know before that gets run, I can sell this maybe for a couple hundred dollar loss or maybe even more than what I paid for. whereas now people are seeing that secondary market. You having to, when you make that decision, you're very likely going to lose money when you open something out of the box or drive it off the lot, which is normal. That's normal in consumer electronics, consumer sales of anything. So we're getting back to the time a little bit closer pre-pandemic where, yes, people are more conscientious about how they make their purchases and how they build their collections. Because, let's face it, this is not going to change people building collections. No. That's silly. The fucking sky is falling for so many people. You know why, listener? Because it's nothing to talk about, and they're bored.
    49:18
    Pinball is still fucking awesome. People are still going to collect and play the hell out of pinball. And when it gets a little bit colder around the Midwest and around the north of the United States, people are going to buy pinball machines more than they would in the South. It's just how it works. sky's not falling. Yeah, I agree. I mean, no, I don't see any major seismic change-ups to the industry broadly, but I do. I'll throw a couple other questions out. But there are LEs that are available. So there are a couple pieces I want to ask. First, kind of getting broader again across all the tiers, but what do you think about the theory that pinball has at this stage, and I don't want to overstate it in the sense that, Again, because I don't agree that there's any sort of seismic changeup going on to the industry. But that these games are, given the current state of the market, are positioned at too high of a price point. And so people are just going to be a lot more choosy because they've inflated the prices more than people's paychecks have inflated and people's investments have inflated. So the games are disproportionately expensive now. And we're seeing the side effects of that now that the demand is falling, that people are just like, I'm not spending this much for an okay theme with a decent layout and interesting rules. But that's just not enough to buy. I don't think it's that. I don't think it's the price of it per se. I really don't. I'm not sure because, again, I want to broaden it a little bit. I'll focus back in on with my second question on Venom again. But, again, you know, looking at the pricing that's happened with Centaur Revisited, what's been going on with JJP ever since they did their Toy Story 4 price spikes, and they're struggling to move units. And, I mean, I think Toy Story 4 plays way better than Guns N' Roses, but it sure ain't showing the sales. Sure. So I'm wondering if price is a factor at this point. I mean, price obviously is always a factor with people at some point. But this, you know, and that's where I get back to the, I don't want to necessarily say that Stern has priced themselves too high up, but in the case of Venom, getting back to that thing that we're hearing from people when they look at the Pro and they're like, it's not enough there, and they can't justify the new, quote-unquote, new premium pricing, like maybe with Foo they could, but now they're like, no, no, it's still fundamentally a fan layout. I just can't. I can't get that high. People forget, even if sales were not as high as the latest Elwynn, And these games, they're still selling a lot of Venom. Like, we're still selling a lot of Venom. Our order, you know, the initial order for Venom would make a lot of people blush. Like, we're still selling a lot of them. But if we rewind, listener, let's go on a little journey real quick here.
    52:01
    Here's how times change. And it's a waxing and waning. It's a fluctuation. It's a real live market. Godzilla came out in 2021, and it really changed a lot of things. Not only for better, but for some worse, too. The threshold and the expectation of what pinball is now kind of changed. 2021, we had that, and we had them coming out with 1,000. Remember, there's 1,000 LEs of Godzilla. But did it matter? No. They sold out immediately because the prior game, Mandalorian, was 750 LEs. Dynamite theme, license, and whatnot, so it sold out immediately. But if you remember, Mandalorian then had huge sales initially, but then kind of tapered off a little bit quicker than other games. And then we go into Godzilla. That's the dynamite, one of the greatest, if not the greatest, pinball machines ever made. They continue to make a boatload of those. So that kind of skewed the whole system. And then after that, they come out with Rush. Now, Rush was also in a time where, historically, again, sold a lot of them, but not the greatest sales. But what saved that? What made people continue to clamor for that title? It was things like the general landscape and the timing of getting games was tough. It was the new Stern, so you could play it. It was focused more towards competitive pinball players and balancing score-wise. So you got a lot of the media pumping it up as well. So we've got that. So that trailed off, too. We got 1,000 in production, but we were still in, hey, it's hard to get. You can turn around and still sell these LEs and not lose any money, maybe even make money. And then the next following after that was James Bond. So I think the ball was already kind of rolling. It's just nobody stopped to look at the ball rolling. James Bond comes out. Then you started people pausing a little bit more, like more overt pausing. Wait a minute. The code, I don't know. Is this too much of a dated theme? It looks cool, but I'm not so sure. Ellie sat for quite a bit longer than they did for the previous releases for the last couple of years. So this wasn't a cliff dive from James Bond to then Venom. It's like, oh, wait a minute, nobody's buying Ellie's now. Oh, no, it's not the case. They're probably buying Ellie's at the same speed as to which they were buying James Bond, but because the landscape is more soft right now. In other words, if we were to release Venom at the time that James Bond was released, I would argue that Venom may be a better LE seller than even James Bond at that time. I really feel like that because there's more boxes being checked on Venom than arguably there is or was on James Bond. But then we got lucky, and after James Bond, we hit the low expectations that everybody had for Foo Fighters. Let's not lie to each other. Low expectations when we heard Foo Fighters. And not to knock Jack Danger, but he was a new designer. You know what the hell we're going to get from Jack Danger, right? It just so happened that the expectations were so miscued, and that game shoots phenomenally, and Jack Danger apparently is a freaking designing genius. The rules were there, and they didn't do Foo Fighters. They did an animated awesome zombie yeti alien fighting Foo Fighters game, and it became the end thing. So then everybody had to have that. That's why LEs sold out immediately for that. Coming into the release of Foo Fighters at 1,000 LEs and the release of a James Bond or even a hell of Mandalorian LE, I would put money on people saying those LEs are going to sell out a hell of a lot quicker than any Foo Fighters. So that changed around. And then after that, people got a freaking cavalcade of Pulp Fiction, Galactic Tank Force, Godfather. They were just hit with new titles. Bam, bam, bam. So then we come to the summer when everybody's vacationing. They're out. Venom comes out. Even if it checks the boxes, the market's a little fatigued right now. Doesn mean in the long run it will be I think Venom will do sales very very well And I remind people of what happened when Deadpool came out Sorry that was a lot of talking Dennis
    56:19
    Well, I think the final thing, though, and I think I might have a read on where you stand given your sort of soliloquy that you launched into there, but I was going to ask, does Stern need to reduce the LE count on these games? Not at this point, but I just mean moving forward. And I'll give my stance. It's like, given all this, knowing they were going to release it in the slow time, if the read was, I don't think they should be doing 1,000 LEs anymore. I think they need to be looking at 500 or less. I can see the argument there. Because they're not special enough at 1,000. They're just too common. Too common. Raise the price and lower the count if you need to, but it's too common. And that's the talking point right now. And if you're listening to podcasts or watching streams or reading articles, everybody kind of positioning themselves saying, hey, you know what? Since sales weren't immediately sold out, I don't think Stern was ever used to LE selling out immediately from the inception of them creating the LE model. So I don't think they're necessarily concerned about things selling out day one. I think they'd like they sell through day one. So frankly, that's all they care. Now, they're smart enough to look into the future as to, well, we don't want to overload our distribution network. Thus, they'll slowly start buying less and less and less. But do I think that they need to reduce LEs? I am going to actually argue no.
    57:45
    Now, that's what I expected you to say. Not to create an entertaining point of view here that would be probably the only one that people are taking in media. I think that it's easy to say, yeah, reduce the LE count yourself. Okay. But go with me here. Stern Pinball making a decision that abrupt after one release would be asinine. It would be so silly. Historically, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, right? That's the old psychology 101 thing.
    58:16
    And past behavior predicts people buy the hell out of L.A.s immediately. They just do. So to get rid of that whole fundamental notion of, okay, you know what? We didn't sell out day one, so we've got to cut them back in half or three, four. No, no. I think it would be silly because if a rumored Jaws does come out by Keith Elwin, they will kick themselves in the asses for not having $1,000 to sell. This is Venom, and this is a perfect storm of things. And given the perfect storm that it is, it's still selling overall well? No. Stern Pinball is not going to change anything right now, nor would I recommend them changing anything. Give us two more releases that we still see sales, you know, quantitatively continue to drop. Okay. But nothing drastic yet. No. That's my take. Okay. Well, I mean, it's not a big issue, I don't think, one way or the other. Other than I think it kind of, because of what happened with the dark market dynamics, people aren't going to be like, Oh, I remember the old day. They don't remember the old day, Zach. It looks bad for Stern to not have the LEs sell out. That's just how it is now. That's how it is now. Yeah. So I think it would be healthier overall for them just to make sure that they sell out the LEs. And if that means, oh, no, well, we know with JAWS and L when we need to do 1,000, and we know when it's not, maybe we should do less. But it doesn't have to be the same number every time. I agree with that. Yeah, I do agree with that. So the thing is, the issue with Stern is I find it a little weird because all the LE is a different trim package. It's not a different game than the premium. So they put themselves in this weird boat where they have an unlimited design, and then they do an LE version of the same already readily available design. So the whole point of LEs are for whales. So whales want exclusivity. They don't want there to be 1,000 of something.
    60:14
    I think that what CERN Pinball would – we both agree, Dennis, that they would reduce LE numbers production-wise before they'd reduce price, right?
    60:26
    Yeah, I think so. But they could also reduce LE numbers and raise price on just the LE. Okay. I'm not against that. I could see that as well, especially if you're talking about if we're all according it and picking the theme in which we're doing the higher production runs. I still think they would focus more on the opportunity to do a super LE than they would mess with any quantities there. But I could see them doing more of a Jersey Jack thing before anything, and that is making the LE stand out just a little bit more, offering maybe a little something extra that is more, you know, that you cannot get elsewhere kind of thing. Yeah, I could see that. In particular, if they wanted to keep the higher production count on the LE or even if they wanted to explore making more LEs. You know, the – because it's interesting. I don't – there's so many different routes they could go. I mean, the low-hanging fruit thing, they really don't want to – because I can understand the desire being like, I don't want to have to, like, figure out another mechanical feature for the LEs. So the short answer would be – No, in code, no, they don't want to do it. Well, but for code – They're mostly both running multiple. I could see them saying – well, you know, because they did it a few times, like how they did the Adapt Punk multiball with Tron LE, for example, and they're starting to do this. Let's have a special mode with the topper. Then I could see them saying, you know what, LEs are going to get a special mode, maybe a special gameplay mode. That doesn't affect the regular game, but, like, they get something else. Like they get another, like a mini wizard mode that they get to do as a timed rush or something. And I could see them doing the, look what they did on James Bond, a little bit of apples and oranges here. But I would like to see them, I'm not convinced they would, but I'd like to see them maybe consider something like James Bond 60, It came out with the topper already included in the package, right? Then when they came out with that topper for the Cornerstone game, same topper, but they were limiting it to 500 units for all of the Cornerstones. So it really did drive up, you know, maybe you're one of the 500 who does get one of those topper,
    62:30
    side note, sold out immediately and now going for much more than $1,000, I might add. And maybe they do that to keep that, hey, you get the guaranteed topper already at the get-go from launch. Everybody else has to wait six months. And then even so, only 500 – like something so simple, a shift like that, I think, would redeem that value of the LE, no questions asked. I think one of the main things, and it feels like – watching LEs over time, I feel like LEs, like the differential has gotten worse. over time with Stern. Dan, it's been about the same. They just haven't had to do anything. No, no, no, no, no. I'm going to point out the two main things that stand out to me is this. I'm going to use Venom in particular. This lazy decision to not give the LE its own trans light and not give it its own play field art. No, I still, no. No, that's a, it's a, I think, I think in this instance, it's one of the factors people look at it and they're like, it's the same. All that you get different is the size of the cabin. As you know, Zach, if you stick the game in a lineup, that doesn't matter. But the difference is something that you cannot buy. The difference, Dennis and listener, is that you don't just get different art on the details on the side of an LE. You get foil metallic art. You don't just get the same trans. No, you get an actual screen printed back glass with mirroring on it. It is different. It's still different. I just don't think it's as strong as what they used to do. And they used to not do foil. No, but they used to give you a different back glass. I think that's a zombie-eddy thing, though. Look, I'm just saying when you look at it from a distance, you're like you can't tell the premium from the LE. I can see the argument. It's like these are like low-effort things. All the money extra for the LE is practically, what's foil, 50 cents? It's all gravy. It's just additional profit. So they should throw in at least some easy lift stuff for them that would further let things stand out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm just saying, to me, the games are looking more and more samey as time has gotten by. And I don't know if that's based off of which artist they put on the project or what. But it's like, I think people want it to scream different. Or do what I think, again, this was probably a triple drain suggestion is, why don't they give you all three? Like, here's your back glass and, oh, yeah, here are the other translates for the premium and the pro. It's like no cost. Just throw them in so people have them. Yeah. If they want to change it up. Like, it's like these are easy lift things, not, hey, look, we barely modified the premium. But another thing, but we also have to consider the fact that not only LEs are beautiful now. Like, Stern Pinball games are beautiful now, all of the models, pros, premiums, LEs. Okay, backtrack to X-Men. Look at the difference in just aesthetics between a pro and a Magneto LE. Like, just from a visual, it's a night and day difference. whereas everything's beautiful now. So I could see some of that argument being that, yeah, it's just all pinball machines are pretty now. Like the Prima looks pretty, so does the LE. My point being, Cern has all types of things that they can do to spruce up the desirability of the LE model without drastically going to decisions such as lowering the price or lowering the numbers planned. And I just, maybe I am jaded, maybe I'm too far behind the curtain, but I think they have many options before they decide something big like that, which probably sours a lot of people's ears. They're like, no, I want there to be 500 or I want it to be cheaper. I don't think it happens. No, I don't think they'll make them cheaper, but I, yeah, I don't know who exactly they want to buy these things, but a thousand's too many if it's just like whales.
    66:21
    Yeah, we'll see. Oh, man. We squeezed a good discussion there, Dennis. That felt good. Yeah, let's end this. You can reach out to us at pinballshow.gmail.com. Patreon it up. Patreon.com slash the pinball show. Now, we'll give them, I guess, a little bit more. Michael B., the Game Genie. Have you ever heard of that YouTube channel? No, I've never heard of it. I guess it's a gaming thing. I remember Game Genie. They interviewed Brian Eddy at Comic-Con. And Brian, oh, Eddie Man blushed and gave probably more info than he should have. They asked, the viewer in chat asked about vaulting or rerunning a Stranger Things pinball machine. And Brian Eddie said that maybe we see something later this year. What? Hmm.
    67:17
    A Demogorgon hole in November? I mean, you can hope. One can hope. And then they kept prodding a bit, and he said, it's not impossible, but he was smiling, almost like he farted in church or something. Like he was, something was smelling around there. Hmm. Okay. So if you want to get on the list, email me and check it, flipping out at pinball.com. It's on a rumored list. Do you think they would ever come back out with the Pro, since the Premium's the one everybody wants?
    67:59
    You know, only if you all distributors told them there was sizable demand, I don't imagine they'd revisit the Pro otherwise. Yeah, but mechanically, it's a lot more problematic. Was that the TK block, I think it would sell well as a rerun, especially right now. Hit right now because... Yeah, poor Venom, though, that came out. No, I'd like to see people buying both of them. Let's see. I don't know. People want Will to run.
    68:32
    Run! Nap Arcade, speaking of rumors, he's saying that John Wick is happening for Stern Pinball. We've talked about that. I think, yeah. It would make sense, yeah. I don't think it's the strongest theme, personally, but I could be proven wrong because a lot of people tell me that I'm wrong. It would have been better like four years ago to have done it, but it's still relatively popular. I think it's a little more popular than Venom right now theme-wise, but I think you're selling Keanu Reeves more than anything personally. They better get him for call-outs, otherwise I don't know. You know what? I would equally enjoy a bubbly, bubble-like sound-alike of Keanu Reeves. I would love that.
    69:15
    A bobly bobo. I think I would like that. Jersey Jack Pinball and his Joe Cammin Cow just couldn't help himself. Dennis, he had to post a little bit again, going back and forth with Nap Arcade on social media regarding the Harry Potter license for pinball. Your favorite thing to talk about, Dennis? Harry Potter pinball. Now, Nap Arcade saying that... What was that?
    69:35
    Your wizard. Oh, my God. Think of all the stupid pinball wizard things that could be with it. Oh, yes. It's all coming. She's hit me like a ton of bricks. The real pinball wizard. I can see the ads now.
    69:49
    I'm just imagining that the JJP commercial, like there'll be an actual wizard playing the game and be fist pumping with his wand.
    70:00
    His patronus looking on, nodding approvingly. That one bitch of a instructor. She's so mean. Do you think the topper would be the creepy hat? I told you that is unequivocally the correct answer. The sorting hat would be the topper. It has to be the topper. Will his mouth move? Will his mouth be all like bubbly bobo?
    70:23
    Hufflepuff. I think, yeah. I think absolutely Kiefer would coat it into choose your house. Like it would be, yeah, that's slithering. It would happen. Mark Silk is just chomping at the bit to do all of the voice work for it. But it's back in the news because Nap Arcade, indicating that Joe Kamencal, claims to have offered $4 million for the license. Wow. $4 million. This ain't no $1 million Beatles pinball license. $4 million, but it was turned down. Then other follow-up sources telling Nap Arcade that Warner Brothers wants $10 million for full film assets for the use of a pinball machine.
    71:09
    Wow. Okay. Before we talk about the rest of this story, what do you think the truth behind this is? Oh, my. How am I supposed to assess that, Zach? I mean, I have no context. I've not normally seen Kamikow go out there and just start, like, throwing out numbers. But it feels squirrely to me. It. I don't know why. Something just doesn't feel right. That $10 million seems like the most absolutely asinine, ridiculous number you've ever heard of, even for something this popular? Yes. It's the license to anything. But even the $4 million seems like, how do they... My gut instinct is the numbers sound ridiculous. They don't sound right because they sound ridiculously high. But on the flip side, most product placement stuff doesn't ask for full film assets. So it's not normally a thing. It's not. Video games don't go in. They make their own cut scenes. They don't. Maybe they want clips of audio, but they don't go in asking for. We want all the DVDs at our disposal so we can throw them on the back box because people decided that they wanted to moment seems to be DVD players. I mean, yeah, I get. But again, where do you end up with like, oh, another instance? Like, do you think even at $4 million, like someone going in with $4 million and then saying we want $10 million, it would sound like they don't understand how pinball works, and then a discussion would need to be necessary, and they'd be like, oh, okay, you're not asking for the rights to actually, like, dump all of the movies so people can just sit there, hit the left button, and then get 12 hours of our masterpiece, you know. Especially if you're JJP, because I've been like, people complain we don't put enough film assets in anyway, so you guys are fine. But Warner's done pinball before, so they can't. That's a good point. So, come on. They can't be that. They can't be that mad. That's why I don't know if any of this is true. They're mad lads.
    73:02
    None of it feels right. They are like, this would be like if your kid went to Oppenheimer without you mad. This wouldn't make any sense. I asked Dominic twice to go, and he was busy, bro. That's how you treat. Oh, man, he's always got the, yeah, I've got something going on tonight. I can't. And then I get back from vacation listener, and, of course, he's like, hey, Dad, I've seen Oppenheimer. It was actually, it was really good. And I'm like, are you shitting me? Like, I've asked you twice. If I asked you twice and you turned me down twice, I would think that you would wait until I can go. Otherwise, maybe just hate your dad. That's the conclusion I came up with. So, basically, that's basically what's going on here. But in this instance, with a potential $10 million price tag. I know he doesn't hate me because his follow-up was very emotional and said, no, like in typical Christopher Nolan fashion, I'm going to appreciate it more the second time. So I think we could go now, and I'll appreciate it the most with you watching it. And like a typical sucker of a dad, I'm like, okay, son.
    74:11
    All right. I know it's not true, though. He just wanted to go to his friends, not his dear old daddy. whatever. I do want to see it. Have you seen Oppenheimer yet? I have not. It seems like a film you'd go see.
    74:25
    Yeah, maybe. I mean, I've read up on Oppenheimer before, so I do have some familiarity with his biography. I want to go see it so bad. You know, because at one time I wanted to be a nuclear physicist, but I'm still waiting. I never looked into having that as a career. I'm still waiting for my interstellar pinball machine. But you know what? When I heard $4 million, I don't think that's bad at all. Why wouldn't? I mean, if there was an option, I'd be like Joe here. $4 million, all assets? Yeah, sign me up. Let's do it. I think that seems very doable. Again, I could understand him offering four, especially, okay, Kapow title, no pro. It worked for Beatles. They wouldn't do a single level for, I mean, they'd be able to sell them. They'd be able to sell them easier than they sold Beatles. even with dispersing that $4 million across however many number of games. $10 million. That's heavy. If that's true, I mean, I would say I wouldn't even want to try and figure out that. You could, in theory, pull it off. I wouldn't want to try it in this market.
    75:30
    It's big, Zach, but we can't. I think it may be worth the risk. Stupidity only goes so far. Look, the second part of this story, listener, is the following. NavArcade then indicating that the film version will not happen, is not actually happening for Pinball. Almost like it's not happening, but what is happening is a more affordable $800,000 version of the license that just focuses on the entity of Hogwarts. Now, this part I completely believe. We're talking about the company that brought us Toy Story 4. If this is true, what a fail. No. That's Hogwarts. People love that house. It's Hogwarts. It's complete fail. Oh, no. 800,000. You didn't buy shit. You bought a castle.
    76:16
    Shit. You bought a pinball adventure's bunny factory. You got hoes. The video game, the Hogwarts video game did really well. If it's a legacy or not, it's not Harry Potter. Daniel Radcliffe is Harry Potter. Why not just do the books? No. That's not Harry Potter either. I'm sorry. You shut your mouth. No. It's gone. The films are the number one. No, as the children learn how to read on those books, you can't just dismiss them. Like so much fluff off of a dandelion in the breeze. I'm sorry. Maybe in 20 years, you know, when Dana Radcliffe gets in trouble with blowing hookers or something. But right now, no. It is beloved and it's iconic. It's the reason you go to Universal Studios and you don't see, you know, Harry Potter the novel ride. Universal the novel rides to the novel ride. I know, but travel in a hardback cover book as we... No! No, it's the Bombadil of Harry Potter. You don't even know what you're talking about at this point. Stay in your lane. I will, and my lane is $10 million. Clearly not reading, but go on. It's $800,000 for Hogwarts. It's so stupid. It worked for the video game. Maybe that was their logic. It's a waste of money. That video game did gangbusters. I think if you spend $800,000 just on Hogwarts for a pinball machine, I would argue you don't care about pinball. There, I said it. And it might get me in trouble, but I said it. It's true.
    77:44
    If you care about pinball, you spend $10 million for full film assets because that's what Harry Potter is. Or you don't touch it at all. Language like this is meaning you're only going to get allocated 50 Elton Johns. I'll tell you what, Joe Cannon Cow and I, I think, are cut from the same cloth. You know what, Joe? I think Joe would have been willing to go more than four. but something messed up and other entities snuck in because I think that's not the top for Cam and Cal. I think he was coming in at four because he's a smart man. I would have done the same probably, knowing that I'm probably going to spend $6 or $7. All right, let me throw a hypothetical out at you then, okay? Hogwarts. Let's say JJP has done what was indicated here in the NAP Arcade article, $800,000. They have a Hogwarts version. Can, I mean, we don't know the terms, but here's the hypothetical. What if Joe's saying all this stuff, but behind the scenes, he's still trying to get the film rights, and Stern will do their own version? They'll do a film version, and JJP will have a Hogwarts version. Well, if I'm JJP and I'm spending $800,000 on a castle, I'm also in that contract stating you cannot sell the Harry Potter. But it has to be a timed exclusivity. I mean, they don't get the rights forever. I would say five years. I would say, no. That would be part of my contract. I'll pay $800,000 for an old castle. You raise a good point. Building is $800,000 alone does seem steep. Yeah. For just, like, I guess. And I'm assuming that's just, like, the movie assets to show, like, shots of, like, the kids eating at the table with the floating candles. Yeah. Like, the owl and the owl flies in. It'd be Wizarding World of Hogwarts. Yeah. Yeah, it would not be Harry Potter at all. You need their name. How much do you think it would be to get the full movie assets of, what was it, Scary Movie and the tiny little hand for the turkey? Scary Movie 2. Scary Movie 2, thank you. I bet it's under $800,000. I'm a caretaker. I bet we can get him to point everything. Right? I think it'd probably still be a lot of money, actually. I'd just lick it. Oh, okay.
    79:58
    All their pants are in Chinese. Yeah. The giblet. Yeah. I'm down with that. Stop it. How about that? Yeah.
    80:14
    Oh, God. Stupid. Anyway, so we don't sound pleased with these decisions, Zach. Let's take $10 million. Let's put an example. Okay. With all film assets, could it be argued that they wouldn't sell at least 5,000 units? They're going to sell 5,000 units of a fully full asset Harry Potter. Let's just, for argument's sake, say that's all the films, that's all the life, that's anything you want. All right, all right, all right. So you want to say that you want to spread $2,000 per game, right? That's exactly what I'm saying. And I'm saying that is very much doable.
    80:49
    When you break it down, it's not that much. $2,000 is asinine. Roger Sharp right now is rolling over. Like, he's like, you spend maybe $50 to $100 per game on license. You do not spend more. That is crazy talk.
    81:06
    I would say he'd probably argue nothing over $50. I mean, it is a lot to add on top of each game just to cover the license. I say you take an LE and you say, hey, guys, not only did we get Harry Potter the most sought-after license for an entire industry of your gaming experience, the physical world of Harry Potter. We got that, but we didn't half-ass it. We got everything, but it cost us. So instead of $12,000 as we've been having for an LE, I'm sorry, it's now $14,000. I think you sell 5,000 units of the LE alone. And then you go $25,000, $50,000 for a super limited edition of 100 of those Harry Potters just to justify. Maybe even to get that $2,000 per unit of the others, get that down a little bit.
    81:59
    I don't think it's a problem. I'm unsure on that one, Zach. And here's the thing, because I know they sold over 4,000 guns in the Roses, so I can see why you're thinking with something as big as Harry Potter, they could get the $5,000. The problem is, and maybe I'm wrong, and it wouldn't be a problem, But my problem that I would see with it is with 5,000 games out, they know it will lose value. It's not an investment at 5,000 games. No way. So it's too common. And so everyone has to decide, is this a keeper? Is it 5,000 people bolting this to the floor? Or it's, oh, I love Harry Potter. It's one of my most favorite themes. But I'm also knowing I'm getting rid of the game within 18 months because I do that to all my games. And I'm going to take a huge bath on this. that this $2,000 is going to be, no one's going to, like, on the second market, it's just not going to hold. That would be the concern I think would get a lot of people being like, do I really want to pay $14,000 for the base model? That's where I hedge. Here's what I would argue, and, of course, I'll be interested to know if you agree or disagree with me. I would say it's a safer bet to make $1,000, only a CE, add $10,000 to the price and say there are only going to be $1,000 Harry Potters, period. I think that sells out. I think at $5,000, there are too many people that are going to hedge at that price point and be like, absolutely not.
    83:26
    It needs to be more exclusive. We have to lean into more exclusivity, not more numbers to spread out the cost. We have to go full 180 against Roger Sharp's philosophy. You're saying 1,000 units, which adds $10,000 to the price. Yep. You go maybe even, you know, $20,000 to $25,000, and you think it might work. Because you have to target the whales at this point, only the whales. And the whales need the exclusivity. The whales need the exclusivity because a number of them want to bank on that this $25,000 game will become a $30,000 game in three years. I would almost say then you could still do $100,000. No, but then you don't want to fracture the humpback. Right. You need 1 of the humpback so keep it I mean you could argue doing something like 900 at then do the other as an ultra high That what I was wondering yeah So you play with it a variety of ways, but I don't think you can allow $5,000 of these games to go out there and still add thousands of dollars just for the license. You could do that. I think we need to raise the price more and make the count less. I think that's the way it works. Well, they tried to do that with the season last month. Because then there's FOMO. There's no FOMO at 5,000 units. But we're still playing around with a $10 million total, and we're finding ways that could make sense. It could be workable. I definitely would change this for less than $10 million, though. Isn't it worth all this work versus just finding a little bit less popular license that doesn't ask for the move? For a Stern pinball, no. For an American pinball, no. For a Spooky pinball, no. for the one company who is owned by billionaires who their one big hobby is pinball? Why the fuck not? Because it feels like it feeds into the joke that how do you become a millionaire in pinball? You start as a billionaire. That's what it feels like. But when you're a billionaire, you just want the shit you want because at some point you're going to be dead.
    85:35
    So you want to make the Harry Potter pinball. They could just get a one-off Harry Potter for themselves and not need a license. That's not what billionaires do. Why not? Because they want to rub it on everybody. No, so many billionaires go and get bespoke stuff. Jeff Bezos isn't asking for there to be 100 yachts like his. He wants his own weird-ass yacht. Oh, no, they've got weird kink and shit that are one-offs. I get that. But if they have a company that they're building something, they want to show it off. They want to show off. But, look, they might be more business-minded, which is why they're billionaires in the first place, and they opt for the business-savvy $800,000 old-ass castle. That's right. Right up there with, you know, going with Toy Story 4 and Godfather. You know, great theme picks. The one word I would use is disgraceful.
    86:24
    At the end of the day, Dennis, we're talking and playing around with numbers and such here and the theming and license of intellectual property of Harry Potter, And ultimately, I think maybe Kamikawa's just trolling all along and just fucking around with people. I really do. I think maybe all this is. Yeah. It's a strange sport to take up. That's Joe Kamikawa. I think it's all bullshit, honestly. I really do. I still think Jerry Jack has the license. So you don't even think J.J.P. has the license? No, I do think J.J.P. has the license, even though Jack Raniere's telling people he doesn't. I think it's not all but confirmed and locked in. And I do see them moving forward. Not with this. I'm so tired of hearing this. It's going to be a sizzle. It's not going to have a corner. Hey, that rumor cornered that. It's all bullshit. I think Nat probably ran with it, too. No. If they're going to make Harry Potter, they're going to make a commercial pinball device. It will be in any arcade or bar. Just Hogwarts stuff. It's not going to be some watered down. If it's watered down, it's based on this. You're a wizard in Hogwarts, and now you're going to go on your own adventure. of the game itself is not going to be watered down. I don't know where people are getting that from. It's all bullshit. JJP's not going to do that. And I think they have it. And I think they're probably pushing for film assets. And I think either they're going to get it. At the minimum, it would be something like A Pirates of the Caribbean if I had to guess. At minimum. Okay. That's why I'm so tired of rumors. But this one comes directly from the source, but I think the source is trolling everybody's ass.
    88:00
    NAP Arcade also reporting that Animal House has been trademarked for pinball. Animal House. Oh, was that a 70s film? Yes. I think so. Maybe early 80s. I don't recall. Dollars to Donuts. This is Homepins.
    88:17
    Well, it fits in the entire wheelhouse of someone who is a fan of Spinal Tap is going to love Animal House. It's way past its prime to be done. I remember the interview that Dr. John did with Mike indicated that the license would be one that he felt people would be upset about. And there are some hardcore fans of Animal House, so I could see that. And Mike also said that there was a complicated, like, ownership issue with the license he was going after. I have no idea, but Animal House is so old that that might fit it. So Animal House? It deserves video. I mean, I guess. Animal House, you know, whatever. I don't think it deserves to have a pinball machine, period. Right now, I don't think it does. I think it kind of, yeah, I think it's past its... Yeah, it's a 1978 film, a comedy. Well, we're well past needing to farm this era for content. It was held together. I've seen the movie. It's fine. You know, it's a John Landis film. It was held together by Belushi. Let's not kid ourselves. Yes. And arguably, I'm going to say it, Chris Farley was a better John Belushi. I'm sorry, people.
    89:27
    Get out of here. Animal House isn't strong enough. Sorry. Oh, the boomers are going to be angry. Are we boomers, Dennis? Maybe we're boomers. No, we're not. We're too young to be boomers. When do we become boomers? We don't. We become the hated. I don't know what you are. I'm a Gen X. You're probably Gen Y. You're not my boomer. You're my Generation X. I don't know. The millennials just like all of us. I think I'm a millennial. Because we took all the good jobs. I think I'm a millennial. No, you're not. I think I'm the first millennial. No, you may be a millennial. First grade to the millennials. Which ones? What are the people just now graduating high school? What are those called? Gen Cs? No. Gen going to Oppenheimer without the ads. No. That's what they're called. They should be called Gen Memes. I still call on my son for that. When he gets references and things, I'm like, no, you're not allowed to because you've not seen that piece. You've not seen the film. You only know the memes to the film. You just know the meme of the film, yeah. So don't you even act like you can talk about the shit. Pisses me off. What is it with shortcuts in kids nowadays? Always wanting to take the shortcut instead of the journey. Fucking hogwash $800,000 pinball machine. Stupid animal house that doesn't even have video. American Pinball, what do you got? Well, Nap Arcade says that they have He-Man and the Masters of the Universe license. That makes sense. It's like a toy. Hot Wheels was a toy. And aren't they the same toy developers? I think I remember two years ago being like, hey, guys, if they made Hot Wheels, don't you think they kind of have an in with that company to get He-Man? Do you remember that? So this is not surprising at all. Do you think He-Man and the Masters of the Universe is a good license for pinball? I do. Yeah, I think it has potential. You know, good nostalgia, very famous, very famous toy line. Obviously had a cartoon associated with it. But what if this is the Dolph Lundgren live-action movie, right? Flirts. What have they got? Those. Did you ever see that one? Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I've only seen the memes. Okay.
    91:28
    It's so, so bad. It's interesting, though. It's weird. It's a weird take on you. You know what? But crazy enough, Dennis, a He-Man in the Masters of the Universe, a little bit before my time, actually. I didn't really grow up. I think I was like 80s. That would make sense. I had He-Man toys. You would be a bit young for it. I was born in 84, so I started understanding toys. And it's not like they kept rerunning this stuff. And once it was dead after two seasons, it was kind of dead. You get the toy line and such and the animated movie and stuff. But, no, I had some of the toys just for toys' sake, but they were hand-me-downs probably for my cousins.
    92:06
    I was Ninja Turtles more. I think it was right before me. Well, those kind of came up in popularity in the late 80s, so that would make more sense. Whereas I think, you know, I don't know when He-Man came out. I think it was maybe three. Maybe the cartoon. I think the development on the toys dated back to the mid-'70s. Oh, okay. That makes sense. Because I think Mattel was trying to do something based off of Star Wars after the first Star Wars movie came out. And then because those were really successful, Mattel was trying to find something else that would, you know, be able to influence the toy market. And so that's sort of, I guess, the underpinnings of when He-Man was manifested.
    92:47
    But the thing is, He-Man has also stayed relevant. So, yeah, 83 was, I guess, the what? The animated TV series. That's when that came out. Oh, yeah. So maybe that's around when the toys finally launched. So I remember in the mid-'80s, I had some He-Man toys. But they did – but they've still done stuff. Like there's a CGI reboot that came out a couple of years ago. I did hear that. So He-Man's still kind of like Ninja Turtles. It's still in the cultural zeitgeist. Like, they still make stuff. There's a Turtles movie out in theaters right now. Well, apparently it's been reviewing extremely well. Yeah, but I think that He-Man, Master Universe, only work under one strict rule, and that is it has to be the classic toy line and animated series for those two seasons. That it's not going to work like a Turtles would from a different genre. It will not work. The only way it works is very focused niche in that one situation. That's it. Well, you know, I thought it worked out with Stern's Turtles game to focus on Gen 1 Turtles. And that's fine. And the younger crowds will still be able to identify what those are. I don't think that that works. They don't have any money. Who cares what they think? That He-Man works. I don't think that works. Has to be that or nothing. Kind of like Sonic the Hedgehog. Even with the relevancy of the new Sonic films and stuff I think it works Maybe not as strict But it works best for just that Almost Sega Genesis-like 8-bit kind of thing That's it Don't give me the animated series Don't give me the film series Nope Same with Mario Another new story this week Spooky Pinball Code Update for Scooby-Doo This week we get the Daphne mode as well as, I put this in there because I'm so happy about this, the Mystery Machine mech is sped up for the subway shots. This is one of my complaints and Greg Bone from Straight and Unmiddled. One of our complaints after the first impression was, man, it would be nice to speed that whole process because that feels like a stop and stall there. So there was some updates in this newest code to speed that up as well as suggestion that more improvements are going to come, and they're focusing on that as well. I also get settings, saving, updates, bug fixes, general bug fixes, et cetera. I do appreciate that Spooky Pinball continues to build upon this game. People are loving it more and more. This game is in a really good place, I think, and I do love their media outreach, and they're doing streams and gameplay videos and such. When are you installing the code? I still have it now. I don't know the last time I played pinball in my game room was. It's easier now. He's going to update it to USB, but I don't anticipate myself doing that anytime soon.
    95:32
    That's what I was afraid of. I'm so busy. These people are busy. I'm so busy, Dennis, that it's going to be hard for me to even go to shows this year. Are you going to any shows? Not for this year, no. Oh. I'm done. TPF was my last show of 2023. Oh, man. Speaking of, this is a segment we're going to call It's Showtime. And it's going to be exclusively to those pinball show club membership. Club membership. Allow myself to introduce myself. Club membership members in the ships.
    96:09
    Go over to patreon.com slash the pinball show. Sign up today at the lowest level. You sign up and you get the goods. That is private discord. Boom. We're chatting in there about some of the private content. Boom, you get that as well. Exclusive content only for subscribers. It helps us out a lot here at the Pinball Show, and it's very appreciative. It's the lowest level you get all that stuff. The second level, the Nordman level, you get some swag. You get to pick topics for the show. You even get the Hangout monthly live Hangout that has been increasingly, it's just going better than I ever imagined. I look forward to it each and every month. Yeah, those are fun. And the last one, they're always very hearty with discussion, So much so that I'm like, did I discuss that on the show? Didn't I yet? So get the goods there. And then the big level is the Screaming Goat level, which we're going to thank those members here in a second. But that level gets you all of that stuff, additional swag, the paywall polo shirt that everybody wants. You get to be a guest on a future episode of the Pinball Show. You also get one-on-one private conversation with Dennis and I about all the rumors and giblets that's all there. I just lick them. I don't know what that is. I'll link it anyway.
    97:22
    But in this next segment, for those subscribers of the Pinball Show Club, you're going to hear Dennis and I talk about not only Yagpin that happened over a little week ago. That's kind of boring, right? Southern Fried Gaming Expo. Yeah, sure, that happened. But another little rumor tidbit that, Dennis, I keep hearing that would shake up the entire industry and how we view conventions and shows moving forward. It's a game changer if it becomes true. And a lot of the truth that's already out there public about maybe the biggest show in our industry, a lot of people don't even know about. We'll discuss that as well. It's showtime. We got to thank our Screaming Goat Club members, Dennis.
    98:08
    Yes, we do. Which one do you want to thank first? Should we thank... Let's do Colin. Oh! You're a castle, Colin. Yes, yes. In honor of our Wizarding Ways, I figured he was the prime candidate. We can't forget the one, the only, Frankie. The Falcon. Love you, Frankie. We'll never forget Pinball's Bradley Cooper, Rob, the Panther, Snarl.
    98:35
    Or even Mr. Wom-Wom, protege himself. Bumblebee. Steve. Thanks for the support, Steve. Joe Fox. I'm coming to visit you. Thank you for the support. Charlie Bell. Ding dong and thank you. Thank you. Talked to Charlie's last weekend. What were we talking about? Venom. Oh, no. He messaged me about something shipping and then apologized because he was like, oh, shit, you're on vacation. Sorry about that. I'm like, no, I'm fine. I'm not on a roller coaster right now, so we're all good. Oh, the OEM shaker. Thank you for the support. I saw this past week on social media. Did you know Dave's part of a band? No. The shaker. Yeah, I wonder if he plays percussion. That would go along with his shakiness. And none other than Mr. Rodney himself.
    99:33
    Surprised I didn't hear it at the demolition derbies last week. I'm going to shoot that fucker. Oh, shoot that fucker! Thank you, Bobcat. I'm wanting that next member. I've got it primed. There's one, two, or three different ones that would fit very nicely into my arsenal here, Dennis. All right, Dennis, it's that time that we discuss what's trending in the marketplace. People can try to copy it. They can try to build brands around it now, but it will not stick. It'll never stick. Why? Why do you think it won't? The only thing that's going to stick. Oh, my God. This car. Rumble, rumble. This is going to be a good car. Dylan, listen to me.
    100:14
    I hope they didn't hit my Corolla. That's right. That's like the Spider-Man. That's how I feel about the driveway. It gets here, man. It got so slow. It's just stock. Leave it alone. He just started crying, and everybody was like, kill him.
    100:29
    Get that poker. The bitch is crying. You're not my son I just owned you He pulled like a Daniel Day-Lewis and just sent him to the orphanage while he was making money off his oil blowing up Oh, that is a That's a movie that will probably never get a pinball I would love it too Oh, you went deaf, kid? There won't be sound I can't wait for the I eat steak while drunk in my bowling alley. Hurry up. I'll drink your milkshake.
    101:09
    Oh, my God. Yeah, so I don't even know where I was at. Where were we going? Oh, yeah. We were getting ready to launch market. You can't do this, people. You can't replicate this. It's a trick that you try. Anybody's talking. No, it just can't be done. I don't care if you've won Twippies or not. it's just it's not your bag baby it's ours and it will always be here on the pinball show what we know as pinball market trends this week turning up is the king of machines the hot dog in the hallway it's Godzilla premium I can't picture Godzilla without a little green dick now. Just a little bitty guy. Because I'm overweight.
    102:05
    It's cold in Tokyo this time of year. No, it's not. A heat wave over there, too, Godzilla. It's how you use it. That's all. But it's the king of the machines. It's turning up this week because dealers are caught up on everything.
    102:17
    I'm even caught up. We thought Foo Fighters was going to make a run for the whole Godzilla thing, right? Nope. Well, no, not really. We haven't seen it in God. We didn't see it in James Bond. We didn't see it in Rush. There was a number of games. But Foo had the best chance. It did. And it shot off like a rocket ship. And it's still one of the most popular. It still sells like crazy. But believe it or not, it's still Godzilla Premium that reigns supreme. That's still the most sought-after game. That is still the one that people ask about if it's backordered the most. It's still the only one right now that we are backordered on with a list list. We have a couple food premiums still waiting, but still a nice little handful of Godzilla premium people waiting. We're almost caught up. That's why that November, December run is really going to help out. And I would say the caveat to that would be Elvira, right, because they're not making it much. Deadpool, because people have been waiting over a year. But Godzilla Premium is still the one to beat. And I don't think it's going to be beat until maybe possibly the next Elwynn. That'll be the resurgence of the next, I'm going to call it Blockbuster pin release.
    103:27
    I'm going to say Godzilla Premium is the definition of a Blockbuster pin release. I guess, except on paper, when doing your little box check thing, like we talked about on the Vim episode, Yeah, we'd never check the theme box. That's another episode. We're going to go back and maybe look at the checking of boxes. Okay. Turning up this week is also the box system checking. I think we made a great case on episode 133, the Venom episode, of a new system we're working on. Still in the working phases, but to decide how big of a hit or if a game will be a hit from a sales perspective. But trending down is none other than that poor Stranger Things Pro or Premium that you've got in your game room right now, listener. I'm sorry. Numbers don't lie. I only report what Brian Eddy sneakers about at shows. And that is that we may be seeing a Stranger Things rerun coming in pinball later this year. What are they talking about, collectible cards? I don't think so. I'm starting to think that might be the November run. And I think they'll probably, to keep the value up, they'll probably limit that run as well and not rule out the possibility of running again next year. I think that's where we're at. Stranger Things Pro and Premium is on the downside now. The one that you've got is not as thought after right now. Not until November comes. And if it doesn't happen, then we can go back to valuing them high. And don't get me wrong. They're still high right now, people. Stranger Things Pro is going to run you on the secondary market for a used unit, $8,500 to $10,000. Premiums, still $13,500 to $14,500. They're still way over what they were priced brand new, so they're still retaining their value. But overall, you're not going to see those values go up. And I would argue that you're going to see them fall at a higher, more rapid pace than that of the typical softening of the marketplace from now until the end of the year. Boom. That's a market trend for you. And deal of the week, deal of the week, you want to save some money? Buy, buy, buy! Look, this is for the pinball show. I love the people. So I pull in my distribution company, Flippin' Out Pinball, and I want to give you guys a special offer for this week's deal of the week. Just got a notification, Dennis, that I've got a bundle of Haggis Pinball Fathom Revisited Mermaid Editions coming over. We're mad! In a plane, baby. I ain't going to wait 10 months for this thing. Coming over via air freight. and I had one open up. Uh-oh. But am I going to jack up the price like everybody else on Pennside, $10,000 plus? No. And it goes back to our argument, Dennis. Guess what I'm selling this new-in-the-box, Fathom Revisited Mermaid Edition for? $9,999?
    106:14
    $9,000, just like I did when they came out. Buy, buy, buy! I'm not going for the extra dollar here. I'm just selling them for whatever we've sold them to our other customers for. I'm not marking up the price or anything, even if it warrants it. So the first person that emails me at ZachZACH at flip the letter in out pinball.com can save all kinds of money and still get their brand new mermaid edition from the most recent run from Haggis Pinball. You heard it here, the exclusive dealer of Haggis Pinball in the States. Now, pinball, and that's your deal of the week. That's a good one. It's just a bunch of water babies. Pinball Bounty Star Trek LE. I needs it, I wants it, but I'm not, like, paying anything for it, people. I'll pay you what they're worth. I'm looking for one. Dolly Parton, you find me a mint one, home use only. I'll pay more than you could imagine. Same with Radical and Congo. Oh, I'd like to have a Congo. Not the conga.
    107:06
    Have you ever been to Congolang? No. But I have seen Amy, and she is not a bad gorilla. Amy. Hippos. I think you're my chick.
    107:23
    And as always, I'm just here to report the facts, even if they are obscure, because numbers don't lie, neither do I, on pinball. Market trams, cheer the eagle, Barry!
    107:34
    And the falcons. All right, Dennis, where can people catch you? It's easiest to email a click at gamerspodcast at gmail.com. Oh, nice. Should they sign up to Patreon right now? If they want to. Yeah, it's patreon.com slash the pinball show. You can email us at the pinball show at gmail.com as well. Well, sign up, follow, like, and subscribe to Facebook, TikTok. Jump in that Discord. All you got to do is become a member, an official member, and we'll start chatting in there. Follow, like, and subscribe to SDTM Video Series on YouTube, as well as supporting our sponsor of the pinball show, the one, the only, your dealer with the most, Flippin' Out Pinball. When I buy my pinball shit, I buy from Flippin' Out. From Topper's, from Plain Serious, I've got it. Flippin' Out, Flippin' Out. Out when I take a pinball I think flip out Flip it out When I buy buy buy I buy from flipping out Product showcase this week Is American Pinball's Hot Wheels Classic They just got off the line And I've got a couple of them Still available So for those of you who have been waiting for them to make Hot Wheels again They're ready to go We also have a plethora Of different titles and different games That we can add to your collection today Go follow us, the Flippin' Out Pinball, on Facebook for the most up-to-date inventory list or our website, FlippinOutPinball.com. But we've got Avengers Premium and Pro now in stock. Foo Fighters, get the game that everybody loves. Get it today with free shipping. I hear wait and see, wait and see. I hear that all the time. Instead of wait and see, how about freight is free? Huh? I hope you didn't sit there too long for that one. It wasn't, but it was quick. I might have went online and found the rhymes with C. Yeah. I can't all be gold, my friends. Iron Maiden, premiums and pros. Jurassic Park, premium.
    109:28
    Pre-owned, what else? I got some pre-owned games, too. Go check it all out. Godfather Ellie. I think we just got in some Godfather Ellie, one or two pre-owned ones. Save a lot of money there. Alien LVs. James Bond. 60th Anniversary. Pros, premiums. Star Wars Home Editions. Led Zeppelin pros feed the children. They're hungry. They've got TBIs from demolition derbies, traumatic brain injuries.
    109:56
    Buy accessories, buy shakers, flip out with friends with Joel every Wednesday. TPN last week, we had some good episodes podcast-wise. We actually, because we didn't really talk about, for the Venom episode, we didn't really go over anything that was from our episode 132 onward. Yeah, it was a weird special. In terms of that, I mean, we had Pinball Party Podcast has had a couple of episodes. They had the episode 36, which was the reaction to Venom. Oh, yeah. And then just recently, episode 37 dropped, which is back with Rachel and Kale, along with Jason, going over a variety of topics in their No Reason titled episode. And then we also saw Final Round had their Beast episode, which talked a lot about Centaur. Oh, yeah, the game creator himself, Martin Robinson. That's right. And then we had Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 40, which was their deep dive on Venom. Oh, yeah. And we also had an episode of Pinball Innovators and Makers Podcast Drop while you were on vacation about Pentastic. Yeah, very cool. So quite a few things have come out. Oh, is Pentastic dying?
    111:08
    As a reference to all those subscribers, yeah. Something's dying. Somebody's not going to make it off this island. Well, I guess that wraps it up for this episode, Zach. And I just ask the listeners to remember that you're a wizard, Player One. Now, shoot around and explore this. No, don't look too closely at those characters. Just shoot around. Shoot around and enjoy $800,000 of floating stairwells and lit candles and banquets. And always practice safe pinball. And if you're a billionaire and you've got the cojones to put your child into a Hot Wheels and let them get mangled by other children with bigger Hot Wheels. And you've got the money and the know-how to do it right and not hogwash it. Don't disgrace this industry and give us Potato Face Daniel Radcliffe.
    112:00
    I'd say I'm back. Are you back? I am back. I am a successful agent. Kill my fucking beagle. Whoa, there's enough dogs under this bus to bark up the world.
    112:15
    Pop quiz, hot shot.