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Episode 87: Barry Oursler

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·19m 24s·analyzed·Nov 3, 2017
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Barry Oursler interview: 40-year design career, iconic games, Dracula origin story, Heighway Pinball future.

Summary

Pinball Profile interviews legendary designer Barry Oursler, covering his 30+ game career from Phoenix (1978) through his current work with Heighway Pinball. Discussion spans EM-to-solid-state transition, iconic titles like Gorgar (first talking pinball), Space Shuttle, Dracula (with missed multiball feature), and Doctor Who, plus production challenges, licensing pivots (Alien→Dracula), and his recent involvement with modern LCD technology at Highway.

Key Claims

  • Phoenix (1978) was Barry Oursler first designed game, which sold over 6,000 units

    high confidence · Barry Oursler stated directly in interview; host confirmed production numbers

  • Gorgar (1979) was the first talking pinball machine

    high confidence · Barry Oursler and host both confirmed; Oursler explained he was fortunate to get the new voice system just as the game was scheduled

  • Time Warp banana flippers came from leftover stock from Disco Fever, imposed by Williams

    high confidence · Barry Oursler explained Williams decision; he acknowledged disliking them

  • Dracula was originally going to be an Alien pinball game (75% complete) but was pivoted due to Columbia Pictures delaying the Alien movie script

    high confidence · Barry Oursler provided detailed explanation; corroborated by prior Andrew McBain interview mention

  • Missed multiball feature in Dracula was partly inspired by the 'mist' scene in the movie and partly a joke response to complaints about magnets being unfair

    high confidence · Barry Oursler described origin story directly

  • Police Force was originally going to be a Batman game with artwork by Python Anghelo

    high confidence · Barry Oursler stated directly; confirmed Python did artwork for Police Force instead

  • Barracora was a redesign of a game originally conceived by Roger Sharpe and Steve Epstein; Oursler kept only a couple of original shots

    high confidence · Barry Oursler explained redesign scope

  • Pinbot and Jackbot were essentially the same game with different rules

    high confidence · Barry Oursler stated directly

  • Defender had more coils than any Williams game ever made, with 12 drop targets and individual resets for each

    high confidence · Barry Oursler explained technical specs; less than 400 units produced

Notable Quotes

  • “I was there when they were doing the EM machines, but I was working as a technician. I worked in the factory. I mean, it took about eight years before I started designing, actually.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~5:30 — Establishes that Oursler's career began in manufacturing before design, important context for his technical knowledge

  • “Williams. They had leftover flippers from when they did Disco Fever, and they wanted to use them up. I guess you're the new guy on the totem pole, so they said, yeah, they're going on your machine.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~8:00 — Humorous insight into corporate decision-making and Oursler's early position; explains the banana flippers on Time Warp

  • “I had like probably 75% of the game done tied in with Alien and then I believe it was Columbia Pictures came up to us and said well the movie's on hold now... They offered us Dracula in place of it because we had a game ready to be made.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~28:00 — Major revelation about Dracula's origin; demonstrates how licensing deals impact game development

  • “I just wanted something that was mysterious. Plus, for years people kept saying, I can't win this game because it's got magnets on it. It's cheating me. So I said, hell with them. Let's put a magnet in the game and have them move the ball right in front of them just to see what they do.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~22:30 — Reveals the creative/humorous logic behind missed multiball; blends thematic inspiration with player psychology

  • “I can knock out two games a year when I worked at Williams, but we did everything there. We had our own model shop... but this is everything being done overseas so it a lot harder.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~48:00 — Articulates the operational challenges of modern remote design versus legacy integrated manufacturing

  • “Sometimes it was nerve-wracking working with him because you just never knew when he was going to get something done. He'd wait until, like, the last week to start working on something.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~33:00 — Characterizes Python Anghelo's artistic process; humanizes the tension between design discipline and creative genius

Entities

Barry Ourslerperson[name withheld pending review]personRoger SharpepersonJosh SharpepersonPython AnghelopersonAndrew McBainpersonSteve Epsteinperson

Signals

  • ?

    historical_signal: Barry Oursler recounts spanning EM-to-solid-state transition (1970s), then solid-state-to-dot-matrix era (1980s-90s); documents manufacturing integration collapse (factory model shop to overseas outsourcing)

    high · Oursler detailed eight-year progression from technician to designer; contrast between knocking out 'two games a year' at Williams with integrated manufacturing vs. difficulty in remote modern design

  • ?

    design_innovation: Missed multiball in Dracula is confirmed as significant innovation; origin blends thematic inspiration (mist scene) with gameplay psychology (player frustration with magnets)

    high · Oursler explained concept as both artistic choice and tongue-in-cheek response to complaints; Ed Robertson previously cited it as 'one of greatest pinball inventions'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Columbia Pictures delayed Alien film script mid-development, forcing Oursler to pivot Alien pinball (75% complete) to Dracula theme; strategic asset reuse of playfield layout and shots minimized production delay

    high · Oursler provided detailed account: 'I had like probably 75% of the game done tied in with Alien... They offered us Dracula in place of it because we had a game ready to be made'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Python Anghelo's work style (last-minute deadlines, multiple excuses) was both creatively fruitful and organizationally stressful; anecdote about oven explosion while crafting Pinbot skill shot models illustrates eccentric genius personality

    high · Oursler detailed nervousness about Anghelo's timing: 'sometimes it was nerve-wracking working with him because you just never knew when he was going to get something done... wait until, like, the last week'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.058

0:00
It's time for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teelis. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter and Stitcher now, too. Email us, pinballprofile at gmail.com, and please subscribe on iTunes. It is a pleasure to be talking to one of the greatest game designers of all time. Barry Ousler joins us. Barry, thanks very much for doing this. You're very welcome. So many people can say when they talk about their favorite games, a lot of your games certainly come up. I was kind of wondering as I looked at the catalog of these 30-plus games that you made, was there a particular theme you really preferred? Because there are a lot of space themes here. Yeah, there was. I mean, I was always into space stuff and a lot of sci-fi. It seemed to work well with the game themes, too. You can do a lot with them. And as far as your days with Williams, you're at the time when EMs became solid states, and then at the tail end of your career, you saw the dot matrix revolution. Going to solid state for so many people back then, I just joked with Josh Sharp just recently about how his father, Roger, a family you know very, very well, he used to get all this flack about when EMs went to solid state, what are you doing? You're ruining pinball. And I can only imagine for someone like yourself, it was a lot more opportunities for things to do. Oh, yeah, definitely it was. I mean, I was there when they were doing the EM machines, but I was working as a technician. I worked in the factory. I mean, it took about eight years before I started designing, actually. But when you got your hands on your first machine, It was Phoenix in 1978. Let's go way back, almost 40 years. Recall what it was like to get that first game under your belt. It was exciting. You know, a little nervous because I'd never done it before, but I had some ideas, and they told me to go ahead and do it. So I wasn't going to argue. Had to make you feel good that it was so popular they made over 6,000 of these machines as well. Oh, yeah. I said it was great doing it for the first time, you know. And then you were so successful, they said, keep doing it, and do several a year. And even in 1979, you had three games. And first of all, let's talk about Time Warp. And I've got to wonder what kind of warped mind puts banana flippers on a machine.
2:04
Williams Management. They had leftover flippers from when they did Disco Fever, and they wanted to use them up. I guess you're the new guy on the totem pole, so they said, yeah, they're going on your machine. But it's funny. I've seen a lot of those machines where they've replaced them. Oh, I know. I didn't like them either on there. But, you know, you couldn't fight them, but people can always change them. That's right. and it's a great game too. Probably one of the first games I ever remember as a kid was your classic Gorgar in 1979, and this machine was not only beautiful to play, it talked to me too. I know. The first talking pinball machine. That had to be fun. It was. I got lucky with that too because they had just developed the system, and I had a game coming up, so I was able to be the first one to get it before anybody else. Maybe it was the payback for the time warp flippers. Probably. I hope so.

  • Barry Oursler undisclosed Heighway Pinball game is expected to be announced soon, with launch planned for Texas Pinball Festival in November

    medium confidence · Barry Oursler stated 'they should be saying something soon' and planned to get more details in November

  • “It was shocking by how well it went. I figured anything would help, but then they really came through.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~43:00 — Reflects on community support during the 2014 health crisis fundraiser; shows humility and gratitude

  • “Well, it's a whole new ballgame now with the LCD screens and just the technology. I mean, it's probably a big learning curve for you as well. It's completely different, but not even so much that, just that working remotely, it just takes a lot longer.”

    Barry Oursler @ ~47:00 — Acknowledges technological and logistical shifts in modern pinball design; tempers enthusiasm with realistic challenges

    • Tom Taylor
    person
    Eric Stoneperson
    Doug Watsonperson
    Ed Robertsonperson
    Donna Ourslerperson
    [name withheld pending review]person
    Williams Electronicscompany
    Heighway Pinballcompany
    Columbia Picturescompany
    Pinball Profileorganization
    IFPAorganization
    Phoenixgame
    Gorgargame
    Time Warpgame
    Space Shuttlegame
    Draculagame
    Jack·Botgame

    community_signal: 2014 health crisis (Donna Oursler's illness/death) triggered rapid community fundraiser exceeding expectations; demonstrates tight community bonds and legacy respect

    high · Oursler: 'I was shocked by how well it went. I figured anything would help, but then they really came through'; host noted GoFundMe goal reached quickly and personal thank-you outreach

  • ?

    technology_signal: Transition from Williams integrated manufacturing (model shop, field routing, rapid prototyping) to modern overseas LCD-screen-based design significantly increases development time and complexity

    high · Oursler: 'I can knock out two games a year when I worked at Williams... but this is everything being done overseas so it a lot harder... working remotely, it just takes a lot longer'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Fire's drain-heavy design and challenging multiplier mechanics create high replay frustration; Oursler acknowledges personal difficulty with the game despite era preference

    medium · Host and Oursler discussed Fire as 'tough game'; host: 'you're pretty much guaranteed full points when you play me... I get fixated on that horseshoe'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Defender's extreme complexity (12 drop targets, individual resets per target, maximum coils) drove up production costs unsustainably; fewer than 400 units produced despite heavy technical investment

    high · Oursler: 'Defender was a great game, just that the game was so expensive to make and so heavy... more coils on that game than any game we ever made... less than 400 of them'

  • ?

    product_strategy: During 1980s video game crisis (1981-1985), Williams explored novelty formats (Defender video hybrid, four-in-one switchable overlay game, wall-mounted maze/pachinko hybrid Rat Race) to compete with arcade; minimal production, low commercial success but culturally interesting

    high · Oursler: 'pinball was like between 81 and 85... practically dead... trying to find some way of cashing in on the video game craze'; four-in-one made ~10 units; Rat Race ~10 units

  • ?

    machine_intel: Highway Pinball has an unannounced game in development with Oursler; formal announcement expected soon; planned reveal/launch at Texas Pinball Festival November 2017

    medium · Oursler: 'they should be saying something soon... When I go out there in November, I'll talk to them and try and get more of a date from when they expect to have something ready'

  • ?

    event_signal: Oursler's public show presence declining due to fatigue and logistical constraints; hosts note he wasn't at some events due to lack of direct invitation or scheduling conflicts; community wishes for more accessible scheduling

    medium · Host: 'it'd be nice for shows to certainly give you a call'; Oursler: 'I don't go to all the shows because... I don't know, enough vacation time... Maybe I wasn't invited... Plus, they get very tiring'

    • 2:50
    You know, Barry, I see that game, and I've played it in many, many tournaments, and it was in the U.S. Nationals and the tournament that Eric Stone won this year and the Masters as well. And I was watching him shat that in lane like a pro back and forth and back and forth and getting the bonus up. And then it was a whole different way to play Gorgar. I'm not good enough to do that. I like the other way of playing it where you just bash Gor, you bash Gar, you get in the scoop. It's such a fun game even still to this day. It's got to make you feel good to see a game from so long ago still popular today and so prominent in big competitions. People were surprised when they saw a magnet on the game where it grabs the ball on you. There was that too, yeah, for sure. I mean, a lot of different unique things too. And you had a couple of video game pinball machines too. Defender was one that was not really mass produced by any means, but one that I saw just recently, it was the two-player joust game. That is so fun. I don't know if it was ever going to take off, but now that pinball machines are such a big part of home collections, that is a must-have. And I know people that have it. It's an absolute delight to play that back and forth and joust. Yeah, because pinball was like between like 81 and 85. It was practically dead during that period. And we were trying to find some way of cashing in on the video game craze. So if you were to do a defender game, do a joust one based on that video game. I even had a game that mounted on the wall, like a pachinko-type game. I don't know if you've ever seen that one. No, I don't think so. Which one? Yeah, we call it the four-in-one game. It had an overlay you put on it. You changed the overlay. It was baseball, football, poker, and soccer. And just flip a couple dip switches, change the overlay, and then you've got a whole new game. And we figured they can put those in bars on bar tops or mount them on the wall. I had one of those, and I sold it to Tom Taylor up in Wisconsin. He's got my game. If you look up Willie at the Bat, that's like the one game that seems to be online that you can find for it. You don't really see the other stuff, but you can find that one. I definitely have to look at that. And I can only imagine with barcades now something like that would be huge today the novelty of it Yeah possibly You ahead of your time Barry I even did a maze game called Rat Race I do know about Rat Race yes Yeah. Do something different, some type of a novelty game, just to try and keep the business going. Well, there weren't many of them produced, were there? No. I think we only made like 10 of them. But again, it was a flat-top table, and it kind of tilted, didn't it? Right. Like the old Labyrinth games you used to buy. We try and get the ball through the maze and into the holes. But way more unique, too, and a real kind of pinball element to it, too. It's funny, those Labyrinth games, I remember as a kid, too, but this kind of with the pinball twist would have been neat for Rat Race to be mass produced. But like you say, that was at the time of when video games were really coming into the forefront, and certainly science fiction, which we talked about. One of my all-time favorite solid-state games, like top five for sure, Space Shuttle. It's not even about the toy, the Space Shuttle, which is cool and everything like that. It, to me, has my favorite spinner of all time. The spinner on the right-hand side and bashing the targets aside to make the spinner worth more, I find that so rewarding, whether it's on the backhand, forehand. Every time I see Space Shuttle, I always play it. Right, and you want to sweep those targets with one shot, and it's worth a lot more. That was the best part of it. Well, I'm not quite that good, but I try my best. Maybe a couple of bang-arounds. The great thing about when you miss the spinner, you usually get a target or two, but sweeping is certainly a lot better. But what a fun game, too. And then you had a game that was so popular, you made it twice. I mean, I guess you did with Comet as well, but really, I look at Pinbot and then the masterpiece that was Jackbot, too. I still play Pinbot all the time. It was basically the same game, just different rules on it. But it changed everything, didn't it? And that's one thing I wanted to talk to you about, because you made all these solid-state games. What was it like for you when you got a little more programming behind it and now a dot matrix display to do all kinds of different things? That had to be a lot of fun for you, too, and maybe even change some of your designs. A little bit, but not a lot, really, because a lot of that stuff I kind of gave the programmer, Free Rain, or even the guys that were doing the dots on the games, to come up with ideas for little video games and things. But other than that, the play field was more my thing than the video part of it. You know, one of those great dot matrix games, and there have been so many of them too, Bram Stoker's Dracula, which we talked about Gorgar being the first talking pinball machine and the magnet and all those kind of exciting things. Right. You created maybe, and I know a lot of people, Ed Robertson was on this show talking about one of the greatest pinball inventions of all time, missed multi-ball. I mean, that's a masterpiece. Well done on that. And what gave you the idea for that? I just tried to come up with some idea that went along with the movie, because we had the movie script that we read and did as much as I could to try and figure out what features to put on the game. And I remember the mist part where Dracula comes into the prison cell where Renfield was, sort of as a mist, and then he materializes. So I just wanted something that was mysterious. Plus, for years people kept saying, I can't win this game because it's got magnets on it. It's cheating me. So I said, hell with them. Let's put a magnet in the game and have them move the ball right in front of them just to see what they do. It was kind of a joke, but yet it was also meant as a good feature in the game. A great feature, and especially the stacking of that and the coffin and the bats and the rats. It's a spectacular game with so much going on and some tough shots, too, with those lightning flippers as well. Oh, I know. But I like the lightning flippers because they don't flex as much as the longer flippers. Makes it tougher for competition, but it makes your reflexes a lot better. I know. The shots are more solid when you shoot off of those, but you may have more drains on the game because they're farther apart. I've noticed that. Andrew Highway was on Pinball Profile quite a while ago and he talked about the game Dracula and we were talking about Alien Pinball and he said originally Dracula was supposed to be Alien I had never heard that before It was I had like probably 75% of the game done tied in with Alien and then I believe it was Columbia Pictures came up to us and said well the movie's on hold now so we try to release the game around the time the movie comes out and they said well it's going to be another year because we're rewriting the script because remember the third movie I think what was it a prison planet And the script they had, it was a planet run by monks. I read the whole script on it. It looked like a good story, but I guess somebody didn't like it, and they were going to change it. So they offered us Dracula in place of it because we had a game ready to be made. So I just made a few adjustments on there. I mean, most of the shots in the game were the same as Alien, but then I added a coffin on there, and we put different buildings on there. Basically tried to use as much of the layout as I could so it didn't delay production on it. What was Miss Multiball going to be in the Alien world? That's what I can't remember what I had on there at the time. I know it was going to be a cool feature. I just didn't know what to tie it in with yet because we didn't really get the artwork done on it. And did you have bats and rats as some other form of alien? Well, I know we had, you know the alien on there Didn really get that deep into the rules in the game I was mainly trying to get the layout of the game going first Gotcha Where it actually played nice you know some good shots in the game I know that happened to other programmers too where they were working on one game and then whatever the licensing there was an issue there, and they had to not really scrap the game, but scrap the theme and have to try to re-theme it. It's not always easy. I know that was the case. We had a police force, too. Oh, yeah, that's right. That was Batman originally, because I think Python was doing the artwork for that game, too. He did police force. I think he was working on the Batman one, and he had a lot of stuff done on it, too. Well, you mentioned Python Angelo, who we lost in 2014, and I know you got to work with that Transylvanian master of art. Tell me what it was like working with him, because some great designs for sure. I mean, he always came through in the end, did a lot of great work, but, I mean, sometimes it was nerve-wracking working with him because you just never knew when he was going to get something done. He'd wait until, like, the last week to start working on something. You know, he might have had three months on it. And I guess everybody in the office was, like, panicking. Is he going to get it done? What are we going to do? A true artiste. I guess you can't rush a masterpiece, I guess. I know. Or he had something else to do. But, I mean, there's so many great stories of Python. Do you have any that you'd like to share? I'm trying to think. I remember he told me a story when he was, I think it was on Pinbot. You know that the skill shot on there, that spiral shot on there? Yep. I think he was trying to make one of those out of, like, a modeling clay that you bake in the oven, and he was doing it at his mother's house and blew the door off the oven.
    11:07
    Was it a microwave oven? No, it was a regular oven, but whatever it was, whatever chemical compound was in that clay that he was using that you bake somehow, it just blew the oven up. At least that's what he said. I believe it. But believe me, he had a lot of stories. I mean, his mother died three times. Whenever he didn't show up, either his mother had died or he's off on safari with National Geographic. Oh, gosh. I know. He was a character. A funny guy for sure, yeah. Yeah, 2014 wasn't the greatest year. I mean, obviously, I looked at IFPA. The very first event I ever played was the Barry Ousler fundraiser, which so many pinball players came together to help you and your late wife Donna with astronomical fees and whatnot. And that had to feel, in a tough time, feel a little bit good to know that, wow, there's all these people looking out after us and the community really giving back to everything you gave the community. And it's obviously not what anyone wishes upon themselves, but to get that GoFundMe goal reached really quickly and to see the community just come together, that had to feel a little bit nice. It did. I was shocked by how well it went. It turned out a lot more than I expected. I figured anything would help, but then they really came through. And I don't know how many times I've thanked these guys. I've sent everybody personal thank yous when they made a donation. Anytime I was at a show and I was doing an interview, I always tried to thank everybody that maybe I might have missed. It was fantastic. And you got a lot of Facebook friends from that, too, myself included, and people really wanted to get to know Barry. So that's one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you. And, again, thank you for everything you did too. You mentioned some shows you were at. I know you were at a couple this year. Some people saw you at Pintastic. You were recently at Expo. Is it nice to get out there and see these people? Oh, yeah, it's great because you see people you haven't seen in a long time. Every show there's different people showing up there. I don't go to all the shows because I either can't make them for whatever reason. I don't know, enough vacation time or whatever the cases are. Maybe I wasn't invited to it or something. Plus, they get very tiring. I mean, you're on your feet, you know, eight hours a day at these shows or more. So it kind of wears you out. Well, it'd be nice for shows to certainly give you a call and let you decide whether or not you can do it or not because I know they're very well attended with the history that you have, your Hall of Fame credentials, and you've got some shows coming up. We'll get to one in a second. I do want to find out about the latest game that's going to be coming out for Highway Pinball. I know you're associated with that, and there's talk about it coming out at Texas Pinball Festival, where you'll be at. That's what the plan is. I don't think they've released anything as far as the name on the game yet, but they should be saying something soon. When I go out there in November, I'll talk to them and try and get more of a date from when they expect to have something ready that they can start telling people. Yeah, you're going to be heading to Europe very soon for a few weeks, aren't you? Yes. It'll be like a week and a half, roughly. It's great to see you back into pinball in that capacity, too. and I know so many people are looking forward to seeing what you do with Highway as well. I am too.
    14:02
    Well, it's a whole new ballgame now with the LCD screens and just the technology. I mean, it's probably a big learning curve for you as well. It's completely different, but not even so much that, just that working remotely, it just takes a lot longer. I mean, I can knock out two games a year when I worked at Williams, but we did everything there. We had our own model shop. We can make our own sample parts. They can route out our own play field to make just a Whitewood game, but this is everything being done overseas so it a lot harder We have faith in you Barry We know you can do it As long as they give me the support I need I can do it You right That is the key for sure Before I leave you I want to know out of all those games you made and there are so many, you know, Dirty Harry, I love seeing that all the time, and we mentioned Dracula, Doctor Who is so spectacular. What do you think your most underrated game is? Oh, well, that's a tough one there. I can tell you my favorite game is the underrated one. I'm trying to figure what that would be. I've talked to a lot of people. I mean, I know Cosmic Gunfight and Space Station. I know a lot of people don't know a lot about it, but I've heard a lot of good things from people that have played it. I mean, my favorite game would probably have to be Dracula, that and Doctor Who. The one game that always beats me up, well, I guess you've got a couple. Fire is a tough game for me, and it always seems to be I'm leaving all my balls for someone else to steal, and I always have to rebuild, and Jokers, too. I saw that a lot at Pinbird. Oh, yeah. I think I can hit that. I think I can raise the ramp. Oh, there goes the ball. And then the pressure to double your score on ball three. My goodness. Evil, Barry, evil.
    15:38
    Fire's an unusual game, too. I mean, there's no jet pumpers on the game at all. Just mostly ramps and loop shots besides the targets, of course. Do you know enough how fire worked? If you didn't hit the target in time, the next target will catch on fire, then the next one. The trick is try and put out the fires before it spreads. Yeah, Fire is a good go-to game. If anyone's playing me in a competition and they get to pick the game, you're pretty much guaranteed full points when you play me. It's a game I've always had trouble with for whatever reason, and that's exactly the era of games I love, too. I don't know, maybe I'm going for the wrong thing. I get fixated on that horseshoe, and I'm trying to get my multipliers. Oh, there it goes. I know.
    16:16
    And Defender was a great game, just that the game was so expensive to make and so heavy. It had more coils on that game than any game we ever made, I think, because we're trying to replicate the video game. So we had individual resets for every single target on the game, and I think there were 12 drop targets in the game. Well, they only made less than 400 of them. I have not seen a Defender game. It's one I'd like to see for sure, but maybe someday. Yeah, I think I saw one at one of the shows. It might have been Expo maybe last year or somewhere. I'll say call Dr. Scott. Maybe he's got one. Okay. I think one of your most underrated games, and it's a game I love playing, Barracora. You know the whole story about that one? No, I don't. I love the shots. I love everything. But tell us the story about that. That was another game. That was Roger Sharp and Steve Epstein had come up with an idea for a game and drawn it up and wanted me to build a game up for them. We tried it, and they weren't satisfied with the way it played. So I was asked to redesign the whole game. I might have kept a couple of the shots they had, but I just redid the whole game. And I'm not sure how we got the Barakora thing. I think that might have been the company I was doing the artwork for. We came up with just a weird name for it because Doug Watson had this weird fish-headed woman, and we're trying to figure out what to call it. Instead of Barracuda, I'm calling it Barracora. But it was a fun game, though. It is a fun game. It still is. I love that game. And again, so many of your titles, too. Barry, it has been a pleasure to talk to you. I hope things work out with Highway, and definitely for the Texas Pinball Festival, and hopefully a new release from that game, and you get the support you need in all aspects of life, because, again, you've brought in so many people, so much pleasure with your game. So thank you very much. Sure, and I'll talk to you when I get back from those shows in Europe too. I'll let you know what happens over there. Please do. That would be great. And you know what? It's funny. You and I have had a little conversation over the last week or so about another little passion of ours, classic rock. Oh, yeah. I found this band I'd never heard before. I'm like, what is this? It was Greta Van Fleet from Michigan. These kids are just amazing. I thought Robert Plant just was reincarnated as a 22-year-old, and you went on about, oh, you've got to check out this band, this band, this band. God bless classic rock. I know, and this is new stuff, too, but it sounds like classic rock. Exactly, too. Rival Sons we're hearing, and you've got some other bands you like as well. Yeah, the record company last year had an album out that was really good. It's kind of like bluesy rock. I love it. So many people are into hip-hop, and that's got its place, but I like to be a little more hip and hop to some rock, if you ask me. I know. You won't find any hip-hop here.
    18:45
    All right. Fair enough. There won't be any hip-hop pinball game coming up from highway. We can cross that off the list. Maybe there will be if they pay me enough.
    18:53
    You'll do anything. Sure. Rate that check. All right. Barry, thank you very, very much. You're welcome, Jeff. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter. And now on Stitcher, you can email us, pinballprofile at gmail.com. And please subscribe on iTunes. I'm Jeff Teelis.
    19:16
    Oh, mama.