episode three, we're doing it again. And uh I couldn't be happier. Someone made a comment last time and it's a really good point. Uh I have never introduced myself on the show, which is fine because I'm not really the whole point. The whole point is right over here, which I point the wrong way, but I'm Jeff and we're Dirty Pool Pinball. We do all sorts of fun stuff. We do pinball things. We do podcast things. And uh I'm couldn't be happier to be joined right now with Johnny Crap, which I'm want to clarify because your website does say you had an interview a while ago stating that you like the gnome your real name Jonathan Berseron or Berson pronunciation is not good for my French Canadianness. Please correct me. Yeah. No, Jonathan Beron like so it's Jonathan Burggeron basically like Tom Beron the America's uh funniest song videos. So, it's that that family name. And uh yeah, my name is Jonathan. I'm I mean, I'm well known under Johnny Crap. So, like this is something I have to deal with like I'll you know, I'll carry it to the end. But, uh you know, like business-wise, I think Jonathan is like where sounds better, I guess. I mean, having the word crap in it is also not uh you know, it sends a certain message, but at the same token, I mean, you come from you come from a punk rock background. you come from or punk background, you come from graffiti world. I mean, there's a whole there's a there's a bit of a respect to the not giving a [ __ ] attitude that goes along with that. Uh I mean, do you let can we talk about that? You were you you grew up in born in Montreal and in your teens you got into the culture of skateboarding and and punk. Yeah, like for sure. Like um I was always interested by like the the West Coast culture in general. So, uh, I dove into, well, at first it was like BMX. Um, I was really into BMX and then like skateboard finally made it like to Montreal like probably a couple of years later and then um later than in California and everywhere else and then uh I dove into that and then like of course like like skateboarding has like a huge culture around it and that's what you know like hooked me up. Um I you know started like listening to punk rock a lot and uh um doing gravity like uh you know so uh yeah that's that's how I uh I ended up in that world. Yeah. Awesome. What's I got to What's the better trick tre flip or heel flip? Oh, dude. Like we were before that. Like I kind of like started like started like quitting on skateboarding like like doing like tricks when all that stuff was like happening, you know? I was more like the generation of all the boneless no comply and like you know the the old school old school stuff. Yeah. Old the old school the old school tricks for sure. Um, so you you mentioned in our little pre-hat that Montreal is kind of like the the punk rock side project or Toronto or I guess I said it was the side project, but you you said it was kind of a a hippie art side thing of Toronto for for people that don't live in Canada. Can you can you give a little bit of info about what the kind of what the art scenes are like in Canada? Well, Quebec is very like the the background of Quebec is like it was French-sp speakaking and then like within Canada, which is like mostly English- speakaking. Uh we were always kind of like the the province that was like set apart from like Canada, you know? So like we're always like kind of like rebels and so there there's there's a big background of like kind of like hippie music and like punk rock music later. Um, so like I I would say that Toronto is like a bit more like business oriented. Uh, there's more money probably in Toronto than in Montreal, but Montreal is like has this like gypsy punk rock side to it that's kind of kind of cool. Like it's like a good mix and it's like really well mixed to like with Anglo and franophones. Like it's it's a really uh diverse uh like little melting pot here. So, so what age were you when you got into graffiti and and what was what was the most what's the strangest thing you've ever tagged? Uh, I mean I tagged a lot of strange things, but like uh I mean I was pretty young like probably like I remember like doing graph like in a skateboard store on the Southshore like where I grew up and then uh I was probably like you know 14 about then that was like the first job I did but like before that like I I was painting like under like you little bridge like in uh in like my little town and uh things like that, you know. And so you had the uh was that your your moniker was Zen, right? Was that your was that your graffiti moniker as well or no? Yeah. Yeah, I did I did karate from like five to about 18. So like everything that was kind of like Japanese and like you know k like karate oriented like you know karate was like huge when I was a kid like you know like all those ninja movies like sure with shokuzuki movies and things like that you know even like the series with Leven Cliff and like it was all like you know like around and uh then when it was time to pick up like my uh my name my graph name I went with Zen And cuz it had like a relation with uh you know like midstation and like um the letters you know like just callig calligraphic aspect of it. So yeah. Sure. At some point you transitioned over towards the cala man though. So at one point in your artist career you were like you abandoned karate and and pushed it towards uh kind of like Mexican culture. Uh yeah. Well, I had like um it was basically I was doing posters and like I was part of the lowbrow kind of community. Uh doing posters for bands that was p like that were passing by uh by Montreal. And then uh I started doing like more and more like Hot Rod and like some of that pinup stuff. And uh and then like the Mexican aspect of it was always kind of like part of it cuz it was there from um my skateboard years too, you know, with like suicidal tendencies and like dog down skateboard and all that stuff. So and then uh Oh, nice turquoise. And then um so from there uh I did a couple years of I guess cultural appropriation now like so I was really into like that little cavalera characters that like I I you know I kind of build up and then like I was putting him in different like like situations and stuff like that. So that at that point I was doing like some shows at like um Gallery 1988 in LA uh in San Francisco to um yeah so I I did that character a couple of years until I kind of like retired him and then moved on to to different stuff. So So I I guess that answers my other question. And I was kind of hoping that maybe in in some of the pinball machines that you worked on, which by the way, if if you don't know, uh you you have worked on these, which I own some of them. Uh have you ever put a put a Calaver Easter egg or another artist art Easter egg in any of the Playfield artwork? No. None of that uh that kind of stuff. No. Pinball people are big on the Easter eggs. I'm I'm surprised. Yeah. I mean, I have like in Labyrinth we had like a bunch of the the David Bowie rocks and things like that. Um, but yeah, like I I've never put like any personal stuff in it. Um, I know in Dune there's like a little call back to Labyrinth somewhere. I mean, is there is there second game? I'm not surprised that they want to I mean, they're building a brand of new pinball machines. In one of your interviews a while ago, you mentioned that uh the concept of having to manage the kind of creativity and then working with the not selling out but working for a business. Do you find that working in an IP, you know, that has restrictions is is a limiting factor or does that not really come into play when you're trying to be creative with the with Playfield artwork? I I try to service the the DIP, you know, like it's uh I really am brought in to bring their vision to life. Um, so I try to find ways that accommodates me like what I want to do but at the same time like do it with within the the parameters of what they they request, you know. Um, sure. You know, I try to like I really try to have as little problems as possible with a license. Like I'm I'm not going to try to push like crazy stuff or like out of nowhere. um you know like you you just want to you you want to make it easy for them to you know to trust you with what you're doing and like take it from there. Sure. one thing or there's two things that I specifically really love about your playfield artwork in general and that the first one is I love the conveyance of information in terms of like ball path on the playfield and you you can see that a lot more in Dune but we have Labyrinth pulled up here and and you can see very clearly that kind of like the idea of where to carry the ball like you know here that the scoop is is very important as all three characters kind of line up for it and that this pathway here leads into something like there's just a lot of motivation on the playfield that goes into intelligently helping the player or know what to do without even having to say anything. Um, how do you how do you go about even beginning to plan that when you're when you're starting to kind of frame out what you're working on? Uh, on uh on Labyrinth, I had more of a a play field that was already done like the the whitewood was done and the inserts were there. So, I was trying to work with them. Um, you know, you try to like use the elements of the the license to kind of like create some path. Um, for Dune, I had like I was there from the beginning like cuz like on Labyrinth like I was brought in uh most of the art package was done. I only had like the the what's under the glass to do and the alternate by glass following that. So, um, so the some of the work was already done and then when I got to, uh, Dune, like it was really early in the process and we all kind of like all worked together to, you know, like have the inserts placed a bit in a way where I could work with um, with the playfield, like with the artwork uh, a bit like, you know, like easier, like make it easier for me to work with the with what they were giving. me. Sure. Uh, it seems like the details you like there's a lot of detail work and I think maybe that some of this comes from your ink drawing kind of background, but you know, looking at like the sand marks on the uh on Dune and and tons of brick work that go into Labyrinth. What's a what's an area that had so much detail work that it was just like didn't give you trouble, but you were just like, man, if I what am I doing doing all this detail work? Is someone going to even notice this? Yeah. Um most most of it is like it's all done by hand too like like I didn't really you know like on Labyrinth like there's no like like I did five bricks and then just like clone it you know. Yeah. Clone it. I just I really like every brick that's there like basically I drew. So uh whenever like they were moving an insert by like you know a quarter inch like I'd be like oh shoot like there's nothing under there. And then now I have to move all those bricks. And uh so um but yeah, like it's just I I do like adding a lot of details and uh like it's it's a bit of my um you know, it's like every time I sit down with like just ink and like paper like I start doing a drawing and I'm like, "Oh, it's going to be like you know, I'm going to make this one like simple, easy, quick, you know, not too detailed." And then within like five minutes like I'm doing like tiny little lines like to kind of like like bring it way more to life than I was planning at the beginning. So, uh I think it's like it's a it's a curse and uh you know and not a curse at the same time. Yeah. But it gives such a character and detail to the to the games that I think the other artwork doesn't have. Uh do you do you handdraw most of the assets before before scanning them in, I guess, and then and then reworking with them digitally or? No. Well, I mean, I would love to paint everything by hand or draw everything by hand, but it's just like like the the deadlines are a bit like more intense that than they used to be. And then um I just, you know, like you have to work digitally now. Like it's just easier. Like if I have to move something like it's not like a big problem. And uh you know, scanning stuff takes a lot of time too. Like cuz you have to clean them up. like they're never like as as neat as you want them to be. Like cuz I I especially when I do inks like I ink like really clean, you know? So when I scan them and there's like some leftover stuff here and there like I just it's just too uh it's too much like it's time consuming. Sure. And uh with these projects like you need to you know deliver the goods at a certain point too. So, like it's just uh I know some other artists like ink everything by hand and uh scan and you know like it's uh it's it's just too much. I find it depends on the project too. Like I I assume like if I had like some kind of like theme that like would be more appropriate for it, like I could work that way. Uh but yeah, like so far what I've worked on like I think the digital can uh but you you can make stuff too that looks like it's all handone. So So I think the second thing that I think is incredibly impressive about your artwork is the aprons. And I I think that the apron artwork is pretty under uh underutilized in a lot of in a lot of games, but both Labyrinth and Dune obviously. And And as I just pulled up the uh Jurassic Park home pin, which I want to jump into in in just a second since I believe that was your first pinball project with Stern, right? And your gateway into the pinball art world. Uh not not the home pin. I did like the the original uh three games with Keith first. Oh, interesting. Okay. For some reason, I assumed that the home pin was first as it was kind of like the introduction the home pen was like Jack Danger's first game for sure. Um, so it was like basically they they reused some of the art package from like the three previous art package and um and then I did a new back glass for that and a new playfield and the apron like as you see. But uh that was like basically my fourth Jurassic Park before doing before doing the fifth. I was about to say, is there is there a point where you're just like, man, I I would really like to not work on dinosaurs anymore and draw something other than Yeah. So, yeah, I told I told Greg back then, I'm like, you know, I can do some other stuff than dinosaurs, you know? So, so for for someone like me who doesn't know the pipeline that goes into making a pinball playfield, what can you walk us through kind of like, hey, they reach out to you, they're like, we have an idea. You mentioned the Whitewood is either maybe done or maybe not. For For people that don't know, Whitewood is when they're kind of like testing out what the actual playfield is going to look like to make sure it flows well before it has any art assets or anything else onto it. Um, so when are you involved in the project? How How long does it take the production cycle? And uh, yeah, just what is what is the workflow like? uh like so far with each each company because I worked with Multimorphic, Stern and Barrels of Fun and uh like each each company has his own workflow. Um you know with Stern like basically I was brought in and like the white wood was almost done. Uh I was working on the art package before doing the playfield and then they sent me the file for the playfield. Well, first I visited like I saw how the the white wood was progressing and I always was shooting like and stuff like that. And uh then I went back to Montreal and I started sketching for it and uh with barrels of fun it was like very different like you know I was um on that brand I was brought at the end just because um it was already ongoing like the project was ongoing. Um, but when I did the Dune, like I was brought in like from the beginning, you know, like I knew that David was about to sign the license and the sign the contract with the licenser and then that I would be on that game. So, uh I had like a different experience for that one cuz like I was part of the you know the zoom meetings and like we all discuss like what what could we do and uh you know everybody has like a bit of an idea of what they will do but discussing with other people sometime like you you make something better you know like uh like the the guy planning the rules like can tell you yeah but that area is going to be more like that and then he gives you an idea of what to do with it. So, so like you mentioned like what's that? Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. So, like on Dune like my experience was uh was just different than like the previous experiences. Uh Adam Savage posted his uh kind of behind the scenes with uh David and it's funny you mentioned that working in a team and taking ideas and being humble about it. David was talking about how he's trying to keep an open mind because everyone on the team can come us up with ideas and some of them are just so good that they're like we have to we have to entertain this and see how we can integrate it. Um so it's funny that that you mentioned that as well. It seems like barrels has got a really inclusive kind of like design process when it comes to you know start to finish on their games. Yeah, for sure. Like it was very um inclusive like way of working. uh everybody had ideas and you know there's still uh you know we're still implementing like a lot of those ideas right now u and I think it's going to be very interesting to see how the game progress I'm excited for mine it's not here yet but uh I'm also excited for the alternate back glass. Not that I don't like what you've done but I don't want to look at Tim Timothy Shalamé which I I can't wait for the alternate back glass. Can we get an idea of when that might be coming or is that uh is that not not on the agenda to talk about? Yeah, I don't I don't have like uh like any info really to give you about that. I um I wish I could, but I'm assuming you're working on the back glass though. We expect something that's in the similar style. Sound there'll be something. And I mean it's not going to be like something that clashes with the rest of the game. That's for sure. Cool. Uh, so outside of all the pinball stuff, it's also you do you do band uh you do a lot of band things. You've worked for a slew of artists that people probably know. Everything from like, I don't know, Anthrax to Slayer. What is it like to produce merchandise for bands? Uh, it's great. I mean, like I, you know, I grew up listening to a lot of those bands and uh, you know, I remember my mom telling me like, you know, like th those bands are not going to be around back, you know, like when you're older and stuff and they're still all around like it's uh, it's incredible the amount of bands that I listen to when I was younger that I now had the chance to work with, you know? So, uh, it's uh, it's a lot of fun. Um, yeah, I think it it sounds like your mom was wrong because like you're still definitely around. Yeah, she was right about a bunch of stuff, but you know, not uh so um yeah, no, it's like I grew up listening to all that music, so it's it was just like back then thinking about working for those bands was kind of crazy. But like once the internet started like you know being more and more popular and like easier for you to show your artwork online all of a sudden like you had a chance to connect with some of these um some of these people that were in charge of like giving you work you know. So, um I um yeah, like a long time ago there was like a a poster site for like um it was like a gig poster.com. It was like a a forum for like people who do like artwork for bands and stuff like that. And then uh I started posting my artwork on there. And then someone noticed I guess some of my drawings and they're like, you know, did you ever think of doing merch for a band? And I was like, "Well, yeah, but like, you know, I don't know anyone." Like, I was in Montreal and it was someone from uh I think it was someone from New York back then that hit me up and um so they offered me to work on Kid Rock and uh I did a t-shirt, two t-shirts for Kid Rock back then and uh yeah, and then it snowballed from there. Did someone from the pinball community or something see your artwork style from your band merchandise and then offer the opportunity to work on that? What What bridged the gap between graffiti and fine art and your and your posters and merge to this? Yeah, Zombie Yeti Zombie Yeti is responsible for bringing me in. Um, I think we knew each other from like that poster community back then and uh, you know, we chatted a couple times and but that was like it's not like we were buddies or anything like that. Uh, we just knew of each other's work each other's work and uh, and then he hit me up one day cuz Stern was looking for someone to do dinosaurs and then uh, that's that's how I I was brought into pinball. The rest is history. I mean, I feel like that's just a there's a mutual I don't know about history, but you know. Well, I mean, you've worked on a a pretty your body of work is increasing rapidly and you've certainly established yourself as someone who understands the kind of like idea behind designing artwork for Playfields. I mean, it's very different than merchandise. What was the biggest shocker to you from from transitioning from like a a center graphic with text to having to ex, you know, as we mentioned before, kind of describe how to play the game visually? Yeah, the playfield like the playfield for sure was like the biggest thing. Like that's why like sometime like people approach like other artists like to do like a pinball art package and it's like it's hard for them to like see they're like at first they jump on the idea. They're like, "Oh yeah, I want to do a pinball." But then like once you see a play field and like what it needs um as far as like you know like placing the assets and like making sure that like the there's like ball path and all that stuff like all the info that you have put on there and organize it in a way that's not like super chaotic and u yeah. So like you have to to see it and like some artists are like very like you know when they see that they're like dude like I I can't do that like there's like I'm not interested anymore you know so um but you know if you if you stick to it uh there's always people who are willing to help you you know like the art director is going to help you like I had Greg Fry like back then like to help me doing Jurassic Park. So like he was like, you know, a huge help, you know, like it's someone who has like tons of experience, knows what he's doing and uh he could push me in the right direction without telling me what to do. Like, you know, like he let me have all the freedom I wanted and uh but at the same time, you know, like could direct me in the right direction. So that's uh that's like I would say like the play field is like the hardest thing to do for for pinball. Yeah. Uh you mentioned you mentioned Golden State uh going down there since you had done their their poster. Uh do you play pinball? Are you a pinball fan or or is this more of a art outlet? Yeah. No, since uh No, I'm not just in there like just to to put my art on there and then like you know just look at people looking at my artwork. Like I I like to play those games. Uh I started playing as soon as uh Jurassic Park came out. I joined the league in here in Montreal and uh I've been going since uh you know I I hit like you know whenever there's a tournament like I'm there. Um I'm going to Golden State cuz I did the poster and then they they wanted me to come down and see the the show and stuff like that. So I'm going to go down play uh you know hopefully play with people, meet new friends. Uh I like the community aspect of pinball, you know. Sure. That was kind of where I was going. It's nice. Yeah, it's nice to have pinball like games at home, but like if you never go out and like meet people that play the the games, it's like, you know, you're not really in it. Sure. Have you had any memorable encounters with fans that were either fans of your work before uh pinball or is it is it kind of annoying in League where you're just like you're the guy who does artwork for pinball machines and everyone's like that's the guy. Oh, no. like these people don't like really give a crap about me at the league. They uh they're all super nice. They uh you know they acknowledge like you know some of them like don't even know that I do artwork for pinball. It's not something like if we play together it's not something that I bring up like I just you know I'm sure I'm just happy being there. I'm happy being there like playing and uh you know if somebody brings it up like happy to chat about it but uh you know it's uh yeah so what's your favorite game? I don't mind when people talk to me about it. my favorite game. Uh I mean it goes uh in waves I guess like you know sometimes I like something for a while like I was playing Metallica a lot for a while and um then I got into the Dungeon and Dragon one. Um I like the progress aspect of it. Um I otherwise you know a good game of Dolly is always nice between games. Flash Gordon. We have Flash Gordon too right now at the Oh, yeah. But I I actually like brutal games, you know, like like it's I find like the shorter game play that have like really like dangerous shots like I I do enjoy those. Like I suck at them. Like I'm not good at them, but I keep coming back for more. So that's what's so awesome about pinball though is you don't have to be good to have a good time. Just watching the physics balls slam around and even, you know, successfully making a shot can once in a while really, you know, there's a guy Brass League gaming who just every once in a while makes a good shot, but the rest of his play is absolutely terrible. He's probably one of the worst pinball players I've ever seen, but you know, he enjoys it and that's and that's really what matters. Yeah. So, for sure. Um, fantastic. I mean, I think that's I'm checking my notes right now. All right. So, other than Golden State, is there anything going on in the pinball world and your personal life for work that that you'd like to share with anybody? Uh, no. I mean, like right now it's a bit like of a downtime like I have some poster projects and like but no huge project right now at the time. So, uh I'm looking forward just like sitting back and like painting a bit in the studio, you know, like I I like to paint with oils and stuff like that. So, uh I might just get back to painting for a little bit. Um till the next big project and then I know like I'm doing Golden State then uh going up uh two weeks later I'm going to Northwest Pinball Festival, pinball and arcade show, sorry. And then uh yeah, that's about it. What is uh what is the experience? Do you bring a booth over? I mean, are you are you there just as a as a participant just to to appreciate, you know, the event? Of course. Um, like Jerry in in uh, Tacoma like offered me a booth like last year and I was like, "No, like I I don't want to be stuck behind a booth and like I just want to walk around and play games that I've never played like uh, you know, find a sorcerer or something like that and then try them while I see them, you know. So, uh, I don't want to be uh I want to hang out with people and just chat and walk around." Yeah. Nice. Do you have a do you have a a favorite encounter moment that happened at a uh at an event? As someone who's gone to like only like California Extreme and and a handful of others, I feel like it can be pretty overwhelming walking onto a convention floor that's just like absolute like either pinball heaven or or pinball hell depending on how overloaded your senses are. Yeah. I I don't know. Well, I like to just do my thing and just walk around and like play games uh by myself a lot, like just being free to like try whatever I want and you know, not like follow someone else or like someone else has to follow me. Um, so, uh, no, like you know, sometime like I run into people that I've we've been chatting online like we, you know, sort of think that we know each other and then we run into each other at like a show and then can play a couple of games and then move on. So, uh, yeah. Nice. You mentioned uh kind of like the creative reset with oil painting. I feel like anybody that's in the creative world and and doing it professionally knows that like being able to take a moment and not pump the brakes, but just to to get a creative outlet of stuff that isn't being requested by anybody that just is your own creative flow coming out uh is super important. Is there a specific style or is there a place to see any of of Johnny Johnny Crap's uh personal artwork that is not you know that's for Johnny? Uh, no. Like usually like it's just on my Instagram that I post stuff. Like I used to be in the gallery scene and like I got sort of like tired of it. Like it was just like a constant like pushing stuff just to be in galleries and then all the like you do so much work and sometime the galleries don't really do their part of the work like pushing your your work and the it's like a hustle in a not a redeeming way. Yeah. And then like you meet like people who are interested in the painting but they all they want like kind of like cool story to go with the painting uh instead of just appreciating the painting for what it is and like coming up with their own stuff. So uh yeah like I kind of like let that uh go. Um I like to paint just for myself. Like I'm a bit of a I like to do plan air painting. Um, I haven't done enough lately, but like now it's uh, you know, summer is starting. It's finally starting to be nice out here, so I'll probably like put my u my gear together and try to, you know, walk around the city and find cool spots. Like I I like to paint garbage like uh like dumpsters and stuff like that like back alleys. So are you painting dumpsters that have graffiti on them? This is like kind of an inception moment from graffiti and now you're painting graffiti. Yeah, sort of. Like there's a bit of a there's a bit of that. I mean, I always found like the alley is like more interesting than the front of the street, you know? Like the front of the street everybody shows you what they want you to see. And in the back, that's where you see like, you know, like if like the the unclean leanness, I I don't know how to say it exactly, but like it's it's a bit dirtier. It's like a bit like more rough and uh I I do like that. So yeah, I mean grungy urban artwork is absolutely its own. I I lived in New York for 5 years and it really is, you know, even an alleyway can have a composition to it and something going on in there that catches an eye. Yeah, New York alleyways are great. Uh Johnny Button is asking is asking for me to play some Kong, but it does bring up an interesting point. Have you seen Kong's Playfield? Uh, not in person. Uh, I'm just curious your thoughts on there's been it's it's very busy. There's a lot on it. And as as an artist who has done Playfields, I'm just curious what your your thoughts on that. And not in a not to try to bait you to say something positive or negative. It's just as a piece of artwork, there's a lot going on on there. And I'm curious how you feel about is there a place where there's too much on a play field where you kind of get overload or is I mean is there no limit? I'm going to I'm trying to pull a picture of it. Yeah, we always think that before seeing it in person like and then you see it in person it like it usually makes sense. So like I haven't seen Kong in person but I did like the playfield on it. Uh yes, there there is more on it like uh but you know like not every playfield has to be like done the same way like each artist has like his own kind of you know thing to bring to the the table like so um like I do really like like the what I've seen the most of the playfield was like the centerpiece that like you know it's the call back to the old game right for people who don't know the data east uh that never never saw the light of day. Uh is is where is very limited. Yeah. So uh but I really like what uh I think it's like Greg and Kevin that did most of that and uh I really enjoyed that. So um but you know I'm looking forward like seeing it in person. Like I can't really you know I I think it looks pretty awesome. So I'm looking forward seeing it in person. I I think it's kind of funny cuz like it came out it came out at the same time as like Dune and it's like we couldn't be more polar opposites like you know artwise. So like and I think like both kind of work both both approach kind of kind of work in their own uh totally people were critical that Dune was too brown and this and that when I was talking about it and I think that they really kind of just wait till they see the next one but I think they missed it's a UPS game next one UPS like the postal service. Amazing man. My dreams, my dreams of an original IP based on male delivery are coming true finally. Uh, but no, what I was going to say is that I I think that, you know, you picked a very deliberate kind of like threecolor palette for it with the cyans, with the oranges, and with the tans, and then they use the lighting system to help kind of add additional color to it during certain scenes with the dayight cycle. I I think that there's a there's two directions in pinball that seem to exist where one is it's like more lights, more rainbows, kind of sensory overload, and then there's the other path which is kind of like more deliberate design choices, minimal more minimal color palette, and I don't want to say more like educated design, but like just it's minimal in a way that is deliberate. And uh but I I think I think at the same time it depends on the license too, you know. Like if I had something else than Dune, like it would have been maybe like an overload of colors like it just, you know, you you try to like work with the license, like try to represent it the best way you can. Um like Dune, like you know, it's either like people complain. like it's not a world under glass enough or it's too much a world on the glass, you know? So like we're Dune we really wanted to bring the planet and put it under glass. And I think sculpts absolutely make that I mean it's the the pinball machine like what did I was talking with Bowen he was like best uh best ca caverns or best mountains since um [ __ ] what was the games maybe somebody in chat can remember. Uh but it really is like it's truly threedimensional and it really does feel like it's got a whole depth of of you know threedimensional depth to it. Yeah. I don't know if you've seen it in person, but like it I have. Yeah, it really looks cool. Yeah, it really looks cool like in person. So, um and I I wanted to bring colors like basically like the the night and day cycles like inform a lot of the the colors that are on the the game. And um it's also like drawn from like the movies, you know, like the movies they have those colors are pretty prominent in the in the movies. And um so I I brought that in and I wanted to have basically a playfield under sand, you know, like so the sand like they say in the movie the sand gets everywhere like it's basically a playfield that has the sand like falling off from like all the the mechs and the the sculpts and so uh Yeah. Right. Yeah. Divisible says that the table feels very mature and I think that's a that's a good term for it. Also, Dustin reminded me that it was Flintstones that Bowen said that Dune has the best threedimensional sculpt sculpted rocks since Flintstones, which I think is pretty great. Uh, but your point to being in front of the playfield and actually seeing it's very true. And I, you know, we we do have a Kong now, and the photos made it look overload, and when you actually see it in person, like it makes a lot more sense. And I think that that's really important to be able to experience that. uh on the devil's advocate. I'm curious, is there anything that you were doing in the artwork where you're working, you know, on the computer and it just like looks so awesome and then when you see it translated to the playfield, you're like, "Ooh, that didn't work quite how I imagined it." And did it need to get reworked or was it just like that's it? No one's going to notice because it's you're the artist, you have the most tuned eye to be critical on your own work. Uh yeah. Yeah, I mean like as artists we always hate whatever we just finished, you know, like we just you kind of want to move on to the next one and not look back too much. Uh there's always stuff that like I could have polished more or like less or uh move this there. It's just uh you know you just can't at some point you have to put your foot down and be like you know or your pencil down and be like this is done you know like I right whatever I'm doing right now like I could keep pushing it but I will be the only one that sees that you know so uh like that that happened a bit like when I was like trying to bring like little grains of sand sand everywhere like over the over the playfield and uh you know at some on David's like, I'm not sure we're going to see all that, you know? I'm like, I know it's just me. Like, I I do I do see it. Like, nobody's going to notice it, but like I do see it. So, do you think that since it is your third game that it's a sign of experience to kind of know when to be able to walk on or move on from a project? Like it would it would that decision have been harder on Jurassic Park where you're just like, "Oh my god, this is my first one. Every dinosaur tooth needs to be perfect." Yeah. Like the first one was very daunting because it's not like a world that I was part of either. So I try to do as much as possible like uh when it comes down to research before you know like research about pinball you know like trying to see what's out there and like what what I can draw in and like not u not steal from but like influence myself from you know like uh we uh and try to reinvent it in my own you know style. So iteration instead of uh you know theft or whatever like you know I think like any other penar artist would be you know probably say the same thing too like the the first one like it's a bit more daunting you know like as as you do more like and especially like I think playing playing pinball a lot um will make you notice stuff more and like will inform my decisions like you know in the future. So, u you know, I think like doing this one, u now I look more at the rules and like, you know, I'm starting to be a bit more like before that like I was just trying to make shots, but now I'm trying to, you know, see what the shots do and like uh I still suck at it, but like, you know, I'm still I'm trying. But at least I understand more what I'm doing. And what I mean is like I'm it's influencing probably how I'm working on the play field now. Do Do you think not knowing anything about pinball gave a certain kind of like different creative freedom on some of your kind of design choices with Jurassic Park? Uh, no. Like I mean I'm happy with what I did at the time. Beautiful. I have Jurassic Park. If I have to do a if I have to do a sixth Jurassic Park, it would be different, you know, like but uh it is what it is. like I I had the chance on um on the home pin to redo the the playfield. So the playfield like I fixed little things that like was bugging me without changing too much. Um but yeah, that's funny. Uh so we have a few good chat questions. One of them is is regarding redoing work in a previous machine which you kind of touch base on. Before we jump in that real quick though, I have some uh important artwork that a fan did that as a as a fellow fine artist, I was hoping that maybe you could give a little bit of a critique for them. uh and says, "Tell me what you think about this." Um it's uh it's Godzilla. I think I just as an artist uh if you if you could give us like a fine critique of this, what would that be? Ooh, this is nice. That would be a great alternate bag glass. I like uh how somebody dropped uh his water glass or juice over the O. It's definitely not alcohol. Yeah. No. Yeah. It's pretty cool though. Nice. So, you're saying that this could be an alternate back glass for Stern's Godzilla? I thought it was already. I think it should. I mean, if they made if they made a green and white version right away. Uh, so Good Grief asks, he says, "How do you is there constructive criticism in the process? like how is how is the feedback process work between company to company? Uh company to company? I don't it's more like company to licenser. Like I would say like the the art directors in general are pretty easygoing in pinball. Like they just kind of like they rely on you to do your part of the job. um if they have to like you know pull you in a direction that because you're going too far in a certain direction that's not like going to it's not going to service the license properly. Um you know they do that but like so far people I've worked with are pretty easygoing. uh they're you know they rely on you to come up with like cool ideas and like and then implement them and uh yeah like as long as you can get approval from the licenser like sometime the licenser would push back but uh I've been pretty lucky so far like there was no major push back uh on most of the game like most of the stuff I've done in pinball. So, uh, what's the what's the start to finish timeline that happens for like from delivering final assets to getting the call that says, "Hey, we want you to start working on this. What What is the average?" I know that each pin probably has a slightly different time based on what you said between like Labyrinth and Dune, but yeah, it depends on the on the the projected release date. um you know some are more advanced like I I can't really say like when I joined to uh starting to do Jurassic Park uh I think everything was done within about 7 months 7 to 8 months. Oh, that's that's much longer than I thought it was going to be. But yeah, but it's like not necessarily the full non-stop too. U you know, I had I always work on other stuff on the side sometime like you wait for licenser approval and you think they're going to get back to you the next day, but like sometimes like a week and a half, you know, like so, uh you never know really like each one is different. Um, on June we had Yeah, on June we had like like I was part of the theme like from the beginning. So like it was way longer but like the time to do the artwork at the end was like probably similar like you know. So uh yeah I I would say it's about that you know. Did you have to do you work directly with the licenser or does it kind of go through a middleman at the company as a as a Yeah. I know I it goes through either like the art director or like the the guy who dealt with the license, you know. Interesting. Um so, uh Forever Tilted asks, he's like, "What's your dream? If you had a dream pin theme that you could do the artwork for, which which theme would it be?" Uh Conan Conan the Barbarian. Oh my god, I would I would kill for a Conan bar Conan machine. Are you kidding me? Basil Palador original music. Oh my god, that would be so good. Wow, now I really want to. All right, pinball companies, if any of you are watching this, Conan, get Johnny Craft to do the artwork. I'm going to keep pointing the wrong way. Conan needs to happen. Needs to be hand painted, you know, like the old school Fetta looking. Oh, for sure. Who's uh uh Groth? Who's that really famous original kind of like from the early 90s like uh uh medieval artist? I want to say it's remember now. I am terrible with names. Same. That's why I have chat to help me out. They They really carry. They're the ones who are the real stars of the channel. Uh good grief as he says, "Is there a process you follow? Like do you start with the back glass before you do the playfield or side cabinet aspects?" Uh you know what does one inspire the next? What is the what is the since there are so many different components that go into making artwork for a pinball machine inside and out where where does what's the pathway for that? It would be uh I think the back glass the back glass is like what brings the people to look at a game you know uh unless you're coming from far like you can see it from the side and there's only one in the place. Uh usually it's a line start with the back. Yeah, cuz like usually like that's that's what that's what's going to give like the the flavor to the breast. Um that's where you're going to like like you know certain back glass has to have more uh elements from like the game play. Um Dune right now is more about like what is Dune? Like whenever we had like the the posters for Dune like it was always that kind of composition. So, like that was kind of like what I was going for. Um, like kind of a brand recognition, you know. Um, sure. But some, you know, some games like, you know, like you see more action on my Jurassic Park and you see like, you know, with the the truck and everything. Um, so yeah, like I think the back glass is what like draws people like so you kind of tend to start with that. It doesn't mean that you're not going to come back as you work on the rest of the the art package and not going to come back to the back glass and be like, "Oh, I can change this, twist this, like, you know, like move this element." And so, um, yeah, sure. I don't want to I don't want to skip out on uh Multimorphic. I mean, one reason that I I'm doing a lot of these interviews is to help cover some of the smaller pinball companies, which I don't know if Multimorphic really counts as small with how many games they have. Uh, but Bowen designed Final Resistance and you also worked on the R package for that and we've got the back glass for that pulled up right now. Um, yeah, it was Scubbed and Easy. I'm sorry. Scubed and Easy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, I just Yeah. I don't know. I just wanted to plug them so people remember that there's other companies out there other than Stern and uh Yeah, that was Jersey. That was a fun project. It was like a different you know like different type of pinball like right so since the playfield's mostly an LCD screen how do you go through what is the different design challenge with that? Well when uh when Scott approached me to do that uh like his idea was to do more of a static old school playfield for the the like the use of the screen would be more like a a playfield that is more common in pinball. So um so that's what we went for. Uh so like the inserts are there at all time. There's There's still some animation but less than in other uh multimorphic games and uh yeah that was that was a fun project to work on. Yeah. I mean I love that I was like a big fan of uh I was a big fan of TNA too. So like working on Scott's next game like it was I think people are really polarized on Total Nuclear Annihilation and I think that's because it's such a quick playing game and I couldn't be happier about that. I don't think every game needs to be a 50inute tournament, you know, slog. I love how fast and fun it is. Yeah. Um, speaking of Bowen, like I was at Scots once and like we saw Bowen and uh someone else, I forget his name, but like both of them working like playing a two-player game and both finishing the game. Like that was incredible. Oh wow. It was like that's when you know you're just like a different level pinball player when you're just like completing the game. At first we were all playing like on games around that game, but at some point there was like getting so deep like in the game that we were like everybody stopped and like we just watched them finishing the game like back. Was it TNA? Man, it's so hard to get through all 10 reactors. That's unbelievable. And they both did. That was awesome. Wow. Um that's fantastic. Well, again, Johnny, thanks so Jonathan. I don't want to keep using your your shorten. Uh thank you so much for taking the time to to tell us about your career and growing up and doing artwork. Um I have I have keep I keep asking people uh what pinball machine that they would ask to add to their collection. And I keep picking three horrible pinball machines in the hopes that they have no choice but picking them. But uh I think in honor of this conversation, I'm going to ask you a question and I would like you to provide me three things. Uh, Johnny, what's best in life? What's best in life? Uh, I mean, probably seeing two guys finishing TNA. Okay, that's one. Uh, does hearing does hearing the lamentation of the other tournament players count as one as well or no? Yeah, sort of. Yeah. But um and then I would go with uh starting a painting. Like starting a painting is amazing. amazing. So watching people tear up a pinball and completing your artwork in a way that makes you happy. That's That's the path to true happiness right there. Yeah. It's more than starting a painting. I'm sorry. Starting the painting is the best or the worst part? It's the best. Like Like finishing it is the worst. Like it's it's hard to make the decision when you're you're done. But like it's exciting at the beginning when you start it. So do you normally paint large format canvas or small? What's your what's your chosen medium size? Depends of the time I have. Um yeah I I would love to paint like huge all the time but uh you know take space. So yeah also oils are not exactly cheap. Yeah there's that too but I also do acrylics. I do there's I do airbrush like I do do everything. feel like oil paint technologies come a long way. I remember when I was painting it was linseed oil was required in order to make sure that it would you know you could you could keep it uh malible and have it dry in a somewhat reasonable amount of time or at least work with it. is what is what has the current oil painting technology gone to or what's your method of mix? Uh I I work with Liquin like is like um a secretative medium so like it dries a bit faster. Um but uh I mean I say that but then like I I'm addicted to buying new mediums and new paint and trying something else. So, like I I just keep experimenting. Cool. Uh, all right. I'm going to throw it to chat for any last questions. Uh, and then I want to say thank you again and sign off. Uh, Forever Tilted asks, "What do you feel about how do you feel about the three package Stern format for for art kits?" And that is there is there something that it's tiring about revisioning the same piece of artwork in three different ways or like do you prefer doing one art package similar to the barrel style versus Stern's kind of like three tiered system? Um or does that even not even come into your thought process? Yeah. No, like they they ask me to do something and they do it. Well, sure. But I mean more like from a creative standpoint. I mean you're you're taking like do you start with one and you're like well this is the one which one is the one that you're like this is the artwork that I would have and then do you branch to the other two? Um yeah like if we talk about like the three tier like I I would sort of like start with one and then move from there. But like you know like I started basically when I did the Jurassic Park I started I think it was the premium that I did first. So um yeah but like you never know sometime that's the one I have. Yeah sometime like you can be working on one though and then like all of a sudden they're like you know what like I think we probably could use that for for premium instead of the pro too. So like you know like sometime you um you work on something and then like along the way things can change. So uh I I don't have a problem like doing three different packages though like it's uh you know it's just more artwork for me to do. Are they layered files? I'm surprised that Stern doesn't take more of the artwork and and make more merch out of it from that's like inspired directly from the art that is in the games and also that they don't use a lot of your artwork in the LCD screens. And we had a pretty long discussion last night about uh the quality of different pinball manufacturers screens and animations. And I'm shocked at how different the LCD screens are in a Stern game from the actual Playfield artwork and art package in general versus other companies. Uh yeah. Well, that's a that's not really my decision at the end of the day. Um no, I understand that, but I'm I'm it just it just didn't happen to uh didn't happen for me like to work on stuff for the LCD screen back then. Um I also like as far as usage of what I've done like you know yeah my files are are layered and they could use it but at the same time it's like a contract with the licenser like where like you know if they want to put merch out there they need to you know deal with the licenser too. So, um, sure I do know like that they some some art some u some merch was done with some of the the raptors and like the T-Rex uh but at that point like I I didn't have any input on that. So like they basically I guess I mean do do you think a cohesive art package is is important between all elements of the of the game from both the playfield, the back glass and then the animation that's going on? Yeah. Yeah, I mean like that I think like pinball companies like that's what they have in mind when they do it like when the you know like no pinball company is going to be like all right like so the the screen's going to look really like it's coming from a different game like you know so I think u you know everybody thinks they're doing their best when they they put it out there and it is what it is you know like you gota you got to work with what you have and uh and try to to make the best the best product that you can. It's funny you say that too. We've talked a lot about how a lot of people especially pinball people love to have an opinion which I'm sure you're aware of now in the in the world of pinball and uh quite passionately so and people will will [ __ ] and moan for the most part about why thing why a company did this or that. And I and I think it's important especially as someone who works behind the scenes. It's like as you just said like nobody that works at any of these pinball companies is trying to make a a thing that they think is bad or to try to disappoint anybody like they are trying to make the best product they can. There is definitely like a big negative element in pinball company. Um like I do understand like it's you know it's like a big a big toy that you buy but at the same time like people are like overly critical of certain aspect of pinball like u you know like for the first week like when a game comes out like everybody's after like the artists cuz like it's not the color they wanted or there's not like the the right character they wanted they wanted. Yeah. or um but then after that like you know they go after the code guy and then they go after like you know it's like one after the other but like basically usually on the second or third week like nobody hears about the artwork anymore. Like everybody that hated it has seen one in person and they're like you know what it's not as bad as I thought it would be. So and then they just play it and then they have fun with it and then they they're willing to let it go a little bit you know. So uh it's just like what what you hear a lot at the beginning is like the noise and the people who are like really like you know people feel like the need to be in a camp either like for or against that game you know so uh it's uh but you you can't please everyone and I think everyone that works in the industry is really trying to like make the best product like ever you know like they and it's there's a lot of competition and like you know between companies like healthy competition too cuz like it pushes everybody everyone forward you know like and try to go u to go you know push pinball further. Totally. We live in the greatest time for pinball. There's more pinball companies than ever. Uh as a creative person, how do you tune out the noise? Like I mean I've worked on projects where people have loved it and it's it feels awesome and then you have somebody that just says something that's so like hurtful that you're just like man like why? Yeah, I mean I I don't really uh you know I listen to a couple of podcasts but like I don't like I don't think I follow anyone that is really mostly negative. U you know I can take like criticism if it's like something that can help like bring the either the next product or like something like further along the way later. Um, but if it's just negative to be negative, like I I don't need that. Like I don't uh, you know, the the podcast that I listen to are the ones that are fun about pinball, you know, like fun and excited and like, you know, if it's not your game, it's not your theme, fine. But you can also just play it and then if you're having fun with it, you don't have to buy it. You can play it on location like uh so it's, you know, there's a bit for everyone, I find. And uh you've nailed it on that. Yeah, that you don't have to own the game and that there there's no I think that there's truly no such thing as bad pinball just because even if it's a game that you don't want to add to your collection, like you said, you can go on location and play it and you can experience it for for exactly what it is. And even if it's a bad game like Raven or something, like Raven's still fun in this like weird way that it's just like this horrible game that is just like, you know, like a like a seale movie or, you know, just some some absolute trash Hollywood film that's just like kind of redeeming in some way for its like, you know, what it's trying to be. Like for sure, you know, I I do enjoy like there's some game that I like less. There's some game that like, you know, I are brutal, but I still play them. Uh there's games that go too long, I still play them. Uh so yeah, I think there's like pinballs for um you know, there's there's stuff for everyone. True. Uh all right, last question and then and then we'll we'll wrap it up. Good grief asked, "Do you have any creative voice in what color kind of like the lock down, side rails, and legs are for when they do the like special powder coat for everything?" Uh, no. I had like we had some discussion like, you know, as a theme. Um, I think like at some point when I was working on the artwork, it came up like, "Okay, we have to decide where we're going to go with those." Uh, and then, uh, I gave my two cents and, uh, they picked something. I can't remember if it was like what I had picked what they did now. So, but I think uh it came out pretty good like Yeah, it's got like specks. It's got like gold specks in it and it's like I think this like really rich blue. It looks good. Little uh it's a little sandy. So, it's it's nice. Yeah, makes sense. Sand is a good theme when you're making a game about sand. Yeah. I mean, we you know, we're looking for options to put more brown on it. Uh, all right. We got to talk about this because it makes a lot of sense to me. Uh, you know, I've been thinking about this. Nobody says, you know, managa makes a lot of sense, right? So, like, do we can we put it to rest? Like, it's it's turquois, right? No, it's turquoise. No, I'm accepting full responsibility because I say like, you know, petty troy or like managatua like nobody says managatas or twice, you know. So I doesn't have an e at the end. That's fair. Okay. So then what's the what is the correct pronunciation? Because Americans I mean I was born in Robert Englunds so I guess I'm not technically but you know what's the proper pronunciation? I'm pretty sure that's a French word. So it's turquoise. So, uh, but I I do think like turquoise is, uh, is what I hear the most. All right, we've solved the mystery. It's turquoise. And, uh, on that note, I want to give another absolute huge thank you for taking the time to jump on our little tiny podcast and talk about all the important things of pinball and what's going on with you. Uh, I hope you have an amazing time at uh uh Golden State and all the other whatever pinball things you're doing and and enjoy some painting, some well-earned oil painting downtime. Thank you. Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here. Cheers. Uh, all right. So, everybody hang on. I forgot to do this last time, but as we do on the channel, we always raid a channel that has almost zero followership just to make their day. We like to drop in a bunch of people and uh we got a slew of people here, so let's go make someone's day. Um, thanks again everybody for watching the stream. This will be on uh the stream video on demand later if you think it's cool. Check it out. Send it to somebody and it will be on RSS streams as well for real podcasties. Get you a Spotify or whatever platform that actually gives money to artists instead of stealing it. Uh, all right. Later everybody.