I mean, is there is there second game? I'm not surprised that they want to I mean, they're building a brand of new pinball machines. In one of your interviews a while ago, you mentioned that uh the concept of having to manage the kind of creativity and then working with the not selling out but working for a business. Do you find that working in an IP, you know, that has restrictions is is a limiting factor or does that not really come into play when you're trying to be creative with the with Playfield artwork? I I try to service the the DIP, you know, like it's uh I really am brought in to bring their vision to life. Um, so I try to find ways that accommodates me like what I want to do but at the same time like do it with within the the parameters of what they they request, you know. Um, sure. You know, I try to like I really try to have as little problems as possible with a license. Like I'm I'm not going to try to push like crazy stuff or like out of nowhere. um you know like you you just want to you you want to make it easy for them to you know to trust you with what you're doing and like take it from there. Sure. one thing or there's two things that I specifically really love about your playfield artwork in general and that the first one is I love the conveyance of information in terms of like ball path on the playfield and you you can see that a lot more in Dune but we have Labyrinth pulled up here and and you can see very clearly that kind of like the idea of where to carry the ball like you know here that the scoop is is very important as all three characters kind of line up for it and that this pathway here leads into something like there's just a lot of motivation on the playfield that goes into intelligently helping the player or know what to do without even having to say anything. Um, how do you how do you go about even beginning to plan that when you're when you're starting to kind of frame out what you're working on? Uh, on uh on Labyrinth, I had more of a a play field that was already done like the the whitewood was done and the inserts were there. So, I was trying to work with them. Um, you know, you try to like use the elements of the the license to kind of like create some path. Um, for Dune, I had like I was there from the beginning like cuz like on Labyrinth like I was brought in uh most of the art package was done. I only had like the the what's under the glass to do and the alternate by glass following that. So, um, so the some of the work was already done and then when I got to, uh, Dune, like it was really early in the process and we all kind of like all worked together to, you know, like have the inserts placed a bit in a way where I could work with um, with the playfield, like with the artwork uh, a bit like, you know, like easier, like make it easier for me to work with the with what they were giving. me. Sure. Uh, it seems like the details you like there's a lot of detail work and I think maybe that some of this comes from your ink drawing kind of background, but you know, looking at like the sand marks on the uh on Dune and and tons of brick work that go into Labyrinth. What's a what's an area that had so much detail work that it was just like didn't give you trouble, but you were just like, man, if I what am I doing doing all this detail work? Is someone going to even notice this? Yeah. Um most most of it is like it's all done by hand too like like I didn't really you know like on Labyrinth like there's no like like I did five bricks and then just like clone it you know. Yeah. Clone it. I just I really like every brick that's there like basically I drew. So uh whenever like they were moving an insert by like you know a quarter inch like I'd be like oh shoot like there's nothing under there. And then now I have to move all those bricks. And uh so um but yeah, like it's just I I do like adding a lot of details and uh like it's it's a bit of my um you know, it's like every time I sit down with like just ink and like paper like I start doing a drawing and I'm like, "Oh, it's going to be like you know, I'm going to make this one like simple, easy, quick, you know, not too detailed." And then within like five minutes like I'm doing like tiny little lines like to kind of like like bring it way more to life than I was planning at the beginning. So, uh I think it's like it's a it's a curse and uh you know and not a curse at the same time. Yeah. But it gives such a character and detail to the to the games that I think the other artwork doesn't have. Uh do you do you handdraw most of the assets before before scanning them in, I guess, and then and then reworking with them digitally or? No. Well, I mean, I would love to paint everything by hand or draw everything by hand, but it's just like like the the deadlines are a bit like more intense that than they used to be. And then um I just, you know, like you have to work digitally now. Like it's just easier. Like if I have to move something like it's not like a big problem. And uh you know, scanning stuff takes a lot of time too. Like cuz you have to clean them up. like they're never like as as neat as you want them to be. Like cuz I I especially when I do inks like I ink like really clean, you know? So when I scan them and there's like some leftover stuff here and there like I just it's just too uh it's too much like it's time consuming. Sure. And uh with these projects like you need to you know deliver the goods at a certain point too. So, like it's just uh I know some other artists like ink everything by hand and uh scan and you know like it's uh it's it's just too much. I find it depends on the project too. Like I I assume like if I had like some kind of like theme that like would be more appropriate for it, like I could work that way. Uh but yeah, like so far what I've worked on like I think the digital can uh but you you can make stuff too that looks like it's all handone. So So I think the second thing that I think is incredibly impressive about your artwork is the aprons. And I I think that the apron artwork is pretty under uh underutilized in a lot of in a lot of games, but both Labyrinth and Dune obviously. And and as I just pulled up the uh Jurassic Park home pin, which I want to jump into in in just a second since I believe that was your first pinball project with Stern, right? And your gateway into the pinball art world. Uh not not the home pin. I did like the the original uh three games with Keith first. Oh, interesting. Okay. For some reason, I assumed that the home pin was first as it was kind of like the introduction the home pen was like Jack Danger's first game for sure. Um, so it was like basically they they reused some of the art package from like the three previous art package and um and then I did a new back glass for that and a new playfield and the apron like as you see. But uh that was like basically my fourth Jurassic Park before doing before doing the fifth. I was about to say, is there is there a point where you're just like, man, I I would really like to not work on dinosaurs anymore and draw something other than Yeah. So, yeah, I told I told Greg back then, I'm like, you know, I can do some other stuff than dinosaurs, you know? So, so for for someone like me who doesn't know the pipeline that goes into making a pinball playfield, what can you walk us through kind of like, hey, they reach out to you, they're like, we have an idea. You mentioned the Whitewood is either maybe done or maybe not. For for people that don't know, Whitewood is when they're kind of like testing out what the actual playfield is going to look like to make sure it flows well before it has any art assets or anything else onto it. Um, so when are you involved in the project? How how long does it take the production cycle? And uh, yeah, just what is what is the workflow like? uh like so far with each each company because I worked with Multimorphic, Stern and Barrels of Fun and uh like each each company has his own workflow. Um you know with Stern like basically I was brought in and like the white wood was almost done. Uh I was working on the art package before doing the playfield and then they sent me the file for the playfield. Well, first I visited like I saw how the the white wood was progressing and I always was shooting like and stuff like that. And uh then I went back to Montreal and I started sketching for it and uh with barrels of fun it was like very different like you know I was um on that brand I was brought at the end just because um it was already ongoing like the project was ongoing. Um, but when I did the Dune, like I was brought in like from the beginning, you know, like I knew that David was about to sign the license and the sign the contract with the licenser and then that I would be on that game. So, uh I had like a different experience for that one cuz like I was part of the you know the zoom meetings and like we all discuss like what what could we do and uh you know everybody has like a bit of an idea of what they will do but discussing with other people sometime like you you you make something better you know like uh like the the guy planning the rules like can tell you yeah but that area is going to be more like that and then he gives you an idea of what to do with it. So, so like you mentioned like what's that? Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. So, like on Dune like my experience was uh was just different than like the previous experiences. Uh Adam Savage posted his uh kind of behind the scenes with uh David and it's funny you mentioned that working in a team and taking ideas and being humble about it. David was talking about how he's trying to keep an open mind because everyone on the team can come us up with ideas and some of them are just so good that they're like we have to we have to entertain this and see how we can integrate it. Um so it's funny that that you mentioned that as well. It seems like barrels has got a really inclusive kind of like design process when it comes to you know start to finish on their games. Yeah, for sure. Like it was very um inclusive like way of working. uh everybody had ideas and you know there's still uh you know we're still implementing like a lot of those ideas right now u and I think it's going to be very interesting to see how the game progress I'm excited for mine it's not here yet but uh I'm also excited for the alternate back glass. Not that I don't like what you've done but I don't want to look at Tim Timothy Shalamé which I I I can't wait for the alternate back glass. Can we get an idea of when that might be coming or is that uh is that not not on the agenda to talk about? Yeah, I don't I don't have like uh like any info really to give you about that. I um I wish I could, but I'm assuming you're working on the back glass though. We expect something that's in the similar style. Sound there'll be something. And I mean it's not going to be like something that clashes with the rest of the game. That's for sure. Cool. Uh, so outside of all the pinball stuff, it's also you do you do band uh you do a lot of band things. You've worked for a slew of artists that people probably know. Everything from like, I don't know, Anthrax to Slayer. What is it like to produce merchandise for bands? Uh, it's great. I mean, like I, you know, I grew up listening to a lot of those bands and uh, you know, I remember my mom telling me like, you know, like th those bands are not going to be around back, you know, like when you're older and stuff and they're still all around like it's uh, it's incredible the amount of bands that I listen to when I was younger that I now had the chance to work with, you know? So, uh, it's uh, it's a lot of fun. Um, yeah, I think it it sounds like your mom was wrong because like you're still definitely around. Yeah, she was right about a bunch of stuff, but you know, not uh so um yeah, no, it's like I grew up listening to all that music, so it's it was just like back then thinking about working for those bands was kind of crazy. But like once the internet started like you know being more and more popular and like easier for you to show your artwork online all of a sudden like you had a chance to connect with some of these um some of these people that were in charge of like giving you work you know. So, um I um yeah, like a long time ago there was like a a poster site for like um it was like a gig poster.com. It was like a a forum for like people who do like artwork for bands and stuff like that. And then uh I started posting my artwork on there. And then someone noticed I guess some of my drawings and they're like, you know, did you ever think of doing merch for a band? And I was like, "Well, yeah, but like, you know, I don't know anyone." Like, I was in Montreal and it was someone from uh I think it was someone from New York back then that hit me up and um so they offered me to work on Kid Rock and uh I did a t-shirt, two t-shirts for Kid Rock back then and uh yeah, and then it snowballed from there. Did someone from the pinball community or something see your artwork style from your band merchandise and then offer the opportunity to work on that? What what bridged the gap between graffiti and fine art and your and your posters and merge to this? Yeah, Zombie Yeti Zombie Yeti is responsible for bringing me in. Um, I think we knew each other from like that poster community back then and uh, you know, we chatted a couple times and but that was like it's not like we were buddies or anything like that. Uh, we just knew of each other's work each other's work and uh, and then he hit me up one day cuz Stern was looking for someone to do dinosaurs and then uh, that's that's that's how I I was brought into pinball. The rest is history. I mean, I feel like that's just a there's a mutual I don't know about history, but you know. Well, I mean, you've worked on a a pretty your body of work is increasing rapidly and you've certainly established yourself as someone who understands the kind of like idea behind designing artwork for Playfields. I mean, it's very different than merchandise. What was the biggest shocker to you from from transitioning from like a a center graphic with text to having to ex, you know, as we mentioned before, kind of describe how to play the game visually? Yeah, the playfield like the playfield for sure was like the biggest thing. Like that's why like sometime like people approach like other artists like to do like a pinball art package and it's like it's hard for them to like see they're like at first they jump on the idea. They're like, "Oh yeah, I want to do a pinball." But then like once you see a play field and like what it needs um as far as like you know like placing the assets and like making sure that like the there's like ball path and all that stuff like all the info that you have put on there and organize it in a way that's not like super chaotic and u yeah. So like you have to to see it and like some artists are like very like you know when they see that they're like dude like I I can't do that like there's like I'm not interested anymore you know so um but you know if you if you stick to it uh there's always people who are willing to help you you know like the art director is going to help you like I had Greg Fry like back then like to help me doing Jurassic Park. So like he was like, you know, a huge help, you know, like it's someone who has like tons of experience, knows what he's doing and uh he could push me in the right direction without telling me what to do. Like, you know, like he let me have all the freedom I wanted and uh but at the same time, you know, like could direct me in the right direction. So that's uh that's like I would say like the play field is like the hardest thing to do for for pinball. Yeah. Uh you mentioned you mentioned Golden State uh going down there since you had done their their poster. Uh do you play pinball? Are you a pinball fan or or is this more of a art outlet? Yeah. No, since uh No, I'm not just in there like just to to to put my art on there and then like you know just look at people looking at my artwork. Like I I like to play those games. Uh I started playing as soon as uh Jurassic Park came out. I joined the league in here in Montreal and uh I've been going since uh you know I I hit like you know whenever there's a tournament like I'm there. Um I'm going to Golden State cuz I did the poster and then they they wanted me to come down and see the the show and stuff like that. So I'm going to go down play uh you know hopefully play with people, meet new friends. Uh I like the community aspect of pinball, you know. Sure. That was kind of where I was going. It's nice. Yeah, it's nice to have pinball like games at home, but like if you never go out and like meet people that play the the games, it's like, you know, you're not really in it. Sure. Have you had any memorable encounters with fans that were either fans of your work before uh pinball or is it is it kind of annoying in League where you're just like you're the guy who does artwork for pinball machines and everyone's like that's the guy. Oh, no. like these people don't like really give a crap about me at the league. They uh they're all super nice. They uh you know they acknowledge like you know some of them like don't even know that I do artwork for pinball. It's not something like if we play together it's not something that I bring up like I just you know I'm sure I'm just happy being there. I'm happy being there like playing and uh you know if somebody brings it up like happy to chat about it but uh you know it's uh yeah so what's your favorite game? I don't mind when people talk to me about it.