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Episode 77 - Die on this Hill: Bally Dungeons & Dragons

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·42m 59s·analyzed·Apr 7, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Defending Bally D&D (1987) as an underrated gem; difficulty and magic saves are features, not flaws.

Summary

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast hosts a 'Die on the Hill' defense of Bally's 1987 Dungeons & Dragons pinball machine, ranked #206 on Pinside, with guest Josh from New England explaining why the game's difficulty, magic save mechanic, and iconic soundtrack make it underrated despite negative reviews. The episode dissects several dismissive player reviews, arguing that critics conflate personal skill limitations with poor game design.

Key Claims

  • Bally Dungeons & Dragons (1987) sold 2,000 units and was designed by Ward Pemberton with software by Freeman Merchant

    high confidence · Host Alan, introducing the guest and game context

  • The game is currently ranked #206 on the Pinside list

    high confidence · Host Alan and guest Josh referencing Pinside rankings at episode start

  • The game features music by M Bartlow and back glass art by Larry Elmore, an official D&D artist from the 1980s

    high confidence · Host Alan describing the game's production credits

  • The game has magic saves (flex saves) that can be set to allow up to 20 manual switches per ball, with auto-fire capabilities on lit rollover targets

    high confidence · Guest Josh explaining rule sheet details from the manual

  • The mystical million shot is worth 1 million points, which is huge in this game because the score counter maxes out at 10 million

    high confidence · Guest Josh describing end-game scoring mechanics

  • The game features two-ball multiball available from both the left and right sides of the playfield via saucers and up-kickers

    high confidence · Guest Josh explaining multiball mechanics

  • Jack Danger used the Dungeons & Dragons soundtrack music on his stream before working for Stern Pinball

    medium confidence · Host Alan citing the music's popularity in streaming

  • Only three pinball games have the flex save/magic save mechanic: Dungeons & Dragons, BMX, and Hard Body

    high confidence · Guest Josh referencing the rarity of this feature across pinball history

Notable Quotes

  • “I'm not going to die on this one. I'm going to live on this hill.”

    Josh (guest from New England) @ ~2:45 — Guest's opening joke subverting the 'Die on the Hill' format, setting a humorous tone for defending the game

  • “Like this game has more things in common with like EMs than a lot of its like contemporaries in the solid state era.”

    Josh @ ~3:20 — Key argument that the game's simplicity and shot-based design mirrors earlier EM machines, contradicting complexity complaints

  • “I love that when you play a game with just a hard fucking ramp... If you manage to light the mystical millions and hit that ramp, you like 99% chance you've won.”

    Josh @ ~7:30 — Articulates the game design philosophy where hitting difficult shots feels like victory, mirroring childhood pinball nostalgia

  • “No one ever wants to admit they're just bad at pinball. You can't say the game's too hard because it makes you sound like the baby you are. So you have to make up other things.”

    Host Alan @ ~11:00 — Meta-commentary on why negative reviews focus on other aspects rather than difficulty; frames the episode's core thesis

  • “Worst machine I've ever had. Sound is crap and annoying.”

    Pinside reviewer (unnamed) @ ~11:30 — First negative review discussed; hosts express shock at claim contradicting the game's iconic soundtrack reputation

  • “It looks better than it is... The whole presentation is fantastic... but it's not a joy to play at all.”

    Subaru Brat (Pinside reviewer) @ ~15:30 — Representative criticism: admits the game looks great but claims personal inability to execute shots, conflating skill with design

  • “I can't imagine anyone actually liking this machine other than somebody that was a Dungeons and Dragons fan and didn't know any better.”

    Glenn Peters (Pinside reviewer) @ ~17:30 — Dismissive opening that hosts use to challenge reviewer bias; later reviewed as philosophical despite initial negativity

Entities

AlanpersonAlexpersonJoshpersonWard PembertonpersonFreeman MerchantpersonM BartlowpersonLarry ElmorepersonPat McMahonpersonZoe Vrabel

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: 'Die on the Hill' podcast format: hosts invite passionate defenders to reframe underrated/divisive games, positioning the show as a platform for gaming perspective shifts and community re-evaluation

    high · Alan explains the format: 'we invite guests onto Straight Down the Middle: a pinball show to defend a commonly crapped-upon or lowly-rated game that they unironically love. It's always meant to be a way to showcase that there's some fun to be had in all pinball machines'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts defend difficulty and non-standard mechanics (magic saves, tight ramps, no outlanes) as intentional design choices that reward player mastery rather than flaws to be excused

    high · Josh: 'this game has more things in common with like EMs than a lot of its like contemporaries in the solid state era' and 'the game is so fast that it's like, OK, that seems simple, but can you do it? No. That's the kind of games we like here'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Bally's 1987 D&D ranked #206 on Pinside despite iconic soundtrack and innovative mechanics; episode positions the game as victim of skill-based dismissal rather than poor design

    high · Alan: 'No one ever wants to admit they're just bad at pinball. You can't say the game's too hard because it makes you sound like the baby you are. So you have to make up other things.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Older collectors dismiss Bally's lighter construction materials and non-standard features as cheap or gimmicky, contrasting with earlier Williams/Bally games' weight and construction

    medium · Alex: 'I remember when like Stern first started making games and all the guys were mad because like they were lighter... 30 or 40 pounds lighter than like a Bally Williams game, and they're like, these things are pieces of shit'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.129

0:00
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. My name is Alan, your host of this podcast. Here to do a special remake intro of the show because we had a little technical screw up on our end here. Alex and I weren't recording in the same spot like we normally do. We weren't in the Waterboys basement studio. And I lost and was not able to recover maybe about the first seven or eight minutes of our recording. Which means I lost our intro. I lost our coffee plug and some of his quips and witty banter is missing from the first seven or eight minutes. Then I got another track and I spliced that in for the rest of the episode. The only thing I got to do here is tell you about our coffee account, ko-fi.com slash Wedgehead Podcast. You want to support the show? That's the way to do it. You can send a donation and we appreciate each and every one of you. We use those donations. The first trip we're going on is because of y'all. We're going to Pentastic in New England in April, and we are very much looking forward to it. We don't know where we're going to go next, but we're excited to see more great locations around this country and meet more of you and play some pinball on location. So if you want to donate to the show, ko-fi.com slash Wedgehead Podcast. And new to all supporters of the show, you will receive a free Discord link. that'll take us to the private by Chad Pinball podcast discord. In that spot, we talk everything pinball. You can ask us questions. You can discuss the show. And we'll also answer all the news and rumors and talk about new games and all that kind of stuff with y'all that we do not normally do on the show itself. So you want to talk more pinball with us? Donate to the Ko-fi account. Join us in the discord. We'll have a good time. Fun one this week. And I hope y'all enjoy it. You signed your real name? Of course I did. If you believe in something, you sign your name to it. Alright, I'm gonna tell you right now. I ain't crazy.
1:54
This is the ground you'll die on. Are you sure? Oh my God, are you serious? Son, people can see you. I don't tell you what to do with your money. Don't fucking tell me what to do with mine, okay? I'm not as dumb as you think I am. I will defend myself.

  • “The flex save thing is too confusing. It saves the ball itself sometimes but not always, in certain fashions.”

    The Goat Dan (Pinside reviewer) @ ~19:30 — Criticism of magic save mechanics as unclear; hosts counter that it's a simple lit/unlit toggle mechanic, not inherently confusing

  • “Without [the flex saves], it's a very boring and straightforward game... it wouldn't be nearly as chaotic.”

    Host Alex @ ~22:00 — Counterargument that the magic save feature is central to the game's appeal and uniqueness, not a design flaw

  • “Give us something new. You give them something a little bit different, and everyone's just like, we hate this.”

    Host Alex @ ~14:15 — Meta-commentary on pinball community contradiction: demanding innovation while resisting non-standard features

    • person
    Jack Dangerperson
    Danielperson
    Ballycompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Dungeons & Dragons (1987 Bally)game
    Hard Bodygame
    BMXgame
    Space Stationgame
    Pops Pinballvenue
    Rain City Free Playvenue
    Waterboys The Basementvenue
    Pintasticevent
    Pinsideorganization
    Wedgehead Pinball Podcastorganization
  • ?

    design_philosophy: Game design intentionally includes multiple difficult ramp shots (mystical million, ball lock recovery) as high-risk/high-reward mechanics that separate skilled players from casual ones

    high · Josh: 'I love that when you play a game with just a hard fucking ramp... if you manage to light the mystical millions and hit that ramp, you like 99% chance you've won'

  • ?

    product_concern: Players report confusion about magic save mechanics (when they activate, how frequency limits work, auto-fire conditions), suggesting the feature may lack adequate communication or tutorial

    high · The Goat Dan review: 'The flex save thing is too confusing. It saves the ball itself sometimes but not always, in certain fashions.' Hosts counter it's simply lit/unlit toggle.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Magic save/flex save mechanic forces continuous player engagement and prevents passive play; hosts argue this is essential design feature that shouldn't be standard drain geometry

    high · Josh: 'if it's not lit automatically from the plunge, then it's on you... the magic save is immediately part of it. And you have to be on it... why shouldn't this be part of the game?'

  • ?

    community_signal: Wedgehead Pinball Podcast (also 'Straight Down the Middle: a pinball show') expanding reach via Ko-fi fundraising and private Discord community; planning location visits including Pintastic New England in April

    high · Alan: 'ko-fi.com/WedgeheadPinballPodcast... new to all supporters you will receive a free Discord link... We're going to Pintastic in New England in April'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Bally D&D features cascading bonus building (bonus rolls ball-to-ball, capped at 5x multiplier), multiball availability from two distinct routes (left saucer, right lock), and skill-based mystical million shot (caps 10M score ceiling)

    high · Josh: 'you can make your bonus enormous because it goes from ball to ball... You can really get a ton of points just by working over those targets... it lights the mystical million which a million points is huge in this game because the screen only counts up to 10 million'

  • ?

    community_signal: Pinball players demand innovation and non-standard mechanics, then reject games that implement those innovations, creating 'no-win' scenario for designers

    medium · Alex: 'Give us something new. You give them something a little bit different, and everyone's just like, we hate this. What did you do to pinball? You're like, there's no fucking winning, dude'

    • 2:14
    He means it, sweetheart. Well, that's because you're an idiot. I will fight and win because I am the most intelligent. You sure about that? You sure about that? I got something I want to say. Well, all you motherfuckers think you know who Kenny Powers is. Well, I'm here today to tell you all you don't know shit. Oh, I give up. You're going to get yourself killed, and this time I won't be able to save you. I make you laugh. I'm a clown. I amuse you. I'm here to fucking amuse you. Come on, don't bullshit me. Go ahead and go, but I'm not going to stop yelling because then that'll mean I lost the fight. So please leave a key under the mat. I love you all very much. Peace out.
    2:55
    Serenity now! Serenity now! What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. Okay, a simple wrong would have done just fine, but... This makes no sense.
    3:27
    Now we're here to do something fun. This is another Die on the Hill edition of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast, where we invite guests onto the show to defend a commonly crapped-upon or lowly-rated game that they unironically love. It's always meant to be a way to showcase that there's some fun to be had in all pinball machines, and some of these games that are commonly shit on maybe actually aren't really bad at all. You know, maybe after listening to one of these episodes, you might find yourself with a renewed interest in giving one of these games another shot after hearing an impassioned cry for its greatness on this show. I hear it all the time from people. They're like, I sought out this game to play after I heard somebody describe how good it was on the show. This week, we are discussing a hot topic in pinball at the time of this recording, and that is Dungeons & Dragons. but not the latest game from stern pinball everyone is currently all abuzz about we are actually here to talk about the first dnd pinball machine released in 1987 manufactured by bally sold 2 000 units was designed by ward pemberton with software by reeman merchant it has some fucking iconic music and sound from m bartlow it features a true dnd painting as the back glass by Larry Elmore, who was an official D&D artist back in the 80s, and Pat McMahon handled the rest of the art package. We are approached by a listener named Josh in New England, and he loves this original Dungeons & Dragons machine, even though it is currently ranked number 206 on the pin side list. So welcome to the show, Josh. Tell us about why you love Bally's Dungeons & Dragons. Yeah, thanks for having me, guys. I mean, 206. When I saw it on the pin, when I saw that ranking, I was like, that's, I'm not going to die on this one. I'm going to live on this hill. No, but I think what a lot of people struggle with is what I struggled with when I first started playing this game. When Daniel first brought it to Pops is that like it's a hard game. Like this is not a gateway game at all, but it's a game that can very much like make you a better pinball player and like turn you into a pinball sicko. And the more I played it, the more fun it was. And like it's a very simple, straightforward game. Like a lot of I think a lot of people will see the magic saves, which we'll touch on and think like this game is super complicated. If anything, this game has more things in common with like EMs than a lot of its like contemporaries in the solid state era. So so like the main thing is there's 10 targets. They're not drop targets. They're just standing targets. And that's basically what you're shooting for for most of the game, because that's how you extinguish the dragon's flame, which is the main goal, and how you build your bonus that rolls through ball to ball. So you can make your bonus enormous because it goes from bullet to bullet. Is bonus that massive string of inserts cascading down the playfield? And it's the opposite of like an attack from Mars or whatever, because you're not trying to light them. You're trying to extinguish them. So every time you hit one of the blue, yellow or red targets, it turns the light off as you climb up that stop extinguish the dragon's flame. When you hit the 20th one, then it relights it all. And then you have two times the bonus three times and it goes up to a max of five times. So you can really get a ton of points just by working over those targets. But the game is so fast that it's like, OK, that seems simple, but can you do it? No. that's the kind of games we like here on this show is you know easy to explain hard to do yeah but then on top of those targets the game also has two of the hardest shots in pinball imaginable and this is where it gets different than just being like an em so on the right side of the machine there is ball capture and when you shoot shoot it into the lane to lock that ball it then drops down to make a ramp and you have to hit that hit up that ramp three times to hit down three drop targets that aren't worth that many points but the fourth time you get up there that's your extra ball and it lights the mystical million shot which a million points is huge in this game because the the screen only counts up to 10 million and then it can't count anymore um to give you 10 of your max score on one shot okay getting it up there four times is nigh impossible because it is such a tight lane getting in there you can only hit it from the left flipper and you have to be like exact in hitting it in addition to that and then it lights a nice easy shot for your mystical million i assume yeah because then it comes down to an upper flipper on the right that you have to hit across the machine and up the second ramp and even when the flipper is at full power if you don't strike this ball exactly perfectly you will not even start to climb up the ramp let alone like go through the gate to hit the switch to hit the mystical million it is that shot also like going across from the upper flipper is how you get a play field multiplier of two to five times two to five times for your play field but again it's so hard to hit like if you do hit it it's incredible you like you will blow your buddies away while you're playing against them if you get it up there even once but hitting that it is such a tight specific shot like it is very possible to do i've seen players do it like i exist in the pops pinball parlor ecosystem there are amazing players here including your friend and mine zoe vrabel like you can hit that shot it's just like you need to be really fucking good to do it this is also buffeting against probably the thing that most people are like wait isn't there something else here yeah there's no outlanes and that's because the inlanes are also the outlanes this is one of three games that has a flex save which was also on bmx and hard body the best themed game of all time hard body yeah but here it is the magic save and this is a you guys touched on it in your extra button gimmick episode of there's an extra set of buttons that i think are probably the best extra set of buttons in pinball because of how they're placed on the actual cabinet you're physically touching them the whole time unlike the magna save on world cup or whatever which is like an inch or two farther away from your hand so it's like you're always ready to activate these magic saves and Basically, when you see the ball coming into the in lane, you hit that extra button to close the gate off so that the ball will roll through to your flipper rather than just drain out. I was reading the rule sheet, the manual earlier, and like there are there's a lot of logic of how frequently they can be used and operators can change it. Like you only get like up to 20 per turn per ball or whatever, unless you relight them. Interesting. Yeah, like the rules like that. Yeah, I was always like kind of vague on like how it's been a while since I played even hard body and I've never played a Dungeons and Dragons and I'm always curious how that was like limited. It an operator setting which I didn know until reading the manual And it makes sense once you see it in the manual But I always just thought it was like you know you have unlimited control manually It like no there like the most generous one is you have up to 20 manual switches per ball But there is also an auto fire Both of the in lanes have two rollover targets that when lit will automatically turn on those flex saves Oh, OK. And you can relight those by hitting some of the other shots. Like there's inserts for like relighting dust and relighting your sword and stuff. And that's so you can build your bonus again. but hitting those shots also add to your magic saves and so that means you can't really cradle and trap unless you're proficient at using the magic saves i personally have lost dozens of balls like thinking i'm just gonna roll it over simply into like the little nest and then it just goes slightly too far and it's like damn did it to myself the worst the worst is when you manage to catch the ball in between like the little bit of plastic that the flipper is hanging on and the magic save and the magic save is trying to push the ball up back into the play field into the in lane but then just it only lasts for like a second so then it drops out and it's if only i was a little quicker it is very frustrating that way but that's why it rules it forces you to be good it forces you to be on your toes especially the way daniel has his copy set up again reading the manual taught me a lot he has his set on like absolute like i kind of hate my players mode of Like, there's no auto save. There's no ball save. Like, it's like, you have to do it yourself. And that is the best way to play this game. Does he have the carrot flippers on it? Yes, he has the carrot flippers on it. Like, the little sectioned flippers. And they make a very satisfying, like, thunk noise every time you flip them. Like, they're super loud. We're saying for the audiences, Bally at this time had some segmented flippers. They're actually sort of like the opposite of lightning flippers. They're just a little bit longer than the standard three inch flipper. And so I'm surprised to hear that they left them on there. If it's set up that brutally. Yeah. That, that, I mean, that helps you a little bit. That helps you a little bit. No. Yeah, exactly. Like you need that little extra inch or like quarter of an eighth of an inch in order to help out. I feel like if they weren't on there, it would be, it'd be virtually unplayable just because of how fast it can be and whatnot.
    13:00
    It's really like, it's not even training you to be good. is just training you to hate pinball. But whatever. It's kind of rare to get into the late 80s and you have a game with an exposed pop right in the middle like that, so it can throw it right back down at you. It's something that you used to see more often, but you definitely don't see that on many games with ramps, and it's just mean on a game where you have an upper flipper with a difficult shot. It's also wild to see ramps that are almost unhittable for the random person that steps up and tries to play it. You know what I mean? I mean, you have to make one of the ramps happen, too, which is nuts. Yeah, but I love that. I love it when, like, hitting a ramp is, like, winning the game, because that's how it felt when I was a little kid. So I like games that make me feel like that now. I just, when I was a kid, that was literally the only objective as far as I was concerned in pinball. It's like, I'd go up to, like, Fishtails, and I'm like, I'm just going to hit these ramps or whatever. Like, that's all I'm trying to do. So you're like, I love that when you play a game with just a hard fucking ramp. Yeah. I mean, literally, if you hit you, if you manage to light the mystical millions and hit that ramp, you like 99% chance you've won. You've beaten your buddies who you're playing against. That's the fucking way to make it. So I'm looking at a picture of the playfield now is maybe get into the weeds for any listeners. But there's two ball trails, like two metal rails or whatever back. What's the what's the difference? What feeds to which one? Yeah. So there's actually something I forgot to touch on when talking about the ramp. So that right ramp, that's a ball lock ramp. But part of it is, like, if you can't hit those four shots, on the right and left of the right and left pop bumpers, there are up kickers that go to those ball trails. If you get it into the right ball trail, it then unlocks the locked ball underneath that right ramp and starts a two ball multi ball. Oh, they got multi balls in this thing? Yeah. And it's 206? Yeah. Come on. Same with the left side behind that blue bank of targets. that little lane has a saucer in it and that is also a ball lock and then if you hit it into that left up kicker to that other habit trail that is how you start the multi the two ball multi ball from the left side that habit trail also on the left also you can hit is where the ball is going to feed from if you hit that mystical million shot if you hit it up that ramp on the left side that's how the ball Josh you just told us that you can't hit that shot that nobody's gonna hit that shot it's an impossible shot i was told very good players are gonna hit that shot but that's also how the ball is gonna come out if you punch too hard to start and you don't hit the skill shot it is gonna wrap around and come into that wire the skill shot for this game is both a plunge and then recover kind of skill shot because if you plunge it just enough to go up the left ramp it'll touch the gate and give you a hundred thousand points and like that's a skill unto itself but then the ball is going to come screaming down either right into the magic saves and you have to flip off probably a bad shot or it's going to hit the slingshots and then you're going to have to try to fight to recover the ball as it's careening around so it's like worth it for the hundred thousand points because it's kind of a low scoring game in and of itself but then you have to fight to make sure you get the ball like all right josh well give us a quick rundown of just a couple of your other favorite games i think it'd be helpful for the audience to know it sounds like you like really hard games um so can you tell us what yeah i mean popeye rocky bull okay gilligan's out no i'm just kidding all the other die on this little games they haven't had yeah just the pops criterion collection um yeah what the fuck i don't think i ever put together does pops have a single game that's rated higher than like 150 on the inside list oh yeah no no they do i love everything they have but i'm just like they really have found some niche like they like to they like to bury the lead but they have some very popular games too dude they like to pretend like they don't have but they fucking do we only focus on the goofy shit yeah no they have daniel has medieval madness the thing is a monster they're fucking posers they got a medieval madness i thought they only have good stuff like Popeyes. Yeah, see, they don't want you to know that. They even have a Godzilla, I believe. Doesn't Daniel have a Godzilla? He has a Godzilla because one of his locations requested it. That's what they always say. The location requested it. For the brand. I've heard that one before as an operator. To balance it out for the brand, he is on the hunt for a Godzilla, though. Ooh, the Godzilla's a fucking banger, dude. I hate it when I hear people are looking for those, though. I'm like, no, nobody else buys them. Those are very rare. Those are extremely rare. Yeah, I mean, Turns out a Sega game based on an incredible bomb didn't have a lot of games made. But no, in terms of my favorite games, I mean, you said it. Attack from Mars is the perfect pinball machine and perfect game. I can't not walk up to an Attack from Mars if I see it out on location. Joker Poker, I have a lot of love for just because... That's a good one. I only started playing pinball a couple years ago when Pops opened, And that was one of the first games that like I started to make pinball friends of like people explaining what to aim for and whatnot. So and also that game is just like one more game, one more game, one more game, one more game. And I spent ten dollars.
    18:28
    I'm going to say Genesis. No, Genesis is super fun. Ty does have a copy on location right now. It is very fun, very fast, very mean. And that's how I've just been trained to like games because, yeah, I've only been playing pinball for a couple of years and that's how they set all their games up. So now like the other copies of Genesis I've played, it's like, oh, yeah, this is fun. But like, I'm kind of bored after a couple of minutes, whereas like the ones I'm used to playing is just like this game actively hates me. And I want it to be hard, dude. That's the thing about like, yeah, exactly. The ball's supposed to be wild. Hard pinball is fun, dude. we try to get people to understand this all the time on the show it's like because all you hear about in the hobby is everyone's like this game's too hard this sucks or the operator's trying to rip me off or like they don't want you to have any fun or like i really cannot believe that we got into the point of the hobby where we're all into this dumb game where a metal ball rolls down a slanted piece of wood and yet some people are like no this metal ball rolling down a piece of wood should last 45 minutes like i can't believe that that's the spot we've gotten to in the hobby i i really can't believe that because i'm like yeah is that what we want guys like is like this is not what pinball was for you know like 50 years it was not like this and then all of a sudden it's become like this thing where it's like no that's the expectation and the games are being made for that expectation i know it's not necessarily the manufacturers they're they're just building to the market which is this home collector market and the new players dude is this what people fucking want because this is not what i want at all it also like speaking of just like the individual setups like an easy genesis not being fun after you're used to a mean one or whatever that's the problem with a lot of these like underrated games that we do and die on this hill segments if you play a poorly set up like overly slow floaty friendly one they suck because a lot of these games have very like simplistic rule sets and once you make them easy you're like this layout's not that engaging. I can do everything without trying. It doesn't really, like, there's no stakes. You, like, need these old games to be set up mean. If they're not mean, you're doing the game a disservice. Yeah, and I think it also just, like, I don't want to be, like, a gatekeeping dickhead or anything, but like I said, this isn't a gateway game that I would, like, if I was at Pops with my mom to tell her to go play D&D, like, she would have a miserable time with it. But it's like, you know, when people are like, oh, I like pinball, this is fun. And it's like, oh, here's something that like, you know, it might challenge you a bit, but like it is fun. Because like I remember when Daniel first brought D&D to Pops, I hated it because it was so hard and whatnot. But then like as I started playing pinball more and like unintentionally became better at it, it's not like I was like hardcore practicing. It's like, oh, yeah, no, like I get this now. This makes sense. And this is fun. But yeah those first few times I played it when it took when the ball would just immediately drain after plunging I be like fucking hate this play shape and i remember he brought it shortly after new england pinball league season started for league nights it's like you get him to put into it's like just group match play for four rounds and your bonus that you get at the end of every ball is your flame flame award and one guy in one of my groups with D&D after every single ball, whether you got 10,000 points or 1,000 points or whatever, he'd be like, oh, at least you got your Flame Award. The most obvious and obnoxious amount of shit talking.
    22:04
    I was like, man, this is the first time I'm encountering a jerk in pinball, and I gotta say, I hate it.
    22:14
    But yeah, no, so I get it. Alright, Josh, well, we gotta get to these bad reviews here. The whole reason why you're here to talk about Dungeons and Dragons is because it is, you know, a divisive game. As you may have alluded to, it's hard. What's interesting is that I don't think any of these reviews mention how hard it is. They just think everything else sucks about it. No one ever wants to admit they're just bad at pinball. You can't say the game's too hard because it makes you sound like the baby you are. So you have to make up other things. As we'll get into, some of these are just straight up fantasy because they're objectively wrong. but um yeah you want me to you want me to kick it off here alan are we ready for some reviews first one's coming from a guy uh out lantern he says worst machine i've ever had sound is crap and annoying rule set is average at best basically flipped it straight away it looks pretty though that's that's insane wait okay i was in shock to read sound is crap and annoying yeah i'm struggling with the sound because okay if he's talking about sound quality fine i'll give it to It doesn't sound like technically amazing. It's not like THX beautiful.
    23:20
    But like the actual score within the game is probably one of the best I've heard in pinball. Like the music changes every time you go down a different dungeon. Yeah, it goes down a different dungeon level when you start a multivol. And it has like a cool 80s fantasy epic feel. Like it feels like a Clash of the Titans or something. That's what I was going to say. Everybody knows this game, I would say, for the soundtrack. That's probably the most famous thing about it, at least from what I've seen. So it's just funny to start it out by being like, the sound's crap and annoying. And you're like, what the fuck are you talking about, man? I think it was like Jack Danger used this on his stream a lot. Like, he used the music from this game a lot on his stream back before he was working for Stern. So I think a lot of people, because it's a banger, dude. Like, the music on this game is unbelievably good. This first review, not off to a good start. But SixfootSnipe says, Certainly not the best period for ballet games. This game had great sound, but the designers cheaped out and there is no voice track. The sounds of swords fighting are good though. The particle board cabinet and cheat field of the game do show through with no real deep rule set and rather repetitive play. You can rack up a lot of points quickly just by keeping the ball up in the air. The side drains are interesting and quite frustrating at first, but quite easy to get used to, although they seem to be a major part of gameplay, and that shouldn't be. Of the several games I own, this is the one that sits idle the most. I mean, I guess my biggest thing is, like, why doesn't this guy just sell it if he hates it so much?
    24:59
    He thinks that the saves, like the in-lane, out-lane situation, shouldn't be a major part of the game. Yeah, and I'm like, that is the game, dude. That's what makes it so magic. yeah like i don't understand the point like just because the bottom is a little is isn't like the standard there's two out lanes there's two in lanes like i'd love to see what this guy thinks yeah i know everyone or a lot of people hate not italian bottom freak out dude i swear it's like all the online pinball discourse is like give us something new you give them something a little bit different and everyone's just like we hate this what did you do to pinball you're like There's no fucking winning, dude. There's no winning. Like, I'm trying to imagine this game with just a standard Italian bottom, and it's incredibly boring because, like, Alex, you mentioned earlier, like, that wire form up on the top left, that feeds almost 90% of the time directly into the right in lane. So the magic save is immediately part of it, and you have to be on it. Like, if it's not lit automatically from the plunge, then it's on you. And also if you just try to trap the ball as it comes down and like loses momentum, then it's still on you. So it's like, why shouldn't this be part of the game? It's forcing you to do something a little different. And he complains about the game being simple and stuff. But then the complication of the game, he's like, this shouldn't be part of it. It's like, well, then what do you want?
    26:27
    Like, what do you actually want? Do you just want like just stuff a towel into the drain then and have fun? Have fun that way, I guess, bro. like you never want to drain but you think it's too simple and i also have a problem like what do you care what the thing is made out of he said it was like made out of a particle board or something it's like were you were you planning on using it for lumber like i don't just like collector it's very offensive some of these old guys when the yeah when the materials change they're immediately like suspicious yeah and you're like dude when you're especially judging this game 30 whatever 40 now years later you're like why does it fucking matter i remember when like stern first started making games and all the guys were mad because like they were lighter they're not heavy you know batteries make shit seem substantial don't you think if you take the batteries out of a radio it's like this thing's a piece of shit actually you put the batteries back in it's like oh yeah that has got the weight i need 30 or 40 pounds lighter than like a bally williams game was and they're like these things are pieces of shit and i was like easier to move and i kind of appreciate that you know they feel just as solid but people love bragging about how heavy games are people be like oh these jersey jacks are fucking 500 pounds and you're like okay man it sucks i'm sorry for my wife but like other you're just there counting your money dude she's having to move hobbit in and out of a house like yeah she's good for it she's you know stronger for her having to she loves it yeah okay next review next review is this from nitro mikey and he says the worst period for bally midway ever not as bad as hard body but very close one of few pins i would not spend any money on you listen to me go yourself i'm through here y'all done on the other hand i'm certain someone loves it i mean i certainly do yeah i mean it seems like this guy is just bad at games with the extra buttons and the magic saves and like seems like it has poor taste if you don't like this or hard body they're two fucking great games and it's like they're yeah there's very different games yeah there's three games that have this magic save and it's like if you hate them then yeah you can easily avoid them so i don't understand what your issue is one of the few pins i would not spend any money on that is that is such a i'm curious if he means that he wouldn't buy it like to have it at home or if you wouldn't even he wouldn't even spend on location dude that's the way i read that sentence what does that mean for free play locations that have it though does he just not enter at all fucking yeah out of uh i won't even like walk in the door if they have it in there yeah they got a dnd i'm out of here i think you just unlocked the new ultimate disc for a game you don't like like if you want to write the ultimate like just like shithead review about how much you hate a game if you're like dude if this was on free play not only would i play it but i wouldn't even walk in the fucking door you know like i like i don't like knowing that a portion of my proceeds are going to support this piece of shit yeah i'm gonna go to a vibeless warehouse to play all the new games instead all right subaru brat says bottom line with this game is that it looks better than it is i was a dnd player back when and i really like the theme of this game i even added in some extras like a few dice in a few quiet areas the whole presentation is fantastic and the various ramps tunnels teleports and such present a world of possible shots and experiences until you find out that you can't hit any of them i've owned the game for six months and have yet to drop the bridge and hit all three drops in the row it's a keeper because of the graphics and presentation but it's not a joy to play at all what's the matter with you morty calm down you're kind of killing the vibe in here i really don't want to be this person i really didn't want to have to say this this person's just like i'm bad at dnd like i'm like like if you can't like i'm sorry i said i know it's a hard shot like hitting that ball lock to get the ramp to drop is a hard shot but you got the game in your house for six months yeah like i i don't own a copy of the game i just play it when daniel has it on location and i can do it most of my friends can do it not even like the zoe's of my friends can do it so like you don't have to be yeah you don't have to be a world champ to do it so like if you've had this for six months and you can't do it bro like i'm sorry like i don't know maybe there's something wrong with your flippers or something that need to be adjusted. You know, if I want to compliment Sandwich this, I will say like, yeah, this guy clearly loves D&D. That was a very well-written review. He's clearly written campaigns before and is very eloquent. So I'll give him that. Bad at pinball, but good at writing. Good taste in vehicles with the username Subaru Brat, you know, love those things. Okay, next review is from Glenn Peters using his fucking legal name on this one. But Glenn Peters says, I can't imagine anyone actually liking this machine other than somebody that was a Dungeons and Dragons fan and didn't know any better. Actually, Glenn, Superbrat doesn't care for it. I've never played a round of D&D. I've owned my... Glenn goes on. Sorry, Glenn goes on. We'll give you the full thing. He says, really a peculiar playing machine with an extremely annoying yuck chuckle soundtrack. I played this game today at a local retailer and I'm hard pressed to find any redeeming features that would make it worth your while. Anyway, this machine didn't do a thing for me But alas that what makes the world go round huh Thanks heavens we don all like the same games Or we would all be vying for the same ones and there wouldn be enough of them to go around i not looking for judgment just a yes or no not that some of these machines are that easy to find in the first place i like how it gets philosophical dude it's just like it goes like i can't imagine anyone liking this machine like the yuck chuckle soundtrack i played this game i'm hard to press to find any redeeming features that make it worth your while alas that's what makes the world go around right thank you and we all don't like the same games. I respect that part of the review, honestly. Yeah, the implication of that part is like, there are morons out there who would like this game, though. And it's like, yeah, you know, I'll give it to them. Yeah, you're totally right. Like, yeah, we all don't have to like the same things. You don't have to really yuck my yum, though. It is fun. I know what he's talking about with the yuck chuckle of, because when you press the start button, I think like the wizard laughs at you and it's like a really demonic laugh and then because the sound quality is it kind of sounds like a really gross old man laughing at you but like i don't think that's a negative i kind of took that as world building i don't know whatever um i just imagined like a harried gray old wizard laughing at me for wanting to fight this dragon for reasons i don't really understand and yeah just to get counter the initial point i have never played a round of dungeons and dragons the pinball machine is like all i know of that's because we're cool guys that play pinball we're not like those dweebs playing dungeons and dragons doing cool stuff yeah i need my hobbies to last like under five minutes not like over 45 i wonder what the correlation is between pinball players and undiagnosed adhd you're like ah i feel like we all you're like fuck this especially all of us that only like these old like short games goat dan says this game looks absolutely great i couldn't wait to go find one and play it the flex save thing sounded cool the game seemed like a winner but alas it was not to be the flex save thing is too confusing it saves the ball itself sometimes but not always in certain fashions the game becomes a lesson in trying to figure out what the heck you're doing with those instead of trying to complete other shots and unlike the space station which i think is neat because of the uniqueness of doing something different this is just so out there that it doesn't seem to make any sense the sound package is just strange and not in a good way the dragon roaring is okay i bumped it up to a three for that out of ten uh no doubt this This is one of my favorite looking pins from the era. The blue plus all the different levels makes it seem far ahead of its time. The flex feature pulls it back into the stone age and leaves it lifeless and not worth bothering on. Your opinion means very little to me. I don't know if this guy knows this, but generally in pinball, when things are lit, other things will happen. When the rollover targets and the inlanes are lit, the auto saves, the flex saves, the magic saves, whatever you want to call them, will fire. when they're not lit they won't fire and you need to use the extra butt that's it it's not that complicated uh glass it was not meant to be it's too confusing i wouldn't have just said dude it's magic like i don't know it's like this is so yeah like you fucking work sometimes man yeah does the wizard sand always destroy like extinguish the the fucking dragon's flames no it's magic yeah you just gotta god yeah it's pinball magic you just but it is funny to specifically call out the flex feature because i'm like that is absolutely without even having played this game i know that's my favorite part about it because that's really the only reason i actually really love hard body is because the flex saves are so good yeah and like there's so much fun to do yeah without it it's a very boring and straightforward game or probably not very boring but it's not nearly as fun it wouldn't be nearly chaotic it's really funny that he brought up space station because space station is what daniel replaced dnd with at pops after everyone had such a bad time on D&D. So she went from... Someone pointed out, I think it was one of my friends, Eric, who was like, yeah, we went from oops, all in lanes to oops, no in lanes real quick.
    36:31
    Dude, Space Station's a good game. Oh yeah, no, Space Station's great. I also love Space Station. I'm glad to hear those guys own one of those too. But it's just very funny that he specifically called out, no, Space Station is the good game compared to D&D. and it's like man that's the exact sequence i yeah yeah you're like no confusing magic saves okay ready for the last review here yeah let's do it it's from ed hunter he says well this is one piece that would be better offline in the bottom of a riverbed little bits eat some shit you stupid bitch pretty nice graphics but that's about all good there is sounds are okay for that era but it really isn't anything spectacular not versatile at all so it can get really annoying playfield's okay but nothing really exceptional there either gameplay awful scoring is really unbalanced somewhat like robocop lick lick lick my balls it turns over really easy also the bumpers can get annoying after a time straight down the middles happen often if you hit the middle lower pop a lot to touch on here one if you're rolling over this game super easily like that's a setup issue like you need to talk to your operator or if you own this game like you need to make it harder for yourself and you can just do that with settings it doesn't need to be steeper or anything the pop being dangerous like yeah that's pinball man i don't know i don't know what to tell you but there's actually a fun part it's not always super dangerous there's actually a bit of an exploit with the middle pop bumper if it if the ball rips off it too quickly the trough can accept it so it'll just bounce back into the play field and you can keep playing it that actually happened in the lazarus the lazarus by design yeah yeah i mean i think it's lazarus by design flaw ward was like all the kids are gonna love this there was a tournament where that happened to bowen of all people and he needed daniel to make a ruling like can i play that or is an extra ball and daniel's like no it's still a ball too or whatever go for it go with god like and he kept point um so yeah i mean i don't know i don't think what about the unbalanced scoring uh somewhat like robocop i've never played robocop so i would need knowledge on that there's just not a robocop might be the best data east game yeah oh looking good hopefully it'll be a pintastic or something so i can play it i just haven't run into a robocop yet in my short pinball life Like I said earlier, the scoring can be unbalanced if you are able to reliably hit that mystical million shot. Yeah, just like any playfield multiplier game. You won't be able to, though. Right? Like, any playfield multiplier game is unbalanced. That's it. That's what a playfield multiplier is. It's unbalancing. Yeah. Yeah, you're like, if your friend can get the multiplier, they're going to kick the shit out of you. But, like, if it's a difficult shot, that's kind of like... It's why Deadpool... Because the playfield multiplier is off of a random ricochet? It's terrible. The problem with that game is people just kind of slop into that, and then they have a playfield multiplier, and it just fucking ruins the scoring. I remember when I had that game on the floor one time, I just snipped the wires to that target so it wouldn't work. So you couldn't get your playfield multiplier. I was like, let's fucking see what a real score on Deadpool is, because nobody knows. Like, nobody knows what a real score is. Nobody knows. But no such modification needed on D&D, because it's a skill-based multiplier. Yeah, and just from what I was saying earlier about him rolling it over, it sounds like the copy he's playing is set up super easy so that he can hit that shot super quick, or he's getting the playfield multiplier by descending dungeon levels. It's making it sound like it's easy to turn over, which you're saying the opposite, where you're like, nah, if you set it up right, it's not easy to turn over. Yeah, Josh is saying one million-point shot will basically win you a game most of the time. yeah it doesn't seem like everybody's rolling it if you hit a million points on daniel's copy specifically and like so like a good hard copy that's like a great game and then if you're going to like two three million then it's like all right you're having like an incredible game like you are you're great at this so it's like yeah if you can hit that mystical million like you're gonna win but it's like because you had to earn it this guy is just like i don't know if he's if he has it like tilted downward so the ball is always going exactly where he wants it to or something um because no there's no way you're getting that like in all my time on dnd like i've seen i've maybe gotten to like the third dungeon level so getting up that left ramp three times and i'm not like an amazing player or anything but like this is a game i spend a lot of time on i know very well so it's like if i'm not doing it uh like incredible amount of times and like most games are like somewhere in like the high hundred thousands against my friends then it's like if you're hitting that mystical millions all the time then like you should be the number one ranked fpa player in the world maybe the first digit on his copy's not working he's just rolling over six numbers instead of seven all right well uh josh we want to thank you for coming on the show and defending bally's dungeons and dragons uh you know we implore everyone to go out and give these games another shot. This is a pretty rare game, but a very cool game. Looks really cool. Has a unique layout. Has unique features in the gameplay. Has awesome music. Even the haters in these reviews were like, damn, it looks good. And most of them said that the sound was good, although some of them said it was bad. But we want you to go out and find a way to play it. If you're living in... Or find a hard body. That's the next best thing. Another Ward Pemberton flexing game. Yeah, go out and play one of these games and see for yourself. But until next time, good luck. Don't suck. We'll be right back. We'll see you next time.