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The Pinball Show Ep 29: The Great Fan Layout Debate

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 27m·analyzed·Sep 14, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Avengers Infinity Quest design debate: fan layout definition, playfield flow, and rule complexity.

Summary

The Pinball Show hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discuss the newly revealed Stern Avengers Infinity Quest, focusing extensively on whether its layout qualifies as a 'fan layout' and debating its playfield design philosophy compared to Keith Elwin's previous games (Iron Maiden, Jurassic Park). The episode features detailed analysis of game features including the Doctor Strange shot, iron lanes activation via disc spinner, trophy system, and wizard mode mechanics based on flip count rather than ball drain.

Key Claims

  • Avengers Infinity Quest has three flippers, disqualifying it from fan layout classification by definition

    high confidence · Dennis asserts the standard definition: 'Fan layout is a game with only two flippers and goals laid out in an arc at the top of the table.' Zach argues the game breaks the mold with a banana ramp and other innovations.

  • Doctor Strange shot on Avengers uses three optos in a tower to measure ball travel height

    high confidence · Discussed during rules analysis: 'there are three optos on that tower that determine how far up the bowl can travel'

  • Marvel Studios provided voice actors for Avengers Infinity Quest game

    high confidence · Hosts note: 'they did say on the stream that Marvel did provide those voice actors'

  • Wizard mode in Avengers is based on number of flips before ball drain rather than time or standard completion

    high confidence · Hosts discuss: 'the soul gem wizard mode is based on number of flips' and reference comparison to Houdini's flip-limited saves

  • Iron lanes cannot be cycled with flippers on Avengers; must use Doctor Strange disc spinner instead

    high confidence · Explicitly stated: 'You cannot cycle the bottom iron in lanes... you can, you just can't cycle them with the flippers... you must spin the Doctor Strange disc to move those in lanes'

  • Co-op mode not present at launch; appears to be planned for future code updates

    medium confidence · Hosts note: 'They were evading that as well. It sounds like it's coming... they want to let this game kind of breathe first before they go throwing in additional modes'

  • 32 possible trophies available; 24 required to reach Mega Trophy Wizard mode (not all 32)

    high confidence · Raymond Davidson confirmed during stream that '24 of those 32' trophies unlock Mega Trophy mode; some may be mutually exclusive

  • Stern factory has Avengers Premium and Pro models in production

    high confidence · Craig reports: 'recently seen Stern Factory photos making their way across various Facebook and Pinside chat groups showed pics of first run Premium and Pro Avengers games in various stages of production'

Notable Quotes

  • “Fan layout is a game with only two flippers and goals laid out in an arc at the top of the table. This is not that.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~44:30 — Core assertion in heated layout debate; establishes Dennis's definition of fan layout standard

  • “If I want a fan layout, I'll buy a Borg... if I have a third flipper down with the other two, it can't be a fan layout?”

    Zach Minney @ ~43:00-45:00 — Zach challenges traditional definition and questions whether Elwin should be allowed to redefine category

  • “You do not get to redefine I've met people like you before you trying to twist the word of what a fan layout is to suit the definition you want it to be... you do not get to redefine what a fan layout is. You are pissing in the face of decades of history.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~46:30 — Dennis's passionate rejection of Zach's argument; establishes his commitment to historical accuracy

  • “Not only does it look beautiful, but it flows beautiful... this thing may be his best design ever... there is a lot of variety here in these shots, and it looks more flowy than maybe even Elwin's other stuff.”

    Zach Minney @ ~28:00 — Zach's initial enthusiastic impression of Avengers gameplay and design compared to Iron Maiden/Jurassic Park

  • “I like that it's different... It doesn't feel cookie-cutter. I like that he's not interested in going down the fan layout route.”

    Zach Minney @ ~42:00 — Zach appreciates Elwin breaking from traditional design templates

  • “So not enough information on that, but how well you do in modes can help you later on... Bronze, silver, gold... these trophies can be collected for later use.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~55:00 — Describes trophy system mechanics and expresses uncertainty about implementation details

  • “I do like mode completions versus non-completion... I like an end to my modes because the mode is like a part of a story.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~57:00 — Dennis prefers completion-based mode structure over performance-metric-only progression

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyKeith ElwinpersonAvengers Infinity QuestgameZach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonJack DangerpersonRaymond DavidsonpersonJerry Thompson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball has no new title announcement as of episode; Ken Rudberg expresses hope announcement occurs 'this month' but no confirmation

    medium · Ken states: 'with no news this week and no announcement as of yet' and 'Let's hope that everything goes according to plan and we're able to see a new title this month'

  • ?

    community_signal: Heated debate over what constitutes 'fan layout' definition; Zach argues for evolving definition to accommodate Elwin's innovations; Dennis insists on strict historical/technical definition

    high · Escalating argument lasting ~10 minutes; Dennis concludes: 'you do not get to redefine what a fan layout is. You are pissing in the face of decades of history'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Online discussion indicates Avengers perceived as 'least smooth flowing' of Elwin's three designs; criticism focused on Dr. Strange shot creating randomness via post collision

    medium · Dennis notes forum commentary: 'a lot of people seem to be feeling that this might be the least smooth flowing of Elwynn's three pins... coming from the dr strange shot because... that thing's going to just generate bricks'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Avengers Infinity Quest rules noted as 'pretty complex and based more closer to a competitive player's nature' rather than casual-friendly

    medium · Dennis and Zach discuss: 'these rules seem pretty complex and based more closer to a competitive player's nature'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin deliberately breaks traditional fan layout conventions with three-flipper design and non-standard shot positioning (banana ramp, Doctor Strange mid-playfield shot)

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.262

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:10
The Pinball Network is online. Launching, The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:26
It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Pinball Show. We're in episode 29. We are your hosts, Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel. Dennis, how are you today, my lovely, lovely friend? I'm good. We're almost to the big 3-0. We are. I like that we finally hit my age in episode 29. Yeah, here's a little whippersnapper. that's right i've been 29 for about six years but my hair's thinning like a 40 year old oh no or is your hair thinning at all uh not to my knowledge ever been back there looking in the back no i just comb it and it's like there's still hair there the comb goes through it i need a haircut too dennis i had to cancel i had to cancel with Chino. No, I probably decided to get out of the business due to the pandemic. No, no, I still go. But hey, I'll send you a coupon to Great Clips. No. Yeah. Is that where you go? No. What do you tell them when you sit in the barber chair? I tell them, cut it. Cut me, Nick. Cut me. Give me the old Johnny Bravo.
1:43
That got canceled because of Avengers Week. Thanks, Keith Elwin. Oh, no. Avengers cut your haircut. It did. So now I'm a rag muffin. What have you been up to this week? Oh, not much. I had most of the last week off for vacation until Friday, and then I went back to work. Did you go anywhere? No. There's a pandemic. Of course not. You keep social distance in like a woods or something. No. I just needed to use some vacation days because I'm getting a little close to those caps. Those of us that don't work for ourselves sometimes have caps.

  • “I think this is smart. My initial concern when I heard that lighting iron was what activated Iron Man multiball is that was going to be way too easy.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~62:00 — Approves of disc-spinner requirement for iron lanes to prevent overly accessible multiball

    • person
    Rick Nagelperson
    Zombie Yetiperson
    The Pinball Showorganization
    Craig Bobbyperson
    Ken Rudbergperson
    Marvel Studioscompany
    Iron Maidengame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Deep Root Pinballcompany
    Walking Deadgame
    Firepowergame
    Star Trek (Stern)game

    high · Zach argues game 'breaks the mold' with new features; Dennis insists it doesn't qualify as fan layout by definition due to flipper count

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Flip-count based wizard mode (Soul Gem) instead of traditional ball-drain or time-based conclusion; trophy system earnable across multiple mode/skill shot/multiball categories

    high · Hosts discuss: 'the soul gem wizard mode is based on number of flips' and '32 possible trophies' requiring 24 to unlock Mega Trophy mode

  • $

    market_signal: Stern toppers (TMNT, Elvira, Avengers) generating controversy about pricing and utility; predicted to sell out despite debate

    medium · Craig reports: 'Stern topper talk continues... owners and potential buyers try once again to decide whether or not to go in on these high-priced and mildly controversial accessories. Spoiler alert, they're all going to sell out soon'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern being evasive about co-op mode and exact code version number during streams; interpreting as strategic withholding for phased feature rollout

    medium · Hosts note: 'They seem to get real testy when you ask in chat what the code is on' and 'people asked about that [co-op], and they were evading that as well. It sounds like it's coming'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Zombie Yeti confirmed as head of Stern Pinball art department; designed comic book style artwork for Avengers

    high · Craig reports: 'that gorgeous Zombie Yeti comic book style art' and earlier episode context identifies Zombie Yeti role

  • ?

    announcement: Avengers Infinity Quest officially streamed by Stern and Marvel Studios; Premium LE and Pro models shown; factory production confirmed with playfield photos in circulation

    high · Craig reports: 'Stern Factory photos making their way across various Facebook and Pinside chat groups showed pics of first run Premium and Pro Avengers games in various stages of production'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Doctor Strange disc spinner mechanic serves dual purpose: prevents easy iron lane completion (multiball gating) while providing interactive mid-play shot option

    high · Dennis approves design: 'I think this is smart... that was going to be way too easy' without spinner requirement

  • ?

    product_strategy: Walking Dead machine with Titan band installation and pitch adjustment (6.5 degrees) performed to improve ramp clearance and ball survival time

    high · Zach details maintenance: 'I finally got my titan bands installed... did it on walking dead... got my code update installed finally on tna'

    • 2:15
    It's going to hit cap next month, so I was like, I've got to burn a few days. you've got that cool stuff like oh yeah a retirement and uh benefits and insurance well now i gotta go out on the market and buy the insurance they do not provide insurance they give me a stipend uh very for me very atypical weird model i almost didn't take the job because of that because i just didn't want to be bothered for the inconvenience it's like you're a scholarship employee or something yeah it's like hey you're a contractor that's what it feels like almost a contractor except uh they do do the payroll taxes and everything uh i uh i finally i did i tried to catch up on all my pinball maintenance i didn't get all of it done but i got my titan bands installed in the last two games that needed them and i saw you did that on walking dead correct yeah i didn't post that i also did it on firepower but and then i got my code update installed finally on tna it'd been so long there have been now two code updates oh any troubles updating it No. Updates are easy. Oh. What about the ease of replacing the silicone and the rubber in your Walking Dead? That was less easy, which is why I did it first and Firepower second. Did you have to take the ramps out and all that? Not all the way out, but I had to detach both of them, yeah, to it, especially the right ramp. Does it play different? Not really. It's sort of hard for me to say because I did also go ahead and drop the pitch back down to 6.5 degrees. Okay. which is the, you know, it's recommended 6.5 to 7, and I might have been a little over 7. It's still, my ball survival time is about the same, but the balls are now clearing the ramps easier. So, you know, it's not usually rejecting, which, again, it should now take less force to get the ball up the ramp. So that was my hope because I thought, I don't think I've got this set right. I think I've made it overly difficult to clear the ramp. Do you not love on Walking Dead, Dennis, where you hit a shot to, I forget which ramp it was. But once it goes behind the backboard, it might not have been the strongest hit. So it like lingers back there and you're like, ooh, I don't know which way it's coming out. Which way is it coming? No, I don't like surprises. I want it to be exactly what I want it to have done. I like surprises. Well, then let me tell you about the next JJP game.
    4:30
    They've got to be revealing soon, right? Yeah, I want you to give me a surprise on my next birthday. You jumping out of a cake. You can make that happen? Nope. Coordinate it with my wife, maybe? I think I'm allergic to flour.
    4:44
    Gluten. Not gluten, just flour. I don't know when JJP's next game is coming, but it feels like it's getting closer. I don't know. I mean, we know Deep Root's coming soon, and then Stern just has this new game out. It's like pinball manufacturers assemble. Let's assemble our correspondents and see what kind of news they can drum up. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. It's time for TPN Industry News. Avengers Infinity Quest gets streamed, then promptly hits the production line, and topper talks continue. Hey everyone, Craig here again, the Pinball Show's stir news correspondent. Yes, as seen on the Deadflip Pinball stream, Jack Danger got the first crack at showcasing the new Avengers Infinity Quest title live, and was joined by a number of the prominent design team members such as Keith Elwin, Raymond Davidson, Jerry Thompson, Harrison Drake, Rick Nagel, and of course, Zombie Yeti himself. Although sometimes chaotic and difficult to follow the rule set, the stream was still able to showcase the basic elements of the New Avengers game, such as the animations, sound package, ball shots, and game layout, as well as that gorgeous Zombie Yeti comic book style art, and boy, what a spectacular looking machine it is. The initial stream last week was on the Premium LE package, followed a few days later by another stream from Marvel Comics Studios showcasing the Pro model. And don't look now, but recently seen Stern Factory photos making their way across various Facebook and Pinside chat groups showed pics of first run Premium and Pro Avengers games in various stages of production, proving once again that the Stern factory is A++ when it comes to designing and building new pinball machines in a reasonable time frame. Let's hope that playfield printer head cleaning patrol is awake and on the job on those new Avengers playfields. And in other news, Stern topper talk continues as TMNT, Elvira, and Avengers fans continue to scratch their collective heads and debate their price points and usefulness. owners and potential buyers try once again to decide whether or not to go in on these high-priced and mildly controversial accessories. Spoiler alert, they're all going to sell out soon, so don't delay for long if you're interested in picking one up. That's all for this week. Oh, and you can catch part three of my new in-box journey, What to Buy, on the Pinball Show mid-week edition as I dive headfirst into the Marvel Universe with the surprise arrival of Stern's Avengers Infinity Quest. Is my pinball buying future inevitable? What will I do? For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    7:38
    Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Well, with no news this week and no announcement as of yet, I just wanted to talk a little bit about my history as a Jersey Jack correspondent. I've been reporting on Jersey Jack, first with Special When Lit, and now the Pinball Show since October of 2019. It's amazing how many things have changed with Jersey Jack since I first started. They've moved from New Jersey to Illinois. They have some new staff members like Jim Patla and Ken Cromwell. And they've been pumping out Willy Wonka machines that whole time. What hasn't happened during that time is the announcement of a new title. I have yet to gush over playfields and features like some of the other correspondents. and I am super excited to be doing that in, I hope, the near future. Let's hope that everything goes according to plan and we're able to see a new title this month. Even without a new title announcement, it's been a great ride and I look forward to continuing to do this for a long time to come. For The Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update.
    8:49
    Always great hearing from those rascally correspondents. So I bet you're happy that Craig's back in full action, right, Dennis? It's an exciting time for us all, really.
    8:59
    The big news this week was the Avengers. We continue on the Avengers train. And this week we were able to see some of the streams put out by Stern of the Premium LE version. And then followed up on the Marvel stream with the Pro version. Were you able to see any of that stuff? I did not see the Marvel stream. I was able to watch a really small portion of the premium stream, however. And first thoughts? My first thought is that Captain Marvel ramp looks challenging. Yes, it does. It looks really challenging. But if hit properly, it's super smooth. Yes. Reminds me, in a way, of the Deadpool sword ramp. Oh, that's a good comparison. All my comparisons are great. I say good, not great. So you thought that looks challenging. What about the gameplay overall? Does it seem like something that you'd enjoy? Yeah, I mean, it looked fun. It might be. And this is more driven by the comments because, again, I didn't see a whole lot. I wasn't able to watch a lot of the gameplay. I did see in the online forum discussions a lot of people seem to be feeling that this might be the least smooth flowing of Elwynn's three pins. where would i yeah i think it comes from the dr strange shot because obviously that thing's going to just generate bricks whenever you hit hit the post yeah so i think that adds a great deal more randomness than they then they saw an iron maiden in jurassic park so i think it's coming from that device specifically it's adding more randomness and they're and the interpretation by some of that is that's clunk which i can i understand yeah but it's by design it's not like oh whoops I messed up and the geometry is bad. Yeah. For me personally, whenever I watched this stream, I was trying to pay attention to, we've got Iron Maiden, Keith Elwin, comparing it to Jurassic Park, Keith Elwin, comparing it to Avengers Infinity Quest, Keith Elwin. And I've got to say my first impression was. Walking like a man, hitting like a hammer. She's a juvenile scam. Never was a quitter. Tasted like a raindrop. She's got to look.
    11:16
    Oh man, this thing's got to look. Not only does it look beautiful, but it flows beautiful. You threw me off when you said it looks more random and clunky. No, this thing may be his best design ever. You can keep it going. And it's not just a ramp to in lane, ramp to in lane, orbit to the other side of the orbit. But no, there is a lot of variety here in these shots, and it looks more flowy than maybe even Elwin's other stuff. Am I crazy? Not crazy, but I think it's safe to say that's not accurate.
    11:57
    I think, yeah, I guess I haven't been reading Pinside because... Well, it's just none of his other games. I mean, the closest would be Jurassic Park and the Jeep shot. You know, that it blocked shots and would disrupt the ball flow because once you hit that, you're kind of ricocheting into who knows where. But I think this does that more. I think that this Dr. Strange shot, because it's such a critical shot, you couldn't kind of hit the the Jeep shot and then leave it and ignore it if you're accurate enough. And this you need to keep doing the Dr. Strange shot. So I don't think it's a bad thing. I'm just saying I wouldn't say that it somehow has more flow. I don't see how it doesn't. We have a ramp that's accessible by all three flippers. That thing was hitting on all cylinders, didn't it? Okay, so that's accessibility. You might somehow distill that and call it flow. Accessibility leads to flow.
    12:52
    You can't argue that. Flow is all about getting the ball back to the flipper to be able to immediately make another shot.
    13:00
    That's the definition. You don't get to redefine it because you're Zach. Okay, I'm fine with that definition, but when you hit that accessible, because of the accessibility of that ramp shot, Dennis, it flows right back to maybe not the lower flippers, but that upper flipper. Yeah, there's flow to it. I'm not saying this is a stop-and-go game. I think it's a flow design, like Elwin's other flow design games are flow designs, which are all of them. But I wouldn't say that it's got more flow just because there's more accessibility on the shots. I think accessibility leads to flow.
    13:33
    it's all a question of what would that for example what would the upper flipper have done if it could not also access that center right ramp he could have done a different shot that had flow like he did on iron maiden so there's more than one way to get to the flow of it and we were describing using these emotional tones uh no we're not you were i was but uh damn if this thing doesn't have a little whimsy with the way that these wire forms are laid out like i said it's not that standard always just Steve Ritchie star tracking it right back to your flippers, you've got a lot of options here. Anytime an orbit goes up a ramp to a wire form, I'm sold. I love that kind of stuff. The ball keeps going on this game. There's no denying that.
    14:23
    I suppose there is denying this. I don't know what that means. The ball isn't going anymore when it drains. What are you saying? It doesn't make any sense. This is just inserting words to sound intelligent about something. Okay. Twilight Zone versus Star Trek Stern. Does the ball keep going on one more than the other? One game is slow and the other game is a stop-and-go shooter. Okay. Would you think this is closer to Star Trek or Twilight Zone? It's more flow than it is. But it's not Star Trek level of flow.
    14:59
    Elwynn gives you more breaks. That's the difference. Now, I could argue the Star Trek thing, but... I mean, yeah, you could try, but... So, Star Trek gives you essentially three breaks that I know of. There is the shot up the center into the Vengeance behind the drop target. That's a break. There's a scoop on the left. That's a break. And then they're shooting back into the shooter lane. That's a break. That's it. Okay. Whereas, like, Elwynn does things like, all right, going into the Doctor Strange shot into the subway. That's a break. He's got that up post. That's a ball walk, though. flipper, which is a delay. It's a break. A break of a ball lock. And wire forms are slower, and the way he laid them out is more meandering than you see in Star Trek. I'm not talking about speed, Dennis. I'm just talking about flow. It's different speed. No, I'm not saying. Quit trying to twist my words into me saying that it's not a flow game. I've already said it's a flow game. You're being pedantic at this point.
    15:53
    Where's the other break set on this game? The fact that it's wire form that slows the ball down, that is a pause before the ball gets back to the flipper and thus it's a break. You know what that is? That's a stretch.
    16:05
    What? No. Take out a stopwatch and measure it. You don't even need a stopwatch. You can just say one Mississippi, two Mississippi and figure out which one does the ball go back to the flipper in your face more. Stern Star Trek or Stern Avengers. I thought the definition of break was one that the ball stops. Not that it slows down.
    16:22
    You're saying a break is any time it's not. To me a break is can you or can you not manipulate the ball with the flippers? That's how I'm defining a break okay anything that so it's like because in a way all right so scoop is a break but you know it's to me you're you're trying to slice things really thin i mean think about the scoop on tna okay i mean it's it's a disruption but it's not like a normal scoop break is it unless you go back in and change the settings that thing is brutal it's it's more brutal than a ramp shot Might this game have more shots than Star Trek? Probably, I think so. Okay. So you're allowed another break or two then?
    17:02
    You're allowed to have as many breaks. I'm not saying the breaks are a bad thing. I'm just saying don't act like that it's not a slower playing pen.
    17:10
    And these breaks disrupt flow because they give you like the up post on the upper flipper. That's by design. That is a stop and go shot by design. Jurassic Park and Iron Maiden, yes. I think that Elwin likes to have a few stop-and-go shot moments.
    17:26
    Kind of like he had that up post also with Jurassic Park on the lower left flipper. And Iron Maiden upper middle. Yeah, no, that's – and I think what I like about this is it looks – the layout is dramatically different than his first two. Yes. Jurassic Park looks a little bit derivative of Iron Maiden, whereas this does not at all. It just looks completely different to me. I don't know what this reminds me of. It doesn't remind me of anything, which is what I like. And what I do, I mean, obviously, because he favors more than two flippers, none of his layouts are fan layouts, but that he's also issuing things like shoot the left orbit to come out the right orbit sort of stuff.
    18:08
    That's different. How do you feel about that? Because I like that kind of stuff. It's less flowy because, I mean, it could be. It depends where the ball pops out. I need to caution that. But we're used to having – you shoot the left orbit with your right flipper and the ball is going to come out the right orbit to your left. We're used to that. But I like that it's different. And as long as it still feels good to shoot, isn't different better?
    18:31
    To me, it is. I think so. I mean that's a judgment call. So yeah, I like that. Yeah, it doesn't feel cookie-cutter. I like that he's not interested in going down the fan layout route. If I want a fan layout, I'll buy a Borg. I'm looking at this right now. Is this not the definition of a fan layout? Looks like it to me. No, it's not a fan layout.
    18:52
    Fan layout cannot have more than two flippers, so it's already disqualified. Do I have to go further? Just because that is a written rule for past games doesn't mean that he hasn't broken the mold here. Oh, so you're saying he gets to redefine what a fan layout is. He's able to design something that's a fan layout. This angle is a bunch of crap. You're inserting drama where there is no drama. is not a fan layout. If you ask Elwin, he'll tell you it's not a fan layout. So let's move on from that. Give me one based on, though. Based on what? I've already told you. It already is disqualified definitionally. So if I have a third flipper down with the other two, it can't be a fan layout?
    19:30
    Exactly. By definition alone, that's a dumb definition. By definition, a fan layout is a two-flipper layout. You want another item, the Doctor Strange shot, the spinny disc? Okay. It being in the lower portion of the play field? All shots on a fan layout have to be in the back.
    19:47
    What? I'm fascinated that someone who's been in this hobby this long actually does not know what a fan layout is. This is very interesting. Apparently not. Okay, if I have all my shots midway up the play field, but it looks like a fucking John Borg or a Steve Ritchie two-flipper, they can't be because the shots are too far forward? If the shots are too far forward, like take Deadpool, for example. The drop target bank with little Deadpool? It disrupts the fan nature of the shots. The shots are towards the back and they are spread out and to some degree like a folding fan. They don't have to be perfectly aligned in folding fan. They don't have to all be symmetrically spaced because folding fan, you open up. How spaced they are depends which side you open more. I would argue that he broke the mold here with that banana ramp because without it, setting up that side ramp where it's only accessible by a third flipper, then yes, that would break the fan layout. However, there are nine shots set up on this game in a fucking fan pattern.
    20:55
    I'm looking at the game right now. You can look at the game all you want. I'm sticking with the standard definition, which you can look up on Pinsight if you want to pull it up. but a fan layout is a game with only two flippers and goals laid out in an arc at the top of the table this is not that so you can break the mold all you want he's got new things in here i think the banana ramp is a good case in point do not sit here you've already wasted 10 minutes of my time trying to argue it's something that it's not nor would its creator ever claim it is we're enlightening people no who doesn't know what a fan fucking layout is evidently you this is a fan layout this is not a fan layout it is disqualified on the flipper count alone just because things were wrong in the past doesn't mean we can't make it better you do not get to redefine I've met people like you before you trying to twist the word of what a fan layout is to suit the definition you want it to be you do not have the authority in this hobby to redefine what a fan layout is You are pissing in the face of decades of history
    21:55
    Period. The lineup? I refuse to continue this conversation. This is absolutely pointless. I cannot believe you sat here and wasted my time trying to redefine what a fucking fan layout is. Quit asking about a picture. There's a definition. This clearly doesn't meet it. Done. It is done. hybrid there you can twist and make a new definition if you want you do not get a redefined fan layout and i'm done talking about it okay we'll we'll move on i think it's easy oh really oh will we yeah i think so okay let's talk about the rules and argue about those i'm not gonna be as passionate about the rules unless you start saying it's like it's not a mode-based pen you probably are stop these aren't really molds dennis uh nagel and elwynn broke the mold on what a mode means oh it's a mode mint baby oh god okay my dander is up it's about time i like this i don't favorite type of cream sundays are supposed to be calm days for those that don't know we record on sunday yeah well thanks for pulling back the curtain there so some of the things we talked about the very target remember we were like i guess and it was very much like you were saying there's three optos on that tower that determine how far up the bowl can travel thus you know measuring the height of uh the very the variable is it is it hard to get it all the way i didn't watch enough to get a sense is it hard to get it all the way back it didn't seem so it seems like a solid fan layout shot right there that goes oh my god it's well then i think maybe that's a little bit of a waste on the bom if it's if it's easy to get it all the way up then what's of the point. I know. I wondered that as well. But for the listener, there are three optos in there.
    23:43
    As we were seeing it and hearing it, we were listening and the music, the voice acting, they did say on the stream that Marvel did provide those voice actors. Now that's interesting.
    23:56
    So is this from the, do they have TV shows or something? I just imagine Marvel is a comic company. Who are their voice actors? I don't know if Marvel maybe has just a core of voice actors That jump into any animated series or commercials Or, you know, they're approved That would make sense, yeah It's like Disney, right? You have to go to Disney College before you can work there They have to go to like How to sound like a superhero or a villain Do you think you'd be a superhero or a villain At the Marvel Voice Over University? I would be shocked if they would give me a job at all What?
    24:31
    Don't cut yourself short. My voice ranges are... It was you who told me I had two voices, and one of them was my normal one.
    24:41
    Yeah, but it's gold, babe. I can see you doing some great villain voice work. Probably pull off a good Wario.
    24:50
    See? There it is. The music on this game, the code is done there. So the music you hear, that is the music. But they did say it could always be adjusted, but it is full and it is complete. We don't know where the code is on this. They seem to get real testy when you ask in chat what the code is on. Oh, did they not say the version number yet? No. Hmm. They were like, it's the version that it's at. I was surprised that co-op wasn't in from the get-go. Yeah, yeah, and people asked about that, and they were evading that as well. It sounds like it's coming. but my interpretation is they want to let this game kind of breathe first before they go throwing in additional modes. Maybe that's a good idea because some of the feedback that they received after seeing gameplay is, boy, these rules seem pretty complex and based more closer to a competitive player's nature. Yeah, okay. We know that the action button activates gems with special powers. that sounds like a good on the surface I think that's a good implementation I like the sound of that the soul gem wizard mode is based on number of flips now this is my wheelhouse I love these kind of novelties starting a wizard mode and only getting a number of flips before you die rather than just relying on the ball drain as the end of a mode or a wizard mode or a ball I mean we've seen other variants like timed wizard modes as well But it's interesting to do the number of flips I do like the number of flips I remember Houdini Where you get like an outlay and save But it gives you a number of flips To be able to hit so many things to save your ball I do like that in pinball I'm a bit mixed on this next one though Performance during modes During skill shots During multi-balls They can earn you different trophies Bronze, silver, gold Then I think it was Ray Day that said these trophies can be collected for later use. So I'm like, is it like a gym? Is it not like a gym? Is it just expanding Kobayashi Maru? Are we just expanding the scores in certain wizard modes because of the trophies you have? So not enough information on that, but how well you do in modes can help you later on. And not just modes, skill shots, multiballs, et cetera. Do you like the idea of that? Yeah, I'll have to see how ultimately it's applied. But when I heard about the trophy idea, that was my thought as well. Stern Star Trek and the metal system, which I think broadly speaking was very well accepted by most people as a fun code thing. Yeah.
    27:35
    It incentivized you to try and do better rather than just time out the mode. But am I crazy? I like mode completions versus non-completion. That's the criteria that I like. Do you qualify it for a special wizard mode if you actually complete it? I like an end to my modes because the mode is like a part of a story. Sure. And I'd say most – I've not done an analysis to know this. It's been my impression that most of Stern's games do that style though. So we do get it a lot and maybe a little bit of variety is okay. And you might – once you get the gold, maybe that completes the mode. Well, and another thing, I think it was just the scores within Star Trek modes determined what medal you got. But especially once you got to level two and level three mission modes, you did have to complete them to get credit. Correct, yes. You go back in and you'd have to keep working at them. That's why it gets so much harder as you go. So even that game, it was only the level ones where you just had to survive for a set period of time and it counted as full complete. yeah and that's that's that was one of the sticking points for me over time owning a star track i didn't want to have to start those modes first because it just felt like i don't know just you can complete them but just didn't feel as good well you couldn't just trap up i mean they took away maybe maybe early on you could but by final code you i mean you did have to have hit switch hits show that you were shooting around you couldn't just do a 90s williams yes bunch of crap and hold the other ball on your flipper i don't know how well i like the idea of calling them trophies in this universe though yeah thematically it doesn't really fit that's the only thing i'm like i don't think hulk cares about a trophy or dr like trophy you wrong you know up the up the ante here and a plastic twippy you don't need that um so i don't know uh i'll have to see that's how that's implemented but 32 possible trophies that's neat i do like that You're going to get 32 possible trophies, and I love that they've expanded it outside of just your mode, so you have to ask. Yeah, I like that. Like the skill shots and such.
    29:47
    And then if you get 24 of those 32, Raymond Davidson said that you can reach the Mega Trophy Wizard mode. Why not have to get all of them? I don't know. Maybe there's something else there. Maybe getting some omits the ability to get others. I don't know. Oh, yeah, that's a good point, too. Well, like if Elwin sticks in five skill shots, it might not be feasible to get all five. I got three balls. 24 sounds like a lot, though. Hmm. Yeah, it sounds like a pin. Ooh, jackpot.
    30:17
    Beep, beep, beep, beep. You cannot cycle the bottom iron in lanes. Have we seen that? We haven't seen that in a while. It has been a while. Well, you can, you just can't cycle them with the flippers. Correct. Thank you. Yes, you cannot cycle them with the flippers like we are accustomed to, and we know spelling iron will get you towards another multiball, but you must spin the Doctor Strange disc to move those in lanes. Spin to win.
    30:47
    I think this is smart. My initial concern when I heard that lighting iron was what activated Iron Man multiball is that was going to be way too easy. Absolutely. Because so many of these ramp shots feed above the switch in the in lane. I couldn't have said it better. Yes. I mean, I'm a big supporter of having a relatively easy multiball, low-value one, accessible on any game because I think it helps attract people, casual people. But that's too easy. I always avoid them, like Little Deadpool.
    31:20
    Yeah. If I get into Little Deadpool without a mode, I just want to turn off the game. Yeah. It's the same with Vengeance, Multiball, and Star Trek. Honestly, I don't even like doing Klingon Multi-Ball without a mode, but with Vengeance I just feel like now I'm going to sit here for 30 seconds wasting my time for two points In this game you can also move around gyms and designate them to certain shots Uh-oh You've got some Star Wars It feels a little choose your multiplier-y to me That's right If I take Hulk to D2 Can I light three of them at once? Hulk 2D2. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.
    32:05
    Oh, that was good. I like it. I don't know. I don't know if I like this. I don't know. But maybe I'll love it. I do if Hulk 2D2 is now in the cut. Hulk 2D2 is just solid. Hulk 2D2. I want to see the reaction of the Marvel voice actor when he's told to say that. What the fuck you want me to do? Okay. I'll try it I don't want to mess Why isn't my brain stronger? I don't want to mess with it But To borrow a phrase from Josh Sharp If you don't like it Just ignore that part It's not going to make you do it That's what I've done on one of my favorite games ever in Star Wars So I'm fine I just don't know what the consequences of reproductions For not moving them around is Probably losing if you play competitive, but if you don't, I don't know, unless they're key to getting some of those trophies. That's why I love that it was attached to multipliers on Star Wars, because I'm like, I don't care about score. I just want to defeat the Emperor. Did you see that there's a star rollover in this game, just like in You're Walking Dead? No, I did not see that. Wow. I mean, they have an interesting design for those to make them easy to change out. Yeah, it's like a plug-and-play. Yeah, yeah, actually, I really like it. Star War rollovers can get really frustrating. You remember TNA ended up losing its Star rollovers when Spooky went into production with it. Oh, I forgot about that. Those little white dots in the upper section on TNA are supposed to have been Star rollovers. And instead it switched so that the side slings are the active rubbers. It got gummed up really bad. Well, I'm guessing that might have been the issue. I mean, I have to be careful even with Walking Dead because if I wax it you're not careful and you fill that Star rollover with wax. You've got to get your toothpick out. Absolutely. Yeah, so the star rollover on this game, I think, is responsible or attributable to the standard skill shot. So you've got to kind of plunge it, soft plunge it, to get it up in those pops rather than going up the ramp. Raymond Davidson described it as the secret passage shot on the shadow. But for the life of me, I didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Because I'm a huge shadow fan. I've owned one for years, and I don't know what that is. yeah I don't know so Ray Day reach out let me know what you mean by the shadow secret passage I don't think you can go through the exit of shadow I don't know the animation if we're thinking about the animation a lot of people have been talking about that because it's a bit different than the 3D renderings that we've received on the last couple games I tend to like it it gave me whenever I've seen it in real life here it gave me a very Capcom versus Marvel arcade game feel to it even the colors the composition of where the fighters were. It felt like a fighter-based kind of thing, sounds. It's been so long since I've played that, I don't remember. What did you think about the animation? I didn't think much about them, one way or the other. Solid? Yeah, I liked them. I've liked what Stern's done lately. I know you've been a little more picky regarding the 3D stuff, but I've been satisfied pretty much since Iron Maiden. We also had Rick Nagel in chat saying that the topper for Avengers will unlock, quote, a special game mode. Don't think that's surprising. People love that. No, they don't. They're already picketing outside of Elk Grove Village. I'm amazed they're not picketing outside your house. Leave modes out of toppers. Modes out of toppers. That's right. DLC, it's just what we all wanted. Do you think people would be better with a $600 topper without the extra mode?
    35:48
    The topper buyer? No. The topper non-buyer, yes. Because they feel like their game software is incomplete if they don't have the topper. Now, that's who this will wear on are people who feel they have to have 100% of all the software. And it's almost like an OCD thing. They're going to really struggle with being able to accept they can't get a hold of the topper. So a lot of them will try and buy it. And they can't buy it, even if they're okay with the dollar price. It'll diminish the game in their eyes. Yeah. What about the stream overall? I was listening to Travis Murry. He's on a pinball podcast is the name of his podcast. It's a video cast and can be found on Marveloco, which is his YouTube. I would say go over there, subscribe, follow that. He's an up-and-comer, and he's been doing a lot of work and really, really good, enjoyable, entertaining, informative work over there on Marveloco and a pinball podcast. But he brought up some mixed reactions to the stream itself and how Stern Pinball has been presenting new products to the public. Thoughts? Well, in this case, it would be – it's too hard for me to say because I only caught maybe three to five minutes of the stream about an hour in, and then I caught another maybe five minutes about 90 minutes in. So I just didn't see enough to be – my biggest issue when I came in, and again, I came in so late, was I – I had no idea what was going on, like with the rules or anything. And I just chalked that up to, I came into the stream way late. I heard after the fact that they didn't do the, the, what like Dwight often does is a rules walkthrough at the start, which I actually really like, but I just assumed I came in so late. I missed it, but I heard they didn't do that. So they didn't, I think they were trying to do away from that because they got complaints last time when, well, I bet you they got complaints the other way this time of, I don't know what's happening, but I don't know if you can win on that. I mean, the way I would do it would be – I think you can, Wynn. Before you have the live stream, you should have a rules breakdown as a standalone non-live video that people can look at. That you could probably just air at some point during that live video. Sure. I mean, but you pre-shoot it so people who want to really just jump right in have the opportunity on their own even just to explore what the rules do without having to try and sift through the live stream, like the thought of it. Here's where I'm at with it. Keith Elwin is the greatest pinball player of all time. Raymond Davidson is the number one pinball player in the world. These individuals both worked on this game, and they both work at Stern Pinball. What they were doing, going alternating back and forth, one playing, one commentating, one playing, one commentating, that worked very well. That worked really, really well because you got some of the rules, but you also were seeing the gameplay at the same time, and you weren't bombarded with just rules only. You didn't care about rules. You didn't have to listen. You just watched gameplay and vice versa. But these streams and these reveals, to me, are just not winning any awards. I don't think Sundance is going to ask them to enter them in. They are a bit messy and they're a bit confusing. And to a lot of people. I'm not the only one out there. I've been saying it for a while, but people thought I was just, you know, whether it's sour grapes or whatever it may be. But it's nice to see other people are seeing this as well. Other things that worked for me, like the developers answering questions in the chat, that worked great. Some of the information I have here for you listeners today was from Rick Nagel in chat. This whole Skype thing where they were trying to have some of the developers on Skype, but they never kicked it over to them. They never talked to them. They just sat there doing a crossword puzzle. It doesn't look good.
    39:40
    I'm frustrated at times, if I'm being honest. I'm just frustrated with this is Disney. This is Marvel. This is really big. Maybe I'm frustrated because I'm a dealer and I'm trying to sell these things. Do you think that the stream doesn't really help try and sell them? I know this, and I can't say it's a fact because it's still an opinion, but I don't know who would argue it. at the reveal of that promo video and the orders that we were receiving, I don't think the hype could have been any higher on this game.
    40:12
    Following the stream, some people were left confused and questioning their decision. The stream ran for two and a half hours. I tuned out after a game. I'm banned from that channel, so I can't chat with any of the customers or any of the hobbyists. I can't do anything. I'm just there with my arms tied behind my back. But two and a half hours. It's oversaturation. It's confusion. We get the best players in the world playing these things. I just don't get the live stream aspect. I don't understand the benefit of it. Well, I mean, it does allow the chat to ask questions, I suppose. You can do that prerecorded and have it aired live. Oh, yeah. Okay. I see what you're saying. You know what I mean? Yeah. Too much can go wrong. We're testing out camera equipment and microphones. It's just not a good look. This is Marvel and Disney.
    41:06
    I don't know. Maybe just me. But show one game, a really nice game, showing the mechanism, showing the code, the sounds, the call-outs, the video. Have a little interview with some of the developers during that time or cut to a prerecorded video showing that stuff. Keep the motivation to purchase and to play high. And then leave them wanting more. after two and a half hours, there's a lot of people that don't feel like they have to have more until they see it next time at a location. Sure. But I mean, it's their decision to sit in there for two and a half hours too. I mean, sure. No one makes you. I sure didn't. And they can go back and watch the bot. Yes. Yeah. If you tune in during that, instead of saying, Hey, I want to start the YouTube video. That's all controlled. It's all organized. Yeah. I mean, I don't disagree. I personally prefer the pre-produced videos because they're easier to follow. Because to me, live stream is an entertainment thing. It's almost like a throwaway thing where it's all about being in the moment. But I don't think that that necessarily lends itself as the best way to present a product, which is why most things like commercials aren't done live for a reason. That's exactly right. Anytime this stuff happens, I'm waiting for something to break and getting five calls from people saying, yeah, I'm out. This thing is selling well. It looks really fun. It looks really deep. But it also looks approachable to me. It's got a lot of mechanisms in it. Yeah, I wanted to think I heard something like the goal is a rule set that's more complicated than Iron Maiden but less complicated than Jurassic Park. I don't remember. I heard that on a podcast. It might have been Loser Kid or something. That would be interesting if that's true. And I think that would be perfectly fine. It has more going on, it seems, than Elwynn's other games.
    43:00
    It's hard for me to say. I thought there was obviously depth to all of them. I was on Jurassic Park. I thought with the choices and pathing was pretty sophisticated as a rule set. And I would say more so than Iron Maiden, which I thought was much more straightforward. I was getting lost at times, but that just made me excited to be able to get home, play it, and find my own path. at the end of the day, maybe I'm just a big fan. Fan. Get it? I do It still not a fan layout Though I will say looking back at the photo the Doctor Strange disc is far enough back that I wouldn say it too far forward as a device to disqualify. But the multi-flicker still kills it as a fan layout. I think I might win this one, too. It's like the upside-down bowl thing.
    43:52
    The only way you'd win it is if there was someone who didn't know what the specifically already defined from decades ago... Don't push the jury. Let them think for themselves. you don't get to have an opinion on it flat out is disqualified by its features, Zach it's flat out disqualified, it's not subjective every shot the ball travels straight up through a fan format every shot is accessible on all pinball machines arguably except Champion Pub so you could try and argue off of that all pinball machines, modern pinball machines are that way. No. I'm sorry. Not with an upper flipper. You just can't do it. After this week's poll, you'll be really sorry. We're not doing this one. We don't do polls. Does Facebook even allow polls anymore? They've changed everything and I can't find stuff. Just an email. Elvira Topper? Oh, you want to talk about toppers? I'm good with that. Well, it's news, so we probably should. Why can't you bring that up? A little bit more information about the Elvira Topper. We use news in quotes. That's right. I heard this Elvira topper is a fan layout as well, the way it's set up on the top. And you probably go into some more minute detail about why you think it is. I don't want to hear it. I was sent or I seen on Facebook something where there was a menu option for Elvira's House of Whores. And on that menu option, it said topper attract mode scream or scream mode. They're going to reuse the Ghostbusters scream. I never thought they would. That was so mean. That screaming Ghostbusters was – like people get mad when that happens. Yeah, I know. And that's – it amuses me. So they should do it here too. It amuses me as well. Just the sheer – because you could turn it off and people didn't think you could because they don't look up stuff.
    45:45
    There's so much information in these – in the menu system and the adjustments. That's fair. That's a fair point. I probably don't know half the stuff in my Star Trek and Walking Dead. Well, I mean, those are old games. I'm also meaning like they let so much stuff slip, like the Technodrome eyeball topper. Yeah, I mean, it's not like it was the biggest spoiler in the world. Well, it told us that there was a Technodrome up there. It told us there was an eye up there. Well, was it going to be Raphael's eye moving around? I mean, if you weren't really familiar with Turtles, you'd probably be like, I don't know what that means. Maybe we can hook our Logitech webcams to it. That's not a bad idea. It would be like dialed in. Hey, do you think they should re-theme dialed in to the smoke dial? Oh, I was like anything else. You dialed in and there's just like dial soap everywhere.
    46:39
    So Topper is going to scream Ghostbusters style and then – There's some pics floating around that that center section might lift up. I was seeing a picture it was lifting up and there was like a static decal of Elvira in the shocked position like her face yes I saw similar and I mostly saw disappointment because people were trying to convince themselves that there would be an LCD screen underneath that lift and when I saw it's a sticker nope I think you could probably get an LCD screen given the size I would think you could like fit it but that was such a layup I was laying you up to say, with a thousand dollars, you should be able to get all kinds of screens. No, because if you I mean, sure, you could you could fit it within the within the bill of materials and still make a profit. No, no, no doubt. But like, I don't know if the armature is going to have the strength to lift whatever weight the screen is versus a sticker.
    47:38
    When you said that, if the armature is strong enough, I pictured the gatekeeper on Scary Movie 2 with his little hand. Okay You remembered his name I just take this turkey and I just Stuff it with the penises and the vaginas You know a lot of people Are kind of intimidated About Making a turkey but Really it's very simple you just have to know The anatomy of a turkey and it's got Over here just the tiniest little Stink hole but it's big enough to get Your hand right up inside it stuff the shit out of them. I cook it with all the giblets, the penises and the ginies. Yeah, I've seen that too. Oh, God, that movie is so bad. And I'll just stick it right there.
    48:29
    Hiawatha! And now a lot of people like to baste their turkeys, but I use this. I lick like that and get into the little hiney-hiney hole.
    48:42
    That's nice and good. I don't know what the hell that is, but I lick it anyway. Up and down. Then I like to dip that right on there.
    48:53
    I just up in there with the giblets. I love that movie. You would. In for Fanny. All right. Yeah, so I want a scary movie too, Pimple. No. Maybe that's Spooky's next pen. Come on, Spooky. oh man okay so you're buying that topper even though you don't have elvira check okay deep root pinball yeah deep root what about their toppers they've been i don't know if they'll have toppers i need to talk to bobby pinball see what he's got in store but deeper pinball has been teasing us adding to this cryptic message we finally seen the whole thing it is 9 21 20 basically so we're releasing or seeing something on the 21st of september and the bd was was It's for before Deep Root. So all else changes, I suppose, in the pinball industry history on the 21st of September. Yeah. Remember, remember the 21st of September. Where were you when Ned busted through? Yeah. The Ned Buster plot. Is this working? Is this hype type of marketing working? I'm seeing people talk about it on forums, on Facebook. So, yeah, it's generating conversation. Do you think it's generating conversation because it is just so in your face and strong?
    50:16
    I think it's just – I mean they didn't really have a social media presence up until a month ago or so. And so we weren't getting really anything from Deep Root other than the occasional interview would come out. So I think that in the void, in the void of Deep Root knowledge, they're now providing something, and that of course is resulting in discussion. Now, a lot of that discussion is frustration that not more is being shown, but everyone has their own take on that. Well, TPN correspondent Chris Chandler should be going there soon and taking a look for us. Yes, yes. So that will be exciting. I guess he'll be going there on the 21st. Maybe that's not live. I don't know. What did kind of surprise me is that Bobby Pinball and the gang over at Deeper is still taking swings at people. No product yet, but they are taking swings. Did you see, Dennis, on social media a couple days ago a statement that Deep Root made regarding a statement that someone from Stern Pinball made? Yeah, it was a thank you statement. It was so sweet. It says, quote, we want to personally thank Jody Dankberg, Stern's director of marketing and licensing, for this wake-up call back in 2016. And then it refers to the quote by Jody Dankberg that said, there are others trying to make pinball machines. I think it would be fantastic if someone else came along and was really successful at it, because that would make an industry. I want someone to be successful, as we probably do. 99.9% of the games shipped. That's not an industry. It's a monopoly. Deep Root, they posted that quote from Jody Dankberg from Stern Pinball and said, challenge accepted. just a few days left in the pinball world before deep root no issue with no no issue with him using the lord and savior jesus christ as an example here of what's to come in pinball am i reaching there oh but do you think doing bd is tacky i'm not saying tacky i'm saying maybe something else?
    52:30
    I mean, I was fine with it. I think, to me, it's a question of, is this, whatever innovation, whatever new features, all these mysteries that have yet to be revealed from Deep Root, can it possibly live up to the hype? Is this sort of stuff... He's comparing it to Christ walking on water, Dennis! No, he doesn't say that. He didn't say anything about walking on water. Come on. And that's hyperbole. Besides, now it's just before Common Era anyway. Maybe I'm a little bit too far out there. It's just, I can't think of an example that can be any bolder. Oh, I think it could be bolder, but I can't think of any other pinball company that has been this bold. Though it's not new ground to basically take the 800-pound gorilla that is Stern Pinball and then try and be spicy about that. I mean, lest we forget how when they revealed the Big Lebowski, Dutch Pinball was at a pinball show shitting all over Stern. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's see how that turned out. Yeah, well, I mean, see, and that's the thing.
    53:39
    That's the one end of the spectrum. And then, honestly, I don't know if we have another end of the spectrum. The closest would probably be JJP in terms of popularity of their games and sales that they have. But again, as a volume distributor, Jersey Jack is very – I mean it's not 99.9% like Jody said in 2016, in 2020. But I mean what's Stern's market share? I'm going to guess around 80%. I would guess higher. It's just – yeah, I'm trying to be conservative. But so it's like there really aren't competitors in the truth. That's still true. But what Deep Root would need to be able to actually take even just 10% of the market share from Stern? I just – until I see what they've got, I, in my simplistic thinking, cannot envision what it is that's going to be that hype. When we know that the first product is a single product and it's not licensed. And given the prototype that I saw of Raza, acknowledging that I have not seen it in its non-prototype state. Agree. If it was the prototype, it would not do it. it won't it's not a strong enough game i think some of this marketing does work because i'm intrigued but i worry about the fallout when there's probably a 0.5 chance it will come close to the hyperbole that's been presented over the last couple years i mean i'm not worried about the fallout in the sense that i mean people will if it doesn't work out like if this like people aren't impressed by the innovations they'll they'll be those that will remember the statement and they'll joke about it and go, ha, ha, ha, remember when we grew up? That's what I mean by the fallout, yeah. Well, no, fallout means like the real repercussions. People laughing about your boast is not really much of a repercussion. If people aren't buying products because of it, it is. I don't think people are going to make their purchasing decision based off of what they posted regarding Jody Dankberg's quote. Yes. I don't think it affects a single sale, in fact, one way or the other. Correct. I don't. There have been others that now the prior, all the prior boasting may have pushed some people away. But at this point, this is like that. Those little sprinkles you put on top of the donut, they're colorful, but they have no taste. But sales are affected both positively and negative by a pulse of a community. People don't buy games if they know that it's not the end thing. That happens all the time. I see it every title that's released. Sure. I can almost pinpoint. I don't think that comes down in DeepRoot's case to the marketing. It's a common refrain online. They're reaching their put-up-or-shut-up moment.
    56:24
    And there was a lot of initial hype for DeepRoot that unfortunately for the company has bled away over these continued very large delays. But we've seen other companies face really large delays on releasing games, Jersey Jack being a case in point, that have been able to recover from that, though it is always remembered as being, gosh, do you remember waiting for Woz? Do you remember waiting for Hobbit? I mean, those are still jokes. Do you think we see the next Jersey Jack game before or after Deep Root? See what it did there before Deep Root? Yeah, yeah. I'm going to – that was clever. And I'm going to say, I think before, I still think surely Jersey Jack's revealing this month. And the 21st is fairly late in the month, so, well, it was. But here we are, middle of the month now, and so maybe not. I thought we'd get more teasers before. That's what worries me. I think after, but I don't know. You know, I mean, I'm starting to – I think – I'm still going to say before. I think Jersey Jack would be smart to let deeper because I wouldn't want to announce a game with there being so much mystery around something. I'd say, you know what, guys? Here's the red carpet. Go ahead. Take a shot. Then when you're done, people can see Avengers. They can see Raza. And then they can hear and see something totally different.
    57:50
    Except, all right, let's say you're right. And that's the logic behind it, that they wait until the 21st. Deep Root reveals. Deep Root stuff is totally amazing. It's completely revolutionary. It lives up to all of the hype. So what's Jersey Jack's next step? To sit on their game for another four to six months? No, I just think that they have the confidence of the product that they have. And I think that the lack of experience, consistency, and following deadlines and what they've seen with Deep Root, they're probably just not worried.
    58:24
    So given that, and I agree with you on that, but given that, why would they even factor it in? We tried Dialed In. It was a great game. It didn't sell. So they know where the hell they want with Raza. I don't even think they're thinking about it. I agree that I don't think Jersey Jack really considers the Deep Root review. So I don't think it affects their date pick. I don't think they view them as a competitor at this time. Correct. So I'm going to, yeah, I'm going to, I guess, well, as double down as I can double down and say, yeah, no, I think Jersey Jack reveals this week.
    58:57
    It's the only, the 21st is the start of the following week. It's got to be the 14th through the 18th or else I'm wrong. So, no, I think it's this week. I think they're ready. Unless they hit delays. Who knows? Oh, watch me be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. But I'm going to say, yeah, I think it's time. I think it's time to reveal this week, midweek, mid-month, I should say. Speaking of delays, what about cancellations? Of what? Purchases? One of my favorite things every year is the Chicago Pinball Expo. You know this, Dennis. I didn't know it was one of your favorites. I've never been myself. It might be my favorite, actually. Hmm. Interesting. Well, this was inevitable. This was inevitable. It's canceled, but it is going virtual. I don't know why I bother. I kind of agree with you. I mean, maybe they've got something in mind. that makes sense. I just don't really see the point. It's not going to have any of the magic. That was tough. That sucks. I thought I was finally going to get my D-Creezy up in Chicago. I wouldn't have been able to go this year because I had a counter-conference the same days. Which has also been cancelled now. Bean counting? No, no. Governmental conference.
    60:10
    After government? Or before government? Jesus. Yeah, that's what he was talking about. Jesus. Let it go. No one cares. And before we go into the darling love child that is pinball market trends, we've got something really cool, Dennis, an interview that our own Dr. John conducted with David Van S., the next designer at Spooky Pinball. Let's give it a listen.
    60:38
    Hi there on this week's SHIT update, mainly focusing on Spooky this week, as I announced last week David Van Es is doing the design for the next spooky game so I thought I'd have a chat to him and ask him some questions and see what info we can get out and give you all a bit of background into David's mind this is what he had to say so what are you up to at the moment David down there in Texas I am looking at lots and lots of different little spinny things and holes and stuff like that so david you've been granted the power to design spooky's next game what how did you stumble into game design how did i stumble into game design uh by playing lots of games like every person out there they've always doodled something on a piece of paper or you know have sketched something up and um it's just one of those things of i worked with a bunch of different artists that have also worked with spooky and we were just tossing ideas around and we committed one to a concept design charlie happened to actually see it and it was like wow that actually could be really really good and really fun and i was like really okay so and that's literally how it happened he saw it he liked what he saw and now the team has their a monumental task to bring something to life. So, yeah, just from experience of playing, gave you some ideas in your mind on what you would like to see on a game. Is that what I'm hearing? Absolutely. I mean, again, John, I'm sure yourself, you've looked at a game and said, oh, I wish this shot could do this, or I wish that shot could do this. And I've learned that that is not necessarily the case because once you put it into practice, it doesn't work. and you go back and you have to redo it and then you just you just expand on top of that like okay what if we got because i'm obviously involved in the licensing side of things you get to see what potentially is out there so therefore you start thinking about well what if i had this license and i could do this with this license i can do this shot or i could do something with the bowl the right combination and the opportunity opened up for a slot at spooky and that yeah spooky sorry and goes hey this is a great opportunity david why don't you take it and i'm like why not that'll be fun and here i am uh looking over the uh the files now i'm like how did i why why am i here what why am i doing this so you've gone theme first and then adapted a design to it i know there are designers that will come up with a concept for a white wood and a game design that is a hundred percent correct it's what we had access to what are the possibilities and it was one of those situations and honestly the germination of this idea actually came from a coding weekend on alice cooper before we showed it and we're all up at spooky a big group of us and we're just sitting there we're crunching everything working on the fly just what about if we do this what about if we do that on alice cooper let you know can we do this and try this and try that and it was we've already worked for the day we're into the evening we just started throwing out like worst theme ideas for pinball machines and we were doing that and then like someone brought someone up and all of a sudden the realization of like you know what that actually wouldn't be bad and i'm not saying it's that title but it was like it was the start of the concept so so you're a napkin sort of guy or a cad designer i'm definitely not a cad designer my background is in film and television um and mainly post-production so i'm familiar with um softwares like photoshop illustrator having to learn fusion and stuff like that so it's all a learning process for me so i'm adapting what i know works and then trying to translate that into pinball which i will tell you right now doesn't always work but that's for me to learn so i haven't done the virtual pin route and i'm with you know the way charlie and spooky do is they do the traditional way where we make whitewoods so we are on uh two and a half whitewoods on this title so yeah we just basically keep revising and revising and it's really plain to see once you You laid it all out and you see it, you think it's all great and then once you make that white wood then you start seeing the real holes and you address that So it just a constant change up So you could design anything and anything can work but having said that the question is is it going to do well in a production run and at the end of the day i what i do on this game i also want to as much as i want to please people the pinball players and the pinball buyers um i also want to please the guys on the on the line i don't want a game where they're literally like you seriously are gonna have to adjust this you know 500 times that's not kosher that's not good at all so i you know everything i'm doing on this game is in thought of how do i successfully communicate the game itself how do i integrate the theme into the game and how do i make the people on the lines life easier you gotta stick with a budget as well so that's you want all four but the question is can you get them all to fit so in looking at your uh favorite games what shots and i don't know whether they're going to be in your game or not do you really enjoy in pinball that you think i want that in my game i love flow in my games i like being able to do combos but i also like stop and go i like pat lowers um games like twilight zone, Talos from the Crypts. I like where you stop, do a mode, and you do something. But I like flow, so it's kind of an oxymoron in a way, isn't it? I like flow, but I also like to be able to stop. So for me, it's taking things that I enjoy, that I feel good when I shoot, and trying to get that into my game. And I'm, you know, there's one shot of my game that I'm trying to get right, and it's just not, it's getting closer. There will be another version of the game uh shortly that i'll be playing and hopefully i've addressed it but there's just one shot that just does not quite feel right yet but when you're trying to jam so much thing into a game it's hard you know you got to figure out is it worth keeping or do you get rid of it so tell the uh listeners your three favorite games that you like like to shoot or you like the rules or that you will always your go-to games creature from black lagoon i've always got to play that and a because it's a combination of horror drive-ins and simplicity in game rules it's hard to believe that creature from black lagoon is only a two ball multi-ball game it's just like it's just a two ball multi-ball game but you feel so once you get those two balls you feel like everything's happening at once right it that game tickles my funny bone uh indiana jones i just love the combinations on the ramps on that just like back and forth back and forth and then hitting the captured ball in the back, although that scoop shot just drives everyone nuts. But locking the balls in and you hear it as the idle spins and stuff like that, I think it's one of the greatest moments in pinball. And Elvira, mainly because I kind of wrote it off. I guess it didn't look like it was much, but the integration of that theme, it just makes me keep wanting to play it. So that's it. wise words from a wise Australian, David Van Ness, otherwise known as Bunyip, who will be designing the next spooky game. I hope you got some hints and clues from him on what sort of game it will be. But he's pretty secretive about the theme and we look forward to hearing more. I'll continue to delve into the spooky world and see what I can drag out of them. Catch you all next week.
    68:55
    Enough of the news. People come here for one main reason. To hear the end of the show. No! Maybe it's for Din Din. To hear the beginning of the show. Maybe it's for... No, it's not. It's not for singing.
    69:13
    Din Din got the loops. He got the loops. I'm playing layout, yeah. Bimbo! Market Trance! I think your voice cracked there. Welcome to manhood. I feel bad because Nicole is legit helping a customer in the other room.
    69:37
    Do they know you do this? Maybe they'll be like, yeah, he's doing the thing. He's doing the thing. I highly doubt that. They're picking him up a Metallica. A pro or a premium? A pro. My poor wife probably looked at him and was like, no, I'm divorcing him. Don't worry. It was a good 14 years. that's right turning up this week is Indiana Jones the pinball adventure by Williams back in 1993 yeah that's a popular one yeah a wide body yeah is that a fan layout the most popular super pin listen here listeners is it a fan layout Dennis I don't remember it very well I don't think so doesn't it have that whole weird path of the dead kind of thing yeah but that's more right ramp accessible so it's more like an accessory yeah but it's not just the flippers we have to factor in the layout too is the thing I don't think so because the ball lock is so close to the lower flippers anyway very disruptive I don't remember how many flippers is on the thing you cheat Dr. Creasel it's overpriced it's been trending up too much yeah just where the plane and the drops for the ball lock is you can have a thing like that. I mean, just like the castle or the saucer in Medieval Menace, but they need to be towards the back. And I just think that's too close to the middle to qualify.
    71:04
    It's close. Yeah. I would say it's fan-ish. Fan-ish. And that's something I say with Stern Star Trek. It's not fan layout because of the warp ramp and the third flipper for that, but it's still fan-ish. Very reminiscent of the fan layout. Yeah, Avengers isn't fan-ish. It is fan-y. Make room for fan-y. I knew you were tying that back. It's a scary movie. Two. Excuse me. Holly won a piece of your mama's sweet ass. Turning up this week is Indiana Jones because the damn thing just keeps on going up on the secondary market. I remember... I saw someone who said he has three of them now, and he wanted to know who won in one of them. Oh, Scotty. I saw that. Yeah. Good to see that. Yeah, back in the day. Back in my day, five years ago when I was entering this hobby, I won for $6,000, $7,000. I thought you entered this hobby like two weeks ago. Stop. Well, your knowledge sort of suggests that. I'll be training that person down here in a little bit. Oh, it's so expensive now. It's already expensive. On the secondary market, $8,500 to $9,000 for a nice conditioned Indiana Jones with no playfield wear because it is susceptible and prone to that. If you guys are buying an Indiana Jones, look for balls swirling around the slings in the yellow area, which is, you see that a lot. Also look for inserts lifting. They've got a lot of inserts down mid-playfield that, over time, have been prone to lift up. Cabinets are very much always faded.
    72:32
    So if it is really bright, make sure it's not an aftermarket decal that was applied poorly or it is not a good representation of what the original is. A lot of things to look at on Indiana Jones. Yeah, I'd just buy a new inbox for less and just not mess with this. Do you think they'll ever redo Indiana Jones remake? The only thing that makes me think no, so my answer is no, but the reason isn't that I don't think it would sell. I'm not sure CGC wants to tool up to do a wide. Oh, yeah.
    73:02
    Plus, you know, they're planning to get into doing their own original pins. They're going to have to at some point, though, because they have some key wide bodies. Yeah, but again, if they're successful in actually launching original games, they might get out of the remake business entirely. Yeah, absolutely. I wouldn't be shocked by it. Unfortunately, turning down this week is another wide-body super pin. This one is with Red and Ted. That is not unfortunate. That game is awful.
    73:29
    Turning down is Roadshow Williams 1994. Secondary market is dropping to about $3,400 to $3,700. Yeah, don't buy this unless it's under $300. Don't listen to Dennis. This is a good game. It's better than Popeye, but it's not good. It is not. There are some moments in this game. I like this game better than Judge Dredd. I do as well. Was Judge Dredd awful too? Yes, he is. Popeye awful too? I think you're a whitest. That's what I think you are. You take offense to white bodies. Oh, do I? Yeah, a whitest. Typical whitest attitude here. Are you a super pinnish?
    74:11
    That's a subset of being a whitest. I'm just starting to help the listener know what is and is not a good game as I said that I kind of felt like it was bad a whitest sounds bad all's turning down this week is just pinball streaming live reveals in general you know why you heard me already talk about it but refer back to MarvLoco's YouTube if you want to find it for yourself hell turning up is MarvLoco I still need to watch that one I haven't seen it yet Yeah, I would be interested in you messaging me or calling me preferably, but you don't ever want to talk to me. But calling me or messaging me after you watch it. I talk to you every week, Zach. Yeah. I feel like it's almost like a court-ordered custody thing. It's like child support. Yeah. You're like the inconsistent dad that comes around. I'm like, hey, dad, want to chuck the ball around? And you're like, well, it is every other fucking weekend, isn't it, Zach? Go eat your mitt. No, you'd be like Homelander from The Boys, and you'd be like, no, you've got to jump off the roof, son. I'm going to watch that. Yeah, it's dark. It might be too dark for you. You might need to stick with your Tiger King.
    75:21
    Why do... Tiger King's pretty dark. I'm trying to weigh the new Netflix series with Hilary Swank, Space-Based, going to Mars, away. Also turning down this week is... Warning. Rant. turning down is being shamed or talked out of a current new pinball machine you're excited about you're wanting to buy it but you're talked out of it certain media members if you just continue waiting for every single new title like some people suggest for the last four years every new title comes out i'd wait just wait i just love wait next big thing is coming then you're going to be playing nothing at home. I could go buy some used games. They'd tell you to wait on that too. Wait for the next used one. Or maybe you're just trying to convince yourself that you need to sell your Rick and Morty pinball machine after 50 plays so that you can go back to no machine at home and continue shitting on people for buying games, reducing your hypocrisy scale by about 15%. Either way.
    76:24
    I get the impression you're not talking about me because I don't have Rick and Morty. Get rid of that Rick and Morty. That was a close one. I almost owned a pen I couldn't shit on. Make fun of people for owning it. Yeah, training demos, then. Quote, I'm the spokesperson for collectors, end quote. No, no, no, you certainly are not that. Maybe the spokesperson for the Cuisinart Classic Waffle Maker.
    76:51
    See the reference there, Dennis Waffle? Waffle ran a lot. Oh, I was confused. I just thought maybe you were hating on waffles. Greatest game ever. 90% of market share Stern is the best That was turning a page in the calendar Oh I thought it was you flipping a waffle They're defeated Worst game ever Did you see it on the stream It's horrible It's all about deep root I mean Jersey Jack pinball is the way to go I'm in for collectors I flipped a machine didn't have assets.
    77:33
    I'll get out of this section. Now there are times, Dennis, where we will have our Dick of the Week. This time, we're not. Yeah, this individual getting an award from myself has received a Dick of the Week award. So congratulations on that. But this week, he's getting a totally different award. And that is the Pinball Show's Rockstar of the Week. That's a Guns N' Roses reference. I was trying to figure out what the opposite of Dick of the Week would be.
    78:05
    What would that be? Well, it depends. I was thinking Hero of the Week, but I'm like... Like literal? Asshole of the Week.
    78:12
    It's on the other side. Oh, you meant like positive rather than negative. Oh, okay. Thanks, because I pictured a puckered up low. I'm a helper. Oh, let's just stick with Rockstar of the Week. It goes to Delt 31. Yes. I'm not a fan, but I am now. Him and Timlaw79 on Pinside have created one of the coolest things that I've seen the entire pinball year of 2020. A new topper? Not a new topper. That might have done it. This is a mod for Jurassic Park. I told you guys weeks back that Dell was working on a video code to put actual moments from the film in there, and they've completed it. For my game at 1.02 Jurassic Park, they've completed it, and now it includes all of the wonder and the glory of Jurassic Park movie. All of the call-outs. Visually, all of the movie moments. them kicking the raptor back down out of the duck work t-rex eating the goat that's right you name it it's in there even the intro when you press start we don't have that 3d rendering of a helicopter going to isle nublar we have the actual one we have the gray-haired man that i'm missing his name right now with his cane and he says welcome to jurassic park we've got all of it it's there and it is one of the coolest things ever it's not to take away from what stern did it sounds like you kind of took away from different strokes for different folks but you guys know i love assets and this is exactly what i needed i cannot praise dealt 31 and tim was 79 enough for doing this and if i'm stern i'm okay with it because i don't have to pay for it such a phenomenal job with that. You've got to go and download it yourself and put it on. Now, it is only for the premium LE. Not the pro. Fancy pants win again. Not the pro. So good. Maybe I'll throw up some video of that. Nicely done, Delt31. You're still a dick, but nicely, nicely done. Man, you're good. Let's not leave this little segment without going by your deals of the week. Bye, bye, bye! deal of the week this week is by one of our friends over in utah loser kid three you know him yes he's selling a lethal weapon three which is a fun game and it looks like it needs a wipe down needs a shop job but it's fully functional nineteen hundred dollars oboe buy buy buy wow yeah you can't beat that what dmd you're gonna get for under two thousand and one that's actually fun. Oh, well, I can't. I was going to say Shack Attack, but you took that away from me. Oh, one that's actually fun. This is a good game. So if you guys know of anyone that's getting into pinball, I think this would be, and they don't want to spend too much money and they're okay with piddling on power supplies and stuff, because that will go out. I think this is the right type of game to point them in the direction of. They can learn how to shop a game and Data East, inevitably, you're going to have to tinker with, especially those trough switches. Yeah, but most of it's not too difficult, I do feel. I started on a dad at East Jurassic Park, and it helped me a lot with my future pins. So I think this is the deal of the week. It's a good one. 1900 Oboe. Yeah, take it for, I don't know, $1,650 cash. Buy, buy, buy! I don't know if he'll go that low. Sorry, Roup Dad is. Also another deal of the week this week is an Iron Man tilt topper for sale. It's like new. The guy sold the game, Waldo34, out of Lake Villa, Illinois. I wonder if they go with Villa or if they go with the Spanish Villa.
    82:15
    I guess you'll have to ask. Waldo34 is selling it. And Iron Man, there is no, to my knowledge, there's no OEM stern topper. So you're going to have to go with the next best. And the next best is this one. There's some 3D molding on it. There's a big light up where his Infinity Stone chest thing goes. There's tubes. It looks really cool and at $175. dollars. Bye-bye-bye! You do know that his power supply reactor is not an Infinity Stone, right? At any point, is it an Infinity Stone shoved in there? No. Really? Nope. It's his creation that he made to save his own life. It's a miniaturized arc reactor, if I remember. Okay. I initially remember that, but I thought one of the stones ended up in there at some point. Well, you know, Vision was powered by the stone in his head. Maybe that's something. He has a little forehead. He's like Robo. Robotech.
    83:07
    I'm still sad about him. Robotech is back now. That's my min-may impression. I don't... The listeners know, and they appreciate that.
    83:17
    Yeah, but regardless, Dennis, you might be right there. But it's a nice-looking topper. I will accept that as an aftermarket topper. That's a good-looking one. $175. Throw that thing on your Iron Man today. And that was your Rockstars of the Week on the Pinball Show Presents Pinball Market Tricks. podcast watch market watch love you macho in closing we learned a lot today we learned about Stern Pinball's Avengers being a fan layout we learned about Elvira Topper and what it could be for a thousand bucks coming soon we even learned about Deep Root they're coming on the 21st mark your calendars We learned about Chicago Expo not happening this year. We learned about what pins to buy and which pins to stay away from. But most importantly, we learned...
    84:13
    You can't even give me a no, no, no, no, no. Nothing. No, no, no, no, no, no. We got so much praise when you didn't sing, and now you're undoing it all. I thought you'd be the female. See you, I'm the male. Where can people find you in between now and next week? You can always reach out to EclecticGamersPodcast.gmail.com. We're on Facebook, Facebook.com slash EclecticGamersPodcast. You can send a message, and I check that pretty regularly. Shout out to Nappy. He made a co-star appearance on your show. Yeah, we had him on as a guest to talk about the Avengers review. He was really good. I think the Super Awesome Pinball Show, either Nap or like a Joe Fox as their third host. Do you think they're going to go with a permanent third? Or do you think maybe they like doing the constant rotation changing third? Don't know. We'll just have to wait and see. Absolutely. If you guys are looking for a video series on YouTube, check out Straight Down the Middle. That's a lot of fun and it's got a lot of cool stuff. I'm telling you now, you will want to subscribe now so that you get notified. Don't know. It seems like everything's just in an archive now. Ain't no new shows.
    85:30
    If you're ready to buy a brand new pinball machine, you can contact us at FlippinOutPinball. Email us at Zach, Z-A-C-H, at Flipp, the letter N, OutPinball.com, or if you need an escalator, call me. Text me, 812-457-9711. I'd get one if I had stairs. Yeah, that's a good point. I have like a cheap dolly for certain instances, but most of the time I don't. I don't even. If I have another person, just cough and carry that stuff. Oh, I thought you were like the doctor. Turn your head and cough. Cough and carry. Wow. So clever. Is there a lump in there? Do I feel normal? I don't have many people feeling my testicles. All right, for Dennis Creasel, I'm Zach Manning. And remember, if you can have your pinball show be virtual, you can have your pinball be virtual, too. And always practice safe pinball and AF up. You know what that stands for, Dennis?
    86:20
    After fan. It's a hybrid fan. Oh, God. Yeah. è uh la Yeah.