you're listening to the head-to-head people podcast find us on facebook email us at Welcome, everybody, to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 122. My name's Martin, and with me... Not-so-foxy Joe. We've got a Joe appearing later. Another Joe. So, here we are. Enough of us. So this is the Christmas show, everybody. This is our last show of the year until we take a break. And this episode, there's just a couple of things. We're going to talk about Stranger Things. It's been revealed unofficially. Let's just put it out there. Then we're going to bring some special guests on, talk about the year in pinball, and then we're going to go through the competition winners. There are 10 prizes we are giving away. Oh, my God. I know, including pin stadium lights, Attack from Mars alternate trans light, some head-to-head merch, Loser Kid merch, and some gaming codes for the Zen pinball arcade thing as well. So come to us at the end of the podcast, and you'll find out whether you've won. So excited and my fingers are crossed I want to win. So let's talk Stranger Things. So we saw a video that was posted up. I think it's a promo video for the Premium LA Stranger Things. Unofficial, wasn't meant to be released. Now where things don't have started, their official release with a video showing the lights from the first season of, I'm assuming it's only the first season of Stranger Things because I still haven't watched the rest, with the lights flashing saying, coming soon, spelling out coming soon, effectively. But we've watched the video. I had a couple of days before then, I sort of mentioned in one of the interviews, I'd seen a play field shot of Stranger Things. And the first thing that stood out to me was the layout is very similar to Attack from Mars. Not surprising, given that it's Brian Eddy's first game with Stern. What do you think now that you've seen the video, Joe? I'm like you said, the same thing it's like, wow, Attack from Mars 2.0 which, you know I'm a little disappointed about, because it's like now it's like, okay, three out of the four games he's made have been Attack from Mars clones, more or less so I was hoping a little more after two years that maybe we're going to see more of a shadow type game but it's still I mean but on the opposite side that it's just like well I mean there's nothing I'm definitely not one of those people who have any issues with fans or you know rehash playfields with some differences because all that really matters is the code and does it shoot well so I mean on the one hand it's like you're hoping that it's different but on the other hand I really don't care if it is because it's an evergreen so So it's, you know. My original thought when I saw it was, oh, I'm a bit disappointed that it is very much like Attack on Mars and the colours of the play field were really bright. Then when I saw the video and it's set in a much darker setting, you then do get more of the theme of Stranger Things. And then I thought to myself, hmm, I've not loved, if I'm really honest, the remakes of Attack on Mars. I still think, and I played it last night, that the flipper, I still think it just does not feel the same. So I then resolved in my mind, okay, so this is a Brian Eddy, very traditional design, but it's for Stern. So I really like the feel of Stern's flippers and, you know, the mechs and the rubbers and everything they do on a machine. So I kind of thought to myself, I'm actually probably on board with this. I'm not going to buy one because obviously I'm not in the market at the moment, but I'm now resolved to the fact that I actually really quite like it. And then when you look at the tech, particularly what we saw was the premium LE that's got the projector. Now, this projector sits under the apron, projects onto a screen that sits in front of the Demogorgon, which is, I guess, the main bash toy, which the ball can fly into its mouth. Great. It also projects onto targets, and it kind of looks like it's projecting onto the ramps as well. Yep. It kind of looks great. And the spinner. Oh, my God. And the spinner. It looks great. I'm actually really impressed with it. Then you've also got the magnet balls on the back that sort of stick to the backbox and then fall down. Mm. Mm-mm. And then the screen, the main screen in the middle of the playfield then sort of falls down, which then becomes the ramp. I don't know. I'm really impressed with it, I've got to say. Yeah, it's very clever. I mean, like you mentioned, it has animations and lighting effects on the drop targets up the center. It's got numbers on the stand-ups that protect the ramps. It's got what looks like lighting effects on the spinner. It's got also what looks like lighting effects on the ramps and the side of the ramps. And then also the cross ramp, you can see that there's animations or clips there, because I can see that there's a person's, you know, the lighting's too, you can't tell who that is, but there's a, you know, there's a projection of a person's face. So, like, there is a lot of stuff going on with the, with the lights of this. And I think that also, like you mentioned, where you're talking about the colors of the play field, I think that those are more amplified because it's dark. Yeah. So, probably, maybe there is some kind of, I don't know, UV in effect there or something. Yeah. I don't know what you mean. Because the picture that shows the in-lane, out-lane guide plastics looks awesome. With the coloring that they have in there, with the purple and the grading with the lighting. That looks really cool. I mean, really, the only thing that you've got to wonder about with this game is, like, what's it going to look like in a bright setting? Obviously, these effects aren't going to work, I don't think. Obviously, this is a premium. This is the LE. these are meant for the home. So I guess there's really not much they have to answer for there because, you know, I mean, they can just say, like, well, this is meant for your home collection, so you can turn the lights off. So it's not like that's something that they're going to have to worry about. So I think that I'll be curious to see what the differences are between the pro premium LEs and if they even do it different, like, art-wise because of... Well, no, the screenshot I saw of the Playfield was the pro, and it's the same art. It doesn't have the projector, so it doesn't have the projection screens. So you are missing out on that. And I think that's probably why the video was filmed so dark, so you could actually see the projections that much better. And a lot of people have sort of been saying, well, this probably won't work with pin stadiums. And you're probably right. It probably makes the play feel too bright for you to actually see the projections. Unless they're UV. Maybe. Maybe that could look good. Maybe that could look good, yeah. I don't know. Who knows? Yeah. Look, my first impressions are I'm really pleasantly surprised. I don't think we were ever going to see anything completely revolutionary from Stern, but I think we've seen just a step up, a bit of an evolution on how they present theme integration. And again, there are so many inserts on this play field, so many inserts. So when they all start going off, and in a way, it starts simulating the Christmas lights on the wall sort of stuff, that kind of works. I think as far as the theme integration goes, I think they've done really well here. Absolutely. And I mean, if people complain about innovation, I mean, how is this not just straight innovation? Just straight innovation. There's never been any kind of projection like this. Like, there's the only thing that's ever been close is Star Trek, and that's just laser pointers moving around. So, like, this is, like, literally theme-integrated projection and projecting stuff on a play field that's obviously controlled. So, I mean, this has never been done. So this is innovation. And this, hopefully, you know, this, it works. And, you know, stuff like that. Of course, you never know. I imagine that they've been, like, he's been two years. So I don't think he spent two years coming up with this play field. So I think that the part that's probably been underdeveloped the longest is this part of the game. Yeah. And getting this right. So I'd definitely be curious to know, because if you look at, like, the one picture that shows straight on at the Christmas lights and then the inserts, is that kind of like with Joe Fox over the table, like, OCD part of it, like, you can clearly see the right side is not lined up as well as the left side on those stand-ups. Yeah. Like, that would annoy me. like especially and imagine I don't know after a thousand plays two thousand plays is that going to shift even more is it going to get you know is it going to start drifting are the when the stand-ups move because they always do is that going to look weird on some of these effects I don't know if when it's been there for a long time is it going to get is the white not going to be as bright anymore so then the projectors screens aren't going to look as nice you're going to have to clean them what kind of material are they are they like whiteboard oh my god you are like literally all these conversations I've been having with people over the last couple of days. The number one is, okay, it's a projector. And projector, you know, there is a shelf life of projectors. Well, a lot of projectors these days are better technology and they last a lot longer. So, I don't know. You're absolutely right. There are all these concerns. And, you know, there were some concerns that people had with the laser light that came out on Star Trek was, you know, what happens when it breaks down. So, you know, those little projectors, they're not expensive these days. So I think if you have to replace it, maybe it's a couple hundred bucks. Maybe that's all they are these days, those little tiny ones. Oh, yeah. I mean, I imagine it's LED. Like, I'm not worried about, like, the maintenance of, like, the projector itself because, I mean, you can get – it doesn't have to be that bright. I mean, really, with projectors, the real thing you're paying for is resolution and lumens. lumens. So, as long as it's bright enough, and they, you know, I'm sure they figured out exactly how bright it needs to be to get you exactly what you want, and be able to project it over a proper surface so that, like, I mean, that's going to be the weird thing, is, like, I assume it's probably got to be multiple projectors, right? Or something, because, like, if you have it just straight on, and it's doing all of these surfaces from one angle between the flippers or whatever, like, I would imagine that the gaps, like how do you protect the gaps from not looking weird or having stuff on it right so like like the backbox to the left and the right the side the side art you know between the ramps like how do you not get that so that it's all unless it's a very controllable projector in that way where you're just getting zero light in those areas it I'm so fascinated by how this is going to work and I'm like just by the technical side of it like it's that's the most exciting thing about this. I mean, I do love Stranger Things, but I guess it's just the engineering part of my brain that I'm just like, oh, how does this work? I need to know how this works, and I need to know how, if you can calibrate it and all sorts of stuff, can you move it, can you dial it in? Is it in the software? You can shift stuff? So there you go. I mean, we're obviously going to know more about this machine in the coming days. I'm sure There'll be a feature matrix. We'll actually have high-res shots of all the three models, including the side art, which I guess we haven't seen so far to know what's going to be different there. That's true, and we'll hopefully get a better idea of what season this involves. I believe it at least holds season two, because in the pictures I see Max with her brother Billy in the side art of the head. So she was introduced in the second season. so we at least know we're getting season two stuff. Yeah, okay. I don't know. I haven't seen anything from season three yet. Now, one thing I... Some people have sort of said that they're not the actors' voices, but I don't know. I haven't really... It's been so long since I've watched season one and I don't really remember the voices, so I don't know whether they do actually have the voice actors or not. Some of them sound like the voices. Some of them do not. it's hard to tell because you don't know how high quality this video is you don't know they're throwing tons of clips at the same time so you don't know if they're good quality but I mean some of them definitely sound like the actors for like the kids sound like the kids I think that that's Hopper who's supposed to be talking to Eleven there that does not sound like Hopper for sure so I don't know if you know that just might be We'll see when the real quality stuff comes out. That's what we'll do. We'll see. So, anyway, good showing so far is all I'm saying. Very exciting. Yeah. All right. So, let's just move on to, it's a Christmas show. So, we are going to just get some random people off the street and just talk to them about their year in 2019. So, let's, I don't know, let's talk to some people. I wonder who we're going to find. Hmm. So, welcome to the show, Jeff Teolis. Jeff, how are you? Good to talk to you. I'm excited to be seeing you, what, in just a few weeks now and staying at your place. You'll be in my basement, so... You make it sound like I'm the gimp from Pulp Fiction. I'm pretty sure you're doing a good job of that yourself. But yeah, so tell me about the world tour because you've actually had some events, is that correct? It was an idea. I go to a lot of different pinball tournaments, as you know, and I thought, well, you know, some of these tournaments, I'm going to be there a day in advance. Wouldn't it be nice to have another tournament to play and put something together? So I looked at where I was going. There were five places I was going. Three were drivable and two were while I were on vacation, one being Australia next month and when I went to California with my wife in October and September. And I thought, okay, that's 10 dates. I could maybe put together a bunch of tournaments, see some places I've never seen, meet some people I've never met, and hang out with some great friends playing some pinball. So I contacted a bunch of great sponsors, Comet Pinball, Deep Roots, Jersey Jack, Stern, ULIF Store, Measel Mod, and Pin Stadium. Sorry to do the plug there, but they really mean a lot to me. And they all said yes. So I had these great prizes to give away, and we had these fun little tournaments with two left, one in Australia and one in Michigan. So it was fun to see a lot of different places. And how's the reception been so far? Have you had a lot of people coming along? Everyone except for the first one, I think, sold out because, you know, the first one was kind of new or whatever, and it was a Monday night. It was, again, that one I was on vacation, but who cares? I was playing at Three Gold Watch on a Monday night. Yes, I've been there. How good's that place? It is amazing. It's so much fun. I can see why City Champ sells out instantly, and that was great. Met so many wonderful people there in San Francisco, and, yeah, it's been a lot of fun. Let's see. We've got the one coming up at Ryan's on January 28th. I think that's the day after Australia Day. The day after the day after. It's the day after the day after? You know it's on the 27th, right? Well, yeah, that's absolutely the day after Australia Day. So Australia Day is January 26th, and that is the only day, really, isn't it? Well, the 27th is kind of the reason for me coming to Australia. It happens to be a big milestone birthday for yours, truly. You're going to be 30 years old. My math isn't good, but the point is looking forward to seeing a lot of Australia. Not everything. There's so many places I'd like to get to. Queensland, I'd like to even make it to New Zealand if I could. That's the next trip. But definitely going to be spending time in Melbourne and Sydney and even Perth and up in Bali in Indonesia. So that'll be a lot of fun. And again, that tournament on the 28th at Ryan's Secret Palace. It's going to be awesome. I know. So I think if people are wanting to go, because I don't even know how it's solved out, maybe. But if you look at Melbourne Pinball Tournaments on Facebook, there should be some information there. So check that out. Yeah, it'd be good to have you come over. So talk to me about your year because, again, you have continued to put out quality podcast after quality podcast all year. We have, right? But what I like about it is because we obviously, when we were doing the big interview things, we'd have different people talking, but they really were sort of part of the design team or part of manufacturing or part of that. So there was a particular angle. you talk to so many different people that have very different views and participation in pinball yeah i guess as long as you have some aspect of pinball whether you just love pinball you're part of the company you're just a player you're an operator whatever it may be artist it doesn't matter i'm interested in those kind of people and that's what pinball profile was all about and you know we all have that same common bond i repeat myself but we all love pinball and it's funny where they all come from all different walks of life. And, I mean, really, I consider you one of my favorite people, not only in pinball, but in the world. I love you, Marty. I'll say that. You and Ryan mean so much to me. We talk, a lot of people don't know this, we talk on a weekly basis and have for a few years now. Yeah, that's true. Sometimes daily. That's true as well. I never would have met either one of you guys if it wasn't for pinball. And that goes for so many other people that I consider good friends now. And so for me to share these great experiences with people that you may not know as a listener, you get a little insight. And every show is more about you're listening into a conversation than it is an interview. I don't want ever to be, here's a question. Give me your answer. Here's a question. Give me your answer. I like what we're doing right now. We're just having a conversation. Sure. I enjoy that. maybe it's a radio thing. When you listen to morning show radio, you're kind of listening to one or two or three talking heads, just kind of having a conversation, not a straight interview process. I'm probably not a very good interviewer, so I can have conversations with people, and that's what I try to do on Pinball Profile, and there's so many unique people. So I know it's probably hard to pick out your favorites. I'm not going to say pick out your favorite, but what have been some highlights of this year of people that you've gotten to speak to. One of the ones I'm most proud about is when I interviewed, is that English even close to me? By the way, it's like two in the morning here, so my mouth might not be working. But anyway, one of my favorites was interviewing Steve Epstein of the famous Broadway Arcade and just his great wealth of knowledge creating competitive pinball with Roger Sharp and just his passion into his 70s still for pinball. And I know in 2020, he's going to be more involved. So for me, it was great to learn things I didn't know. And I imagine for some people that maybe had no idea about Broadway Arcade or about the birth of competitive pinball, it was a nice history lesson. It's a great time capsule, if you will, of this wonderful man and what he's done for the pinball community. That one meant a lot to me. I, of course, enjoy talking to, you know, we joke with Josh Sharpe. He's my fake nemesis on the show. The guy does a lot for competitive pinball. I always enjoy those episodes because it's just we basically, as two buddies would do, just kind of take shots at each other. But it's affectionate and it's fun, and I always get a kick out of that. There's a lot. I mean, yeah, it's tough to pinpoint one, but that Epstein one really meant a lot to me because of the nostalgia of it. and I didn't know how often he had been heard in the past, and I wanted to share that. But were you kind of surprised by, because obviously it was a great episode, were you expecting it to be great? The reason why I say that, because if I look back on probably what was the best surprise, great interview that we did, was Chris Granner. Didn't know what to expect, hadn't ever obviously spoken to him before, and all of a sudden we just had this guy that connected with us so well that we were laughing hysterically through this interview. Just completely unexpected. Well, that's the great thing about that Chris interview too is just like I like the Steve Epstein one, great wealth of history and everything that Chris has done for pinball. It just, in one side you get the history, but in the other side you get a really interesting person that you seem to bond with over the hour of the interview, and that makes a perfect show. So, yeah, that's a great one for Ed to add. Yeah, but again, probably with Steve Epstein as well, you kind of get to the end and you go, oh, does this have to end because you could go for hours? Oh, I see your point. There's so many people I want to do interviews with because they're so fascinating, and even if I've talked to them before, there's more things left unsaid. So I will go back to the well to some of these favorite people and get more stories and more interesting things, just like you will too with some of your regulars. Yeah, for sure. So then thinking about 2019, in pinball in general, what's been a highlight? Now you can talk about either a show or a tournament or a machine that's been released. How's 2019 fared for you? We saw more machines than you can imagine in 2019. And I think you'd have to say every company said they were pretty successful. We just saw what Spooky did, selling out instantly with Rick and Morty again. Not many of us saw it coming, so that was a nice surprise. Stern put out so many great games. It started out with Munsters, The Black Knight. Nice to see an original theme, which I do consider an original theme from Steve Ritchie. Of course, we saw Jurassic Park come out, and Elvira was a hot seller. And even though we're recording this on a Monday, I'm going to say, boy, Stranger Things really impressed. Oh, my God. It was amazing how they were able to incorporate the upside down. That totally blew me away with what I've been able to see with Stranger Things that's just been announced by Stern. Wow. I mean, that was amazing. So, very excited to see the latest from Brian Eddy. And the coding team, insert name here. So, again, strong year for Stern. Really proud of what Jersey Jack did. getting Willy Wonka out, another great Pat Lawler title, a beautiful-looking game, very unique, very Pat Lawler-esque, but just from a production side, very happy to see that things have certainly turned around from Jersey Jack. Not that there was anything bad, just obviously when they had to go back to the well with Pirates, a fantastic game. They had these Willy Wonkas, they showed it, and they started selling them right away, so that was nice to see for Jersey Jack. And, you know, Deep Root, we got to see the prototype at the Houston Arcade Expo. Oh, you got to play it. I loved playing it. I really do. Yeah, you did say that. It was good. It was fun. And knowing that there's a lot more from what everyone says, that, you know, that's just a prototype. You haven't seen anything yet. All right. I like what I saw. And there's going to be more. Okay. I'm in. Yeah. If that's your base, good start. It can only go up from there. Yep. And American Pinball, too. You know, I've been to a few locations. Nice to see the Oktoberfests and Houdini. And obviously, they've got a great bunch of things in the works there. The new factory, what Chicago Gaming has done. My goodness, those games are... Thank you for turning back the clock on what you've done. I'm excited to see what's coming. But again, all companies doing really well. I got to say, too, I don't want to forget Damien, too, because Haggis, I got to play that game at Expo. I was so proud of what he did there, you know. That's going to be a fun game. It is a fun game. I played it. I was saying, like, God, where are we now? Yeah, like, only a couple of days ago. Where's my memory? And I really enjoyed flipping that game. It's come along really, really well. I think it's one of those ones where the layout's there and the layout's fine. It does what it needs to do. And then you've got code that starts building on the strengths of the layout. and that's what's coming good. You know what's never bothered me, and I hear a lot of this on Pinside, is people talking about single-level playfields. And they say it almost with some disdain. That means absolutely nothing to me. To me personally. Because really, is a ramp really another level? Not really. It just kind of brings the ball up back to an in-lane or somewhere else. I know. I know. I know what you mean. it's just managing expectations it's actually I think relatively simple to just bang on a ramp somewhere but we just have expectations that if you've got a ramp you're in the modern era and when you don't you kind of think well what is this we've moved forward but now is this retro and again with TNA it was retro but it had all modern componentry it's just good that pinball can diverge every once in a while from the fan layouts and the two ramps and the bash toy that we do get. I mean, hey, boy, I could play that all day long. Beatles, I just played on the weekend. Love playing that game. I mean, if they ever do a Quicksilver reboot, I'm all in on that. So there you go. Wow. Yeah. So what do you think, just going back to what we mentioned in the last episode, what do you feel about the Hot Wheels license, if that does come from American Pinball? I don't know because I'm personally not a car guy and I certainly had the Hot Wheels tracks when I was a kid I don't know what it's like globally is that a North American thing? what was it like in Australia? yeah it was around I always called them Matchbox cars but there was obviously Hot Wheels as well yeah I mean look I had them when I was very young but even though I know that you're considerably older than me we probably had How much older? Are you like two weeks older than me or something? You're February, I'm January, so yes Yeah, considerably older So, you know, I had them as a kid But there were other things that I had that I played more than Matchbox Cars Okay I don't know Honestly, does the theme matter to me? No, in any game I mean, there are some games, listen I'll tell you right now certain themes come out, I'm like, I'm all in right away. Kind of like the Rick and Morty thing, right? People dream things for people. I'm like that with certain games. Here's my money. But if the game plays fantastic, I don't care what. Like, I have no interest in Guardians of the Galaxy movie. I love playing that game. There's a lot of fun. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's good. So the theme doesn't do anything for me, but the game is fun. Okay. Well, so then taking your personal point, Can you see that therefore being embraced or being a successful theme out there? Whether you like it or not, do you think that people will go, yeah, Hot Wheels, great. I'll sell it out within four hours. You know what I mean? Probably not the sellout with four hours. No, I don't think that will happen. But I'm also a big Joe Ballster fan. I like a lot of his layouts. So that would excite me. But, yeah, the theme doesn't jump at me. But, again, standing the test of time, if it's a good pinball machine and a good earner, that will do well. See, when they did Mustang, when Stern did Mustang, in North America, you have people that are GM people and Ford people. So it's like Coke and Pepsi, right? Sure. So there are people that, even if Mustang was the greatest game ever, if you're a GM person, you're not going to touch that. Forget it. I'm not, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's polarizing, whereas Hot Wheels isn't polarizing if you're a car buff. Yeah, fair enough. Okay. So then thinking about 2020, of the machines that we know, and let's rattle them off and you can fill in the gaps. So obviously Stranger Things we're talking about coming up, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Led Zeppelin, a possible Quicksilver re-thing, Guns and Roses, Hot Wheels obviously, any of those that you're looking forward to? You mentioned one and I have a LE on order I'm assuming you're talking about Led Zeppelin. Damn right Yeah, absolutely I don't care how listen, I do care if the game is a turd, I doubt it will be a turd but But that's a no-brainer for me. I mean, it's like a jukebox in your house. But I, okay, Stranger Things, I'm curious to see. Well, I mean, we've all just seen it because it just came out. Teenage Ninja, Teenage, did I say it right? Is it Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Yeah, that's the one. I always get the Ninja and the Mutant backwards. So, listen, again, a theme means nothing to me, but John Borg's games, the guy hasn't made a turd in years. Yeah, they shoot well. Oh, God, they shoot well. I'm not a huge Monsters fan just because it's a simpler game, but it's not made for me. I love the way it shoots. It's a fantastic game. You had it. Doesn't that game shoot amazing? It shoots beautifully. Love it. Love it. So, good on that layout. Yeah, so if it's a Borg game, I'm all in. Yeah, okay. So, all right. What else did you have in there? Guns N' Roses? Yeah. Boy, I really like what Eric's done with Jersey Jack. Again, I actually like the band Guns N' Roses, so that could be cool. But if it's anything like his Pirates game, I don't know if it'll be wide or a regular standard game. I'm curious. There's nothing in the list you gave that went, oh, I have no desire. I'm interested in all of them. Yeah, the only one I sort of go, and that is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I just, I don't know. I don't get that franchise. But what you were saying before, it doesn't mean it's going to be a bad machine. It'll probably be an amazing machine. It's just not a theme that gets me excited. Yeah, you know, conversely, Star Wars is a dream theme for so many people. It's a wonderful license for sure to have. the gameplay had me lost for a long long time i think you you were like that too i was very confused by the game it's taken over a year for me to to get my head around it um but so again the theme can be misleading sometimes whereas yeah teenage ninja teenage mutant ninja turtles could just be a wicked game and i'll just have to quickly learn that i don't know everything about Rick and Morty, I'm dying to play the game. Yeah, okay. Fair enough. Have you not watched the series yet? I've only seen season one, so I've got to get up to speed. Do it. I'm telling everyone to do it. Just do it. It's a great show. I'll tell you something. I hardly watch TV ever. I know that sounds weird, but I would watch maybe two hours of non-sports a week. That's about it. Okay. So, listen, I've got a flight to Australia. I can kill 15 hours of downloaded TV shows then, so I'll pack it through. Okay. Awesome. Well, we look forward to seeing you then, and it's only... Four weeks. 40 days? No, less than that. I'll be... I'm in Melbourne, I think, on the 26th, flying in from Perth. Okay. Well, that's good to know because apparently I've got to clean up my house to get you ready. I can hardly wait. It's going to be fun. Awesome. And streaming. Oh, listen. We have to have a – listen. Don't you press the start button and then have a shot? Yeah. We were just talking before we started recording about how we can turn a drinking game into streaming. So, guys, write to head2headpinball at gmail.com. Give us some ideas about how we can make a sun drinking game. Rather than just, let me hit the start button and take a shot. Like, you know, that's too easy. No, let's go for, that's ridiculous. Let's do every plunge. I was going to say, before we could do stall balls, darling. Every time you get the ball into a hole, take a shot. So, that'll get us done very quickly. My wife, Anne, will also partake, and this could be really good. Awesome. Good for everyone. Excellent. All right, thanks for coming on, mate. Have a great Christmas and a new year, and I look forward to seeing you in a few weeks. Merry Christmas, happy new year. Love Australia, love head-to-head pinball. Looking forward to seeing you, buddy. Thanks, mate. Also joining us, we've got Dr. John. Dr. John, how are you? I'm good, mate. Good evening. Hello to everybody out there in pre-Christmas land. It really is pre-Christmas land. And how's your year been? The year's been full of activity, full of travel, full of excitement, full of pinball with games coming and going in and out of the games room, tons of tournaments, and luckily a couple of trips to America, at least one that I can remember at Pinburg. So I'm fortunate that everything I do with pinball now is just spending daddy-daughter time. So that's what I love. Well, okay. Look, let me just point that out. I don't know whether I said this on the podcast, I've said it to people. Just the relationship that you have with your daughters, this is Emily, obviously, is just so cool. I've seen you at these tournaments, and I've seen you just the way that you are with your daughter. It's just so freaking cool. It's just like you've got bands with each other. You rib at each other as well. But it's just very cool. I like it. I'm very lucky. A lot of men I know who have teenage daughters say, how are you coping with teenage years? And I go, they're great. We are so close. We have the pinball bond, which makes life great. She has not been rebellious in any way. The only rebellion she does is flogging me at games regularly. Yes, I bet. Yeah, so it's good. We love tournaments. I'm a bit of a helicopter dad initially, where I would get so nervous watching her play that now I'm banned from being near her when she plays. She goes, Dad, go away. It's just annoying. as I'm sorry, I'll go high. So tell me about the pinball machines that have come in and out of your collection this year. Oh, where do I start? Well, some of the new ones have been Catwoman Edition, Batman 66, and the Willy Wonka LE, of course. And the ones I've just sold are five, interestingly, without advertising. People are somehow stocking up for Christmas, so we've lost all my riches. Sorry, Steve. So Game of Thrones went, Star Trek Next Gen went, ACDC went, I say Game of Thrones, and then Lord of the Rings and Doctor Who went. But coming in, I've just bought a TX Hector today because I need old games. I know. That music's so good. I don't know the version yet. But you've got the Celts coming in. I've got to order number one. You did order a Celt. Yes. Now, what made you want to buy the Celts? Number one, to support the company, being an Aussie pinball company, always happy to support. The price was very reasonable, and I played it at Flip Out in Melbourne, and I thought it was a good game. It shot very well. I thought with the rules that he's coming up with, it will be a fun game. It may be rare, so let's get in while we can. Well, I can tell you now, I played it very briefly at Flip Out when I was just setting up a stream, and I've played it since. You're going to love it even more. Just the tweaks that he's done to it have just made it more fun. And I'm glad that you got it, and I'm glad that you're order number one. But, yeah, I was just curious to know what you liked about it, that's all. Yeah, the shots and the theme and the rules he's got going so far, I thought it's good on him. Good on him for trying. I said to him, quite honestly, I didn't think he'd ever make one. Everyone has a dream, but he's doing well. I'm watching the daily vlogs as he develops. Yes. All the hiccups at pinball is hard, so good on Damien. Yeah, good on him. Yeah. So what do you think have been some of the highlights this year with pinball? Pinball, the number one, and people say it, it becomes a bit cliche, but it's the people. Emily and I went to Pinburg, and it's really become a family event. It was always, you remember, probably five, six years ago, it was always middle-aged, semi-fat, balding men turning up to things. And now it's women, men, husbands, wives, children. Pinberg was just full of families. And when I go over there, it's like catching up with old friends that I first met probably four years ago at Texas, and now we get back together, and having Emily with me was fun. Yeah, so that was the highlight, actually. Pinberg, the tournament, but more catching up with the people again that I haven't seen probably for about six to eight months. Okay. How did you go at Pinburgh? Better than last time. I did the usual Pinburgh thing first trip where you have about two hours sleep a night, play every game with a hangover, but have a thorough good time. So I scraped into D Division last time, so this time I took it a bit more seriously, still bombed out in the last couple of rounds and made C Division, so next year is BB all the way. And how have you felt about the machines that have been released this year I mean obviously you got a Wonka Yeah got the Wonka Good I been avoiding it sounds terrible but I been avoiding Stearns a little bit because I had a lot of Stearns and I think the titles that have been coming out this year have been good, but I haven't been tempted to grab any because I want diversity. So I've got my Batman and my Deadpool Alley sitting next to each other and Jurassic Park, fantastic game, but I'm trying to avoid getting it. What else is coming out this year? Ellis Cooper. I've got my Ellis Cooper. Was that this year? They blur a bit, yeah. So I'm loving the Ellis Cooper. Again, it's totally different. What else is coming out this year? Can you remember the list? Wow, I do. Well, Munsters, Black Knight. Stun Stun. Yeah. Star Wars Comic Edition. Yeah, Stun Stun. October Fest. October Fest. Haven't played it that much because I just don't see many. Yeah. Yeah. I played it in Melbourne again. I played it in Denny a lot. I think the American pinball machines are good. The themes aren't grabbing me, that's all. And I counted up the other day, I've had over 50 machines come and go out of my games room, and the 12 that are sitting there at the moment are all based on theme. That's why they stay. So Wizard of Oz will never go. Pirates of the Caribbean will never go. It's just a fantastic game. My Alice Cooper will never go. I've seen Alice twice in concert. But, so, yeah, theme grabs me as a staying power. Play-wise, I'm happy to play every pinball machine except one, but we won't talk about that. The machine with no name. That's the one. Yeah. Yeah, we know about that. So do you think that theme can, I don't want to sort of say colour your opinion, But do you think it can compensate for some of the flaws in the game? Of course. Of course. I'm trying to think of a good example. In the converse, Johnny Mnemonic is a fantastic game with a horrible theme. Yeah. It'll go. I've got it at the moment. I've bought it twice just because I love the shots on it. Yeah. But theme-wise, Alice Cooper is a great game. It's just very hard. Yeah. So I was going to use Alice Cooper as the example because a lot of people said it's tough, and I know it's a pretty brutal game, and it's just that the layout, the shots are just not in conventional places, so you've really got to relearn how you play pinball to really get into that. But if you've got a theme like Alice Cooper, which you love, that means you'll put the time into it to work it out. Just so you can dance along to those songs. You'd never hear. I hadn't heard half those songs before. Oh, really? Fever would never be played on the radio after about 1986, I think, with a song about disco massacres. Yeah, no. Yeah, no, I can totally understand that. And Rick and Morty, what do you think? It's Lock, Do, Netty. Really? Did you get one? Bloodsuckers, yep. Oh, wow. Okay, so were you a Rick and Morty fan beforehand? Purely by Ryan's nagging. stayed at Ryan's house and he said, you have to sit down and watch this. So he made me sit down and watch, the first episode was the car battery episode with the microverse and the electricity generators and fell in love with it there, came home and did the same to Emily. Emily, you've got to watch this. So we've watched all three seasons now and we're waiting for season four in about two weeks, one week, one week season four starts. So we absolutely loved it. Yeah, through Ryan's nagging. And yeah, so we got a hold of Katie at an early hour and put her name down for the bloodsuckers. And so at what stage did you know that you were going to purchase it? Was it when they said, we're doing it with Morty, you went, okay, I'm going to get it? Or did you wait to... Pre-reveal, yes. Yeah, okay. Just a thing. And it's the sort of game, 750, not too many will come to Australia, there'll be no problems selling it. Same as TNA. I had TNA. Loved it as a group game. Not so good as a single player at home. But when friends come over, loved it, but had absolutely no trouble moving it on because not that common and a fun game. So it's worth taking the risk when it's a game limited numbers with a great theme. Okay. And now that you've seen the layout and a bit of the gameplay, are you happy with it? Yeah. We'll see. Bowen's on the rules, and it used to be in Lyman we trust. I've now got in Bowen we trust. He will be creative. I think the shots are there so it'll be good yeah okay cool yep and anything that you're looking forward to any games coming up any of the rumours that we've talked about Stranger Things my name is Dan with Bruce I'm number two on the list for an LA Stranger Things yes really yeah that's a family favourite show amongst the entire family Emily and I Rick and Morty but the entire family Stranger Things so okay I've actually got the wife's blessing for a game which is a hard thing to get so We're down for that when it reveals, maybe next week, maybe. Maybe it's already been revealed and we know what it looks like and the upside down is incorporated through video projections onto the playfield somehow. Could be with changing target projections. Oh. You can listen to the rumours as well. It's all I do. That's right. That's what you've got to do. I know. I know. But Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, does that get you excited? I already owned it, and it was terrible. But a new version of it? No, I've been scarred by the Data East version. Yeah, it was a terrible game. What else? Led Zeppelin. Would you be interested in a Led Zeppelin game? No. I actually got onto YouTube after Ron talked about Led Zeppelin being the most sued band in history. He called them a cover band. I didn't know anything about that. So I went back and looked at it. Oh, yes, what a way to heaven, yeah. Well, not only that, like probably five or six songs, they were successfully sued for stealing old blues songs that they liked, just adding a bit of guitar work to it and released it as their own. And imitation is the most insurious form of flattery, but I think you should give credit to the original songwriters, which they had to do after the lawsuits. I'm not taking away from them. They were a very clever band, very good. I like their songs, but meh. Well, as original as one would think is what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. But another Stern. I just don't want too many Sterns in the house. I'm happy to play them on location. They're all great games. But you just need variety in your collection. Yeah, I feel the same way. I get bored of games when they feel the same. You know, I've got two Sterns. So 50% of my collection, really. But, you know, well, actually, the three, God, because I've got Lord of the Rings. But then I've got my Wizard of Oz. So that's, you know, let's just say a quarter of it. And the last thing we're asking everybody about is Hot Wheels. How do you feel about that as a theme? That's one you'd have to look at and play. Again, it wouldn't be a keep in the house because it's not a theme that's fantastic. But if it comes out like Roller Coaster Tycoon, no thanks. if it comes out like No Fear with Jump Ramps and all that, it may be a lot of fun. Yeah, okay. I hear you. That was kind of what I thought. I was like, I want to see it. It could turn into like a really fast, exciting game, but I'll have to say, theme alone, I'm just very cool on that. Correct, correct. But I'm concerned for the future. I have great concern. I'm worried. I'm very concerned. The way Pinball's going, I was looking at it today and having a think, and I think we're at the end of an era. The end of an era where a middle-aged fat man can go to a tournament and win. All these kids. We've expanded the hobby so much that kids are taking it up. And the number of themes that are coming out, with the fear of missing out, it's getting very hard to keep up with releases. Well, speaking of kids, didn't we just have Escher Lefkoff come out here and win a tournament? Yeah, come and look at all my high scores at home. All my GCs are gone. Well, that gives you something to chase. That's the thing. If you want to see, we did an Emily and Dr. John YouTube clip with Emily, with Esha on Batman 66. And he was doing little things like, one thing I never really got into was how to use multipliers. Right. He taught us how to use multipliers to the extent where he shot one ramp and that ramp shot was worth $1.4 billion. And I go, right, so the top 20 players in the world, or maybe in the top 50, are playing a different game of pinball than the rest of us. Yeah, that sets them apart. Yeah. So go Classics comps. And modern students, I'll leave that up to the children who know all of them. He's a lovely boy. His dad and mum have done a great job. Very grounded, very polite. Yeah, I've met him. It's nice. Yeah, everyone noticed. He came up for the Queensland Championships and one thing he did before every game, he would say to people, are you comfortable playing this game? Do you know the rules? And they would say, oh, not exactly. And he would then go through his tactic. I like to hit the left ramp followed by this. I like to do that. And he would tell them all and they would say thanks and then he'd do it. And then I didn't. And it was a great lesson to everybody. How comfortable he is in his ability to say, well, I can tell you this, but you've still got to do it. Correct. He likes a level playing ground, So you can show your skills rather than being someone who knows rules more than somebody else. Let's do it as a pinball skill contest. So everyone appreciated that. We had three tournaments, Friday night flip frenzy, Saturday seven strike fair strike, and a Sunday Queensland championship match play, and he won all three. So stop coming over here, Americans, and taking all our bloody tournaments. It's good education for us. You get better playing better people. Well, that's exactly right. So come over, I guess, is what I'm saying. Not when I'm in a tournament. Yes. That would be great. Now, so last time we had you on the show, we were talking about the fact that you were even more famous than you were previously by going on hard quiz. Is it now that every time you walk down the street, people go, oh, yeah, Dr. John, you were on hard quiz. Sure. That's what's happening. Well, it all died off, and then they repeated it two weeks ago. A whole new batch of patients came in just, you're the guy. Yes, I am. And the neighbours, the street people. It's a wonderful show. And I like the fact that in Australia our top TV award, the Gold Logie, goes through the most popular TV personality of the year. And it went to the host of the quiz show, Tom Gleeson, and he actually personally thanked me. Well, he said thank you to everyone that came on the hard quiz. So I took that as a personal thanks. That's a personal thank you. That's right, that's right. He is hilarious, and I loved his campaign for that, because it was the anti-campaign. Correct. He basically threatened to quit the show, just so people would vote for him. Mm-hmm. Yes. That's cool. I like that. He's funny. So, in the spirit of that, I wanted to do a bit of a hard quiz of sorts. Uh-oh. Yep, yep. A quiz without notice. So, what I'm going to do, this is a hard quiz, but let's call this Wizard Quiz. I don't know, I literally just made that up, because I can't think of anything better. What I'm going to do, I'm going to give you 60 seconds, and I'm going to name machines. And, by the way, this was Ryan's idea to do this, so you can blame him. Thank you, Ryan. So, what I'm going to do, I'm going to name the machine, and then you need to tell me the name of the final wizard mode. What? Okay. Yep. Okay. You ready? 60 seconds are going to be on the clock. Oh, do you want more than 60 seconds? I'll either know it or I won't, so 60 seconds is fine. So, just say pass if you don't know it. Are you ready? I'm going to do a countdown. Sure. Yep. Here we go. Adam's family. To the mansion. Lord of the Rings. Valinor. Metallica. Crank it up. Well, yep. Next. Star Trek. Five year journey. Close, I'll give you that. Walking Dead. There's Bloodbath and then there's Horde and then there's... Correct. Okay. Dialed in. Oh, I owned it. I've got 60 seconds. Let me think. Dialed in. Quantum City? Chaos? Nope. Nope. Armageddon. Attack on Mars? Rule the Universe? Star Trek The Next Generation? Final Frontier? Twilight Zone? Lost in the Zone? Wizard of Oz? Somewhere in the Rainbow? Guardians of the Galaxy? Nah. Indiana Jones? Pimple Adventure? Oh, no. I can't remember. Nope. So that was Eternal Life multiball. So what did you get right? You got Metallica, Star Trek 2, Adam's Family 3, Lord of the Rings 4, Walking Dead you got, Daldin you got, Attack from Mars, oh no, Daldin you didn't get. No, I didn't get it. Attack from Mars you got. and... Lord of the Rings, should we say? Lord of the Rings. Yeah, and Star Trek Next Gen. And Twilight Zone. Okay. And Wizard of Oz. Okay. So I reckon you got ten right. Yay! Not quite the well-oiled machine that is Hard Quiz. Oh! But you did really well, I must admit. Would you have gotten World Poker Tour? Oh, gosh, no. There is a one. There is a one, was there? Well, there is, but just can't get to it. Keep internet invitational. No. What about ACDC? I'll give you some. Okay, go. ACDC. Encore. Come on. Alice Cooper. No, I don't know that one. That's Million Dollar Baby. How about America's Most Haunted? No. That's Battle of the Boss Ghost. Johnny Matic. Power Down. Nice. I'm just trying to figure out the games in my collection. Willy Wonka. Oh, no, I don't know Wonka. That's Two of the Factory. Might be a wizard, mate. And Pirates of the Caribbean. Break the Curse. Yes, I think so. Yeah, they're good. It should be because it's on the list in front of me. So keep asking me. Here you are. Here you go. I'm like, damn it, it's not on my list. Had you said Ghostbusters or Deadpool or Mustang, Aerosmith, Iron Maiden, I would have had those nailed. There you go. Joe Lemire, I know how you feel. Awesome. So what's on for Christmas? What's going on? Well, we are having a Christmas at home, and then on the 28th of December we fly to Colorado to change our temperature settings from 38 degrees to minus 12 for a bit of skiing with the Lefkoff family. Awesome. And then down to what's now called the Open. Which was in this. That's right, now the Open. So it makes more sense. It's still my favourite tournament. Yeah, it's still my favourite. Major tournament where there is no restriction on entry, hence the term the Open, which is good. Yeah. Awesome. well that's really good and hopefully at some stage in 2020 I get to cross paths with you again maybe at Flipout again if you come down definitely that would be awesome you can come up to the Bridge of the Masses I'll come quick trip unemployed thing alright call it out no I can't get the doll I can't do it. Why? No. Because I... Oh, yeah. You're longer. Because you've got to be broke to get that. And I've got enough to survive on. So, as long as I don't travel. Exactly. Yes. So, John, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. It was great to see you this year. Great to have you on the podcast. And great to see you on Hard Quiz. And I'm going to go on to iView now and watch it again. Thank you very much. And happy Christmas to everybody. And have a great new year. Awesome. Thanks, mate. Thank you. So now we've got joining the show two of my most favorite people in the world, Mrs. Pin and Dr. Pin. I was going to say from the Mrs. Pin People podcast, but there's also the super awesome Smile Time. There's a lot of fun. How are you guys? We're great, man. We're terrific. Thank you so much for having us on, Murray. Always a pleasure having you guys on. And it's the Christmas episode, so of course I've got to have you on. and as we sort of said just before recording, there's no notes. There's no script here. This is just talking about pinball shit, right? I fucking love it. And how was your 2019? It was a great year, man. It was a really good year. Yeah. What were your highlights? Pinball highlights? Yeah. Man, playing in Pinburgh was definitely the best. I had so much fun. I met so many great people. I didn't win, but I didn't even do anything there. Can I just throw out there that we destroyed E-Division. You and I crushed it. I think I came in like 130 seconds. It's all good. We rocked it. Yeah. I guess I beat like 68 people. That's really good. You had no expectations, right? This is what I like about you guys. You were just like, we're just going to be there. We're going to have some fun. Whatever happens, happens. And then maybe one of you got into some fun. Yeah, we brought home a little hardware. We did the E-Finals and we did it right. We had a lot of fun. I was like the best fucking cheerleader. You were. You were. That's one of my favorite episodes, just because you were sitting there cheering me on. I was like shitting bricks, honestly. I was so nervous. You and me both. Holy shit. I couldn't even watch. But, yeah, we love Pinberg. We cannot wait to do it again in 2020. Yeah, for sure. Let's just hope. Let's knock on some wood. We need to get some tickets. Yeah, F5. I know. And, obviously, KPF. I got to see you twice this year. I know. Oh, and Marty, we've got to talk about 2020 and when we're going to see you again. Is it going to be TPF? Is it going to be Pinberg? Both, I hope. Or do we have to come to Australia? Yeah, I think it's more likely that you're going to have to come to Australia. And I have been badgering you ever since we started chatting, which was, oh, I can't tell you how long ago it was. But I think it was like week two of the Mrs. Pinspinball podcast. We sort of reached out and had you on the show. And we've been saying, you guys have got to come to Australia. We can't wait. And, yeah, I, you know, part of my whole break and all that kind of stuff, I'm not thinking of travel next year at this stage. So you might have to just get over here. It's our turn. It is. We are up for sure. I mean, it's a – how long is the flight, Marty? It's like 19 hours, dude. Oh, from your east coast, aren't you? Yeah. It's pretty far. Yeah, it's about 22 hours. Yeah, it's pretty far. Well, our daughter is obsessed with poisonous and deadly creatures, and I think there's no better place than Australia. It has like 19 of the world's deadliest fighters. Yeah, we're proud of that. Yeah, yeah. We're going to have to like tempt her with a trip to the outback to see Red Rock and lots and lots of critters. Yeah, that's pretty much all of Australia really. There you go, right? And so how do you think 2019 has shaped up as far as pinball releases go? Any highlights there for you? well I have to say that uh my greatest of all time was released in 2019 I think Wonka uh takes the edge now from Attack from Mars I love the game I play it all the time it's a theme that that resonates um the whole family loves it every time we come down to the basement we play it so I'd say that Wonka was a highlight for me um for sure yeah what else I don't know um I'm really excited about Stranger Things. I feel like some of them, some of the other machines that came out were like better in person actually playing them, but the themes, it's not like I was jumping through hoops for. You know, Black Knight and the, was it the Monsters this year? It was early in the year. Just, you know, in terms of the themes alone. Elvira. Yeah, Elvira. I kind of felt like they were way more fun in real life than I thought they would actually be based on the titles alone. But there was nothing that called to you and said, I have to own this game. Yeah, no, not really. Just the Wonka and only because of you, honestly. Right. Yeah. All right. So, Stranger Things. Yeah. And you haven't even seen the teaser trailer because that came out last night. It was leaked last night. It was probably after 8 p.m., which means I was sleeping. You were definitely in REM sleep at this point. and it just came out. Okay. So, Marty, as a special show exclusive, I'm going to show her the trailer on your episode. Okay. Awesome. Let's see what she thinks about it. Is your volume up? No, I don't want to hear it. No, no, turn it up so that everyone can hear what you're listening to. Yeah, you have to hear it. Okay, hold on. Well, now I've got to figure out how to do this shit. I don't know how to. Oh, wrong side. Sorry. Technology plus Mrs. Penn. Not my forte. Okay. All right, here we go. All right, here we go. Let's see what we've got. All right. Stinking. Yeah. Really thick. Here we go. Ooh. So what do you think of the art? Ooh, that is so cool. Isn't that cool? But that's projected on the screen. But what is that thing? So there's like a projector in the middle? There's a magnet that sucks walls to the ball. Balls to the wall. Walls to the ball? Yeah. You must be in the upside down. Oh, that's a really nice, like, LCD screen there. But look what's behind it, the Demogorgon. The Gorgon. Ooh, that's cool. That's like, that kind of reminds me of... Attack from Mars? No, all the lights and the arrows kind of remind me of TNA. Oh, yeah. Right in the middle. That's it? That's it. It's quick. What the fuck? 47 seconds? Are you kidding me? They couldn't give us a minute? So, in their defense, this has been leaked. This hasn't actually been the official release from Stern. But you know what? I do have to say that I am going to call shenanigans on that shit because I just feel like you have to know that something's going to be leaked. You have to. If you put anything out there to distributors, it's going to get out, right? Right. 100%. So, don't be stupid. Like, if this is out, they knew this was going to get out if they sent it to anyone. Look at all the inserts in the play field. That's a ton of inserts. Yeah, that's like really crazy. I know. And so what did you think about the projector that sort of comes down and becomes a ramp? I don't know. I kind of like it. I feel like it's something that is new, and so I feel like that's kind of – anything new is exciting, right? Yeah. And it's kind of hard to figure out new ways to be innovative when so many machines have been made and so many machines are made every single year. The projector, though, is totally new. And that, even though the layout is a little bit similar to Attack from Mars, I mean... A little bit. I mean, a lot of it. I didn't see that. Seriously, what's so similar about it? It's a pre-thirt game, so it's hard to see. Yeah. And the thing of it is, you can't really see it from the video. Right. But I may have seen a layout picture. And you didn't send it to us? No. It's Christmas, Marty. I know, but it looks just like Attack from Mars, like ridiculously. And I know Joe and I are going to talk about it if we haven't already talked about it already because I don't know where we're going to insert this bit into the podcast. But it's Brian Eddy who we know has done, well, take Shadow out, but he did Attack from Mars and he did Medieval Madness, which had, people say, are very similar layouts. So it was kind of like, you know, is he going to do something new or is he going to stick to what he knows? And he stuck to what he knows. And let's face it, those machines came out 20 years ago. So we haven't really had that layout, unless you count the remakes, of course. Right. But he's now done it for Stern with some new technology. So I'm interested to know what the response is going to be from people when they look at the play field and go, huh, that's Attack from Mars. I actually don't blame him, though. I mean, it's a recipe that has not failed him, and it's withstood the test of time. You've got two of the number one and number two, or at least the top five on Pinside every year. So maybe the newness that comes with this is the tech. I mean, the projector that's there is very, very cool. The magnet in the back of the machine is new against the wall. That's a little bit unique. So if you can throw in some... Have you seen it? Well, I think it's quite similar to the magnet on Kiss, on the premium in LA. You know where the ball jumps onto it and then moves across the backbox? Yes. Yeah, you're right. So it's not that unique, but it looks freaking cool. Let's face it, it looks cool. I don't know. I was expecting to go, oh, yeah, whatever. But I don't know. After seeing that video and it being sort of dark, like the video is being shot quite dark, it kind of gives that Stranger Things atmosphere, I guess. It does. It does, right? Maybe it's the theme music in the background and the call-outs, but it sounds to me like they did get the assets that everybody wanted. It looks like the projector is going to project on the screen in front of the Demogorgon and also around on the spinners and other and targets. I mean, that's really cool because that opens up. I mean, everyone always says you can't change the hardware. You can only change the software. But here, I mean, maybe that flips the script a little bit because now you have something that can change what's on the play field. And that's cool. Maybe an update will change, you know, how things look when you're playing the game. I mean, that's very innovative, something we never had before. I'm literally watching this for the 12th time. That's how short it is, okay? But here's the other thing. So, I mean, I see some similarities, but really there's a ramp on each side and something to hit in the middle. So that's like basically every pinball machine. Yeah, true. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I like the projector thing just because I think it's really cool. I like that it's not just something to cover up the Demogorgon. I think all the inserts are really awesome. I think the lights look like they're going to be great. I like the art on it. I don't know. I love this theme so much because I love this show so much. So I feel like I could really, really love this. I love that you're saying this because this is a game that we might ultimately own. Well, I'm not reordering this. I'm not reordering this. I'm just saying, Scotty. But I would love to own this game. Oh, I thought I was going to ask whether now that she's saying that, would you be doing it? That pause was going to just fell off my fucking chair. There's no scoop. There's no scoop? I'm trying to think about it. But him, it's a scoop. Yeah, he is. It goes right in his mouth. Yeah, maybe. Is there a scoop to the right of those drops? It's hard to tell, man. It's really dark. Yeah, PinStadiums would be a good thing for a dark game, but maybe not in this game, right? Okay, so that's what a lot of people are saying, is because if you put PinStadiums on, it kind of ruins the vibe of it. The ambiance. Yeah. But also, you can turn the brightness of PinStadiums down to a liking. And then maybe that will then start affecting the quality of the projection as well. Who knows? That is one thing that I might want to see in real life before I pull the trigger and buy this thing, because you'd want to know if it's something like if you turn your lights on in your man cave and you're having a party and you have other games that need light, is it going to detract from the gameplay of Stranger Things? That could be an issue. You better slow your roll or we're going to have a bigger issue than that. I might be talking to the guy a little bit, but, yeah. Okay. Well, it's all going down on this podcast, so. Marital strife. So would you sell a machine to get a machine, or are you happy with your collection? Oh, man. The only thing that I think I would ever potentially sell is my Ripley's, and Sarah's first topper ever, and probably her coolest topper, is on top of that machine. So it would be hard for me to lose it. Really? We just keep the topper. Where do we put it? On the bar or someplace. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I love Ripley's, but I could see myself selling that one. Everything else is pretty much a keeper. Okay. And what were your thoughts on Rick and Morty? Ooh, I thought Rick and Morty was really cool. I don't know. So this one, the theme doesn't get me like Stranger Things because I don't love the show, but I really liked the look of the game, and I think that if I was a bachelor, this is a game I would own in a second. Any game that swears is a game for me It's got a dude's humor I mean obviously plenty of women love this show But it's very fraternity brother You know South Park-y Simpsons It's just got a lot of Really funny Fart jokes I think is the best way to put it Fart jokes Yeah I mean it's got a flying butt on the play field Or on the cabinet Do you think it actually makes a fart noise? I'm sure there's a fart noise. It would absolutely have to have fart noises in that game. No way about it. You know, it's a theme that I think a lot of people would really like, and I'm so happy for them that they sold them out almost instantly. They did. That was crazy. It was great. That was crazy. I think it remains to be seen how it plays. I mean, Scott was on the stream last night talking about how difficult the game is and how it is a very brutal game with that pop bumper on the left sling, that it just fires it down the middle, and that there are some ball saves that are linked to that because it's so brutal. So we'll see how it plays when we actually get to sit down and play it, but it looks like it's going to be a really fun game. And any other machines that you're looking forward to in 2020? I mean, the rumors obviously are, what have we got, Guns N' Roses? You'd love that, Mrs. Pink, wouldn't you? Totally not excited about Guns N' Roses. But I feel like the game itself, you know, there's excitement over the theme, and then there's excitement over the game. And I think any game that comes from Jersey Jack is a game I want to play. And Eric, right? Yeah, Eric Nier. Oh, he's the bomb.com. Seriously. So if this is Eric's product, then I think we support it just because it's Eric. Right. But I think that the theme doesn't do it for me, but any – I mean, Jersey Jack's games are just awesome, man. And they have so many great toys and colors and sparkles. I love it. And some other rumored things, so Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, is that grab you at all? Oh, yeah, yeah. I think that one way more so than Guns N' Roses for sure. Apparently Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is going to be the next big jump technology-wise for Stern. So they're going to have the Internet capabilities and a few other tweaks that aren't on any of the other existing games. So some people are talking about the jump between Ghostbusters and the current lineup of Sterns being an analogy for what's going to happen with Turtles. So we'll see if that happens and if it is really as cool as they say. But I'm more excited for that technological leap than I am for the game itself. The theme doesn't really do a ton for me, but I'd like to see what Borg does with it. Yeah. And last one, Led Zeppelin. Oh, Marty. I'm excited for... Let's just put a few more dead white guys who sing or used to on a machine and call it a day. I'm most excited for David Peck. I really hope he loves the game because he's the only guy out there who I think is so fucking pumped for a Led Zeppelin machine. Well, and Jeff Teolis. And Jeff Teolis. Jeff Teolis, you mean? yes absolutely um hot wheels is that a thing for hot wheels yeah cool i don't know toys you know i i love toys i feel like it's just kind of nostalgic our girls love hot wheels who doesn't love a toy car i don't know i mean it's just the fact that a toy themed toy is out there. I mean, having Rams... It is! Just having the potential for all the gimmicks on the playfield. If they do it right, which I think that America could, because they've done some really innovative things with their last two machines. If they can make some really cool new features for this, I think it could be a fun game. It's got to have Hot Wheels all over that fucking ship. Seriously. Tons. What about you, Marty? Are you excited for Hot Wheels? Is that a thing in Australia? Yeah, we talked about it last time. It kind of is, it kind of isn't. I don't know, but I think that it is. Like, theme alone, I scratch my head a bit, but I also think that if you integrated that into a really fast, flowy game, that some of the ramps resembled the tracks that you would have with those kind of cars, and maybe there's jumps and stuff like that. Yeah, right. Or maybe a loop. You know, that kind of stuff would be cool. I don't know. American Pinball has not had a theme where people are like, oh, yeah, that's going to really kill it. And I feel like Hot Wheels is the closest they've come. I feel like they've got a license that has a lot of people excited about it and that like the toy and have fond, nostalgic memories, right? That's the key word. You need nostalgia in pinball. If you can get that, then you've got a good license, and Hot Wheels has that. Yeah, I think it's got a lot of potential, man. I really do. So we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. And podcast-wise for both of you, you've had a good year? Sure. We just wing it, Marty. You know how we fly. I know. I have listened to your show. Yeah, I know. I know. It's gotten a little off the beaten track lately. Yeah, but every once in a while when you feel the itch, you get on the mic and usually, you know. It's still fun. You know, that's the thing. When it's not fun, I'm not doing it anymore. I've heard that somewhere before I refuse I think 2019 has been a good year all told for podcasts you've put out some awesome episodes even fewer and far between but every time you put them out they're awesome I mean I don't know about that but you're biased I'm extremely biased I put you as my favorite on the twips aww hey thanks babe I put myself too But, I mean, I have a podcast, too, so you could return the favor. I actually think I did. Oh, nice. But I'm not positive. So, yeah. So, I started with my two co-hosts and awesome all-around dudes, Christopher Franchi and Ed Van Der Veen, the super duper, well, no, it's just the super awesome pinball show. So, check that out if you're into pinball podcasts. That was a shameless plug. Yes, it was. Like, shameless. it. But that was really fun. That was a highlight for sure of my pinball year. That's totally true. Yeah. I don't know. What's the highlight of your pinball year, Ben, Marty? I would say probably TPS, I think, was the big highlight. Because it was my first real big show in America where I wasn't in a tournament. So I just got to hang out and talk to people. And I've sort of said at the time, I mean, what was it, like three days we were there? And I would have played pinball, actual pinball, for maybe, I don't know, a total of 45 minutes to an hour over those three days. That's so funny. What about your streams, man? Your streams... I remember we were doing a bet at midnight, and we were like, Marty, what are you up to? And you're like, I'm going to stream American Pinball's Oktoberfest at 1 a.m. Yeah, for the next 17 hours. See you tomorrow. Yeah. Well, that's right. But there's also, forget the big... One of the big highlights from TPF was the man K, right? Yeah. I still watch that video every once in a while just to, like, make myself extremely happy because there was so much going on in that video. I think it was Steven Bowden who recorded it, but your expression, Sarah's giddiness over giving it to you, and just you going through everything that was in that manquet, the lotto tickets, the gin bottles, the stickers of Ryan's head. Like, it was all so good. Well, you would have seen that at the flip out festival that we put on where I had the tournament as well. I bought all those stickers and people were clamoring for them. Oh my God, that's so amazing. And they were being stuck in some of the most inappropriate places. Oh, there are so many good stories about those stickers. You made me very proud. Very proud. Yes. Well, thanks guys for coming on. Really appreciate it. Have a fantastic Christmas. and obviously say hello to Pincess and Pinderella for me. We sure will. You too, Marty. Marty, we love you. We love you and Ryan and Joe and everybody with Head to Head. So happy holidays, Merry Christmas to you guys, and have a great New Year. Awesome. Love you. Bye. Bye. Joining the show yet again. We cannot get rid of this guy. God knows we tried. Hey, Christopher Franchi, how the fuck are you, man? I'm sorry. You're going to have to address me by my new name, which is Dirty Zombie Crap. What? If you could. Because I need to get one of them hip, you know, gig poster surf punk names. So I'm Dirty Zombie Crap from now on, if you could. Well, I just think you're Franchie. Franchie, you're forgetting your first name. You're just Franchie. I always call you Franchie. Should we give everybody what they want right about now? What's that? Hey dude your chalupa fucking sucks man Well here the thing right So for those people that don know and you should know Chris Banshee is a very well-accomplished artist. And, you know, when we had you on our show for the first time, we all talked about the fact that everybody's very critical. And I would say, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of people do get critiqued in the pinball industry. you know, manufacturers, designers, I think art is where it actually gets really focused as far as the feedback goes because usually it's one person and there's a name against it, unless it's the original Star Wars in which there was a team of nameless people. But, you know, if it's Guardians of the Galaxy, the machines that you've done, or Beatles, or Munsters, everyone knows it's Christopher Franchi and only Christopher Franchi, even though I'm sure art direction Greg Ferrer, They're all involved, but it becomes Franchi, so therefore it's an attack on Franchi. Then you've got the design team, and then you've got the manufacturers, but they seem to be sort of like a team of people where you're generally, you know, putting your angst towards. But when it comes to art, it's the artist, and you have to be fairly thick-skinned, I'd imagine. Oh, suit of armor. Yeah. Definitely suit of armor, because there's people, you know, it's like the whole Chalupa story thing. It's like, you know, why can't you just look at something and go, I don't care for it. Now, everybody in the, well, not everybody, but a fair amount of people, especially pin siders, like to get on their soapbox and, you know, shout out the most clever insult they can think of, whether it's genuine or not. You know, I tend to think half of these people probably think the artwork is okay, but they just want to get in on the, you know, insult party and throw, you know, jokes around. And I don't think half of them, you know, really consider how that makes somebody feel, whether they're talking about art, you know, and myself, or they're talking about the game designer or the coder or, you know, whatever. They just, you know, maybe they don't think about it. Maybe they do and they just don't give a shit. I don't know. But, you know, that's just not something I care to do. That's fair enough. We've talked about it is the age of social media critique and people have a voice and less of a filter. So I don't know whether necessarily people are doing it to, you know, create harm. But I think it's just because everybody has a voice and people just want to say what's on their mind without a filter. And it then just becomes a bit of an echo chamber, which really is the problem. Yeah, absolutely. So anyway, 2019, how has the year been for you, Franchi? Well, you know, if it hadn't been for this last month or so, I'd say, you know, almost not there. We had Munsters come out, a game I did for Stern, in January, like first week of January. Yes, correct. Which was awesome. It had a ton of hype building up to it. And when it came out, nobody was let down. And then they started playing it, and then some people thought the code was kind of shallow. And then, you know, a rather big handful of people were let down. But, you know, it's like Dwight says. He created what he wanted, which was a game that would be accessible to many people, not just like tournament players and things like that. And I have a ball with it myself. I don't even know the code for half the games that I have. I mean, I just whack the ball around and have a good time, you know. So it's fine for me. And there are certainly no complaints in the art department. And, you know, I was very, very happy with what everybody had to say about that game. Do you think people understood your vision for the black and white version? Well, it wasn't my vision, really. I mean, I did all three art packages in color. And Stern came to me after I was already done and said, we're going to do the premium in black and white. and I was like ooh and what's funny was I spent an abnormal amount of time tweaking the colors on the premium one so that just crushed me and I'm like well wait a minute I basically said to Greg I can't let you do that to this artwork I don't know what it was about this particular art package but I spent a lot of time on the color so what I'm going to do is I'm going to move this art over to the pro we'll bring the pro artwork over to the premium and then make that black and white. And that's what we did. So, you know, it was just a matter of, you know, it took a few days. It took several days to actually convert the art to black and white because you can't. Well, that's what I was going to say. You can't just go into Photoshop and go convert black and white. You can't actually balance the shades. Yeah, yeah, you can do that, but you're just going to get what they give you. And, you know, yellows turn to, you know, they tend to be too gray, and, you know, you want them to be probably more like a white. Reds turn black, you know, so you, and you have to keep everything on separate layers so that things can be movable. So it's not like you're just taking all of the art and going, okay, I'm going to tweak the red. You know, you're taking just the picture of grandpa over here, and you're tweaking that. Then you're tweaking this, then you're tweaking that. And then you have to tweak all the, you know, the point amounts and all the insert graphics and then the backgrounds and, you know. And then there's all the plastics and everything else. So it took quite a long time to do that, which I thought was funny because after all that effort, then they go in their various color. That's right. I delayed. So, but, you know, it was what it was. I think it's pretty cool. you know it's just I think the sales got a little deflated not sorry the sales but the yeah sales but not S-A-I-L-S got a little deflated when the guy came out with the black and white Twilight Zone like just a couple weeks before I was just like aww but you know still I thought it was cool it was fun it was actually the only game that I had released You know, everybody knows the story about, you know, the situation between me and Stern that lasted eight months of me basically doing nothing before I left. So then what's interesting then, right? So I don't know how public it is what you're doing right now and who you're working for. Name them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's public. I'm working for Chicago Gaming Company. Yes. I am working on a small project right now, which is just, you know, the first thing I did was the artwork for the topper on, oh, God. Monster Bash? No, no, no, Medieval Madness. Medieval Madness, right. Yep, okay. There's a castle background, and I did the artwork for that. And right now I'm working on a couple of little piddly things for another release. And what do you call it, a re-release? Yes. And then I have planned a whole new game, a whole new complete art package and everything. So that's coming down the road. So that's what's planned with them right now. And I actually ended up, you know, I'm really glad I made the move, to tell you the truth, because these guys are fantastic to work for, and the quality of their games is, I think, unmatched, and they don't cut corners. They want to make the best game possible. So if something costs a couple extra dollars, they don't care. They'll do it. And, you know, that's what I want to put my work on is, you know, something like that where people have a standard of quality that, you know, it doesn't have a dollar amount attached to it. It's, you know, whatever it takes. Well, then, so have you felt, you know, seeing games released throughout the year and you not working on a game, are you sitting there going, oh, damn, or are you thinking, no, it's all right, something will come? I'm trying to understand your question you should do a podcast, you're so good at this I'm thinking about it I need to find a couple of guys that are good during the year when I was sitting around waiting for work what was I thinking? yeah no, I wasn't thinking of anything in particular when games were being released because those games had been started like a year ago. So that wouldn't have been anything I was on because, you know, usually the way it is is, you know, you finish up a game, and so I had Monsters in January, and right around February, you'd kick into a new game. So, you know, when C's game came out, Black Knight came out, you know, I wouldn't have been a part of that because that had started already. And then same with Jurassic Park. so basically right around the time after Elvira came out that might have been worth something that I would have done, would have been effective I think the closest game I could have been on after I finished up Monsters would have been Stranger Things ok so let's look at some of the machines that have come out this year and let's just get your thoughts on on art. I don't know whether you would have done something different. So obviously, I'm not going to do this in chronological order only because I can't remember when these freaking games came out. But let's talk a couple of them. First one, let's talk Cosmic Carnival. What do you think of that? It's Dirty Donnie. So it is what it is. He's got a certain style and he likes to draw certain things. And apparently they just said, do what you want. So it's very Dirty Donnie. It's not my thing, really. I mean, I don't know what the guys are looking for and whether they got what they wanted as far as what I look for in pinball art. Not really my thing. Nothing against Donnie. I like it. I like it. And I think that I think what people have said is that nobody really enjoys playing the game. But they said, that, it looks good. So, You know, I think they got, for a very small boutique company that obviously didn't succeed, I think they got a really good art package for something that was really unknown for an unknown company. Yeah, yeah. It's just, I guess the title and the artwork, I don't know. You know, honestly, I didn't really look at it super closely. I did look at it, but I didn't really stare at it. But I didn't see a connection between Cosmic Carnival and the artwork. I just saw a lot of, you know, Dirty Donnie signature type stuff, you know, flaming skulls and eight balls and, you know, that kind of stuff that Donnie likes to do. You know, it was all right, just not my thing. Okay. I can only give you my opinion. Of course. And so what did you think of Black Knight when you saw it? Black Knight's Black Knight, you know. I think the artwork fit, you know, because obviously there's two games prior. So, you know, I thought, I'm trying to remember who did that, because who was the guy who did Kiss, the original Kiss? Oh, was that Kevin O'Connor? Yeah, yeah. It was Kevin O'Connor who did Black Knight. So I think he did it justice. I like the colors in it. I like the mood. And I think he did a fine job, yeah. I think it's good. Okay. What about October 5th? October 5th, I didn't care for. It's just it looked like three different people worked on it with three different styles. Some stuff was art. Some stuff was Photoshopped. You know, I hate stuff like that. You know, it's like it just looks like a hodgepodge of, you know, different things. You've got to have consistency. And to have one thing be a photo and another thing be art right next to it, It just takes you out. You know, it's like I'm not looking at art. I'm looking at photos. I'm looking at photos. I'm not looking at art. You know, what's going on here? So it was not very cohesive at all. So I would have done that a lot differently. You've got to pick one or the other. You know, and these days people expect artwork. They don't want, you know, Photoshop work. So I would have not done the, you know, taking pictures of your girlfriend and putting their faces on them. you know, the October Fest, the beer girls and whatever, and let's not forget the monkey ass grabbing and all that stuff. Yeah, we never forget that. Yeah, there were some good things, too. You know, like I think the big kooky face of the dude on the side, you know, was good, but I just would have liked to have seen all of it done like that. Yeah, fair enough. And it wasn't, so I've got to give that a thumbs down. What about Wonka? Wonka, I hate to say, didn't like it. I've seen those pictures a million times, and there are photos. If anybody's confused as to what that is, it's not artwork. It is photography of Willy Wonka. There's some photo retouching, like, you know, let's fix up his little hand here a little bit. And some of the kids had some paint over. That's what they call it when you take a photo and you kind of touch up over top of it as a paint over. So just not a fan of that sort of stuff. The colors were all right, but... Is that hard for you because I know that you did some art for the Wonka social game. Mm-hmm. So is that hard for you to say what you've done there and gone, oh, I wish I'd done that because you would have been using your style? Yeah, I definitely wish I would have done that. And I'm not panning it because I didn't do it. You know, at the time I had no relationship with Jack. So, you know, that is what it is. Yeah, I love Willy Wonka. I love the movie. And I would have loved to have done it. And the stuff that I did was illustration. You know, I posted some of that stuff that I'd done for Zynga for their social media games. And, yeah, that would have been fun. And because I did that, I know a lot of people are saying, oh, well, you know, because of the license, they couldn't do it. No, horseshit. You could have drawn Wonka. They just didn't want to or, you know, cutting corners, you know, being lazy, whatever. I don't know. I'm not saying what they did or why they did what they did. You know, multiple choice. Take your pick. but I just didn't think that it was a good choice to go with the photography because we've seen, you know, it's the same reason why I did what I did with Batman it's like, those shows are so old and there's only so many assets laying around that we've seen them a million times that picture of Willy Wonka is on everything that they make, you know, if it's a lunch box or a t-shirt or whatever, you see that picture all the time, it's on the cover of the DVD box set So, you know, I would have done something completely different and done illustration. Another thing I noticed that the candy, I don't know if it's just me or what, but the candy didn't even look like the candy in the movie. It looked like this really ornate, weird, you know, pieces of hard candy that I didn't see in the movie. So, like, did they just find clip art of candy and throw it in there? so yeah I thought a lot of opportunities were missed with that art package I didn't care for it speaking of opportunities missed what did you think of Star Wars comic edition oh what a loaded question that is do something comic booky how about this no alright next wait wait wait can I try again what did I think of it I thought it was great I like it It reminds me of like you know The wax wrappers on the old trading cards From the 70s you know That kind of a look You know I think it's cool I like it a lot better than the Original stuff they did Oh for sure Yeah I thought that stuff sucked Yeah I thought it was good I thought it worked Definitely give people a reason to buy that game Over the other stuff Cool well here's an interesting one what did you think of Kelts from Haggis Pinball Kelts is cute it's very cartoony but for some reason it works when I see that game I think I almost get the feeling like it's a licensed game based on these little barbarian comic strip in the newspaper or something And, you know, and I'm not insulting anybody who did it because they did, you know, they drew it, you know, comic book-y style intentionally. And I'm calling, you know, I'm calling it what it is. I don't see why there can't be a place for that in pinball. I think it's fine. You know, I think it works for the game. And, you know, I'd like to see people take more chances and do different things other than, you know, your typical straightforward, you know, art package all the time. I guess it's fun. I think that's what I'm looking for is that it looks fun when you look at it. So I think it's cool. Cool. All right. Say more. Jurassic Park. Jurassic Park I didn't like. I thought I didn't think they captured the action of the movie in the the back glass and the cabinet artwork it just kind of looked like a coloring book cover to me you know, just kind of static lots of plants everywhere I don't know, I just didn't care for it There were parts of it that were good. But, you know, it's like I tell people all the time, you know, there's some people out there that say, you know, Canada, for one, I know is always going, you know, there's artists everywhere. You know, there's not just these three guys. Go get some more artists. Well, doing artwork for a pinball machine is a beast all its own. You can't just know how to draw. You have to know what to draw and where to draw it, you know. And, you know, making that with a cohesive pinball machine, it's totally different than just being able to draw. And so when I looked at, you know, I know that's a first time out job for Johnny Crap, whatever. I don't know what his real name is, but I guess it doesn't matter. But, you know, I mean, there was some craftsmanship there. but I just didn't care for the choices and the layout and I just didn't feel it captured the excitement of the property. So let me tell you what I think because obviously I've got a Jurassic Park and art's really important to me and why I had Munster for so long because one thing that was really hard to let go was the fact that it's Randy's art. It was freaking amazing. But anyway, here's what I think about Jurassic Park. When you're playing the game, it actually serves a purpose I guess is what I'm trying to say in that you're not really looking at the intricate art but it has the colour that I guess from the flipper to the back it serves a purpose and takes you on a journey of the fact that you've got this island and it's there. If you then really look closely at it it doesn't know what it is meaning is this cartoon or is this real? it's not leaning either way enough it's right in the middle where you go okay it's there it's art I'm not seeing the stamp of the artist is probably what I'm missing there right yeah yeah it just you know when I first saw it I mean it's going to sound mean I guess but the first thing I thought was that it looked like a placemat for a you know kids meal for a restaurant or something like that. Yeah, I'm not too offended by that, sure. Well, no, but what I mean by that is the style. You know, it's got that, like you said, that cartoony sort of a thing going that it's just kind of hard to put a vibe on. And I think that's what takes some of the terror out of that. Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying is that if you're going to go cartoon, go really cartoon. Like, do your proper line and, you know, increase the point a little bit just so it does stand out as comic. This is kind of just a bit in between. Yeah. But it serves a purpose. It's not offensive. So it's just there. No, no, it's not lousy. You know, it's not garbage. I almost said crap art, but it is crap art, isn't it? Uh-huh. I wonder, but he must get that all the time. Oh, hold on a second, hold on a second. Hey! Try the veal. Like me, it's been here all week. Hey! So, okay. Moving on. Last one. There is Elvira. Elvira. Elvira was fine. I know a lot of people bitched, but I'm like, what were they expecting? You know, Greg did the first two. He did the third one. The third one is in the style of the first two. between the first one and the second one, there was no artistic growth, like meaning he wasn't changing the art with the times where they would expect some gloriously, you know, Photoshopped, you know, artwork for this one. Like, well, the first one was real, basically, and then the second one was kind of cool, so this one should have been like what art packages look like now. No, the first two were very consistent. The third one, Matt's the first too. I don't understand what people didn't, you know, get about that. So, you know, it's Greg. Greg's a legend, and I thought it was fine. Yeah, good. I actually really like it. I played it last week. I actually really liked the art. And it's one of those things, and this is what I say about your game, not that I want to piss in your pocket too much. God, that's happened already enough. But one thing I like about your art is when you start looking closer and closer and closer, you see the intricate stuff that you've done that nobody would see. And that just means that's the effort that you put into it. And Elvira, for me, is like that as well, where if you sort of stare at it, you'll actually start seeing things that stand out because you've looked closer in. Right. Yeah, that's the, you know, I do that for two reasons. Number one, so things don't get old. You know, you can't just say, well, I've seen it already. Because like you're saying, once you start looking around, you see new things. And the second thing is that I pick shit to death. Like, you know, I will work on something until they come to my office and pull it off my desk and say, you can't do this anymore. We have to go to production. So, you know, that's where a lot of that stuff comes from, too. You know, you stare at something for a year. You start getting ideas like, oh, what if I put this in here? What if I did that? and what if I hid this behind there? So, you know, I love doing that sort of stuff and I think it keeps things interesting. So, sure. Okay. We actually have one more game, don't we? We have two more games. We have Rick and Morty. Yeah, and Stranger Things. Stranger Things. But yeah, these are the ones, so far, I guess the ones that have been revealed properly. And I was going to go on to Rick and Morty next. Stranger Things is just so fresh. We haven't really seen it a lot in detail, just the video that was leaked. but give me your thoughts on Rick and Morty and Stranger Things Rick and Morty is perfect I'm assuming it's artwork from the company because it looks exactly like it if it's not, whoever drew it lovingly recreated the style that it's in and I think that's exactly what anybody could have expected so I think it's great, I watch the show myself when I see that, I see Rick and Morty And some people are let down like, oh, it's real basic. Have you ever watched a show? You know. Yeah. That's what it is. It's faithful. You know. Yeah. Yeah. It's completely faithful. So I think it's fine. Stranger Things, major let down. I hate to say it, but it's just Photoshop. I've seen photos. I've seen pictures as well as the video. And it's just Photoshop. You know, there might be some crap. I mean, it looks like they, you know, photoshopped in a lot of sparks and smoke and horseshit like that. But all the characters, you know, when I first started hearing rumors about that, I was hoping that was the job that I was going to get put on to because I really liked the show and I would have loved to have drawn those characters. And then when I saw the art, it's like, oh, you know, it's not even art, you know. It's just kind of a bummer, kind of a letdown. because, you know, we don't want things to drift backwards. You know, with the assets, the problem with the assets is like, okay, well, we're not even going to try and get assets anymore. We're just going to not do them and create our own thing. You know, whatever you've got to do with that to get it done, get it done, sure. But with artwork, you know, it took a long time for, I guess, Stern to lead the charge and say, okay, you know, you guys are sick of, you know, Game of Thrones, you know, we're going to bring in some artists here. And, you know, we certainly don't want to see that slip back into Photoshop to whatever to save a buck or I don't know what the purpose is. But, you know, you could never say that there's not an artist that could have created this and made it look good. You know, I mean, if Zombie Yeti did it, it would look completely different. And I can see where Netflix would be like, we don't want this. It's not that, you know, Jeremy's not good. It's just not the style of the show. But for someone, you know, with a style like mine that's very realistic, there's no reason why it couldn't be done like that. Well, that's what we don't really know is how liberal the scope they're going to give you, the license holders, they're going to say, you know what? You've got the universe of Stranger Things go crazy, or whether they say we are protecting the visuals of our show. it has to be photorealistic because, you know, we just don't know. And I wouldn't necessarily say controlling, but just what are the parameters? How much scope are they giving you to be free with your art style? And I would imagine not a lot. You have to base that on, and just go to your local, do you guys have Targets in Australia? Yeah, we do. Go to your local Target, go to the movies and music section, go against the back wall, and there's like this collectible section, and there is a whole six-foot section of Stranger Things stuff, lunchboxes, action figures, all of it, I'd say 80% of it has artwork on it. So we know that, you know, that they'll – and as a matter of fact, the artwork on it is supplied by Netflix. It's assets. It's style guide stuff. So it exists, which means not only did they have it to use, and then that would have been kind of sucky to, like, just pull their artwork off of their CD and throw it in your art design. But my point is we know that it's accepted. It's allowed in the world of Stranger Things licensing and merchandising. So it could have been done, and it just wasn't for whatever reason. Who knows? Okay. Well, so then let's just chunk it up as high as we can go. And it's sort of talking about using the whole Elvira thing, how you didn't say that progressed. But I believe that we have seen in the last few years that art in pinball has significantly improved. It really has, I think. There was just a period of time where, and I'll call it the, let's call it the, oh, God, the Sopranos years, right? Because I think for me, Sopranos is, and again, it's art. and I'm sorry that I'm offending the person that did this art, even though I don't know who you are. But that, for me, is one of the low points of art in pinball. It actually is fine, and when you're flipping about, you don't mind. But when you look at the art on Sopranos, you go, wow, this is really quite bad. But then, cut to today, even the likes of Stranger Things, where you go, oh, maybe not, and also Jurassic Park, you go, oh, maybe not. It's still so much better than what it was. I think we're now just wanting so much more. I mean, we want more with all pinball. We want different layouts. We want cheaper prices. We just want more. So I still think we've got to stop and say, even though the likes of Jurassic Park was a bit disappointing, even though Star Wars was globally panned, it's still better than 10, 15 years ago. Yeah, it is. And one thing people don't... In fact, I've never heard anybody talk about is that one thing that's significantly approved during the time that Donnie and Jeremy and myself came in was the color palette. Everything was brightened up. You know, you didn't have this black and white, dingy, dull, you know, garbage art. Like, you know, we came in with whole new color schemes. You know, I've heard, I think it might have been you. Somebody once said that I had a knack for taking colors that you never thought would have went together and made them work together. I don't remember who that was, but I think that's a significant thing, too, is, you know, picking colors that really make the game pop. And it's not just so dull looking. Oh, Sopranos had that nasty black and white, you know, cabinet. Oh, God. Sopranos is awful. Well, if you remember, and I know you remember this, and I don't want to have to bring it up, but I'm going to. When we're talking about Guardians of the Galaxy, and I preface this by saying, you know that I've said to you personally and also on the podcast, I think it's possibly still to this day the best playfield art. I would say for me, Munster's a close second, but I still think Guardians of the Galaxy is, the playfield is fantastic. I then also mentioned the side heart, right, so you take that compliment I give, and then I take away I talked about the side heart, and I did mention the phrase time bomb, okay hate me for it, I did but now when I look at it I freaking love it, and what I said at the time, which I just thought was so crazy, but you're talking about it now is how you managed to match seemingly unmatchable colors together that somehow worked. You know, when you had Guardians of the Galaxy had the bright purples and the bright oranges, and I'm like, those colors shouldn't be seen without another color in between. We all know that phrase. But somehow that's what you did was that you made those new combinations of color palettes acceptable and normal, and now people do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I see a lot of parity in what I do and as far as colors go. And it's, you know, I'm not offended by it. I'm flattered by it, you know. But I guess we all borrow. Nothing's ever 100% original anymore, so. Yeah, no, it's more so I'm not saying that people are copying your style. I'm just saying that you set the standard that said, hey, guys, this works. Now go and do it. Right. Yeah. Yeah, no, I didn't say anybody copied. I'm just saying that I think, you know, the color palettes of what the three of us had brought in have been borrowed or, you know, sampled, basically. And, again, there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's flattering. And, you know, all it does for me is it says, you know, hey, if you questioned what you were doing at all at the time, you don't have to because, you know, people are taking that and running with it. So you did something right. Yeah, exactly. So there you go. Chris Banshee, thank you so much for coming on And giving us all your thoughts on art from this year, you know, I think it was important for me because we've all got opinions, but we're not. And I know we talked about this before we recorded about experts. And I know you don't feel comfortable feeling like you have to tell other people what art is. But you know a lot more about art than I do. So, therefore, I think you've got more of a valid opinion than I do. Yeah, well, that and being trained to present art on behalf of licensors, that's another thing, too, is representing their property in the way that they want it to be seen. And so you've got to throw that in, too. Did they capture that? Did they capture the license property? Did they do it justice and so on and so forth? That's another thing that you have to think about. Can you draw? Yeah, okay, well, can you do this? Can you take this property and make it work on a pinball machine and do all the things that the license holders want you to do with it? So, yeah, it's a fun job. And also, the other thing is you've also got your pinball show now. Remember, I didn't say podcast, I said show. So you've got your super awesome pinball show, is that right? Super awesome pinball show, yes. It's a show that I do with Ed Vanderveen from Texas Pinball Festival and Christian Line, who is better known as Dr. Pin from Mrs. Pin's Pinball Podcast. Yeah, me and Ed talked about doing this almost a year ago, and it was just bad timing. I was busy, and he was running for mayor, and, you know, I'm like, that's the last thing, you know, we're doing a podcast where we're going, fuck this, and that sucks. You know, and you're running for mayor. Like, I don't think you need that. So, yeah. And at the same time, I just felt something was missing. You know, I was like, I just wanted to think about it more. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought like, you know, Ed and I are similar. I'm a lot more over the top when I guess in the cynical department. But we are, you know, sort of dark humor, sort of the same. And I think I told Ed, I said, we need some balance. And the nicest guy I could think of was Christian. And I'm like, let's bring Christian in. And I think that's full circle. But you never know what the chemistry is going to be like until you sit down and you start talking. And when we did the first show, I'm just like, oh, thank God. You know, like everything just seemed to work so perfectly. And all the feedback that we got was exactly what I wanted to hear, you know, that, you know, they got what they expected from me. and then they got a more normal viewpoint from Christian and Ed sort of in the middle. You know, he's like the tennis net. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun. Love those guys. Love doing the show. We do try to bring something different. You know, it wasn't like, hey, let's just sit down and talk about pinball because I have a background in doing podcasting. I did a radio show for four years. It was a once-a-week, Saturday, early afternoon sort of a morning show. So we call it the morning show for slackers because it didn't start until noon. But it was all like we did a lot of prerecorded bits and things like that, and that's what I wanted to do with pinball was do something that's sort of entertaining, not just our viewpoints because, like, how many viewpoints do you need? You know, the hood of this new game is out. What do you think? go on for 45 minutes talking about it. It's just another opinion. We do do that. We just don't do it to a deep extent, and then we pepper all this stuff with all these different things. The interviews that we've done with people are hardly what I would consider to be a typical interview. Ed just interviewed Steve Ritchie and talked about his cut-off finger. Nobody has ever told that story before because no one ever asked him about it. You know, they were just like, hey, let's talk about your new game. You know, we were talking to Eddie Munster about, you know, doing cocaine in the back of his car with Iggy Pop, you know, when he was 19 years old. So, you know, it's a pretty interesting show. It's fun to do, and, you know, it's been very well accepted. We had, like, when our first show came out, we had over 900 listens before it even got hooked up on any of the pod catchers or Apple, you know, iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, all of that stuff. That was just people who were, like, literally clicking on a link that went directly to our podcast host and listening to it that way. So, obviously, once the doors opened on all the other things, you know, we got a lot more listens. But to have 900 in, like, four days just based on that. It's not bad. Yeah. Yeah, I was really happy with it. So, it's a lot of work. It takes a lot of love to get through it and not just throw your hands up and say, screw this. Yeah, well, the production quality is absolutely through the roof, as I know you know, because you're the one that does all that stuff. So, it's great. And I'm glad for another one. It takes the pressure off me and Joe. So thank you. I appreciate it. Well, you know, it just gives somebody something different. That's exactly right. And there's certainly enough room for more and different. Yeah. Yeah. We try to steer clear of the things that most other people do, you know, just out of respect. And, you know, I think people that are doing it well, you know, why try to emulate that or, you know, whatever. It's like it's already being done well. It's, you know, good enough. Let's do something else. Good stuff Alright Thanks very much man Have a great Christmas And New Year And maybe I'll bump into Next year Yeah Come to TPF And yes I hoping to We see how we go Have a wonderful holiday And to all of listeners a Merry Christmas a happy whatever you celebrate and also a Happy New Year Awesome thanks mate Alright Marty, see ya Bye man Okay, so, joining the show is somebody that we've probably mentioned more than anybody in that they've never been on the show and both Joe and I have met this person a number of times and is also So a patron subscriber, and part of being that patron subscriber at that level, gets to come on the show, and it's our Christmas show, so I couldn't think of a better time than Joe Fox to join the show. How are you, Joe? Good evening, gentlemen. How are you both? Excellent. Yeah, much better now. Yeah, absolutely. How's your 2019 been? It's been great, personally and in the hobby and family-wise. I couldn't ask for a better year. I just hope that next year it even improves on that. And I guess the machines that are being released this year, have you purchased any of them? I've probably purchased all of them, sad to say or happy to say. I think without off the top of my head knowing every single one that was released, I'm sure I've had them all. Really? Can you bring Cosmic Carnival? No, there you go. See, not off the top of my head. No, no Cosmic Carnival. I've had Let's see I have Elvira now I have Jurassic Park Star Wars comic edition No Cosmic Carnival I don't have Willy Wonka I passed on that Black Knight Monsters Yellow Brick Road That pretty much covers them all Wow We're done this year Yeah, that's pretty much all You bought all the good ones And sold some of them as well So what's in your collection? Do you have Because obviously that's a lot of Well, pretty much all the machines except Cosmic Carnival. So all the good machines that came out this year. Do you only really have modern machines, or do you have some old ones as well? No, I've got a kind of somewhat balanced collection, I like to say. I host three to four tournaments at my house per year in the local Delaware scene where we're at. So I like to try to keep a mix that's, you know, solid state and newer DMD stuff kind of even so that it works out for that. so I have stars and meteor and sea witch and whirlwind uh I have uh I'm sure more than I'm not thinking off the top of my head so it's a good mix to try to balance it out so how many machines in total do you have I have 31 presently bloody hell damn that many is there a is there a an era that you do prefer or you just sort of like a pinball across the ages so being that I Funny enough, I just came into the hobby just shorter than four years ago. My initial draw was, of course, to everything new. So my first game that I ever purchased was Ghostbusters, and then I had Transformers after that, and then the list babbles on. But I've found myself now gravitating backwards to some early ballet stuff. You know, late 80s, Solid State System, 11s are some of my favorites at this point. So it has turned around, which I think a lot of people find. They initially jump in and they want to see the newest, coolest thing, and then they start realizing that, oh, there's games that are a lot better or better suited for me that were back from the 80s or early 90s. So then how would you, in your mind, resolve a game like Beatles, which is an older solid-state layout with modern-ish rules and tech? I have a Beatles and I have a Sea Witch. I actually tell you I enjoy playing the Sea Witch better or enjoy it more than I do the Beatles, but I can definitely see why they made the changes to the Beatles play field that Gomez made, making the loop shot a little wider and easier to hit, to make it more repetitive and more fun. Obviously, the technology just blows it away from Sea Witch of what that was to what it is today. I just find myself gravitating back towards Sea Witch, though. Okay. So is Beatles like a good theme for you? Beatles is a theme for me, so I definitely was more of a fan of the Beatles than I was of Metallica or Iron Maiden, but I wouldn't say it was a theme for me. Of the games that you do have, like you mentioned the Sterns, which versions do you tend to go with? Like, do you have a LE or a premium Jurassic Park? So I am, I would say, blessed and lucky enough to be able to financially be stable to afford, obviously, a lot of games, but also the higher end models. I'm also very impatient. So when it comes to a new release, I always will say, oh, I'm not going to get the LE this time because, you know, it's not much different than the premium. and then I realize I'm going to have to wait weeks for the premium, so I buy the LE and therefore I have it. So typically I have LEs of all the newer Sterns, Jurassic Parks an LE, Iron Maidens an LE, Munsters. I did not have an LE. I had a pro, then a premium, then a pro again, and now none of them, but I typically gravitate towards the LEs. Okay. Right. So I kind of look at you, Joe, as being, I would say, a really good reference point for a lot of these manufacturers because you are a consumer. Let's put it out there. You're a consumer. You're going to buy the machines and you're going to experience all the machines. And you're also brand agnostic, meaning you're not a Stern fanboy or a Jersey Jack fanboy. You're just a fan of pinball. So my leading question to you is, how would you compare the different manufacturers? And I'll probably talk really the four main, I guess, being Stern, Jersey Jack, CGC, and Spooky. So Stern, I would start off with by saying that they are the king of the hill. There's no doubt about the fact that they can mass produce more games than anyone has ever tried to do and will do in the modern era, of course. Um, with that being said, Jersey Jack has put, in my opinion, tried to put the gauntlet down in front of them in the sense of build quality and, and, and building them like tanks. We obviously know there's been some more recent issues with playfields and different things like that, that, that other people are experiencing as well, but it hits Jersey Jack a little bit harder. I think it did this time around with Pirates and then with Wonka. CGC, to jump that quickly, is putting out a great product. I have Monster Bash. I have Medieval Madness. I have Attack from Mars, all the remakes. I don't have as much reference point to compare them to the original Williams games that talk about flipper delay or, you know, not being the same, but I've not had any issues with them. Spooky, I have TNA. I have had Alice Cooper. They have gradually gotten better and better and better with all their builds, but I still think Stern. Forget theme. They just have it down more to a science than I think anyone will ever be able to do in our lifetimes. I didn't mention American Pinball because I actually do know that you've owned a couple of American Pinballs as well. Yep. I've owned both Houdini and I've owned Oktoberfest. their build quality is also very good from a perspective of the consumer they just couldn't keep me with the themes you know I just couldn't get into them enough to keep them in my collection between the two which one was your favorite oh I would have to say probably Oktoberfest at least it was more playable for me I mean you know I'm not a Joe Lemire you know as far as the play and go. So for me, Houdini was very frustrating. There's no secret that shot to the trunk shot was very tight. It was makeable, and I've made it plenty of times. But from my perspective, I want to have fun. I want to have the game continuously and not beat me up. Although I continue to keep TNA there, even though it continues to beat me up. But it's just a different kind of beating, I guess. But no, Houdini just was a very tough game for your average to below average player versus Oktoberfest was a lot more open, a lot more easy to hit shots. Forget about changing coil powers on the flipper shots and stuff like that, but just more wide open shots. I would say that even Houdini and Alice Cooper are still really hard and frustrating for even people at my level. Those games still drive me crazy, but I really enjoy Houdini a lot. Not as much Alice Cooper for whatever reason. Like, the frustration in Alice Cooper is a lot more, I don't know, palpable than it is for Houdini. But, yeah, those games, no matter how good you are, it's always frustrating. So, like, I think that even after you get up to this level, it's still, I don't think there's a point where those games get easy for anyone. Well, the biggest problem I have with Houdini is the voiceovers and the people that's, like, the Australian jailer just was so shakedown. It was unbelievable. I wasn't going to mention it this time because I mentioned the call-outs too many times. But I knew one of you fuckers would. He still beat me to it. That was going to be the next thing. I was like, how about that sound? Damn. All right. So fake sounding. I could do a better Australian accent than that. You are hilarious. I'll tell you, if you had to put a gun to my head and I had to choose one or other to have back in my collection, I would choose Houdini over Oktoberfest because at least I could get more into the theme of Houdini than I could Oktoberfest. Yeah, I really love the theme of it, like, the steampunk, like, Houdini theme. And, like, I also like the allure that, like, I've never gotten anywhere close to deep in that game. So I think that would be a great game. It'll always be. That's a great game for any collection that's just going to be there. that you'll have those days where all of a sudden you wake up and you're just, you can shoot everything, but it's still hard enough and still deep enough where you're still probably never going to see the end of it. So it always has that carrot that will always keep you wanting more. Which is a good thing because even from my level, like, for example, Munsters, it couldn't even keep my attention because as bad as I may play, I was getting the Munster madness almost every time on either the first ball if not the second ball. So that was to the extreme opposite of where it was almost too easy. Okay, so then I was going to sort of bring this up as part of the main podcast that we're going to do, but it's probably better to even talk about it now because I want to talk about Elvira. Because last week, a week ago, I streamed Elvira and everybody's been asking me my thoughts on it. A lot of top players have said, oh, it's just too easy. and I got to the end of the code and I'm not a great player so that sort of indicates that it's there. But then when I was streaming last night and someone said, what are your final thoughts on Elvira? I said, yeah, you know what? I think it is a relatively easy shooting game but I like that because like Houdini, which I really enjoy, it does constantly beat you and it seems a bit unfair. with Elvira, Elvira I think has got a really satisfying layout, the shots feel really good and the code is really early, so what I think they're doing is I think they're making almost like they're trying to perfect the home game, which is stop punishing people, but make the rules really deep and interesting, and that's what I've found so far with the game, what are your thoughts J-Fox? So, I have a ton of faith in Lyman, and I sat through Batman 66 from day one of being released. I had one delivered, and I sat there, and I sat there, and I waited, and I waited, and I waited while everyone cursed it out and said it's terrible and it's the worst game ever made, and blah, blah, blah. And I waited, and I waited, and I waited, and now it essentially is done, and it is one of the best games that Stern's put out in the last 10 years. I have faith that Elviral will be very similar to that. It's very, like you said, you got to the end of the code as it is right now. I haven't been that fortunate. However, I do like the flow of the game. I think the ramp shots feel good. I think the shots are easily findable for a novice and an advanced player. And I just feel like the codes are going to come along in hopefully not a two-year period like Batman did, but in a good amount of time that will keep people's attention. I'm not a huge Elvira fan. You know, I do remember her being on TV when I was younger and my dad might put it on or watch it recorded or something like that, but I was never an Elvira fan. I, you know, I had a scared stiff, never played Elvira and the Party Monsters. So for me, you know, it's just a matter of new machine, get it in, see what it is. And, you know, luckily the market is good enough still, even though it's getting a little softer for resale, if you're not completely happy with whatever you buy. yeah and then even Batman is not done yet, he's still adding more major villain modes in there so it's crazy hmm, well that's what I'm saying with Elvira is certainly when you look at the inserts and what is unfinished it can get really complicated so remembering Elvira didn't have a pro so it only was premium LE and signature LE so this one really is for the home market But I'm saying, I mean, it probably isn't, but I think it is more geared towards the home player. And going back to what you sort of said about Munsters, because I think there's some similarity there with the layout in that the shots are very findable and very satisfying. Munsters has got short code, so you get to Groundhog Day very quickly. I think Elvira, what they're going to do is they're going to make the shots gettable, but they're going to make the rules really deep and, I wouldn't say complicated, but sort of deep, and you can go many ways. So as a home player, you actually get to explore the game, and because it's got deep rules, that's going to hold your attention, not battling the pinball itself. Yeah. Yeah, at this point, code has got to be what makes almost any game, because as many people may criticize and go, oh, it's the same old fan layout that Stern always does. But listen, you have certain dimensions inside of a box. You can only do so many things with those. They start trying to do lower playfields or upper playfields. People complain about that. They try to bring some innovation. People complain about that. There's only so much you can do inside this box. So code is what kind of changes a Munsters to an Elvira to an Iron Man to a Metallica. The code is what makes those games a lot different. Obviously, it's well-schemed depending on what each person they gravitate towards. Yeah, and I feel that, like, with what they're doing, like, you're comparing those two machines, like you mentioned, like, the, you know, the pot of gold is very close, you know, as Dwight likes to talk about, it's very close to the start button, like, to get to that area where it starts getting repetitive, because you get to the wizard mode quickly, but, like, and I feel like it'll be, yeah, like you said, the exact opposite with Elvira is that it's going to be, yes, the game shoots easy, and it, although I still haven't played it, but the journey is going to be really long. That's how they're going to get away with that. There's going to be a ton of modes, and it's like, yeah, you can play it forever, but it's going to be the same equivalent of, yeah, you can play for much longer, but then we're going to take that same amount of time you would have been playing in anyways, and we're multiplying that so that it still runs off the roughly you'll still get to the end, and the same to go with how easy the game is. I mean, Dwight took a verbal beating between, you know, mostly, I guess, on Star Wars of being so deep and so, you know, convoluted and the average person couldn't figure out moving multipliers and, you know, all these different things that he went to the exact extreme to try to satisfy those people with monsters. And all he did was catch more shit than he caught probably even with Star Wars. Yeah, I feel bad for Dwight over that. Like, it's just no matter what he does, he just gets hammered for it. and I think that, like, all of his visions, they all have their place, and they're all valid, and they're all, like, monsters as a game is great for what it is, and games like that should exist. Like, the market is big enough where a location game like that that's geared towards, you know, novice players and stuff like that to get them to the special moment, you know, the people who seem to rail against stuff like that shouldn't exist. that stuff is completely valid, and it is okay to have one of those games, you know, once in a while, or, you know, once a year, because it's that, you know, there's a lot of people that I imagine that, you know, on location and stuff, they'll love that, love that about that game. They play that game, and they get to the, you know, Monster Madness and stuff, and they feel awesome about themselves. And, like, that's a great feeling that you're not going to get in a lot of games. Absolutely. The thing is, you've got to balance out the entire market. You're not selling pinball machines to just one sector of the world. You're selling it to different places, whether it's location, whether it's home, whether it's collectors, whether it's tournament players, whether it's whatever. You've got to balance that out. So that's why Sperry is always going to be successful, at least with their current model, because they can put out 10,000 games a year that fall into all those different categories. Whereas if Jersey Jack can only put out one game a year or one game every 18 months, and it's only a home market type of thing, there's only so many people, as many rich white guys as there may be buying pinball machines, there's only so many that can buy $12,000, $10,000 games. Yeah, and you don't see them out on location. No, because they can't afford them. And, you know, obviously with different issues with functionality is another problem as well. But, yeah, you can't have that many of them. And now Spooky is the same thing. If they're only going to put out one game every 18 months to two years, they were more in a better price point. Now they're starting to climb up a little bit, obviously, with Rick and Morty, but it's now gravitating towards a different end of the market. Yeah, and there's a lot of pressure there, too, because you also have to deal with the fact that, you know, if you're putting out this one game, then you have to, you know, you have to satisfy all of those markets to try and hit the perfect sweet spot to grab all of those markets where, like you mentioned, And, like, Stern's in the perfect position where they can just – the same game doesn't have to hit each market. So they have the entire year to just put it all together. Spooky's got the best model because they know what they need to keep their deal running. They have X amount of employees. They don't want to lose those employees. They don't want to have to lay them off for two months and bring them back and lay them off and bring them back. They have the exact rate of playing. For them, selling one game every 18 months, perfect. So then going back to you, Joe Fox, as the ultimate consumer, and I'm sort of positioning this because I think these companies really should be looking to you and saying, hey, Joe, we're going to do this. What do you think? Because you buy every machine. And the point I really want to make is the one thing that really stands out about 2019, obviously we've had a lot of games released this year, but one of the big things that's really come out has been Poolgate, right, with the pooling and the playfields. And I'm sure either you've come across it or you're obviously very aware of it because some of the machines that you own are aware of it. I'm wanting to know your view on that issue with PlayFuels. Whether you think it's a big deal, how you feel about, you know, machines that may have that issue in your collection, and how big do you think it is for you? So I have a little bit of OCD when it comes to my collection. I do, even though I have games from the late 70s and early 80s, my games from the late 70s and early 80s are pretty much as mint as possible can be. I mean, I just had a whirlwind that came back from a complete restore that is just absolutely drop-dead gorgeous. So that's the kind of collection I typically keep. My Pirates, the Jersey Jack Pirates, did have pooling around the post at the slings. I did get the kit that they sent me to put the washers on top of them, and I left the smaller, the skinnier posts on there. However, I can tell you that in the back of my head, I kept thinking to myself, hmm, you know what, under those washers is still a pooling play field. Did it affect gameplay? No. Did it affect ultimately saleability for me to sell the game? No. I sold it for more than what I bought it for. I held off on buying Wonka because of those issues, because they already were prevalent with pirates. And I was in on a collector's edition for Willy Wonka, so I had the time to sit back and wait and saw that it was happening and saw that it was happening. And I had a buddy who I helped unbox his LE, and he had pooling out of the box in the same exact spots. And I said, you know what, let me just hold back and let me just see how this all, you know, goes. And in the meantime of waiting that long, I kind of lost attention for it and said, you know what, you know, Robert, my friend has one and Dr. Mrs. Pinn have one and I can play it there. And you know what, maybe I'll just hold off on this one and see what happens. So it did affect my decision. It affected my decision to even keep pirates for that matter. And so it is something that does bother me. Now, you know, I was actually at Jack's factory right around that exact same time. And I sat down and I talked to Jack for about 20 minutes with all the hassle that was happening at the time and the disparaging, you know, people that were talking and trying to, you know, tell everyone not to even buy Jersey Jack's games and all that stuff. And I'll tell you, it was hitting him. You could tell just by talking to him that he was just mentally exhausted from the situation. And he wanted to fix it. He wanted to make it right, and he was working on doing it that way. And I think that's all but pretty much behind us from what I can hear. I don't hear people complaining about that anymore with new ones that they're unboxing or the CEs or any of that stuff. But does it still affect your view on new in-box machines? Do you still think that that is a factor, or do you think it's been done and the manufacturers have fixed it? No. I will tell you that the next game, the next game, yeah, I'll continue. to think about it. I hope that they fixed it, and I have the faith that they'll fix it, but I will tell you that I'll probably, even with the next one, let's just say it is guns and roses like everyone speculates, sit back on the sidelines a little bit and just see what happens, as opposed to being that first gun in line like I am with most of the Stern releases. So, yeah, it's definitely affected my mindset. And so, let's think about the future and 2020 and what we think is going to come out in 2020. Are there any sort of titles that you're excited about? I'll tell you, well, if next is Guns N' Roses, I'm very obviously well aware of Guns N' Roses. It was during the time that I was in high school, and that was kind of what was going on at the time. But I wasn't a huge Guns N' Roses fan, so I can't say I'm completely over the moon about Guns N' Roses. I'm more excited if Toy Story is up after that, and if that's real. I don't know that that will be 2020 with the pace that Jack usually runs. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for Stern, if that is next, I would say for me that is definitely in my wheelhouse for my theme. Again, same time frame where I was younger and maybe a little bit older for me, but I still was cognizant of it and played the Nintendo versions of the games and different things like that. And obviously now we don't have to speculate, but Stranger Things is the next Stern release, which again is something else that I can relate to and is probably on my short purchase list. Okay. So you're thinking of getting it? I am thinking, well, I'm very committed to get one tomorrow. If tomorrow is the day when they actually, or this is more Sunday night here in the States, but tomorrow will be Monday morning and see if that's what happens. And then Rick and Morty, I have a deposit on a Bloodsuckers edition as well. Okay. There you go. I don't know any more rumors that are circulating after that. Hot Wheels by American Pinball? Yeah, American Pinball is going to have to do something better than Hot Wheels, I think, for not only me but for a good bit of the marketplace, I think, to try to win them back over. I mean, the last two titles were definitely, you know, non-licensed themes. This is definitely a license, obviously, but I'm not sure that the toys I played with when I was 3, 4, 5, 6 years old is now bringing that much nostalgia to spend $7,000 or $8,000 US dollars on another game when they've had not a great history to begin with with themes. What about some of the other games that have been out but are either in the process of coming back out or rumored to come back out like Big Lebowski or Alien? There's been tons of rumors that Alien might be getting re-released by another company. Yeah, Alien for me is not. I mean, this is just me, obviously. Alien for me was never a big theme. I didn't get it whenever. And I played the Alien version of that. Jeez, I'm losing track now what the company was since they're gone. Highway, thank you. I played it at a show or two and wasn't super impressed as it had been. So if you add in theme and the gameplay to me, that would be a pass. Lebowski, I've only seen. I've never gotten to play. but theme wise, absolutely and looking, we've obviously all seen the game a hundred times even if it's in just pictures you know, the best in my opinion, the best correlation between theme under the glass type of, you know integration that I've seen ever probably, you know, even going back to the days, I just think they really nailed everything they could put into that game now, business, you know their business sense might be a whole other conversation but possibly, if they could iron out the problems and I can know that if I needed to fix it, I could get parts for it, you know, that's what hesitates me from even jumping on all the ones that came back over from ARA with the 12.5 was, okay, great, I can get one, but when it breaks in a week, who's going to fix it? You know, where are the parts coming from? Well, then thinking of probably back catalogs as well, if they were going to vault, CTC was going to go back to the Bally Williams era and let's say Stone was going to go to Eastback Catalog, what vault or remake would you like to see? Lord of the Rings That was going to be my answer even though I know that Joe is very high on that Lord of the Rings would definitely probably be the number one that I would think should be on their short list Tron, I think they would sell a ton of them but I had a Tron and you know, okay, it wasn't something I go, oh my God, thank God, Tron's coming back out. Lord of the Rings, I've had one. I borrowed it from a friend. Very, obviously, I think a longer playing game even for me, but never was able to really find a nice enough one that I would add at a reasonable cost. You know, they started rising. They're settling back down in the low fives, mid fives now. To me, you know, not for, you know, I forget how old that game was. What was it, 2006? What was it? Lord of the Rings made originally? In 2003 or something, wasn't it? I don't know. It was really early on. Yeah, I mean, you're talking about a 15-year-old game that's almost at the same price that a regular pro is now. So, yeah. Yep. So, yeah, I would think Lord of the Rings should be, if they were to do something that they've never done on a Sam, or I'm sorry, on a White Star System game, so I don't know if that's a technical issue that they can't get done or they don't want to get it done or they would have to convert it over to either Spike or Spike, you know, select two scenario or whatever they're coming out with next. But, yeah, I would say that from Chicago Gaming's point of view, for me, would be, and it's been mentioned as part of their rumored list, but it would be Theater of Magic. Even though they're competitive, I just, the Papaduke games, for me, will always have somehow, will always have a lasting impression in my mind and my heart. I've gotten rid of every single one that I've ever had, but I would take any of them back tomorrow, whether it be Circus Voltaire, whether it be Theater of Magic, whether it be World Cup Soccer, maybe not episode one, but, you know, those other ones just would always have a, yeah, yeah, exactly. Tales of the River Nights would always have a place in my collection. Speaking of J-Pop, what about some Deep Root games? So Deep Root for me, my mindset is this. You can talk all you want. I could have a, I could come out on Facebook or Pinside for the last two or three years and tell everybody that I'm making the greatest games that are ever going to be made, and that Steren sucks and this one sucks and everyone sucks. But until you show me something, I don't even believe that you're here. So, yes, they came out with the Raza prototype and people talked about it. And, you know, I know a couple of guys that were there and they played it. That does not, that from a theme perspective, that to me just kind of falls back into the American pinball realm of just unlicensed titles to make pinball games. And so I think in 2019, 2020, I don't think you can have an unlicensed game that's going to be overly successful. It's just the world we live in today. So I think they're going to have a struggle unless they have licensed teams. Well, there you go, manufacturers. Listen to Joe Fox, the ultimate consumer. He can tell you what to do. And I actually agree with everything that you've said. Absolutely, 100%. Especially the Lord of the Rings part. I mean, games that were made in the 70s and the 80s, you know, they were obviously 92% unlicensed games, and that's when pinball was in their heyday. Everyone was playing pinball to play pinball. Today, you need to jump up on the top of the building, scream, shoot off fireworks, and have things that people recognize and themes that people recognize, whether it be Star Wars. Even Munsters is still, in my opinion, better than, you know, retro atomic zombie land adventure or zombie adventure land. Like, it's just what? It's what? Like, nobody can even say it, let alone associate with it, especially people that are not pinball people that don't know, oh, this is a new deep root game with a play field that you can hit with a hammer and it won't, you know, divot or doesn't, they don't care. They don't care if the play field, you know, has divots in it because they're not buying them. Fair enough. There you go. Well, Joe Fox, thank you so much for coming on, and hope you have an amazing Christmas, and hopefully Joe and I get to see you in 2020. I'm sure you're going to be at the shows in Pimberg, I'm assuming. Absolutely. I can hear Joe. I think he's in my driveway now. Yeah, I'm already on the road, so I'm out. I appreciate you guys having me and inviting me on, and I appreciate what you guys do every week to entertain us guys, especially me, I have a long commute, so I welcome all the podcasts but especially you guys and absolutely have an amazing Merry Christmas and yeah, absolutely, I'll see you guys upcoming soon, hopefully. Awesome. Thanks, Sam. Alright, guys, have a good night. You too. Thanks. Bye-bye. Alright, so there we go. There were some people for the year and I think the summary is we had a good 2019. There's still a lot of hype for 2020 and I'm sure we will speculate and get it wrong, and we will speculate and we'll get it strangely accurate because we've been tipped off. Hmm. You can throw it away. Really? You just go throw it out there like that? Just like that. Wow. If only people had heard the conversation that came right before that conversation, you'd understand my reaction and his. Wow. All right. All right. Wow. It's like the criminal's name, like, Squirrel kicked it to nuts. Oh, my God. Got you. Got you looking over there. Never start coming. All right, so the last thing we've got to do, let's do the competition winners. So, just to remind everybody, so, as we said before, there's ten prizes, and we are going to do a random number. I'm not going to give you all the details. You just need to trust me that I am going to do a proper random number to a list of all the entries, and then you'll know who's won. And I'll call out what they are. What number am I? You didn't actually enter, did you? Well, because I thought I didn't have to. I mean, I did it in verbal sense, so, I mean, doesn't that count? Yeah. Possibly. so what we've got is we've got the Universal Monsters pack for Williams Pinball this is for Pinball FX from Zen Studios so we've got three of those to give as we've got a Beard and Blade voucher Loser Kid Cap two head-to-head t-shirts a head-to-head hoodie Attack from Mars alternate trans light from Flylane Designs that's Brian Allen and then we've got Pin Stadiums courtesy of Scott from Pin Stadium so thanks to everybody let's do Let's see how this goes. I don't even have a head-to-head hoodie, so, I mean, there's some good shit in there. Oh, you got a whole stack of swag when you first came on board. It's true. But was there a hoodie? Yeah, but who else has got a head-to-head apron? That's what I was just about to say. Damn it. Dude, like, get out of my fucking head. Yeah. All right. We meshed very well. It's creepy. I know. All right. So the first one is, I'll tell you who's won, is Stephen D has won the Williams. Yeah, well done. Is that Daniels? I'm not saying who the surnames are because people might want to, you know, people might just go, oh, dude, give me that. I'm going to buy that off you. So anyway, Stephen D, you have got one of the Williams pinball from Pinball FX, Zen Pinball. So far, I might know one person. Yeah, the next person Adam K Oh, might know him too Cheers So, next one This is for another one of these keys that we will send to you Is Daniel J Don't know that one I do He's from Australia Oh, see, she's sprinkling it around so far. I think we might have a Vermont person, a Canadian person, and now Australia. See, we take care of everybody. I'll laugh if I'm wrong, too. That'd be hilarious. I don't think you are right. Yeah. But those people, they'd appreciate it, maybe. Yeah, they probably would. They know who I'm talking about. Then I could just go, ha ha, I was just kidding. I didn't know. I'll have to master your list He doesn't share this shit with me No, I don't I've just spent like literally all day Putting these together, so Yeah, but I mean Because, I mean, you didn't have anything to do today So, you know Well, that is also true Okay, so here we are We're going to give away the Beardandblade.com.au voucher Worth $50 Which is pretty amazing Yeah, I know So, the person that gets this is Chris K. Chris K. Well done. Don't know that one either, I don't think. You probably do. I'm just, you know. Yeah. Yeah. The best part is going to be getting yelled at for me not realizing these things. I know. So, the loser kid cap. I'm just telling you guys, this is not rigged. and this is just how random this is. Because don't forget, you could actually enter if you were a patron subscriber. You would actually get double entries. And you had, at a minimum, the opportunity for two entries because we had the machine that we thought was going to win the trippy and then we've got the worst game of the year, which was Black Knight, by the way, just letting you know. Only because people didn't play Cosmic Carnival. Well, Cosmic Carnival came second, a very close second. But the next prize was for the Loser Kid cap, and it also goes to Chris K. I've got to figure out who this Chris K is. Chris K, you have got two prizes, which means I don't think you can get any more. But, you know, we'll see how we go. So the next one is for a head-to-head T-shirt, and that goes to... Me, me, me. No, you're not. Michael H. Mm-hmm. Michael H. Yep. Mittig. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What? I know this person. Watches the stream. Oh. Excellent. Yeah. I'd watch the stream if it wasn't two in the morning. Yeah, well, that's true. And then you put it up on YouTube so I could watch it. Yeah. And so the next person that also wins a T-shirt is Tony J. So they'll know who they are. Excellent. So, now we got to the hoodie, and the hoodie goes to... Come on, come on, come on. It's like the one hoodie I don't own. Steve F. Steve F. F. Steve F. Really? With F and hoodie together, that was... Peppy. I don't know. The perfect name. Steve F. You've got the hoodie. Next one is the Attack from Mars Translight. You ready for it? Extra points if you actually own an attack from Mars. Here we go. Kevin P. Kevin P. I will be emailing you straight away. And now we've got the big prize being the pin stadium, set of pin stadiums. Here we go. It is for... Skype. Glenn W. And I'm saying Glenn W. Glenn W knows who they are