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Ep 159: Lyman's Legacy with Penni Epstein, Roger, Josh, and Zach Sharpe

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·56m 58s·analyzed·Jan 28, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Tribute podcast celebrating legendary designer Lyman F. Sheats Jr.' life, games, and impact on pinball.

Summary

A tribute episode of the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast honoring Lyman F. Sheats Jr., a legendary pinball designer and competitive player. Hosted by Josh Roop and Scott Larson with guests Roger Sharpe (Lyman's mentor), Zach Sharpe and Josh Sharp (younger proteges who worked with him at Stern), and Penni Epstein (Lyman's long-time partner). The conversation celebrates Lyman's impact on pinball through his iconic game designs (Medieval Madness, Monster Bash, Attack from Mars, The Walking Dead, etc.), his revolutionary competitive playing style, his mentorship of younger players, and his meticulous design philosophy centered on player experience and continuous improvement.

Key Claims

  • Lyman designed or significantly contributed to Monster Bash, Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, The Walking Dead, ACDC, Batman (original), Elvira, and other iconic games spanning 30+ years in the industry

    high confidence · Multiple speakers (Josh, Zach, Roger, Penni) reference specific games throughout the episode; Josh Roop mentions 'four Lyman coded games' behind him

  • Lyman and Josh Sharpe were working on a Monster Bash update and a Cactus Canyon code update with Chicago Gaming before Lyman's death

    high confidence · Josh Sharpe explains the original project was Monster Bash, then they pivoted to help Chicago Gaming with Cactus Canyon at Doug's (presumed Doug Duva) request

  • Lyman pioneered modern competitive pinball playing techniques including crouch stance, flipper manipulation, ball control, and precision shot execution

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe witnessed Lyman playing Surf 'n Safari with innovative techniques; Josh and Zach describe learning flipper tricks and shot sequencing from him

  • Lyman had a 15-year romantic relationship with Penni Epstein after approximately 10-15 years of friendship

    high confidence · Penni Epstein states anniversary date is '07 (2007), making the relationship ~15 years, with 10-15 years of friendship prior

  • Josh Sharpe won his first major tournament victory at a Carlisle, Pennsylvania event he organized with Steve Epstein, and Lyman was the first person to call and congratulate him

    high confidence · Josh Sharpe recounts driving to airport after winning his first breakthrough tournament when Lyman called to congratulate him

  • Lyman was known for perfectionism, high standards, occasional feistiness/pettiness, and an unwillingness to compromise on game quality even if it meant missing deadlines

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe: 'he was a very focused individual... if it took an extra day, two, week, in some cases months or years to get it right'; Josh Sharpe mentions Lyman stewing over games like Spider-Man for years; Penni mentions he could be 'feisty' and occasionally needed to apologize

  • Roger Sharpe encouraged Lyman to leave MITRE (his prior employer) to pursue pinball design professionally, and initially connected him with Larry DeMar at Williams, but when Larry thought Lyman wasn't ready, Roger facilitated a move to Data East before eventually bringing him to Williams/Stern

Notable Quotes

  • “He just opened up my eyes to what you could really accomplish, not just from like an aiming perspective, but just manipulating the ball and doing post-pass and all the other flipper lingo things that he legitimately was my sensei when it came to competitive pinball.”

    Josh Sharpe @ ~middle section — Describes Lyman's foundational impact on teaching modern competitive pinball technique to the younger generation

  • “I think that Lyman is one who, you know, long after I'm gone, he is still going to be the penultimate that people will measure everybody else by.”

    Roger Sharpe @ ~late section — Roger Sharp's assessment of Lyman's lasting legacy and influence on the industry

  • “For the payoff to be as awesome as you want it to be, the pain has to hurt. And some people are afraid to really make something hurt when you don't execute. and Lyman was not afraid of that.”

    Josh Sharpe @ ~later section — Articulates Lyman's design philosophy regarding risk-reward and difficulty balance in games

  • “I think your windows are dirty... maybe you should see when was the last time you cleaned your windows”

    Lyman F. Sheats Jr. @ ~early section — Penni's intimate memory of Lyman surprising her on Valentine's Day by showing up outside her New York apartment

  • “And he was the first person to call and congratulate me and he was like like a proud coach of you know his his student you know mastering and finally winning something”

    Josh Sharpe @ ~middle section — Demonstrates Lyman's mentorship character and genuine care for the people he worked with

  • “He was like, why did you hit that? I was like, what do you mean? Why did I hit that? He's like, nobody's going to play that game that way, you know?”

    [name withheld pending review] @ ~later section — Example of Lyman's obsessive attention to player experience and playstyle during code development

  • “Whatever had to be done to make the game better always interested him. And if an idea came later that made the game better, and he was allowed to put it in or found a way to put it in.”

Entities

Lyman F. Sheats Jr.personJosh SharpepersonZach SharpepersonRoger Sharpeperson[name withheld pending review]personJosh Roopperson

Signals

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Lyman Sheets' 30+ year career spanning Data East, Williams, and Stern as designer and his revolutionary impact on competitive pinball; mentorship of next generation (Josh and Zach Sharp); ongoing influence through games still in active play and continued development of his unfinished projects

    high · Multiple speakers confirm span of career, games designed, and current projects in development; Roger Sharp's statement: 'long after I'm gone, he is still going to be the penultimate that people will measure everybody else by'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Lyman's design approach centered on creating challenging, high-stakes gameplay with meaningful risk-reward dynamics rather than broad accessibility; willingness to make failure painful to amplify success endorphin payoff

    high · Josh Sharpe: 'For the payoff to be as awesome as you want it to be, the pain has to hurt.' Discussion of Walking Dead's frustrating difficulty as feature not bug. Anecdote about Cactus feature built so high that failing made Josh want to 'punch a hole in my garage wall'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Lyman pursued continuous improvement of games post-release, sometimes years after initial launch, including adding features to ROM updates if he thought they made games better; unwilling to compromise on quality even if it meant missing deadlines

    high · Josh Sharpe: 'he would stew on it after years... he never hesitated to make a change.' Roger Sharp: 'if it took an extra day, two, week, in some cases months or years to get it right.' Attack from Mars ROM update 30 years after release mentioned.

  • ?

    community_signal: Lyman Sheets universally respected and beloved across pinball community; no documented negative sentiments or public disputes; known for high expectations but tempered by genuine care for people he worked with

    high · Josh Roop: 'I've never heard an ill thing said about Lyman.' Penni: 'He could be feisty... but it all came from his passion.' Multiple speakers emphasize his mentorship care and support.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.171

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We are excited to be on episode 159. With me, my co-captain as always, Scott Larson. I am Josh Roop, and we have a very special episode today. So we're going to kind of keep the introductions to a minimum, because we really kind of just want to jump right in. We want to give quick thanks to Zach and Nicole Menny for their sponsorship for Flippin' Out Pinball. and making this all possible for Loser Kid and doing episodes like this. Scott, I'm going to kick over to you. Why don't you give us a little introduction of who's all joining us today? Sure. Well, let's give an overview of what we're trying to do with this.
0:44
This is an episode to honor Lyman Sheets. And we gathered together a lot of people who had connections with Lyman through many ways. and the impact that he had on their lives and also the things that he accomplished in pinball. And so I definitely want this to be more of a celebration of memories and celebration of everything that he left to share with us. And so today we invited Roger Sharp, Zach Sharp, and Josh Sharp on and in a very special welcome to Penny Epstein, who was his significant other. And so we appreciate all of you coming on to being able to share your memories of Lyman and to give us a view of him that many of us didn't know. Because most of us honor him through playing his games. If you look behind me, I have four Lyman coded games right behind me. And so, you know, how about we start by Penny, can you give us one of your favorite memories of Lyman? and what Lyman brought to your life.
1:57
All right. I will try not to cue the tears yet. It's really hard to just pick one memory of him. I guess here's something that's really special that not many people know, and it's not completely pinball related. I was living in New York at the time. He was in Chicago and both of us didn't want to leave our respective cities. And it happened to be Valentine's Day. And, you know, I couldn't get in touch with him. He was in meetings all day, this, that, whatever. Long story short, he calls me at around like seven o'clock at night. And I was like, oh, big day with meetings. He's like, yeah, what are you doing? I was like, sitting on the couch, you know, like that's all I'm doing. And he's like, I think your windows are dirty. I was like, what? what are you talking about and I'm like what's going on he's like maybe you should see when was the last time you cleaned your windows and I went to my window and he was downstairs of my apartment with flowers things whatever and he just it was wonderful but his plane got so delayed it was insane and he had to fly out in the morning so and it was it was kind of spectacular my former boss was like, could I use that story? That's a really good one. So there's a really soft, sweet side to him that was very special. That's quite intimate. Thank you so much for sharing that.

high confidence · Roger Sharpe: 'I encouraged him to leave MITRE... one of the first people he met with was Larry DeMar. Larry DeMar just didn't think that he was ready yet. So through whatever avenues that I had, he wound up landing over at Data East... eventually wound up coming back what I always thought was home base'

  • Lyman worked on slot machines at some point in his career before returning to pinball

    medium confidence · Roger Sharpe mentions 'I can attest to that not only with pinball but with slot machines when he moved into that for a while before he shifted gears again'

  • Josh Sharpe is actively working on unfinished pinball projects that he and Lyman were developing together, with hopes more will surface in the future

    high confidence · Josh Sharpe: 'I'm still actively working on projects that him and I were working on... I'm hopeful that more things that we were planning on doing will will still find a way to surface'

  • Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, and Monster Bash are among the highest-value games in the secondary market, while Cactus Canyon is rarer and sells ungodly amounts despite originally being underfinished

    medium confidence · Josh Sharpe discussing Chicago Gaming Company priorities: 'when you sort games by market value... medieval is great, and attack is great, and monster bash is great, and then you get to cactus, and you realize, oh, it was rare... to sell the kind of volume that they really needed to sell you actually have to have a good product'

    • Josh Sharpe @ ~middle section — Highlights Lyman's relentless pursuit of game quality even years after initial release

  • “I was like, come on down.”

    Lyman F. Sheats Jr. @ ~middle section — Lyman's response when Penni called to tell him she lost her job and could move to Chicago; shows his support and commitment

  • “It's so hard. You know, it's really hard. But the fact that it's really hard means that, like, it's that kind of game that I can enjoy because it can beat me up. And when I get a hold of it, I feel really good about it.”

    Josh Sharpe @ ~later section — Explains why The Walking Dead is valued despite (or because of) its difficulty; reflects Lyman's design intent

  • “I've never heard an ill thing said about Lyman. That goes to say something about his character.”

    Josh Roop @ ~mid-late section — Summarizes the universal respect and affection for Lyman across the community

    • Scott Larsonperson
    Zach Sharpe (Flippin' Out Pinball operator)person
    Steve Epsteinperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Chicago Gamingcompany
    Williamscompany
    Data Eastcompany
    MITREcompany
    Loser Kid Pinball Podcastorganization
    Monster Bashgame
    Medieval Madnessgame
    Attack from Marsgame
    The Walking Deadgame
    Cactus Canyongame
    Doug Duvaperson
    Larry DeMarperson
    Leonardperson
    Rick Stettaperson
  • ?

    competitive_signal: Lyman pioneered modern competitive pinball playing techniques (crouch stance, flipper manipulation, ball control, shot isolation) that became standard; transformed how pinball is played competitively

    high · Roger Sharp witnessing Lyman's revolutionary Surfing Safari play with crouch and shoe removal. Josh/Zach learning flipper tricks and post-pass from him. Josh wearing socks while playing because Lyman did.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Josh Sharpe continuing work on incomplete pinball projects he and Lyman were developing together; hopeful more finished products will surface in coming years

    high · Josh Sharpe: 'I'm still actively working on projects that him and I were working on... I'm hopeful that more things that we were planning on doing will will still find a way to surface.' Medieval update mentioned as 'ready to go on paper.'

  • ?

    code_update: Monster Bash update project that Lyman and Josh Sharpe had planned, later put on hold when they agreed to help Chicago Gaming with Cactus Canyon code improvement

    high · Josh Sharpe: 'the project that we had signed up to do together was actually a Monster Mash update... we put Monster Bash on hold... because Chicago Gaming had their own team that was doing the Cactus update.'

  • ?

    code_update: Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharpe worked with Chicago Gaming to improve Cactus Canyon code, which was originally rushed/underfinished at end of Williams era. Brainstorming sessions constrained by fixed playfield but aiming for rule set improvements

    high · Josh Sharpe detailed discussion: 'when you start peeling back the layers of Cactus Canyon, the original, and you realize like how not good and not finished it is... we did not think about Monster Bash while... Cactus was in development.'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Reference to Cactus Canyon as product of declining Williams era at end of company's lifespan, representing rushed development timelines and unfinished work typical of industry crisis period

    medium · Josh Sharpe: 'Cactus Canyon, was done very quickly. It was the end of an era and it never got the legs that it needed to.'

  • $

    market_signal: Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, and Monster Bash rank among highest-value/most-desirable games in secondary market; Cactus Canyon rarer but historically undervalued due to original quality issues, though volume sales are ungodly

    medium · Josh Sharpe: 'when you sort games by market value... medieval is great, and attack is great, and monster bash is great, and then you get to cactus, and you realize, oh, it was rare... to sell the kind of volume that they really needed to sell you actually have to have a good product'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community recognizing Lyman's games as foundational to modern pinball; games continue to appreciate in value and demand; his design philosophy and techniques becoming standard industry practice

    high · Josh Roop: 'these games made you think about pinball in a different light and put modern pinball where it is today... I've never heard an ill thing said about Lyman.' Roger Sharp's assessment of lasting influence.

    • 3:26
    You know, maybe we can continue with this and go around and we'll ask Roger the same question. Can you give me one of your favorite memories of Lyman and what type of impact he had on your relationship?
    3:45
    I guess I'll go back to the beginning when I first saw this intrepid pinball player who was teamed up with Leonard for doubles. I want to say that it was Papa 2, maybe, or 3. Josh or Zach may remember it better than I do, but the game that totally mesmerized me was watching Lyman play Surfing Safari.
    4:14
    And for those who don't know the game, I won't get into the depth and breadth of the rule set or whatever else, But, you know, the star of that particular event at the time was Rick Stetta, who had captured a lot of people's hearts and minds when it came to pinball championships.
    4:33
    But here was Lyman in his socks. He'd taken off his shoes. He had done his crouch. He was down low on the game. I had never seen anything like this. And I was just standing there amazed. the whole approach to pinball playing now has transformed but back then what i witnessed with lyman and calling over my my late dear friend steven epstein to say who who is this what what's going on over here surf and safari had a particular double feature and again i don't want to get into too much of the weeds with it but there's a sequence of shots and Lyman effectively did I think it was six shots or seven in a row that he needs to do to light double and both Stephen and I just stood there amazed at number one the discipline the concentration and really the skill to be able to isolate. This is what I'm going to do on this game, and this is where it's going to go. And he went on to put up an incredible score. And it really had an influence and an impact on me because I didn't know this person. I had never seen anybody play pinball like that. And I guess in terms of age difference and being the old person that I am, I always thought of myself being a little bit more paternal in regard to Lyman. And there was a tournament that followed at the O'Hare Hilton, which was the very first tournament for the IFPA.
    6:18
    And Lyman was playing with Leonard. And they were playing on, I want to say it had to be getaway. and Lyman put up some ridiculous score and maybe Penny will appreciate what I'm going to share with everybody because it really is the quintessential Lyman in terms of his personality and he walked away after I mean it was phenomenal and I was like what? I missed a shot that I wanted and it's like are you kidding me? You've already surpassed everybody else on ball one. Nobody's going to get even close to you. Stop it. Just relax and take it easy. But that was Lyman. Lyman was a very focused individual on anything that he did. I won't call him a complete perfectionist, but in all the times that I ever interfaced, worked with him, encouraged him to leave MITRE way back when to make the career change and taking on that responsibility, if you will, of overseeing his career.
    7:26
    Yeah, I mean, I loved him. I really did. Very special. Josh and Zach, you two were kind of younger when you met Lyman, right? How did that start out? Sure.
    7:38
    And then I guess I can go into, it's kind of a combo, but I always kind of say Lyman was, not to speak for both of us, but he was our slash my pinball Yoda, my Obi-Wan, because he was truly the first person. And, you know, we played pinball growing up. We were always good against our friends and not really knowing some of the kind of nuance and flipper tricks. And I remember watching Lyman play, and I think it was Adam's family in particular, where the ball would kick out of the chair and he did nothing. And the ball just bounced over and he cradled. And I mean, I'm sure at the time it's like seaball, hit ball. But I recognized that he was doing all these kind of voodoo tricks with the flippers and ball control. And it just opened up my eyes to what you could really accomplish, not just from like an aiming perspective, but just manipulating the ball and doing post-pass and all the other flipper lingo things that he legitimately was my sensei when it came to competitive pinball.
    8:58
    And what's really cool, and this is just not a humble brag story, but notoriously when I advanced from the juniors division where I had much success, when I had to play in adult divisions, I did not have as much success. And I kept making finals, never breaking through and winning an adult division tournament. And I remember I went out to, not to pull a segue, not to be long-winded like my father, but it was a tournament that I helped organize and run with Steve Epstein out in Carlisle. Pennsylvania. And it was the first kind of big tournament of trying to generate some good prize funds. And I made the finals and it was my first victory. And this is pre-social media. So on my drive home from the tournament, which I was extremely thrilled about because it was my first kind of like breakthrough, like, yes, I finally won, you know, my first big tournament. I'm driving to the airport and my phone starts ringing it's Lyman and he was the first person to congratulate me I don't know how he found out that I won because again this wasn't like oh somebody's doing a live stream like he might have found out from Steve he could have found out from Bowen I have no idea in fact I never even asked in the moment because I was driving to drop off a rental car but he was the first person to call and congratulate me and he was like like a proud coach of you know his his student you know mastering and finally winning something so that was truly special and like i said it just kind of shows like the person that he was that you know he cared so deeply about like everyone that he interacted with I feel like I want to make a joke about well if Lyman was your sensei is that how you started taking first and Josh always took second oh come on I thought this was somber you know what it tees up Josh I don't want to speak on a memory for you but the Mayday trip oh yeah I mean that was a fun Zach and I finished first and second at that tournament not the way that you expect I think we uh like for me I know a bunch of what Zach said in terms of Lyman you know being this pinball Yoda like he was definitely like my competitive pinball hero and I used to play in my socks because Lyman played in his socks and I used to hunch over the game because Lyman hunched over the game I just you know when you see someone who transformed the sport that much, you know, as a teenager, it's like, you know, all the kids that are pretending they're Michael Jordan while they're shooting baskets in their front yard. And what was so great in our universe was like, he was a real person that, that I got to know very well. And even I'm, I'm sure that now as, as a dad myself, You know, there were various people that Zach and I both formed, you know, friendships with, and that may be, you know, a little weird for teenagers and, you know, I mean, early 20s, you're kind of an adult, but like 15, 16, 17 year old kids hanging out with people that are older. and being able to develop a friendship with Lyman over those years and remember coming home from college and having play sessions in his basement and just hanging out and talking trash about certain players and making fun of certain games. Just all the stuff that is just really the BSing of a friendship through pinball that obviously stayed its course. I used to visit him when he was doing, you know, game designs at Stern. I would pop over there and see how it's going and just sit on the couch in his office and just chat. You know, chat about the game, chat about life, chat about Penny. And it's really, it's all good things, Penny. Don't worry about it. Like, but just, you know, one of those true friendships that I was fortunate enough to have because of pinball. And then, you know, I sort of was able to enjoy a second life with him in our business partnership that, you know, watching him in terms of how he went through his process of game development, you know, is outside of his playing skills, just seeing the wonderment of, you know, his brilliance of, I mean, you see it now with his appreciation for his games that are still selling. there was a rhyme and a reason for the things he did and getting to learn the whys and the don do that for the and the you know for him he was so nice when whenever i would suggest something i knew it was bad if i just heard that like there was just a pause you know i'd share with an idea and he's so nice he wouldn't want to trash on my idea and it'd just be like long pause and i could tell he tried to figure out like the nice way to explain to be why my idea is dumb and and you know that was the best because it was a way for me to learn you know oh this is why this doesn't work and be able to apply that for the other things that i'm now doing and sort of finishing up you know the projects that have yet to come to light that him and i were working on and that's sort of you know after his death you know like the I think about him literally every day because I'm still actively working on projects that him and I were working on. And, you know, we'll see as as time moves forward. But I'm hopeful that more things that we were planning on doing will will still find a way to surface. And it'll allow me to stay connected with him for years to come. well and i think i think you've all kind of hit it on the head the nail on the head is is you know we feel a connection through these games when we play them because he redefined pinball i mean looking at the list i mean you know just medieval madness attack from mars monster bash i mean one of the games that ooted and awed me was revenge for mars that's what sucked me into the hobby it was like this is innovation at its best and granted it was 15 years after it had been released. Just these games made you think about pinball in a different light and put modern pinball where it is today.
    16:07
    I know a lot of people that have a love... I've never heard an ill thing said about Lyman. That goes to say something about his character.
    16:17
    He's done an awesome job to impact all of our lives. He could be feisty. Petty used to have to get him to apologize to me on multiple occasions over the years for, you know, maybe taking things in certain directions. But it's like, you know, it all came from his passion and wanting things to be done at a very, you know, he had high expectations for anyone he worked with because he set the highest expectations for himself. And he would always apologize when maybe he did step over the line professionally here or there. well and can you talk to me more about so you've talked about how he took his job very very seriously and how um these games that he worked on i i've heard in the past a lot of how you know he'd finish a game like spider-man and he just didn't feel like he had enough time and he would stew on it after years um can you kind of speak to that as well maybe i mean i can a little bit I mean, ultimately, he is also a player, right? So, I mean, he enjoyed playing games, and he didn't enjoy watching people not play games in the way that he wanted them to be played. So he never hesitated to make a change, you know, to make the game better. Whatever had to be done to make the game better always interested him. And if an idea came later that made the game better, and he was allowed to put it in or found a way to put it in. I think you see that even with, you know, home releases of Attack from Mars from way back in the day that Williams wasn't selling the game anymore. They didn't do, you know, post-ROM updates for fun, but he found a way for a home update to add things that he found made the game better. So I feel like that was 30 years of him sort of having that attitude. Yeah, it was always difficult in terms of the deadlines and needing to get things ready for production on the games that he worked on during his time at Williams Valley. I know that when I encouraged him to go to Chicago, one of the first people he met with was Larry DeMar. And Larry just didn't think that he was ready yet. So through whatever avenues that I had, he wound up landing over at Data East to kind of start his career and then eventually wound up coming back what I always thought was home base in terms of where I wanted him to be just given the opportunity and being able to work with some of the folks that we had internally and I think that the part that stands out for me is that there are many individuals in our lives that we wind up following, knowing, who somewhat transcend their time on the planet.
    19:20
    Some of them are professional athletes or politicians or whatever who live long after they were viable. And others who wind up over a period of time fading away. I think that Lyman has been one of those unique individuals who will never, ever fade from view through the games, through the legends of what he accomplished, through the experiences that all of us have. good, bad, and indifferently when we're playing any of his games, being frustrated, being challenged, really enjoying the experience that this unique individual has carved out for us. And I think that, you know, look, now that I'm old and have been around for multiple generations, in all honesty, multiple generations of individuals who shaped the entire coin-operated amusement game industry, let alone pinball. I think that Lyman is one who, you know, long after I'm gone, he is still going to be the penultimate that people will measure everybody else by. And I think that it is because of his commitment, his passion, his unwavering obstinance as to knowing what was going to be right, what was going to be worthwhile. And if it took an extra day, two, week, in some cases months or years to get it right. He was going to do what he thought was going to be best and it wasn't out of ego. It wasn't like he was doing it just to surpass himself or to prove a point. He did it because he believed in every single project that he worked on and I can attest to that not only with pinball but with slot machines when he moved into that for a while before he shifted gears again.
    21:20
    Truly just a miraculous, wonderful person that I am enriched in my life for having had him in my life.
    21:30
    Now, Penny, I don't know, how did you meet Lyman? And how did your relationship start? And can you talk a little bit about that? Can we go back like 20 plus years ago, 25 years ago? You can go back as long as you want. Does that date me? I don't know. You're 23, right? Of course. We were let's see. I was part of an IRC Internet relay chat, which had like a bunch of pinball nerves and some of the industry folks on there as well. And we would just like chat, talk, whatever. And there would be, you know, we'd get together during Expo or something and we'd all have a dinner or we do. We would just hang out. And I don't know when this transition happened, but he and I were friends for at least 10 or 12 years, even before we started dating. We both knew how crazy each other were, and we knew that we could work with that.
    22:29
    And I don't know, one day he used to have an expo party every Sunday. And he's like, hey, are you going to come to my party? And I was like, I always roomed with my friend Therese. We were like pinball roommates. And I said, well, Teresa and I would just need some place to stay. He's like, oh, you can stay at my house. We're like, OK. So Teresa and I stayed at the house. We had this party, whatever. It was a really good time. And the next day he was driving us to the airport. Teresa lives in Ohio. I was in New York. We get out of the car. Teresa runs and just leaves me there with Lyman. So we're just talking. And, you know, he's he's Lyman. And I was like, OK, this is great. Thank you so much for letting us stay, blah, blah, blah. And the awkward hug came in, you know, and I was like, okay, great. This is cool. And I was like, he's like, let me know when you land, yada, yada, yada. I get home. The next day at work, I get an enormous bouquet of flowers. And I was like, okay. And it said, let me know when I can see you again. No signature. so I was like okay and I assumed maybe it was him I also did not have my cell phone with me that day and it was kind of a funny story and then I called him later that evening and he was like I was like were these flowers from you this was so great wonderful and he was like panicked all day that like it was the wrong thing to do the wrong message whatever and it starts you know took off from there, I think we went to, I guess it was a papa at the old building that Kevin had in Pittsburgh. And we were like talking, hanging out, flying back and forth, but we were like keeping it on the down low because we were like, is this even going to work? And, um, that's how it started.
    24:25
    Wow. That's actually great. How, how long did you guys have time? How long did you guys have together like dating together whatever yeah was it 15 years wow wait i have to i have the date of our anniversary on here oh wow that's awesome and my eyes aren't that good it was 07 and i'm not good at math so and that's when it was like 15 years yep but we were probably friends for like at least 10 or 15 years prior. Wow. Until you made the move out here.
    25:01
    Yeah, he convinced me. Yep. And so did my employer. Oh, wow. We were like, whoever gets laid off first is going to move.
    25:13
    And that was me. And you lost the bet, huh? I called him from my office and I was like, hey, he's like, what's going on? I was like, does that offer still stand? And he paused.
    25:23
    And he's like, did you just get fired? I was like, yeah. He's like, come on down. Wow. That's in many ways, it's horrible news, but good news. Yeah, because it's like, wow. OK, so let's do this. Never, ever thought I'd leave New York. No. All right. And are you in Chicago now? I guess I don't know where you live now. I'm in good old northwest burbs of Illinois in our house. Josh, can you talk a little bit more? We talked briefly about it. The whole, hey, let's revisit some of these classic games that feel, they're amazing games, but when you compare the rule sets of a 90s game, it doesn't really stack up the depth of what is offered today, and mainly because of the limitations back then. You either had memory limitations or people weren't putting them. If you weren't Roger Sharp's kids, you weren't going to have pinball machines in your house. but now I have pinball machines in my house. So you want something that's going to have longevity and looking at some of these games, even though they are amazing to, to people who are really into pinball, you need to extend that rule set to match up with current ones. So how did that idea come about that?
    26:43
    You know, we it's been announced that the pro one of the projects you were working on was cactus Canyon because it's, it's notorious, the cactus Canyon, was done very quickly. It was the end of an era and it never got the legs that it needed to. And so for you guys to take on this project to say, how can we finish this up and also take it to a next level? How did those discussions start?
    27:09
    So I think most people don't know, but the project that we had signed up to do together was actually a Monster Mash update. That was the deal. And because Chicago Gaming had their own team that was doing the Cactus update.
    27:26
    And I think, you know, when you start peeling back the layers of Cactus Canyon, the original, and you realize like how not good and not finished it is. There came a time where I think Doug had asked Lyman, hey, can we, because we were already rolling on Monster Bash ideas. And Doug had asked if we would be willing to look over what, you know, the Chicago Gaming team was doing for Cactus and see if there was anything else we could think of to help make the game great. Because, you know, when I think the Chicago Gaming team, and I've poked Mr. Duva on this over the years, you know, when you sort games by market value, You start at the top, and medieval is great, and attack is great, and monster bash is great, and then you get to cactus, and you realize, oh, it was rare. That why it sells rare ungodly amounts And to sell the kind of volume that they really needed to sell you actually have to have a good product So, you know, Lyman and I talked about it, and, you know, we're both, like, fans of pinball. So the opportunity to get to have a brainstorming session and see if there was anything that we thought was there, you know, with sort of the limitations of, you know, I can remember Lyman asked, like, did you guys run the play fields or can we change anything? It's like, no, we're done. The play fields are done. It's like, okay. Well, you know, you start, man, it'd be nice if we could change this one thing. Well, we can't. They were, you know, they were already well down the tracks. And, you know, the opportunity presented to us was to jump in and help that project out. And we just enjoyed the process. So for us, we put Monster Bash on hold. But I think anyone that works in pinball development, you know, what is putting on hold, my air quotes in the dark while driving, but like putting something on hold, you end up thinking about this stuff all the time. And so, you know, we did not think about Monster Bash while, you know, Cactus was in development. We had a medieval update, you know, on paper that's ready to go. So I think, and he was helping me with stuff, you know, outside of Chicago Gaming directly on new products, that, you know, we were also working on that stuff. So I think, you know, adding Cactus to the plate was not a big deal for us because we just enjoyed, you know, talking pinball and talking about what makes great games and how you can tell great stories through a steel ball slamming into random crap on a piece of wood. And, you know, that brought us both a lot of joy. So, you know, the ability to do that specifically with some Williams games that you know have a charm that speaks to everyone. Like, I saw a long process of us, you know, doing this for all sorts of games that weren't even on the list yet. If ideas presented itself, that could make the game good, better. Well, speaking of these games, there is a ton of games that Lyman worked on. I mean, he was in the industry for 30 plus years. Is there a game that sticks out to you that's one of your favorite lineman games? Can we start with Zach?
    30:52
    Yeah. I mean, I was fortunate to have him as a co-worker for, you know, a few years here at Stern. And it was really cool to see him in his element, not on the outside. because growing up, we would talk with him and bounce ideas off of him when he was working on Walking Dead, ACDC, the original Batman. But it was kind of cool to be in his office full days with Elvira and Batman 66. But if I had to say what my favorite Lyman game is, it's probably The Walking Dead. I think everything with the risk-reward and just some of the ideas that he executed on and how that game kind of developed and took shape, that's probably my personal favorite. No doubt. What about you, Josh? What game stands out? It's Walking Dead. It's just the pinnacle of it. I think for good players, the game is, I would insert a word that you'd have to beep anyway, so I won't bother. but it's a really challenging game. And a lot of people don't like it. Yeah, that's how I play it, by the way. It's so hard. You know, it's really hard. But the fact that it's really hard means that, like, it's that kind of game that I can enjoy because it can beat me up. And when I get a hold of it, I feel really good about it. And the things that he put, you know, into that game, like Zach mentioned, the risk-reward of choosing when to do things, you know, there's nothing better than trying to do something and failing and really just wanting to, like, shatter the playfield glass in anger. You know, there's something to, we went through that in the Cactus development when he had built something up so high. We used to, and Penny used to come over for this, we used to once a week come over and we would play the latest code and Lyman would have his little notebook and write down, you know, whatever bugs he may have seen or whatever features he thought, you know, could be better, different. And, you know, he had built this feature up so high in a game that we were playing as each other and drained and, like, wanted to punch a hole in my garage wall because it was so frustrating to have done all that work and then get nothing for it. And it's like the next day, he's like, yeah, no, we totally have this right. Like, you know, being able to get to that point of frustration, and then you know if you're able to consummate that moment, the payoff of it is just, you know, the endorphin rush of being able to succeed only comes with the pain that comes when you fail. And I think he was the master at it. I'll yell at Raymond all the time about choices he makes in games where it's like, he'll choose to not reset something to zero when you trade. And it's like, dude, for the payoff to be as awesome as you want it to be, the pain has to hurt. And some people are afraid to really make something hurt when you don't execute. and Lyman was not afraid of that. And I appreciate that as a player.
    34:13
    Penny, is there a game that you liked most that Lyman worked on? That is a really, really difficult question. I feel like Monster Bash is one of my all-time favorite games. And I think it's, you know, although it's like very simple, I like the humor, I like the rules. It's just always a good time. But of all the other titles that he worked on, I think that when we were together and living with him and dealing with the development phase and whatever, like every time I play a game, I keep hearing him in my head when I'm talking. And I was playing ACDC and he was like doing code on a different game. And all of a sudden he's like, why did you hit that? I was like, what do you mean? Why did I hit that? He's like, nobody's going to play that game that way, you know? And like he would just like stand in back of me and watch me play. He's like, no one's going to do that. I was like, I'm going to do that, you know? So it was like like each game to me seems very special because of like little moments like that. But definitely I would say Monster Bash and Medieval Madness are at the top of my list. And I agree with you guys about Walking Dead. It is so frustrating. I love it, but it's it's it's tough. Not for everybody.
    35:26
    OK, Roger, you're up. well other than the fact that in my living room there is a monster bash and a medieval madness part of my collection over the years I have been asked and it will be different as a response to what my sons shared I've been asked what's my favorite pinball machine and then I've been asked who's your favorite son and it always seems to be a Sophie's choice in terms of they're all my children and both of my sons are my sons. And I guess I'll answer my favorite Lyman game is all of them.
    36:13
    There's not a way for me to differentiate and put a hierarchy on the enjoyment that I have, the challenges, the frustration in playing any of his games. I just know even the ones that kind of sneak up on me where I wind up forgetting that Lyman has done them or those off chances where it's like, I'll vaguely remember the right button combination to hear Lyman's lament.
    36:39
    You know, those are the things that make it, you know, incredibly special for me. So I cannot justify an answer as to one in particular.
    36:51
    We'll say all of them. Whatever one your hands are on at that time that you're playing. whichever one's on the production line Gary's there yeah the Metallica remastered it's all over there okay Zach you're not watching TV but the Metallica LE is right over my shoulder and then I just ordered the topper for it too so I'm hoping to get that soon Zach can you speak to we're talking about Metallica remastered and obviously this is a Lyman game and he wasn't there to see the remastered. How was it working on it and honoring his vision through this game?
    37:34
    Definitely bittersweet. I mean, I would say, you know, Lyman is like the ultimate, I like to think of him as like a chef or a baker where they'll make something, you try it, it's like, oh my God, this is fantastic. He's like, nope, throws it on the ground. It needs more salt. It needs more flavor. it needs more citrus and like metallica is kind of no different like the original is so damn good that the starting point for you know the team to take over and you know make not just like some software additions or sprinkles as i'll call it but you're starting from such a high bar that it's it's almost tough to screw that up because it is so damn good originally that it's just it's sprinkles on a cupcake that was fun. I mean, again, there's a reason why you see on every Stern game LFS co-champion. Like, I mean, he is forever emblazoned into the pinball zeitgeist.
    38:41
    In many ways, I would equate Lyman. There are certain people that you know when you play a game that it has that vibe. when you're playing a Lyman game when you're playing a Keith Elwin game you know it because it's not something you can put your finger on other than this feels true to the highest level of what I would like to have in a game and I would argue that that's what Lyman brought to us I know that we are wrapping up a little bit because we do have a little time crunch that you guys were able to commit to. But I would like to give everybody the opportunity for their parting thoughts. And I also want to throw it to Josh, too, if there's anything that he's thinking about right now.
    39:35
    You know, there's been a lot of, I think, of Zach Many, with Flippin' Out and Pinball Show and stuff like that, who's talked about making a Mount Rushmore pinball, and Lyman was always supposed to be on there. And I'm just like, And I think of, I don't know how much more you can immortalize a man because he's already done it so well himself. I just, I don't know. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I just, I really appreciate what he's done for us. and I would argue has kept pinball alive along with Gary Stern and those that pushed it through in the 2000s but have elevated it to a place where, I mean, it's such a high bar right now and we have him to thank for that. Scott, what are your thoughts? His games still hold up and that's what makes a game a legendary game is every time a new game comes out, there is a tendency for people to say, oh, this is the next big thing, this is the next big thing. And then with time, things kind of fade down or realign into maybe the proper perspective of where they should be in relation to other games. So the amazing thing is you don't know that you're doing something legendary in the moment. you don't it comes with time you don't know which part of history you're going to play and the fact that his games are still my kids favorite games are the ones that stick out to me to say that there is something about it that makes it accessible to both entry-level players and high-level players and if you want to find a way of bringing everybody together in pinball you're going to choose one of those games and that doesn't happen by accident that is a calculated move that he made to ensure that people can access them even if they aren't a top 100 player and that's why like one of the reasons why I keep telling usually the entry level game for people is Medieval Madness because everybody plays it, everybody loves it and I'm And man, Josh sprinkling the little nugget in there that they have ideas of updating the code on that. I'm really hoping some of that stuff actually comes to fruition because that would be amazing just to take a legendary game like they do with Metallica and take Medieval Madness to the next level, too.
    42:17
    Let's see how this cactus update sells for Scott. Settle down, Tiger. Hey, hey, I already told you my cactus is ready. I got you. Yeah, I think I am going to have to jump off. But like my I do my closing comment and then you guys can go on for hours with my dad if you want I think you know to call and I hear I hear Lyman talked about a lot as a programmer and as a coder And it always rubs me the wrong way because he was so much more than that Like, he was a freaking game designer. And I think, you know, the two people that stand out to me at that level of not just being, you know, like software and programmer and coding, it's like him and Larry DeMar. and you see you know in those two guys the ability to have you know as much impact if not the most impact on a game being made you know for these legendary designers you know i often joke like there's there's the pat lawler games that he did with larry and there's the pat lawler games he did without larry and to me you know no offense to pat i love you know all of his games but to me there's a significant difference in what him and Larry were able to do together. And I see that with what Steve Ritchie and Lyman were able to do and what Steve does when he's not with Lyman. What Brian Eddy and Lyman were able to do together and the games that Brian's had without Lyman's involvement. And that's not to knock those designers. I'm sure Steve Ritchie will take it as a knock and beat me up the next time I see him. But Lyman's impact on what made these games so phenomenally awesome, that came from him. And I think he gets sold short a lot from people that aren't aware. They just see these greatest games of all time, and it's always the sexy designer, I think, that gets a lot of the credit. and I think Lyman deserves so much more credit, even though he gets a ton these days. Even more than he has given. That's my closing thought about him and the impact he's had on the game.
    44:48
    Never would I thought I'd hear Steve Ritchie and Sexy Designer in the same sentence. Hey. Sorry. He's a good-looking guy. What are you talking about? at least he has hair i don't have hair that's true so i'll be much shorter in my closing uh comments before i have to drop off here in a minute but um it was cool to see this hashtag on both sides both before i was at stern and while i was there but in lyman we trust and that was just kind of the sentiment with all the games that he touched it's like the game could be launched you know early and it's like hashtag in lineman we trust you know batman needed to be rushed out the door because adam west's health was in decline and you know the game was a shell of itself just by that timing but there was no worry because with lineman's fingerprint on it you knew that it would become a masterpiece and everything he touched was pinball perfection.
    45:57
    I guess in closing, despite my son's thinking that I would talk forever, I'm trying to be better with that.
    46:06
    We've never had complaints, by the way. Never. No, no. Whether people are disappointed or relieved, you know, trust me, it's kind of like going to one of the current movies where there is an intermission because it's about a three and a half hour movie which will remain nameless. So it's like going to a Broadway play.
    46:26
    Anyway, among a few select people that have been really special in my life, let me share something that I see every single day. It's by where I get my clothes from. this is a special photograph for me where I see Lyman every single morning afternoon and evening based on where this is residing up in our main bedroom and obviously it's when he won the Papa tournament the only other person of honor if you will outside of family and everything is Steve Epstein that I have Surrounding and everywhere What I would say Is that Number one Having had The great fortune to Call him A friend I said before I always thought of it More paternally Because of the age difference Let's face it I'm not a contemporary Of Lyman But you know At one time we did team up as doubles partners and won a tournament or a league here in Chicago. And it was everybody saying, well, it's only because you teamed up with Lyman. It's like, no, I actually was a decent player back then. Still are. Yeah, well, every once in a while. But we did it again where I introduced them to a game called Sea Witch that they'd never played or seen before. We were in a tournament with Dave Heggie Myself God, I'm trying to remember Who the fourth was, Lyman Myself and somebody else and we were picking games And David is from Somewhere close to The vicinity of where I had Been playing games and it was like, oh yeah Let's do Sea Witch And Lyman I guess fell in love with it And wound up buying on As a result It was the Hidden Gems that were out there that I think he always gravitated to, whether or not he took inspiration from it. Don't know. But, again, being able to be part of that process with him was a joy and a blessing for me. And I think that hearing what the boys had to say, and I'm sure whatever Penny has already said and whatever she'll share as well,
    49:05
    Lyman was always very collaborative. So to the point of, you know, Zachary and Josh and Josh, I guess more specifically my Josh, if you will, saying that, you know, he was more than just a programmer. Absolutely, he was. And I think the part that I find so compelling And I mentioned it early on in this call The fact that Lyman transcends his time here And the games that he worked on And what he has influenced and inspired That will be carried on throughout Maybe the undeniable fact Without becoming, I guess, too sentimental Or too introspective is that playing his games, you really get a chance to touch his soul.
    49:57
    And I believe that in my heart, that his games have a life and a vibrancy and a vitality and a personality that is unique. It's Lyman. You know, there's bits and pieces, if not large morsels of him in every single game that he touched.
    50:23
    And for that, you know, I couldn't ask for anything more other than wishing he was still here for all of us. But he is in my heart. I don't know how you can follow that up but do you mind Penny are you okay with sharing your feelings I'm going to have a hard time just after what Roger just said but obviously I agree with what everybody said he was the love of my life and he was an incredible person I just can't even get my thoughts together right now I think it's great that people appreciate everything that he has done I just wish he felt that I'm hoping he does I want people to continue talking about him and remembering him and honoring him because of what he's contributed to pinball and to the world He just wanted people to have fun and enjoy playing his games. Nothing made him happier than to watch people play his games and have a great one. That was one of his biggest joys.
    51:43
    And I feel like I'm rambling because I always have a lot to say. And also with people talking about him, to me, it doesn't go away. He doesn't disappear, and I don't want him to. And it just brings him closer. so I always have a lot more to say but I don't think I could do it right now that's okay we would like to express our gratitude for you guys being able to come on we really wanted this to be a tribute, a living tribute to him and to everything that he has done both inside and outside of pinball and you know with the sorrow we feel in life tends to be with the intimacy that we've had. And obviously when we are very close to someone or someone has had a great impact on our life, we feel it more when they're not around daily, but the legacy is still there. We, we're still honoring him by, by remembering him and his, his love and the, the collaborative nature that he worked. It felt that he was better when he was working synergistically with people and the games that he touched, the lives that he touched continue to go on. And I appreciate that that, you know, even in a distant way that we all are part of that in some level. And I appreciate those who are most connected to him in life that were able to come on today and share that with people who don't aren't familiar with Lyman more than more than being an excellent coder, an amazing coder. There's there's everything associated with that that has made us better for being in his presence. I really want to thank you guys for letting us do this. I know that Lyman meant a lot to you guys. and like Josh had said earlier you know he feels like sometimes Lyman can be shortchanged as just being seen as a software designer or what not and I was hoping with doing an episode like this it could be remembering him and also who he was just because you know I only got to meet Lyman once while we were up there but he was awesome he was great to us and a really really nice person and I don't think many people got to see behind the curtain for that you know and I know he's just so beloved by those who are in this community that's in this industry. I knew it would be wonderful having you guys on because you have the best stories about him and remembering him. And so I want to thank you again for coming on. Thank you for thinking of wanting to do this, not even thinking, of wanting to do this. It makes it that much more special. So really from the bottom of my heart Just really appreciate Both of you thinking about Wanting to fit this into Not only the schedule but also What it is that you wanted to offer To all of your Followers and fans And so on So it's nice to be able to pay tributes For someone Who is so well deserved of it And the passage of time Not diminishing that light that still burns bright.
    55:06
    I can't thank you both, Scott and Josh, so much. And of course, to Roger, Josh, and Zach for doing this. I mean, it's fantastic. So can't thank you enough. You're welcome. I was always nervous because we've never done anything like this before. And so I guess I was nervous going into this, but it's been an amazing experience. You're awful, people. it's been good because it's been i would say positive remembering of the things that made lyman special and that's always good yep i think i'm going to wrap it up there um i'll do our usual outro you know if if you want to get a hold of us we're loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com we're on all the socials at loser kid pinball if you'd like to support us we are now doing Patreon, so you can hit us up there. Or Silver Ball Swag. If you like the jersey, it's very comfortable. I'm taking Scott to him on Tuesday. So hopefully we'll be able to show off some of that.
    56:09
    Scott, why don't you give us our final words? I want everybody to go play their famous, their favorite Lyman game. I want you to stand like Lyman. And if you are able to put a score in, put LFS in.
    56:27
    Thank you.