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Ep 49: AIQ with Keith Elwin

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 11m·analyzed·Nov 30, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Keith Elwin breaks down Avengers design philosophy, mode mechanics, and Stern's improved code quality.

Summary

Keith Elwin discusses his design work at Stern Pinball, focusing on Avengers and Iron Maiden. He explains the design philosophy balancing casual and competitive players, details mode mechanics including the challenging Gamma Ray shot and Soul Gem flipper-count mode, and shares insights on ramp engineering, code updates, and collaboration with programmer Rick Nagel and rules designer Raymond Tanzer.

Key Claims

  • Iron Maiden will receive a major code update in 2020 that will likely be its final update, ending its active development lifecycle after approximately 2.5 years

    high confidence · Keith Elwin stated this directly; mentioned the game has been out since 2018 and won't receive further updates barring glaring bugs

  • The Captain Marvel ramp on Avengers Premium/LE is significantly more expensive to manufacture than alternatives, making it unfeasible for the Pro model

    high confidence · Keith Elwin: 'when the bill came in for that ramp, we were amazed how much it costs. And it was like, wow, there's no way this can go on a pro.'

  • The Gamma Ray shot sound effect in Avengers was originally created for Jurassic Park but went unused because it was 15 seconds long

    high confidence · Keith Elwin explained the origin of the gamma ray sound and how it was repurposed from Jurassic Park archives

  • Stern's code quality has significantly improved; games now ship at 0.91-0.92 versions instead of historically around 0.41

    high confidence · Host noted this improvement; Keith attributed it to programmer Rick Nagel's speed and Keith handling all rules/scoring changes separately

  • Keith Elwin is designing games at approximately one per year, with multiple titles in the pipeline (joking reference to 'Laundry Day' as game #6)

    medium confidence · Host: 'we didn't expect another game from you this year. All of a sudden, bam, here's Avengers'; Keith jokes about 'Laundry Day' being game four, five, or six

  • The Soul Gem flipper-count mode in Avengers was inspired by an experimental mechanic first tested in Jurassic Park's topper mode

    high confidence · Keith Elwin: 'It's something I experimented with in Jurassic Park. I was afraid to put it in, so we saved it for the topper mode'

  • Raymond Tanzer was hired at Stern and was given Iron Maiden work to learn the company's coding system and processes

    high confidence · Keith Elwin: 'when Raymond got hired, they wanted to get his feet wet working on some stuff. So we actually handed that to him for a few weeks so he can learn our system'

Notable Quotes

  • “The game's coming to the end of its life cycle, so that doesn't make too much sense. But we do have a pretty big update, which will definitely be out in 2020.”

    Keith Elwin @ early segment — Confirms Iron Maiden's final update timeline and end-of-life status

  • “It's tough being one of the go-to designers, right? I mean, I love being busy. I love working. So I'm not complaining.”

    Keith Elwin @ mid-segment — Reveals Elwin's workload and design output volume at Stern

  • “Wow, this is super boring. So I went back to the drawing board and I was looking through you know what assets we had for Dr. Banner which were basically his eyes.”

    Keith Elwin @ Gamma Ray discussion — Shows iterative design process and how asset limitations drove creative solutions

  • “As long as they're metal, they'll work fine. And so, you know, we put those in there. We shot them. Oh, yeah, they work fine.”

    Keith Elwin (quoting Ray Tanzer) @ ramp design section — References influence of Stargate designer Ray Tanzer on steep ramp concept

  • “So I know there are two different types of pinball players. Those who play for score and those who play for story.”

    Keith Elwin @ design philosophy section — Core design philosophy statement influencing Avengers accessibility balance

  • “Yeah, I think Rick's a great programmer. He's very fast. And the fact that I'm doing all the rules and scoring changes, I do know that in my head, Rick just has to go in, figure out how to implement it and do that rather than getting bogged down on rules himself.”

    Keith Elwin @ code quality discussion — Explains division of labor between design and programming at Stern

  • “It's a cardiac stress test. I mean, it's just if you ever wonder if you are having a heart attack, just go ahead and play that and try to trap up and shoot that shot.”

    Host (about Gamma Ray shot) @ Gamma Ray discussion — Describes the psychological stress and difficulty of the Gamma Ray shot mechanic

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonScott LarsonpersonRick NagelpersonRaymond TanzerpersonRay TanzerpersonJerry ThompsonpersonDwightperson

Signals

  • ?

    code_update: Iron Maiden receiving major code update in 2020 that will likely be the game's final update after ~2.5 years of availability; includes multiple tweaks and changes deferred since launch

    high · Keith Elwin: 'we do have a pretty big update, which will definitely be out in 2020' and 'barring any glaring bugs, this will be the last update'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Captain Marvel ramp in Avengers represents significant engineering achievement: steepest possible ramp design with functional gameplay; cost-prohibitive for Pro model

    high · Keith Elwin detailed multi-iteration design process and final engineering cost that precluded Pro inclusion

  • ?

    design_innovation: Soul Gem mode uses flipper-count mechanic (rare in modern pinball); originally experimented in Jurassic Park topper, promoted to core mode in Avengers

    high · Keith Elwin: 'It's something I experimented with in Jurassic Park. I was afraid to put it in, so we saved it for the topper mode'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Avengers Pro/Premium/LE split driven by specific component costs (Captain Marvel ramp) rather than general tier strategy

    high · Keith Elwin on ramp cost: 'There's no way this can go on a pro' which forced stand-up target solution instead

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Raymond Tanzer hired at Stern as rules designer; assigned to Iron Maiden update as learning project; collaborated with Keith Elwin on Avengers mode balancing

    high · Keith Elwin: 'when Raymond got hired, they wanted to get his feet wet working on some stuff' and 'had someone to go back and forth debating rules with'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.213

0:00
thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast this is episode 49 with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott let's get our uh let's talk about our friends really quick and uh let's introduce our guest okay uh so friends of the show first and foremost if you're looking for that a new pinball machine or anything to accessorize your game room please contact Zach and Nicole at Flippin' Out Pinball. Always useful to help out. Secondly, also, if you want to check out Ray Day Pinball, he'll be able to give you all the tips on the machines and teach you how you're supposed to be playing as opposed to you flailing around like I do. Also, This Week in Pinball, please check out Jeff Patterson's site. He goes through all of the information and summarizes it into five quick talking points. Also, check out my friend's blog, The Pinball Loft. just has his review of the Ventures. He has a lot of fun tidbits of information. Also, Pinshades. If you want to be able to play on location without those annoying glaring lights, go ahead and pick out the Pinshades. There's also a Black Friday code. I'm sure it's still active. It's Loser Kid. Is it pinball, Jeff? It's BF. Okay. Check out the Black Friday sale. Loser Kid BF. Also, Brian Allen, if you're looking for the alternative translights for classic Williams Valley games, check it out. I have the Medieval Madness one in my game, and it's a lot of fun just to swap it out. Just mix it up a little bit. Also, check out Lit Frames if you want that translight to be illuminated and you don't have the game. Go ahead and check out Brad at Lit Frames. He'll be able to hook you up. Also, another website to check out, Pinball Supernova. If you just want to check out alternative stuff that is out there, please check out his site too. And Josh, okay. Who do we have today? Sorry, when you said alternative stuff, he's talking about pinball. He's not talking about like... Get your fetish off kind of thing. Wow, I didn't even realize you were going to go there. Okay.
2:18
Oh, okay. Alternative music, like 90s alternative music is that what you're yeah yes exactly you're thinking of whiffs and change well our guest is always an honor to have him on you know this man has been on this is his third time we couldn't think of anyone better than to have mr goat zilla himself keith elwyn how you doing keith hello nice to be back yeah well we're excited to have you back on it um we heard that you're adding more Christmas songs or something into Iron Maiden.

  • The Reality Gem mode is the easiest mode in Avengers; the Time Gem is the hardest and offers risk-reward strategy implications

    high confidence · Keith Elwin: 'i think uh that's probably the easiest mode in the game and time gem is probably the hardest because that can really affect how you play the game'

  • “And then you watch Keith on stream on the first day they're streaming it, and you hit it like three times in a row. That's the last time I've done that, too.”

    Keith Elwin @ Gamma Ray discussion — Reveals even the designer struggles with the Gamma Ray shot consistency

    • Stern Pinball
    company
    Avengersgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtlesgame
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Ray Day Pinballperson
    This Week in Pinballcontent
    The Pinball Loftcontent
    Pinshadesproduct
    Congogame
    Lord of the Ringsgame
    Stargategame
    Carl Vandalperson
    Zombie Yetiperson
    Tim Leeperson
    Monster Bashgame
  • ?

    code_update: Stern has significantly improved code release quality; modern games ship at 0.91-0.92 versions vs. historical 0.41; attributed to programmer efficiency and separation of rules/code work

    high · Host: 'Avengers came out in a 0.91 or 0.92' and contrasted with 'old days where you would release a game and it would be on like 0.41 code'; Keith credited Rick Nagel's speed and his own rules focus

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin explicitly designs for two player types: 'Those who play for score and those who play for story'; Avengers structures easy story progression with optional high-difficulty combo stacking for advanced scoring

    high · Keith Elwin: 'I know there are two different types of pinball players. Those who play for score and those who play for story. So I approached this game with, okay, I'm going to make it super easy to advance the story.'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Power Gem mode underwent balance revision during development; initial version was too long/grindy; revised to 3-4 rounds with point boost incentive after Raymond Tanzer feedback

    high · Keith Elwin: 'that mode would take forever to beat...after playing it for a while i got with raymond it's like yeah this i misjudged how fun this is going to be let's make it real short and sweet'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Keith Elwin operating at ~1 game per year output rate at Stern; referenced joking pipeline including 'Laundry Day' as potential 4th-6th title

    medium · Host: 'we didn't expect another game from you this year. All of a sudden, bam, here's Avengers'; Keith jokes about game numbering suggesting multiple titles in pipeline

  • ?

    community_signal: Community actively requesting playable villain options (Thanos in Avengers, Shredder in TMNT); Keith Elwin acknowledges interest but indicates no current plans

    medium · Host relayed listener Tim Lee's request for Thanos playability; Keith: 'Sadly, no. That's the homebrew option.' Comments indicate listener frustration with always playing good guys

  • ?

    design_innovation: Gamma Ray shot sound in Avengers was originally created for Jurassic Park but rejected for being 15 seconds long; repurposed from archives for Avengers

    high · Keith Elwin traced sound origin through archives; confirmed with Rick Nagel and Jerry Thompson; described as cardiac stress test sound effect

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Reality Gem mode identified as easiest in Avengers; Time Gem identified as hardest with game-changing strategic implications if won or lost

    high · Keith Elwin: 'i think uh that's probably the easiest mode in the game and time gem is probably the hardest because that can really affect how you play the game'

    • 2:55
    What's going on there? Well, there is a Twisted Sister Christmas album, so I think there's going to be an Iron Maiden Christmas album coming out, and you can just throw those in, right? Eddie sings Christmas carols? Yes. Yeah.
    3:08
    That would be awesome. But in all seriousness, we know that you threw Eddie up on your Facebook and whatnot, and everyone's been hounding you about more songs in the game. Are you putting some more songs in that game?
    3:22
    Unless somebody wants to pay for them. No. The game's coming to the end of its life cycle, so that doesn't make too much sense. But we do have a pretty big update, which will definitely be out in 2020. You're not going to go like Guitar Hero or Rock Band style, where you could pay $0.99 for more songs and whatnot inside your game, huh? Oh, if people want to pay me, sure. But I can't help them there. Now in this new update, you get to play as the Beast, right? And you get to attack Eddie You get to attack Eddie, yeah You reverse soul shards Wow, God, I haven't played the game in a long time So it's really... I'm trying to remember All the games are a blur now Yeah, well, when you have all the games of the year in your arsenal It's pretty hard to keep them all straight Well, they're working you like a dog down there, too It's like one game a year, and, man, like we didn't expect another game from you this year. All of a sudden, bam, here's Avengers. Boom. Yeah, yeah.
    4:27
    It's tough. It's tough being one of the go-to designers, right? I mean, I love being busy. I love working.
    4:37
    So I'm not complaining. Okay. Actually, I do love having you on because I actually started taking notes on the Avengers. I've been playing it nonstop since I've got it. Actually, my other games are staring at me, just kind of wondering when I'm going to turn them on. But I've just been playing that nonstop. And I do have some some follow up questions about the different modes. And so we want to get to those two.
    5:02
    Oh, man. Didn't Raymond answer any questions? Well, he answered some, but you know. oh yeah yeah it was interesting when he came on board yeah because i already written a rule set and so when he first started he just made them verbatim as i i made them but then i kind of towards the end of the project because i now i thought that sucked so i changed it so it was actually pretty fun having someone to uh go back and forth debating rules with and uh yeah it's pretty fun working on the rules with him well it has to be pretty amazing actually at stern because it's not like you're the only high level pinball player there are other people that you can say hey what do you think about this and they're like yeah maybe maybe not do this yeah that was definitely easier pre-covid uh now if they don't have the game at home you get no feedback so uh it was real real nice when raymond came on got his play field and uh i got his feedback on stuff so so do you and raymond fight over who gets to have their initials on the uh like unattainable final mode in the games because i noticed on ninja turtles kme is the cowabunga initials so do you have like a game off and see who who gets there first and then you get to put your initials in no i think usually uh ricky usually just uh drags and drops whatever's from the previous game and i think ray added a bunch of his northwest buddies but uh yeah we're trying to mix it up a little bit we gave zombie yeti the default grand champion because he he's such a special guy yes and uh yeah i think ray added a bunch of his friends uh i didn't have much input uh in this game for that i just let him put whatever they want oh gotcha yeah i just thought kme is my my cowabunga champ i'm like like is it just default now like everyone just assumes keith's gonna get be the only one that gets the cowabunga so you know just put his initials there first yeah i had dwight yeah dwight seems to be doing that for me so that's a little shout out i guess but thanks dwight hey well dwight gave us a flipper code so you can actually see us on the turtle so that was a lot of fun neat yeah hey uh okay so i uh start off we said the iron maiden code is coming out um you said it's a major update it's been out for uh you know it's been out for what three years now two and a half uh 2018 yeah yeah so we're coming up on three years what was the big impetus to to do a major code update for that uh i mean it's not a major major update but there are a lot of little tweaks and changes uh basically when the dj mixer thing came out they said hey you have to update iron maiden And when Rick was working on Iron Maiden, Jurassic Park dropped in our lap and we had just kind of cut it off where we're at to get to Jurassic. And then when we're done Jurassic, then Avengers drops in our lap. And so it looked like nothing was ever going to get done on our big list of stuff to do. And then when Raymond got hired, they wanted to get his feet wet working on some stuff. So we actually handed that to him for a few weeks so he can learn our system, our code, what we do. So he implemented a good chunk of the changes we had made.
    8:29
    But now we have just a few more to do and then hopefully test this up and get it out. Nice. So when you say end of life, though, does that mean you're going to be wrapping up production on it here soon? they're not going to be making any more Iron Maidens, or is it just kind of like the code's kind of almost as complete as we can get it, and so it's just going to be kind of the last update for the foreseeable future kind of thing? Yeah, I would say, barring any glaring bugs, this will be the last update.
    8:58
    It doesn't make sense for us to spend a bunch of time on a game that's three years old. So a lot of this stuff has been on the list for a while that we've wanted to get in there since before 1.0, but now's our chance. it's been pretty amazing what you guys have done there at Stern over the last three and four years. Really, it seemed like the code was lagging on a lot of these games, but it really seems like a huge push for you guys to be able to get the code updated, get it out fast. And most of the games seem to be at least fairly complete when they come out. I mean, even Avengers came out in a 0.91 or 0.92. And so it feels like in the old days, the old days seemed to be a distant past where you would release a game and it would be on like 0.41 code or something like that. So it flipped into this expensive box of lights. But now it seems like you're getting a really good feel of the game.
    9:57
    I'm really impressed with what you guys have been able to do at Stern. Well, thanks. Yeah, we've definitely gotten better. and my design team, myself, Rick Nagel.
    10:07
    I think Rick's a great programmer. He's very fast. And the fact that I'm doing all the rules and scoring changes, I do know that in my head, Rick just has to go in, figure out how to implement it and do that rather than getting bogged down on rules himself. So I think that's a big help to push forward.
    10:29
    Sorry, I muted my mic there for a second because the laundry was going. Hey, I've done like 10 loads of laundry today too. Well, it is laundry day, which is the next game that's going to be released by Keith Ellin, right? Yes.
    10:45
    Is that game number four or game number five? Yeah, I'm thinking maybe game six. Okay. We'll just keep pushing it off.
    10:58
    Okay, so I want to talk about Avengers. So one thing we were mentioning before is there is a big difference between the Pro and the Premium LE, and the obvious visual cue is the Captain Marvel ramp. And so I want to talk about the differences between the Pro and the Premium LE and how the Captain Marvel ramp changes the gameplay and if you have any tips about maintaining that ramp.
    11:27
    Ramp maintenance. All right. we're getting to the nitty-gritty now yeah so it's funny when i was designing avengers uh i had this two ramps way in the back really steep i remember george came over and said oh those ramps are never going to work those are way too steep and then ray tanzer who works at stern who designed stargate looked at it and says oh it's just like a the stargate ramp you know As long as they're metal, they'll work fine. And so, you know, we put those in there. We shot them. Oh, yeah, they work fine.
    12:01
    And so I was like, man, that kind of inspired me. I just want to make the steepest ramp possible but have it fun. So that's the Marvel ramp that kind of came about,
    12:14
    experimented with a couple different ideas of what it would actually do. One interpretation was a kind of a sideways helix that went back behind the ramp entrance to the right. But my engineer just had laughed at me and said, no, we can do this. So we did that.
    12:34
    And then when the bill came in for that ramp, we were amazed how much it costs. And it was like, wow, there's no way this can go on a pro.
    12:43
    So I had very little space to work with there to put something else in. So I was like, well, yeah, I'll just put a stand-up target here. And so I drilled a hole in the playfield. Put a target. First time I shot it, went straight down the middle. I was like, oh, this isn't going to work. So it kind of racked my brain a little bit. And I was like, how can I slow the ball down and just come like a little U-turn? So I put a spinner there and a spring gate. The only purpose of a spring gate is to slow the ball down because the ball is never going to come back through the other way.
    13:15
    So I didn't blow out the side ball guide there. And this is all 11th hour. uh didn't really get the chance to shoot it until uh we had basically two days to say hey is this going to work or not so yeah we got it all together made the modification shot it and it's like oh this actually shoots pretty good so i was relieved and we didn't have to make any changes so yeah that's a big difference between the pro and le um as far as maintenance if you keep the ramp clean, it should work fine. It is very steep, so if you kind of rattle the entrance at all, it's going to be tough going. But if you make a nice smooth entrance shot, it should be good.
    14:02
    I used, back when I had a game at my house, I used turtle wax to keep it nice and clean and flowing fast. And yeah, if you're having any kind of issues, make sure the wire and the ramp entrance are nice and flush. Sometimes the wire farm kind of starts moving forward. Then you get not a smooth transition and it gets a little clunky at the top. So that's something to look out for. There's a nut on the back of that wire farm. Just make sure that's tight and tight, waxed clean. It should be fine.
    14:34
    So the one thing I want to point out with Avengers, and really it's with all of your games, and I just don't know how you do this game after game after game, but it seems like you have the expert in mind along with the beginner because it rewards, I mean, take Power Gem, for example. If you shoot the Hulk spinner, the easiest shot is worth small points, but it seems like if you go for the big hard shots, you get three times the point value. Is this something you've always tried to incorporate in your games? Is this something you're actively, like, I don't want to leave the beginners out versus the experts? Is this just something you're trying to obtain across all games?
    15:17
    So I know there are two different types of pinball players. Those who play for score and those who play for story. So I approached this game with, okay, I'm going to make it super easy to advance the story. You can get through the game. You can get into your quests. they're not going to be you know obviously the quests aren't easy to win but they're easy to get to yes um you know thor is easy uh i you know put all this early stuff to advance the game so you know the casual player can see a bunch of different stuff but yeah if you're actually scoring points uh you might approach it completely differently like if you watch carl's dreams he actively avoids getting multi balls so he can set up some huge you know stacked combo and uh that's how i approached the game and uh i hope it worked oh it does and you like i said there each game there's just little nuances that i love at each game like the spinner and jurassic park is fantastic not only the sound and the spin but the the shooting each ramp which lights all your values at the spinner and the gang super spinner and just hitting just hitting that guy is fantastic like just these little things and i like like you said like you know if you're just looking for the story and whatnot, you can kind of advance. I know it's Avengers a little easier to advance than maybe Jurassic Park. But it's just awesome. My son is addicted to this Jurassic Park game. Like I texted you, his favorite game of all time was Congo. And we've had Jurassic Park here, and now he's like, Dad, this easily beats Congo. And I haven't been able to get him off of Congo for well, since we owned it three years ago. So you're doing something special. You're doing something right. I love Congo. So any chance you can change the pop up bumper sounds to saying hippos, hippos, hippos.
    17:09
    OK, getting back to the power gem, there's actually two things I want to I want to say about that one.
    17:17
    So when you when you qualify the gamma ray shot, I don't think anything makes my heart pound faster than trying to actually get that shot. I can hit it all the time in the game, but as soon as I hear that gamma ray shot for the spinner just cranking up, I cannot hit that to save my life. It is actually the most stress-inducing shot that I have.
    17:41
    Go ahead No no go ahead It crazy Every time it like I can hit this before How can I not hit it now So originally I wrote up the rule as Hulk Rage and there was no sound There was just like some text on the screen. It's just your basic super spinner. You know, you'd shot scores points and then boost the value. That's how Raymond implemented it. He did a build. I shot it, and I was like, wow, this is super boring. so i went back to the drawing board and i was looking through you know what assets we had for dr banner which were basically his eyes what can i do with this i was like hmm i think i'm going to channel a little bit from the 80s tv show and have an actual gamma ray incident and uh so i went to the archives what can you do with this very small picture of his eyes and room oh yeah we can just put you know put these gamma ray things looking down i was like and uh they did a quick mock-up and i was like yeah very cool now i need a sound so yeah i kick it over to jerry thompson and he's sent me a couple different things and i was like it doesn't really grab me and then i remembered that jerry gave us the sound for jurassic park that we ended up never using because it was like 15 seconds long i was like hey jerry do you remember this he's like no and And so I asked Rick, do you remember that sound that we both liked but couldn't find a place for in Jurassic? And then he, you know, a couple hours later, he found it, sent it over. I was like, yes, yes, this sound. So I sent that to Jared, and he's like, oh, I don't even remember doing this.
    19:20
    Yeah, we tried it in the game. He's like, yep, we have our sound effect. Yeah, it's a cardiac stress test. I mean, it's just if you ever wonder if you are having a heart attack, just go ahead and play that and try to trap up and shoot that shot. Oh, the thing is now because the reality gem now goes up to 5X. So if you have a 5X on Hulk and you start Gamma Ray, you're just so much pressure to hit that spinner. So you know you're probably going to get at least $30 to $50 million on a good shot.
    19:51
    I love that you went with the Gamma Ray because you only had Bruce Banner's eyes. It was like, can we do this? Or like romantic evening, like stare into Hulk's eyes as long as you can kind of thing. Yeah, like I said, originally it was just Hulk standing there with some text. I was like, wow, this is super lame.
    20:09
    But it works, though. That gamma shot, like Scott said, it's absolutely fantastic. And if you hit it once, you feel like King Kong. And then you hit it twice, you're like, I own this game. And then you watch Keith on stream on the first day they're streaming it, and you hit it like three times in a row. That's the last time I've done that, too. It was like, oh, most of the times you hit it a second time. It's, you know, it's horizontal and it goes right through and you're like, ah.
    20:33
    So, yeah. Okay. I do want to talk about the power jump, though, is that because when you do it, you have the three illuminated shots on the right and you have the, what are you guys calling that avocado ramp, the banana ramp, the. The pot belly ramp. Yeah, the pot belly ramp. Okay. So you have that and you also have the Captain Marvel shot and then you have the Panther shot, but they're all blinking at different rates. Is that because the Captain Marvel shot is worth more because you're shooting that? Because I've always wondered that because I've never been able to figure out why the flashing lights are flashing at different rates. Yeah. So we have critical blows and glancing blows. The critical shot is worth three times as much as the other two. and the spinner builds the value a one-time shot through the spinner will build the value until it stops spinning and then you have to shoot one of the other shots to relight the spinner to build value originally that mode sucked because i had it um so critical shot would do a certain amount of damage and the glancing blows would do not as much damage so that mode would take forever to beat and uh after playing it for a while i got with raymond it's like yeah this i misjudged how fun this is going to be let's make it real short and sweet uh three three four rounds of shots i want it to be done but uh have a big point boost if you shoot the middle shot so uh yeah i think it worked out that it is one of my favorite modes i was gonna say it's one of my favorite too like i gravitate towards that mode it's just a really fun mode yeah the ones that are are hard i there There are a few that are actually pretty hard. So the mind gem. And so when you're actually – so I do have this question. When it says, you know, like, panther is under mind control. So you're shooting the disc to break that, and then you shoot the panther shot. Did I understand that correctly? No, you're backwards. So there's three phases. For each round, one of the Avengers is being controlled by Supergiant, and that's the one that blinks faster, and the callout will say, you know, panther there is four shots uh you can shoot any one of those shots to light the disc uh to break the mind control but if you don't uh shoot the avenger that calls out uh you have to shoot the sanctum in order to finishing blow oh okay so if you for all three rounds if you shoot the affected avenger before shooting the disc you get to skip that the final blow to the sanctum which can be a bear as you know oh yeah yeah no that's hard yeah so whoever says it's infected with the faster blink rate you definitely want to shoot them before spinning the disc but if not but if not you can still beat the mo you just have to shoot the final blow of the sanctum gotcha so so the real question is when do we get to play as thanos i mean seriously all these people are craving like scott wants a bible game where you can play Satan instead of God.
    23:41
    Hey, I just think it'd be fun, right? Oh yeah, it was almost like it was designed to play as Thanos. Yeah, kind of. It's not a coincidence. Yeah, I don't know.
    23:52
    Just one of our listeners, Tim Lee, I'm going to give you a shout out. I guess he was harassing Dwight about being Shredder on Turtles, and he's like, why can't we ever be the bad guys in these games? It's driving me nuts. He wants to be the bad guy. And so he wanted me to ask you if there's any hope maybe of maybe Thanos being the guy you can play as on Avengers. No, sorry. Sadly, no. That's the homebrew option. Yeah.
    24:20
    I think it'd be a lot more interesting. That's all I can say. Yeah, yeah. Tired of the good guys always winning.
    24:28
    Reenact Thanos' punch right into, was it Captain America's face or Thor's face? Yeah. No, no, no. Sorry, it's Iron Man. Golly. I think Thanos is an admirable villain. Yes.
    24:42
    Very well balanced. Yeah. Okay, so I do want to get through the other modes, though. So you got space. Okay, so tell me about space.
    24:51
    Space Jam, it could be as easy as right orbit, left orbit. Okay. But there are other shots lit. You can combo the Black Widow ramp into the right orbit. everything's worth double on that phase. If you shoot the potbelly ramp to Hawkeye to the left ramp, everything is triple.
    25:15
    And one thing nobody realizes on this mode because it doesn't do a very good job showing it is after you attack crap, who's that? Whatever villain, Black Order villain that is on the left orbit. Oh, it's Cornelius. Oh, Cornelius. Glaive. yeah uh each pop bumper also adds a bunch of points to the final shot so you shoot the left orbit it gives you a point award but each pop bumper i think it's like 250k or something additional points um but it yeah it gets kind of trounced with the display animations uh that's on our list to fix but uh yeah it's pretty straightforward if you just want to blow through the mode with the minimal points right orbit left orbit if you want to build up points, you'll combo one of the two metal ramps in first.
    26:03
    Okay. And what's the, so here's the question, though, is each of these modes, they give you bonuses that carry out through the game. So, like, what is the bonus on this one? So the bonus that you're eligible for would be the soul gem jackpot, but you first have to get the soul gem. so once you have the soul gem then a certain percentage of the points you got in each mode you can collect instantly as a jackpot when the mode is done uh if you shoot the soul gem oh okay so that's your incentive to do well okay so we talked about mind power space we got time and uh which one and now that's reality no well uh uh well there's reality and there's time those are the last two yeah and so reality yeah i spin the disc yeah uh however many strange letters are lit those are your multiplier for the shot so the letters will start counting down so uh uh the more you can keep spinning the disc and shooting the yellow shots uh the more points you could be and i think uh that's probably the easiest mode in the game and time gem is probably the hardest because that can really affect how you play the game. So if I do time gen first and win, then I know all my ball savers are extended and all my super modes from the drop targets, I can make them last for a very long time. So it's a game-changing gem if you make it. If you don't, then you kind of change strategy to probably not as much emphasis on the super modes and more on just the quests. okay because that's the one i typically choose man that is a bugger that is hard it is hard yeah but that's by design so yeah well it's a risk reward right you're you're getting a reward for the hardest one yeah yeah so they're you know they're six quests or however many there are and i wanted to you know too easy too kind of hard when middle of the road so okay great power comes create difficulty. That's the Spider-Man mode. Okay. Now, one thing I do want to talk, again, the other cardiac stress test I have is doing the soul gem. So let's talk about the soul gem. All right. So that is, that's the one that it's flipper counts. So you start with 30 and you have to go through all eight progressions. And it's also hard because I always, the first shot is the Panther shot, which is the orbit on the right. And so as soon as I activate it, I always hold up the right flipper because I want it to bounce over to the other flipper, and I don't want to count that against my flips. Yeah, you've got to shoot the Widow ramp. Yeah. Well, the Widow's the second one.
    28:57
    Yeah, but if your first shot should be the Widow ramp, rather than trying to pass the ball to the left flipper, because I don't think that's even possible. Yeah. so yeah widow ramp and then shoot black panther and then combo back into the widow ramp so there's your tip oh there you go all right that's good to know and or if you have the mind gem one you just hit the button and forget it oh well there you go but yeah that's uh that is every time i try to to activate that that is fun it's it's great because you've you've collected all the avengers so that's how you you start the mode you collect all the Avengers, and then you drop it down the subway. And so, yeah, it's just a fun mode. That's not very common to actually have a flipper count on a mode. What was your inspiration for that one?
    29:51
    It's something I experimented with in Jurassic Park. I was afraid to put it in, so we saved it for the topper mode and kind of made kind of a gag mode out of it just to see, you know, if it actually worked and if people hated it or not um didn't really get much response but uh i figured okay i'll just take that same premise and make it important and uh you know make it stressful put it early in the game so you know average players will have a chance to play it and i remember when raymond first implemented i think you started off with like 20 flips and you got like five and i was like ray this isn't for us this mode isn't for us man let's give let's give these people a chance so uh yeah we boosted everything and i think it's pretty good balance now of uh the average player has a good chance to beat it i totally agree i mean it's and it is one of those stressful modes as well especially like you feel the pressure especially when you drain and it's like and we're taking five flips but i do love that it's it's uh what's the word i'm looking for a little forgiving in that sense that if you do drain you don't lose your ball you just lose flips that's pretty cool it makes you think it's like ah do i try to save this ball waste flips and drain or do i just let it drain and take the five flips yeah and then of course the hardest part is after you've been playing that your mind says don't flip don't flip oh wait no i can flip now okay i i have never had i i think this game is going to start swearing at me though i am typically not a shaker or a mover but i i swear that I'm going to rattle this game right off the hinges because I'm shaking it so much to keep it from actually draining. I'm surprised that I don't get more tilts.
    31:36
    I'm actually surprised it's as draining as it is because it's shipped at the post all the way down. And that left side, I think the ball barely fits through there. Yeah, well, I saw your post where you actually updated it and you pointed to the left outlay and you said, don't move this. no but but that actually made me feel i i love this game because it does feel like even me as an average player i feel like i have a chance to actually get more into the game and now the funny thing is it's not really a slow game though it's actually pretty fast i was over at my friend's house last night and we were playing lord of the rings and it felt like that was the slowest ball in the world i felt like i could flip it go get a drink uh use the bathroom and come back and actually still destroy the ring yeah yeah those old sterns weren't the fastest yeah so answer your question about the left out lane i hate when the the balls in the left out lane area hits that metal rail and just dies and drains yeah i hate that so that's why i put the left out lane post all the way down and the right out lane is a little wider does this have a ball save on avengers because i know jurassic park does but i can't remember if avenger does or not on the left out a ball safe oh not ball safe sorry kick kick back sorry it's not the kickback no i went into this game i was like i don't want to play field multiplier and i don't want an outlane save because i did that my previous two games so gotcha well i know um i know that nedry's on the right because i'm like well at least if i death save this you know i still get the points too so oh see every time i see that i just think i'm nerdy like i always read it wrong It's nerdy. So I was originally in Jurassic Park. If you're on ball three and haven't done squat and you cashed in your Nedry, it would be a ball save. But we never ended up implementing that. Gotcha. That would be the boomerang, like what they used to do in old games where like on NBA Jam, you could only be like seven points ahead because it would actually start augmenting the guy who stinks. So they would actually catch up because otherwise they'd be like, it's not worth it. yeah that was that was my original intention and it's just like i don't want that much randomness it's fine just giving worthless points so on jurassic park we have escaped new blar are you doing something with avengers where it can be just a quick accessible mode from the flippers yes it's a full version of battle royale that's already in the game wow nice it's already in the In the current code that we have out now. In .94? Correct. Yes. Oh, so you hold down the button. Okay, was that in .93? Because I didn't try that. It's been there since release. Oh, my gosh.
    34:26
    Scott, explore your game. Hey, I've been playing it. It's crazy. Okay, all right. So hold the flippers and see what happens. Good things will happen, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So in the game itself as a wizard mode, there's a smaller version of Battle Royale that's much harder to beat. but it takes not nearly as long.
    34:46
    So the one that you, the mini game that you choose, I think all the shots are doubled and it takes twice as long since it's, you know, a dedicated game. But yeah, actually I haven't played it that much either.
    34:58
    The funny thing is I've played it on Jurassic Park. I've played Escape from Nublar a lot. I still stink at it, but it's still a lot of fun. But I guess I never even thought, I thought that because it wasn't 1.0 that it hadn't been implemented. But okay, here's a pro tip for you kids. Well, that brings me to another point, too, then. I don't think this has ever been done in any other pinball machine. I'm a big fan of the 90s games because they're kind of easy to get to the wizard mode. But after you beat the wizard mode it just starts back at the beginning And it feels anticlimactic to say the best Because then you like I really have to do this all over again i it always it drove me nuts especially with the adams family because of toward the mansion but in jurassic park if you are lucky enough to secure the troll room do museum mayhem and uh visit the visitor center and you can finish escape nublar and you finish when dinosaurs rolled the earth the game's actually over and so is this like i don't think i've ever seen this in any other pinball machine and so it makes you also think of well how do i get the most points if i'm actually going to try to complete this game as well yeah is this something that you're trying to implement in all your games because this is awesome yeah um as a player uh when i get to the end of a game that takes a long time it's like you know you use lord of the Ring is an example. I've gotten to Valinor. I was like, what's the last thing you feel like doing after you're done with Valinor? And that's starting over. Keep flipping. Woo! Yeah. So that's the approach I take now. It's like, you know, after playing for 45 minutes, do you really want to keep playing with everything reset? Or do you want to go in with a strategy knowing, hey, this is the end. It's like a video game. This is the end of the game. I've got to get all the points I can before getting here because this is the end. So and I thought Jurassic Park was perfect because it matches the storyline. Nublar blew up. So what are you suddenly doing back at Nublar with all the dinosaurs back? So it didn't make any sense to restart the game. I took a bunch of flack internally for thinking that. But we put it in a game and I've only gotten positive comments from it. So, yeah, that's probably something I'll be doing for all the games. It's awesome. Legitimately, how many people are really going to get to that point?
    37:20
    You're talking about a very specific elite player who's knowing that that's – it's like on Donkey Kong going for the kill screen. Like you know where you're going. It's like I'm not going to stumble into it by chimp flipping both sides. It's just not going to happen. Yeah, yeah. I know some people don't like the never-ending play-forever game, but to me, you're going to get bored of it that way.
    37:48
    I mean, it's like after, yeah, like I said, Lord of the Rings, Valinor, it's like, I don't want to play this anymore.
    37:54
    You're just plunging and draining. You don't care. You just want to put your initials up and go. Exactly. Especially on a game like Lord of the Rings where you spend, what, an hour? Well, probably for you, Keith, it's like 20 minutes. But for someone like us, it takes an hour, hour and a half. You finally finish Valinor, and you're like, and I'm rewarded with Flipsmore. I don't know. It's funny because we always talk about, well, you can never win pinball. It's just unwinnable. But doing this literally makes it winnable. You're trying to get to the game over screen. Yeah, so not only winnable, but you get a little bonus game if you do everything correctly and win Dinosaurs Rule the Earth. so you can add another billion to your score when a game's over if you beat all the mini wizards so yeah I like that formula I'll probably stick to it I love it too well it reminds me TNA was really the first one that I could think of that actually had the kill screen I guess but this feels perfect I love other games being able to look at those things and being able to do different things it's awesome Yeah, that's true. TNA did do that. I think you still plunge your balls, but yeah, it's pretty much the same concept. I forgot about that. Sorry, Scott.
    39:13
    Yeah. Denisey. He's the man. He gets the credit for that. Hey, I just wanted to make sure that we're going to get the three emails that we get. Hey, you forgot about that. I totally forgot about that too. I haven't played that game forever. Yeah.
    39:27
    Hey, so I want to talk about the drop target bingo card on the left, too. All right. So it's been a while since I've seen one of these in a game. And tell me about what your thought process of putting it in and exactly what do you do with it? I still haven't really figured out how to maximize it.
    39:49
    My thought process was I'm a big fan of the old tic-tac-toe games. Big Game was one of my favorite games growing up.
    39:58
    It was kind of lost and forgotten, and then Ripley's comes along and kind of does its own implementation. The thing I didn't like about Ripley's, though, was it was really hard to get those squares.
    40:10
    So I wanted to make it more upfront in gameplay. So I decided to go with the squares that kind of rove. So you choose, you lock it in. It's not random like Ripley's where you're trying to nudge it into a lane.
    40:25
    and the awards are not locked in either. So you have to use the LCD screen to see what, you know, bingo grids award, uh, what award. Uh, so that gave me a lot of flexibility in what I could do with it. So we got many wizards modes in there. We got six modes total, I think, and a bunch of other random awards.
    40:44
    Um, that is my thought process. I'm not sure if you need to elaborate. Yeah. So if, if you, uh, is there a bonus for, uh, blacking it out for getting like all nine squares or. uh the most you can do is i think you can get a quadruple bingo if you have the power gem on there so that is the most you can do so it's there's a list of awards that you see on the instant info and each time you collect the bingo uh you collect that award and the list moves up and there's a wizard in any wizard mode in there called computer frenzy so the more bingo grades you knock out the closer you get to computer frenzy and you you hit a bingo to light computer frenzy at the right ramp and then that he plays that mini wizard mode and then once you're done with that i think the the whole thing just resets i just got thinking about this where did the idea from the trophies come from because i i don't know why but every time i think of trophies i think of playstation when you unlock something you get a trophy for it for your your case was that kind of similar to this or was it just iron man has a lot of hardware in his in his tower so this we're putting trophies is the thing you can obtain uh yeah i can't answer that but yeah you're warm okay okay yeah i know i see a lot of feedback what does that have to do with avengers yeah it's like you're right it has nothing to do with avengers it has something to do with something else someday maybe hey it's still it's still fun i like it exactly it's it's reminiscent of every time Keith was holding up that that Pinberg trophy which is sadly we're not going to see anymore well something will happen no I okay here's my take on that yeah I know that we're all in semi-morning for uh the replay and Papa and what they're doing but the bottom line is the this isn't like 2002 2003 when the interest in pinball is waning and it's actually if anything it's on a crescendo and it's growing exponentially. And when all this craziness is over, there's enough interested parties to make something happen. And I don't know what that is going to be or how it's going to be implemented. But I think there will be some sort of Super Bowl winner take all of pinball again and probably something similar where it's like the you know, like Papa would be like the masters of it, where it's like, hey, an invitational to the top 64 players and see what you can do with the best of the best. But I still think something like that's going to happen. I know that's a clunky transition, but I don't know. What do you guys think? It was a sad day, wasn't it? Yes, very. Yeah.
    43:21
    As sad as it is, I mean, you've got to appreciate Kevin Martin and everything he put into that to keep it going out of his own pocket for all those years. So it's hard to blame him for it. It's like, yeah, I can't do this anymore. So, but kudos to him for making it what it was and what it could be.
    43:41
    And bummer for me because now I got to figure out what to do with the 30 games I have. I loaned them.
    43:49
    Yeah. Just bring them back to Chicago and start up Elwynn's basement or something. I'm so happy to get rid of all my storage units now.
    43:58
    Well, you can contact Logan's Arcade and see if they have an annex. Oh, yeah. There you go. The one that made me chuckle, though, Ian Harawar, who listens to the show, he posted, you know, looking at the 2020 IFPA numbers, he can safely say that he thinks that the dollar fee is what killed competition play. Yeah.
    44:17
    It's the Fight Club reset on the IFPA. It's needed. It's fine. Okay. I do want to talk more about Portal Locks. Apparently, that's the only thing I care about in this – is this game right now. So tell me about the Portal Locks. Tell me how – I know you get them by combos. but a lot of times I either get them either by doing a skill shot or by dumb luck. So how do you tell me to use the portal locks? Well, if you're saying dumb luck, you must be the one on the bingo grid. Oh, okay. Sure. Yeah. Because there is one there.
    44:51
    Obviously the secret skill shot, which is very hard. So that's not dumb luck. So either you're shooting combos or getting your super secret skill shot, or you are completing the correct line, bingo line, on the drop targets. That'll raise that disc up there. You shoot the ball in there. Your next quest will either be double value or triple value, depending on if you have one or two locks.
    45:18
    Yeah, this is a play dynamic I experimented with. I know other games have done it, but I'm not sure if they acted as multipliers as well.
    45:28
    I was kind of thinking, okay, it's like a physical multiplier. because as long as you have old-school Fathom style, as long as you have these amount of balls in play, that's your multiplier. As you drain one, then it goes down to 2x, and if you drain down to one ball, the scoring goes back to 1x. So that was my thought process behind that.
    45:47
    I'm just happy that the up-down disc has been pretty much flawless. That was something that I was worried about when we were designing that because it's never been done, and it seems fine. Well, you bring this up, and I know that you kind of talked about it in Insider, so I know maybe a handful of people haven't heard this yet. Because a lot of people refer back to it as Circus Voltaire. But you had mentioned in there that you knew that there were so much issues with Circus Voltaire. That's actually what pushed you towards this idea, correct?
    46:19
    No. Actually, it's funny. I never thought of it that way when I was designing it. I've owned two Circus Voltaires in my life too, which is funny. I just remember Circus Voltaire that spring. I hated that. so I'm the thing that Harrison designed looks like kind of a golf tee so it just it shoves the ball down that hole and does not come back out so that's just funny whenever I think of circus I just think of hitting that thing and not going down into the hole and me cursing at it getting rid of the game buying another one trying to get it was like oh now I remember why I got rid of this so we'll buy a third now and replace it with your mechanic you'll be good to go so i actually i found i thought i found a glitch because one time i had um i activated something and it was talking it was telling me to spin the disc but it was in the up position and oh super disc yeah that's that's the thing if you have that running when you when you got a portal lock yeah yeah so i was like i can't do this you can you can airball into it yeah Yeah, but actually, I will say that the best part about this game is there's so many wireform ramps. If I get an air ball, it's going to be caught by something.
    47:38
    Yeah, I remember we're looking at the whitewood and it's like, oh, my God, nobody's going to be able to see the ball.
    47:46
    Well, but that's the nice part about the premium because I played on Scott's LE. I still feel like I can see everything. I don't feel like I'm being blocked by wireforms. I'm sorry, but I then played as Ninja Turtles Premium, and I felt you can't see the top half of Turtles Premium because of the wire forms and the contraption in the middle for the diverter. And so I'm very impressed that you've included all this wire form, yet I don't feel claustrophobic is probably the best word I can think of. So ball vision is very important to me. All three of my games, especially with the upper flipper, I need to see the ball coming to the upper flipper. So I try to keep that as open as possible. Iron Maiden is a good example. I just wanted the ramps out of the way so you can see the ball going around those loops and just have good vision. To me, that's important.
    48:34
    Is that also why you did the – because in most games, when the ball comes back around to the upper flipper, it usually goes back through the back box and then comes around to the flipper. Or it usually makes the loop around back. With the Hawkeye one, it comes right in front. It almost displays the ball in front of you as it comes to your flipper. Was that part of the reason? Did you want a vision or is it just something different than what's been done before?
    48:56
    Yeah, I just wanted to do something different. I'm trying something different on the plunge for all my games. I was like, how cool would it be if you plunge into a ramp? You know, it's just, yeah, I was just trying something different. Yeah. Which is really cool. Yeah, it's great. And I will say that what you did on that potbelly ramp that comes around to return, that really, and I told Ray Day this, that it makes the upper flipper so much more usable. A lot of times with the upper flipper, the ball is screaming past it and you're hitting it and just hoping that something good happens. But the way you did the return, it actually makes the upper flipper a calculating shot, something that you can line up and do repeatedly, which I don't think I've ever seen any other game where I have reliably used the upper flipper as much as I do in this one. yeah i mean the upper flipper is primarily there to shoot the disc but i did give it a couple other shots yeah um so uh yeah just like jurassic i wanted a ramp that fed an upper flipper and uh obviously jurassic park when it's kind of a fast flowing uh through to the upper flipper and so this one i was like well we're actually going reverse gravity because it comes down in the back up again um so yeah it was a nice little nice little setup shot to shoot the disc hopefully But if or if you want to keep shooting that ramp or shoot the Hawkeye shots, well, the Hawkeye challenge, that is another one where it's just that stress test. Well, I probably I probably get it two out of 10 times just because it's stuck up into the tower. And then when it drops, you know, it's either too soon or too late or it is a hard shot. My biggest regret is I'm guessing most people have not seen the level three difficulty on that where the drop is random. Oh, yeah. No, I haven't. Yeah. So it goes, you know, get ready. And you're just like, wait, the ball didn't drop. So you think something's wrong. And then it just releases it without warning.
    50:54
    Like an amusement park. Yeah. So, yeah, we're going to put a fourth level in called the Carl D'Angelo Challenge. Nice. It's going to be a random drop. You have to shoot the Hawkeye and the middle drop target without shooting any of the other drop targets to win the fourth level. Oh, wow. What the fourth one should be, though, is it should drop randomly, but the up post stops the ball right before it gets to the flipper and then drops again. So that way it does like a psych thing.
    51:22
    Psych? Oh, yeah. That's great, though. I do love it. Okay. I also saw you post something, and I'm probably not as good of a player to figure out how to do this, but I saw you had two balls locked up in the Avengers Tower. Yes. Okay. So tell me how to do that. I've never been able to do that. So during Ironman multiball, especially with the new code update, you just shoot the two orange shots. Once you do that, it lights the tower for super jackpots. So you have 15 seconds to shoot two balls in there.
    51:59
    It's not always guaranteed to catch a second ball, but at least on mine at home, it's pretty consistent.
    52:05
    So, yeah, just 15 seconds, you shoot one for a super jackpot. and if you shoot another in there before time runs out you get a double uh super jackpot oh got it the old iron man rules you had to spin the disc first we got rid of that you could just shoot the tower now oh yeah because i i know the iron man uh it it seems that i end up starting it usually during a mode and so i'm just using the balls to fly around the play field and collect as many points as i possibly can yeah that's one of the reasons i boosted the scoring in a iron man multiball in 0.94 was i figured it was just being used as a vessel to further your quests so i wanted that one because it's harder to start than thor i wanted that one to at least have some scoring potential yeah yeah it definitely is you know i thought it'd be easy to do iron man uh but play on scott's i felt like because you can't just switch you know knowing keith you can't just do it the easy way you just press the flippers and do lane changes you got to hit the the disc to move those iron letters. And so it's surprisingly harder to get Ironman multi-ball than I thought it would be. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Well, that's why I implemented the, the other secret skill shot. So you just wait for the lit square when it gets to lock Um you shoot the the middle drop target and it awards you that square so uh try that uh usually when it on the uh the bottom left um square starts blinking that when you plunge and then by the time the ball gets to your flipper it should be on the lock square and if you hit the middle drop target there there's your instant uh iron man lock that's awesome is that a short plunge or a full there's a full plunge around the whole ramp and the middle drop target you it just has to include the middle drop target you can shoot the the top two the bottom two as long as the middle one's included it'll award whatever bingo square is flashing so if you hit the lock one when it's flashing that that saves you a lot of trouble yeah nice cool that i love that you have all these skill shots too like exploring jurassic park you can explore it just for the secret skill shots like there's four or five of them and it's just it's amazing yeah i like exploring things that are secret that's why i made the dna combos kind of a secret in the game release i didn't really tell anyone how to get them yeah um i i still smile with mr dna when he pops up so it's so funny my friend said can i get that as a ringtone so like sure and then hanging out with them i was like here's dinner name dinner name he's like that's awesome uh it's great so i i know that you talked on jurassic park you didn't want to do a flipper in it, an upper flipper, but as you started to play it, you just felt like something was missing. I know now with Avengers, you have an upper flipper. Are you trying to actively not put an upper flipper in maybe future titles because you feel like it's getting overplayed, or do you just love upper flippers? I love upper flippers. They're great.
    54:58
    It's funny because my wife, she doesn't play much pinball, but she's always like, make sure the games have upper flippers. Now we have Turtles, we have we'll have Avengers on the way we had Jurassic Park the only game I don't have an upper flipper is World Cup soccer so obviously we have a type so yeah yeah yeah no I like upper flippers my next game has one albeit it's uh it has an unusual twist um yeah I'll just leave that there I'll just leave that yeah a juicy morsel yeah I think it's so funny because we always Avengers has been out, what, two months now? Yeah. And it's funny because people are always like, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? And I got to admit, I really think this all blindsided us with Avengers because we weren't expecting another Keith Elwin game this year. Jurassic Park had been out since July of last year, and then all of a sudden here comes Avengers in September. Yeah, as a game designer, we don't stop until the game releases. We have to move on to the next project. Yeah. I will say it is amazing, though. Like when I when I found out that, yes, this next one and basically I knew about a couple hours before his release that it was you and it was zombie Yeti. And that was when I called and I said, I want an L.E. put me on the list because I was like, I have Jurassic Park, which is my next favorite game to play right next to it. And it's like I got to have the the long term one of this one. So nice. Well, just like Josh Sharpe said on our show. I mean, it's getting harder and harder because if you're releasing a game a year, now we're having to figure out what games we have to get rid of to get the next Keith Owen game. And I'm like, seriously, like I played Jurassic Park in the bars and whatnot, and I really enjoyed it. But now that I've gotten it home, it is addictive. It is just I can't even explain. Once you get that flow down and you get in the zone like everyone knows that feeling when when you feel like the flippers are getting closer together because you just can't drain. and you're hitting all the shots just beautifully, there's something magical happens. And with your games, it rewards you for that. It's not chopping wood. It's not doing this and that. And I love that you, especially in Jurassic Park, I don't know with Avengers yet, but you can stack everything. I felt like, well, I guess you can't stack T-Rex and control room modes, but I can knock out a dinosaur while I'm working on a T-Rex mode, or I can knock out a control room while I'm trying to capture another dinosaur. And it's just fantastic.
    57:27
    Thanks. I think the key to stacking is limit what you can't stack. Otherwise, it just becomes, hey, just stack everything. That becomes the thing. Right. Correct. Well, and I think you were talking about, if I remember correctly, you were talking about when you were starting up designing, Lyman said to make sure they don't just go for the multi-balls. Yeah, yeah. And so I've always thought about that, is that it does make it feel different when you're playing a game because when I'm playing on a single ball, you're taking targeted shots. When you're playing a multi-ball, especially that first 10 seconds, you're just hitting as fast as you can and looking at the flippers and knowing where the shots are but not really following where the balls are.
    58:14
    Yeah, yeah. Some people give you flack, oh, Thor Multi-Ball is not worth very much. It's like, dude, you hit the captive ball three times. Yeah. What do you want? That's the Bozo multiball for a reason. It's also not that hard, yeah.
    58:28
    However, it is good if you're trying to get that extra help, though, when you have that difficult soul gem. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a strategic multiball. It's a helper, the Thor helper. Yeah, I guess not soul gem, but one of the other power gems you're trying to just like, hey, I just need a few extra shots. So, yeah, the added thing on Avengers is all the drop target modes share a single timer. So if you start another mode while one's running, then that timer resets. So I think the party started, is what Raymond calls it. Once he starts one, he'll play that for a while, and then the timer starts getting low, he'll try to bring in another one to reset the timer.
    59:10
    Yeah. And so that is basically how all the – because it doesn't really seem like when they're attacking you, You brought up the Deadpool thing. When they're attacking you, that seems to be more of just like how long you are taking, right? It's kind of a controlled descent on your power level, right? Yeah, yeah. It's basically just a bonus for finishing it faster. But you can't lose. You only lose by draining.
    59:35
    Well, but I also – like I love on Jurassic Park though, like T-Rex multiball can be as lucrative as you want it to be or as what your skill range can be. You know, if you're able to hit all those shots and then start the T-Rex, feed T-Rex, man, you can blow that game up. So long as you're paying attention to you got to hit the red arrows, not the blue ones. And just yesterday I got one hundred seventeen million on that. I was just I felt like I like I was King Kong. Like it's just it amazes me the more and more I am discovering about these games. And I cannot wait to get Avengers. Like I cannot wait to explore this game as well. And the problem is you've ruined other games for me, Keith. Seriously, I can't go up to a 90s game now. I had Attack from Mars. It was enjoyable. It really is. It's a fun game. There's a reason it's towards the top of the list. But it feels like it's missing something now because of the depth of the games that our recent games have had. And I feel like you're pushing pinball further because I don't know if it's because we all have ADHD or what it is. And so our brain demands more while we're playing pinball. but it's funny because like Jurassic Park just feels like to me, it hits that itch that I didn't know I needed in pinball.
    60:47
    Oh, thank you. Yeah. My goal is to not necessarily have the deepest game in the world, but have a game with multiple paths.
    60:56
    Yeah. I think that is certainly the key to a fun game where you don't want to just plot through the same path every single time. Yes. and also it's important to me to have some kind of basic gameplay so uh iron maiden you know pretty much every shot works towards the cyber multi-ball uh obviously Jurassic Park that the paddock is the main you know base gameplay and Avengers you're collecting Avengers as your base gameplay so I want every shot to mean something in some way not just all or nothing well you didn't get a motor multi-ball you're just shooting shots so um yeah that's my philosophy right there love it everything about it it's just it's fantastic seriously i i'm sorry i sound like a little fanboy crushing i do apologize yeah i'm pretty turned off right now but no i just i if you haven't played a keith l1 game please do yourself a favor go out to your favorite your favorite game place or rent one for a month the whopping 200 bucks you support someone local and play one of these because there's a reason that Keith's games are all in the top 20 of Pinside easily. Last time I checked, Avengers is at 9. Jurassic Park is at 2. And Iron Maiden I want to say is at maybe 13. I can't remember. I do apologize.
    62:18
    That's saying something. All of your games are just up there. There's got to be a reason for it. Thank you, sir.
    62:27
    Sorry, Scott. throwing you off on a tangent again. Oh, no, it's fine. No, I was actually just thinking of anything else. I mean, legitimately, you've kind of become my go-to designer for the last games that will be leaving the house. So, yeah, it's right.
    62:47
    It's pushing the boundaries on what we're doing in pinball, which is an express train to a new frontier that we didn't think was possible. because pinball has been around for almost 100 years.
    63:00
    Oh, yeah. I've loved it since I was a kid. I'm enjoying myself. So we heard that you're going for the big franchises now, and we saw that Disney Princesses are on this list. So when are we going to get our Heath Elwyn Disney Princesses game? That's what I really want to know. That's what the families across America want. Josh wants to collect all the princesses. That's what he wants to do. I want to get my Gorillas pin done. Yes. Oh, yeah. A little Clint Eastwood. Oh, yes. That would be awesome. Wait, are you talking gorillas like the band? Yeah. Okay. The cartoon band. How amazing would that be?
    63:37
    Actually, that would be pretty good. Yeah. Well, I don't think it's been done yet because they're more of a – I guess it depends on your definition of gorillas, but they're more of a hip-hop mix. We haven't really had that in pinball yet. That would be amazing to see. Yeah. That artwork, though? Man.
    63:54
    Wait, have you seen them live? well kind of they had that movie that came out right like that was the animated uh concert movie they do that i think so yeah no that'd be legit i would i would back that but then again like like jeff teela said i think we kind of made laundry day trending on on facebook when when you talked about that so people are really looking forward to their keith l1 laundry day game so yeah you Household chores. That's one of my favorite Simpsons episodes where they have the yard work simulator. That's kind of where I'm thinking there.
    64:32
    That would be amazing. Sounds a little Tom Sawyer-esque where you're getting someone to do your work.
    64:39
    The paint the fence multi-ball. Yeah. Oh, God. Well, Keith, I know that we've come up on basically an hour, But we know – one, do you need any more hats? And two, we have a hoodie that we are just releasing that we'd love to send you a copy of that. Well, duh. Yeah. I could use another hat. Yeah. We just barely wrapped them up, so we'll get that sent off. Go ahead and contact us, too, if any of the listeners are interested in getting one of those suckers. Josh just got a new It's actually a pretty fun hoodie design Because we had a few requests for that So we'll go ahead and throw that up on the Facebook page too Yeah we just barely finalized it So we'll definitely I'll shoot you a picture of it Keith I know Kate we sent a picture to her Because when we talked to you last time about our beanies You're like you gotta talk to Kate She's the one when it comes to fashion She'll lead you straight So she's actually been helping us a little bit with it too I just wore the beanie I think two days ago Nice There you go. This lovely Chicago weather.
    65:47
    It's got to be better than this Utah weather. It bounces from single digits up to what we're 40, 45 today. It's goofy. Okay, but I wear the old school beanie, the one with like the pom-pom on the top and the stripes. Oh, yeah. That's the one I've been rocking. The 70s beanie. Yeah, exactly. It's because it's fleece lined and like this isn't a secret, but you're bald. Yeah, yeah.
    66:11
    Hey, you know what? my dad always said uh we gotta only create a a few perfect heads in the world the rest he had to put hair on so i think that pretty much wraps up unless you have something else for us keith that you want to you want to talk about that it doesn't have to be pinball related you know so uh well since it's covet i'm not really doing much so uh oh wait wait i i saw something you posted a drone footage was that like oh yeah yeah yeah so were you flying around your apartment what was that yeah so that was a racing drone uh also have a camera drone uh that's something yeah that's my covet hobby uh it's flying drones around here having a virtual life through them so you got the real question is are you going to go professional though because i know they've got some insane stuff with with the drone racing and whatnot oh yeah a couple of my co-workers are uh do drone racing. They're actually the ones that got me into it. So, uh, it's something I've been screwing around with, but, uh, yeah, they take it way more seriously than I do, but, uh, it's, it is fun.
    67:14
    Wow. Yeah. It's way cool. Yeah. I had no idea that was a thing, so I'll have to check that out. You have never watched the drone races on TV.
    67:24
    No, I didn't, I didn't even know this was a thing. I thought this was a fantasy. So yeah, it's a thing. It's, it's fun.
    67:32
    All right. I recommend it. Yeah, well, we're going to get you some swag out for you, Keith, and I think we'll go from there. And so we really do always appreciate you coming on, chit-chatting with us. And so, yeah. Awesome. Thanks for having me. For sure. I can't remember if you want people to contact you or not.
    67:53
    Oh, yeah. Probably swag I can give out. If you want to contact Keith, how do you get contacted? You don't. That's a beautiful thing. Perfect. Send a drone. Yes, send a drone. Send a letter. Perfect.
    68:12
    A postcard. Anywho. Yeah. If you want to contact us, you can find us on Facebook at Loser Kid Pinball. We're also on Instagram and Twitch. Or if you want to get a hold of us the old school way, Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. We are coming up on episode 50. That is next. if you're looking to submit a clip you got to do it by the 5th which I want to say is this upcoming Saturday so we've already got a handful of clips there's some wonderful people that have dropped their voices and we'll be putting them on this show and we'd love to hear from you too so got anything for us Scott?
    68:49
    you know what stay safe during the holidays support what you can with your local pinball places and pick up a new machine pick up a new adventures go ahead and put it home and you can uh just play to your heart's content until the covid ends oh oh one more thing before we go ryan kaz mr ryan c himself it was his birthday the other day so if you can wish him a happy birthday and i heard that you love sweet dancing moves and so if you'll just record yourself dancing and send them to him it would really brighten his day. You can win a twerpy with that.
    69:26
    Yes. Best dance moves. Oh. And Keith would know. If you want professional advice on winning a twippy, Keith's the man. So get your dance moves into Ryan so you can get that twippy for sweet dance moves. I want a twerpy. That's my goal now. Oh, yeah, twerpy. Well, the real question is, are you going for a final round reach around? Oh, my God. that's that's their new awards we're family friendly hey i did i did not i did not write what the name of the the award was all right all right take it up with jeff and martin if you don't like the name of it i i originally were called the roundy i was fine with the roundy all right all right all right we better shut this down before it gets any worse thanks again Keith alright no problem shut up and sit down
    70:48
    We'll be right back.