Is it Bond 60th? Yeah, 60th. I can never remember the year. But it's really hard to find a Bond 60th, right? But one of the shots from Bond 60th is in a Diamond Lady. You could find a Diamond Lady for like $1,700. So if you just think it's cool, like you know what I'm talking about, where there's the shot on the left-hand side that it has a really cool return to it. It almost reminds me of like a reverse question mark maybe. Exactly. That's in Diamond Lady. So you think they took inspiration from Diamond Lady? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Now I want to check it out. It's really cool. And there are iterations to it. Like Keith's thing is actually cooler. Like there's some kind of more things you can do there. But it is that same return and that same idea, like the ball using its kind of like energy, you know, to return it safely back. Super cool stuff. So I'm just saying like we appreciate that just as much as the new stuff. Yeah, exactly. No, it's cool. And I think, you know, one thing before we get to Dungeons and Dragons, I think the one thing that I kind of picked up and I don't want to say it was necessarily inspired by the magazine, but maybe maybe just maybe just us talking a lot like Ian plays a lot of competitive pinball like a tournament play. and I feel like the magazine showcases a lot of like people getting together and playing and I used to just play mostly at home and I think I started to really enjoy pinball more and this is one of the things that we were talking about today with various people at Stern is like I'm enjoying pinball way more now getting out and hanging out because I'm meeting cool people that also like pinball so you can nerd out on all the stuff like like we just did like what we just talked about totally and i'm not gonna like front like i'm some amazing tournament player i i like playing you know you enjoy that whole like environment a hundred percent and i will say like a a lot of our writers and photographers are are quite big and into tournament the tournament scene and our tournament directors and um yeah i think that's like the part that keeps people in pinball otherwise like that that's what makes it feel alive and like now you know uh is like it's people are out there like having fun like we just got back from interium like it was literally this was a crazy tournament there's 102 yeah that was a lot of people it was crazy and he said their monthly tournaments are usually about that and i think that's um yeah it's a lot of people in a room playing pinball together and it was cool it's like all ages like there's like young people there was quite old people roger sharp played in it um roger sharp was funny because uh i was with uh, Vic and he didn't know that that was Roger Sharp. And I was like, Hey, the guy who saved pinballs right there. He's like, shut up. And I'm like, that's him. And he's up. Oh my gosh, that is him. I'm like, yeah, well that's the guy. He kind of looked amazing tonight. He looked like a, like a cowboy from heaven or something. He did have like kind of this like turtleneck thing. Yeah. It was really cool. I was like, damn, I took a couple of pictures of him playing X-Men. Cause I was like, he, he was not, uh, he was not having good balls on X-Men when I saw him. well it's a tough game and you know he ass kicker he does make mustaches look good like he definitely he can wear a mustache i'm like trying to grow it i'm realizing i haven't gone through this part of puberty yet it's a bummer it looks great man thanks dude i really appreciate that all right so i'm going to paint the picture of today a little bit yeah let's get into it so this is like maybe the third time stern's done this and just for those of you that don't know they invite people and that they consider media, which could be someone that does Instagram or whatever platform they use to cover pinball. So there's all different people. There's YouTubers, there's bloggers, there's people that have – I said YouTube already, but whatever, podcasts. Just only YouTubers and bloggers. And one – no. And like a magazine guy, some Twitch streamers. But yeah, so I like that they do this because I feel like in the past, how you got information about a game is you basically just watched a trailer and you just speculated on how it was. And even when you watch the live stream, you can get a little bit from a live stream. But at the same time, until you actually experience it, it's really hard. So I think it's a smart move by Stern to do this because I think it's them saying, like, hey, look, if people are going to talk about it, I'd rather have them talk about it after experiencing it versus like just speculating on a bunch of stuff. Yeah. No. It's smart. For sure. And I think just pinball is an in-person thing. Yeah. It's really hard to pull stuff from a video. Like when we played the game, I think you do. You understand it differently for sure. Yeah. So basically they invited us all in. We got in there. They did a factory tour. Ian and I hung back because we've done it before. And I think – I felt like such a like – A little bit of a prima donna. Oh, I've been on the tour. No, not necessarily that. I think it's more like look how I'm dressed, guys. It's kind of like a senior in high school who's got like senioritis. It was like that was the vibe. I'm like, bro, I just like want to like play pinball. Well, there's also some pretty cool games in the lobby. That's what I'm saying is, like, y'all, like, if you are going to be at Stern, the lobby is just, like, every Stern game that you could want to play. And so, yeah, we were just, like, having fun on Black Knight Sword of Rage. And we had a great time. Yeah, it was super fun. You walked away with, like, a new appreciation. And the only downside to that is, like, I'm sure it's because that would suck if your office was, like, in there. You know what I mean? That's true. It's turned down. Like, all the sounds are turned way down. And that is a game where I'm just like, bro, let's crank it up. Yeah, exactly. They had a weird – it was kind of a weird thing because they just re-ran Black Knight Sword of Rage. And it was like this – it was an engineering version of the game. So it had the premium play field. It had the LE armor. It had the pro speakers. It had the topper. I didn't catch what the art – if the back glass was actually – so much more observant than i am i'm like it was a black knight sort of bridge and i know it was a premium because it had an upper play field yeah well that well i did get that part but anyway so that was fun and and uh so so anyway so ann and i hung back on that and honestly they weren't really selling that the factory tour was going to be all that interesting this time because they were like yeah no one's in here right now because we're doing it's an inventory day so there was no one making anything so to me i don't know how interesting that would be because to me it's interesting when you see all the like humans making the games i mean i just felt like we had been there for wick and like i i took like the pictures i needed like it's cool like it's cool to see everything being made um but yeah i guess it was just more valuable to me like hang out just to hang out and like something that i try to practice what i preach on this is like i think for those of us in pinball media like it's important to remember why you are here which is like pinball's fun and like you should have fun like it wasn't going to be fun for me to like walk through that factory for like an hour and a half i would rather like sit with you and um we play with john um from stern he was like our chaperone to make sure that we weren't seeing anything bad yeah they have like they they kind of escort you around which is good they should do that yeah we're a bunch of creeps so well and there's interesting stuff back there that you kind of see but you can't really see exactly stuff is going down across that wall but you can't really see it so yeah but it was just like more fun to like do that with you guys so that we did that for a while and then we got to go well this was the benefit i didn't know i feel like you kind of knew this might have happened but i wasn't really i just knew like if you hang with people that started they're gonna bring you to the places yeah exactly so we were um we finished up playing i'm actually by the way i am glad that there were people that didn't get a chance before to see the factory to see it because it is a very impressive 100 i'm not like crapping at it but you can watch their content on that right for sure so anyway so they did that and then one of the cool things is we were because we were done with we were done with our game he's like hey do you wanna like do you want to just go into the room now and you can see dungeons of dragons now and I was like I looked at Ian I'm like yeah that's not even I was like let's literally just drain our balls right now I thought that I was like should we just like leave uh right now now Sure Yeah So we walked into the room and as we walked in it was interesting because it like I guess there was a did you know this part There was a morning session for distributors. I didn't know that. I didn't know. I'm learning that right now. So Brian and Dwight had done the same thing that we just experienced before that. Poor guys. So basically we walk in, Dwight and Brian, Brian, Eddie, and Dwight, Sullivan are there. And so one, the game designer, one, the code developer, code developer being Dwight and the game designer being Brian. And they basically were like, look, we're just going to give you a full rundown of the game before you can play it. And it was a very long it was a very long and very detailed rundown, which I appreciated. But I will say that, like, they were getting into very, very granular code details. And I was like, dude, I check out kind of that stuff. And it's not in a disrespectful way. it's this i can't not at all can't compute it like brian brian eddie is my favorite game designer and i still yeah i'm like just and i love dwight too but i was just like bro like just because we're also like in a room with three dungeons and dragons like every single person there's just like uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh like just like let me we all wanted to play it obviously and it was a great talk like it it is a crazy i mean the amount of detail that has gone into this game and like the coding like when people like i don't like code like it seems like it's just like a fallback kind of thing i'm like i dare people to say that about this one because i just think yeah like yes the code even now was like super early like obviously like there it was like i'm not gonna say it wasn't you could go everywhere like you could go everywhere there were multi balls coded into it like all the elements of like the dungeon part of it all part was i mean coded maybe not completely but there's definitely paths in it that you can go and take, and there's things, different ways you go are going to give you different things, like a dead end or a battle or something like that. And what is kind of cool about this one is that it is, like, its weakness is its strength in that it is, like, very heavily reliant on code, I think this game is. Yeah, for sure. But that's cool because they're talking about they're going to roll out, like, more bad guys or, like, more monsters to fight. Like, you know, there's going to be like 38 different monsters. They said 38. And then he's like, and then Dwight's Dwight had made like some like under not under his breath, but like almost like, hey, I Brian, we're going to do more than that. Like, we're going to do even more than that. So that's cool. So they have all these like big ambitions for. And I talked to Dwight and I was like, were you ever a DM? And he was like, oh, I forgot to tell this story. So I can say this now. But he was like, not only was I a dungeon master. He's like, I actually started a Dungeons & Dragons club in his town or something like that. He was like, no, for sure. And he's a guy who's obsessed with board games. And I was like, was this really fun for you? Because it seems like he got to have a really big hand not just in coding the game and thinking about rule sets, which is a strength of his. But I also think he got to flex some of his creative muscle. And like, so he worked with this storyteller and was like, how do we translate this into pinball rules? Which is like, that's just such a cool, he's the perfect guy for that exercise, like to do it. Well, and he kept saying this thing that like stuck with me. He's like, look, whenever we were deciding how deep the story should get, we'd always tell ourselves. But at the end of the day, it's a pinball machine. So like the story can be cool, but it's got to, your end logic is this is pinball. So how do I make it still feel like a pinball machine? but like yet go kind of like be interesting in the storytelling and some of the like this is totally the like like um and sorry to talk over you there you're not okay word but uh this is totally the like king crimson or like some of those prog rock bands or like rush or something like that they're like pushing the limits of like what a pinball coding like yeah kind of can be and like because not only is there like okay so yeah all the stuff you would want in a dungeons and dragons again it's like you're saving progress you're leveling up they talked about dude something that was really cool that they took they were like something we didn't like about venom was the higher your level got the easier the game the game they're like no in dungeons and dragons it's going to be like when you play a game and like as you level up the bad guys level up so if you fought like three rats when you're a level two it's like when you're level seven you're gonna fight like you know five to seven rats or something like that kind of stuff is just like oh that's like really cool and that's like a way as like you get better at the game it becomes more challenging for you like as you're playing it i i do think sometimes like stern sells themselves short in the sense that like what they said in there while it was really long-winded i was like holy crap i was thinking to myself like wow to like basically what we just said they took it to a level that was like very thoughtful of like how are we gonna make this interesting from a dnd perspective but like also it's a pinball machine so how do we even bring these two worlds together and i feel like they did at least in the early code we played and it's very early obviously still i felt like it was pretty like it was pretty fun in its basic form the way we absolutely and i thought it flowed well it was fun like the shots are fun like there's that one shot that's under the um there's like you can kind of get the ball over to underneath the gelatinous cube yeah and then it'll let it out and there's this right flipper and you can kind of like if you hit it right it kind of goes around this little orbit yeah it's super fun like it's one of those things where there's sometimes when you hit a shot you're like oh that was so cool that was cool like there's a lot of those in there i hate to so anyone who knows nudge knows that my favorite game is the shadow and that's brian eddy's first game and up up to this point that is the only three flipper Brian Eddy ever existed. He does only fan layouts other than that with two flippers. Like Medieval Madness, Attack on Mars. Do you think that you would consider this... I know there's some debate. I was actually looking it up online the other day. Can a three flipper game be a fan layout? No, I don't think so. In my definition, no. It didn't feel like that to me. Venom, you look at it and you're like, that's a fan layout. you know what i mean it is well and that's what i'm saying so he has stuck really to this like traditional fan layout for a long time so like dude for me my favorite game is his first game where it was a three flipper this one's a three flipper it has a loop it has some fun like there are multiple shots out of that upper flipper that are like fun yeah they're really fun he's he's like still i mean this is like gonna be i don't want to be like hot takey but to me i was like dude Brian Eddy feels back with this game. It feels like a good Brian Eddy game. I think it's fun. I think it's giving a lot of people what they want. I mean, it was cool to hear him talk about it, but I didn't give a shit until we started playing it. Well, true, and I was kind of piecing it together. I think some of it was coming back to me as I was playing, but most of it I was just like, I just need to discover it for myself. Yeah, and you just want to see how the shots feel, and yeah it feels good i think the art is cool i think having a bottom third that is both it has to function as a map so that's something that's interesting about this game is someone at stern actually compared it to jurassic park which i think is really smart because in jurassic park you know you kind of there's a forking path and you sort of decide right which way you go through it this is like jurassic park except for you can go backwards right or you could go somewhere else like you're truly roaming around this map yeah and that that's really cool i thought that was cool i think the characters having different strengths right off the bat is cool like that you you do want to be like aware of that like there's a i can't remember there's like a female character that her shield time is longer so yeah and and like the shield ended up being something i really thought was cool so like let's say you start the dragon multi-ball well the the dragon holds i think three balls yeah and then so the dragon has has three balls in it that you don't see they're just pre-loaded in there and then there's five balls in the game and so it's an eight ball multi ball and the thing is you can hit your shield and then sort of like like imagine you're it's like almost like i'm gonna i'm going to uh hoard my ammo so i can unleash it on the dragon and that's what i was thinking when i did it the only cap the only thing that i had that was uh elizabeth the geese key who did some of the code on the game not like to the level dwight did she helped with the code i don't know the all of i think this was like an all hands on deck game because it's so deep they were talking about like hundreds of lines of dialogue like yeah so they were all working on it yeah so she was there while we were playing and we didn't mention this earlier so there was a limited edition a premium and a pro and they were kind of in that order and um she was just hanging back because she wanted to see like our reaction to certain things she's like this is awesome because I get to see the things that you like or the things that on your face you're like oh I'm not not the biggest fan and then she's also like I'm all I'm gonna very much observe if I find bugs because I can see them she's like you don't even know it's a bug sometimes yeah but to me I do she goes when I look at the game I almost look at it like matrix like like I'm looking at all the code to see like what's going on meaning like the ball did something and the LCD said this, but it really probably should have done this instead. But she did mention I was playing and I was like, I couldn't get my shield up. And she's like, what's going on? I was like, I couldn't, I can't get the shield up. And she goes, oh, you have to like quick hit it. And I go, why? And she goes, well, I guess I can say that. She's like, well, Dwight liked it better to quick hit it. She goes, but I think that people are going to hold it for too long and then the shield's not going to come up she's like so i think we might need to revise that because i couldn't and i heard other people saying they couldn't figure out the shield because you have to like very much you have to so what it's doing i never had a problem with it i'll say that so i must be a quick hitter i don't know you must be like i had to register basically like the button is looking for a like a quick open close and if it's open for too long then it just doesn't launch sure yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. That shield mechanism is even, like, that's interesting to me, like how that, because, like, you're talking kind of about the coding of it, but also the design of it was really cool, where as balls are trapped against the flippers and the shield, if you just hit the flipper hard, it auto-hits ramps for you. It sets the shot up. I know. I didn't get a chance to, I think you told me that after we were kind of done playing. I saw it several times, and they're like, that's a feature of this game. I'm like, that's actually incredible. It's like when you need this shot, like there was a time when the extra ball was lit, and I watched Tyler White, like he just like hit the shield button, let it sit there, and just like slapped it up, and it auto did it. It's like that's really cool design. That's so smart. Like I've never seen something used that way. Yeah, no, that is cool. The whole thing, honestly, like my initial, like we were talking before this a little bit, And I'm like, man, I don't know. Like, I always feel like when people record things like this, everyone wants you to say, like, do you like it? Would you want to buy it? And blah, blah, blah. But right now, in the way it was, all I can really say, I think, is that I had a lot of fun with it. And we were all, like, really having fun with it. So I, like, want to keep playing it. Like, I want to play it more to discover more of, like, what they're going to do. And I'm excited about what they could potentially do with it. I did think that this is, yeah, this is. I get into like the, the like models because I do feel like I have a, I have a definite different opinion on like what one, if I was going to buy one or a recommend one. Yeah. I mean, I think that's interesting. Well, I, yeah, I definitely, well, so I'm someone who's not like a, you know, premium usually is just would be like a luxury that I wouldn't entertain. And I think for this one, the pro is really good. It's really good. It's really good. You're getting basically everything except for the dungeon the dungeon crawl and the the dragon's a little less animatronic right yeah and like who cares i played a bunch of games on the pro and it played great like it played super fun the shot even functions the same as the dungeon like it the same shot you just don't have the pop-up it just goes into wherever that saucer is or whatever into a fuck or whatever yeah it it is it felt put it this way i think i spent the most time on the pro i played the le first so yeah it's very rare to play the better the better model first with everything in it and then go to the pro and be like oh i'm happy and i was having just as much fun the gelatinous cube functions exactly the same way i think even doesn't the um dragon even shoots out the balls the same does it i know the animatronic part maybe i didn't notice that i honestly that's the crazy thing i don't i don't remember i don't remember i didn't really notice but the one thing This was crazy to me is when we did come into the room with Dwight and Brian. The freaking dragon's huge. Like, I didn't expect it to be that big. It was bigger than I thought, too. Because when I walked up to it, I was like, holy shit, the dragon's big. When people were comparing it to, like, oh, it's like Jurassic Park, it's like, no. It's bigger than Jurassic Park. Yeah, it's way bigger. Like, I was like, holy crap, that's pretty impressive. And I think the, like, I think if I was approaching this game as, like, a casual player, too, it's pretty straightforward how to tell someone like hey you spell dragon by hitting the targets underneath it and then there's a right shot that you have to hit and now you've got multi-ball so like you can kind of teach someone probably how to play it in like it where it's approachable for someone that's like a they said player and they mentioned that they were like this is a game that we wanted it to be like someone right yeah like someone who's deep into the code can understand it and someone who's walking up for the first time and just being like i just want to like kill a dragon like i'm gonna hit the dragon you know like yeah we'll understand the dragon battle thing it's pretty cool it's kind of crazy it's just kind of fun with that many balls of the shield and actually don said this and i was like dude i kind of like this like he said something and i was like don that's actually really brilliant okay not to say actually yeah yeah so yeah no it was brilliant that makes it sound like he doesn't say brilliant things yeah i'm trying to say that yeah yeah so uh you played contra right on the nes or in the arcade yeah You know the spread gun in Contra? Totally. It does have that vibe. He's like, dude, it's like the spread gun because you can launch all your balls at the dragon. I was like, shit, that's actually pretty awesome. It is. Yeah, stop saying actually. Yeah, that's it. Am I saying actually a lot? It's just like, yeah, it was actually really smart. Am I actually saying actually a lot? It was actually really smart and insightful. Yeah, definitely. It does feel that way. It's super fun. it's weird because it's all about like you're just trying to hit the dragon and it's constantly draining balls really and you're just trying to prevent the balls from draining I need to remember this part maybe you remember this there is a thing though when you do have the shield up and you're battling the dragon there's I can't remember it's counting how many balls are draining and I don't remember how that's working against you it doesn't work against you in some way right you don't want too many to drain because you're trying to hit it while it's shooting you right yeah it gives you x amount of balls that you can drain and then x amount of times you have to hit the dragon to get there and like but once you drain too many i think you just you lost the battle you die yeah it's done yeah because the drain is almost like you getting injured right exactly yep yeah yeah so that was cool the character i think the the in the so i didn't i didn't get deep into this with elizabeth she was walking around kind of trying to tell me because she's like oh start in this city this city's better or this city's easier or So, like, the two bottom cities on the map, I don't know if she told you this, those are the easier cities. Oh, no, I didn't know that. So she's like, even though you could pick any of them, she's like, my suggestion would be to pick the lower ones first on the map and then, like, work your way up. So I don't know if that's going to change. Obviously, code does change, but she was saying it was like an easier path, which is cool. The dungeon crawl thing, how that worked was, like, you'd – it's not a video mode, really. It looks like it. It looks like a video mode. Yeah. So, like, the back box is showing you on the LCD, you're in the dungeon, right? And, like, you've got to move forward. So to move forward, there's a spinner that's on a shot that's almost, like, directly in front of you. You hit that, and then you progress forward. Yeah. And then you've got, like, a right, left, or straight option. And I think at that point, you're using the flippers. To decide, yeah. But, like, she told me, she was like, look, because the cool thing about it is, so this map, the dungeon crawl is unique. in that week that you play it. So if I play it next week, the map changes, which is actually cool because if it didn't change, then I'd go, oh, if I go left, it's a dead end, or I go right, I get some jewels or whatever. That's cool to me because it would be boring if you would just go right, left, straight, and you know it every time. Yeah, no, it seems like they've really, they've added enough different kinds of assets that they can randomize this stuff, and it can truly be different. Like, it's cool. Like, you know, how they have like roguelite games and things like that. Like this feels sort of in that genre of pinball, which is like interesting. OK, so the reason why you're looking at me right now and not me and Ian is because my camera died as we were recording the podcast. So unfortunately, the rest of the podcast is going to be audio only. Luckily, I was recording the audio only. So I'm going to bring you back into the episode. But from here on out, it's just going to be audio. Sorry about that. Stuff happens. and uh we were just having a good time so i just didn't see it that's the question i didn't wasn't even thinking this like what if your game's not connected like how does it work and it basically just it's just it totally randomizes randomizes all the time yeah which is cool yeah so it just won't be so instead of you getting the new map every time you're just it's just always random but yeah and both you and i are members of a very exclusive club now in that we both got the mxv yeah that was pretty cool yeah that was pretty cool that was like uh and i do remember how to do it but i won't i won't say i'll say i don't remember see he he actually like remembered what he did i was like oh my gosh this is awesome and then i didn't know how i did it yeah well because they don't tell you how to do it so for y'all who maybe don't know mike vinicore is an amazing pinball player and he's someone who uh they will code an mxv skill shot into a lot of stern games You know, I was wondering if I was you listening to this, I'd be like, I want to know how the MXV skillshot came to be. So here's Mike Vinacore talking about how the MXV skillshot came to be a reality. So I go run into Keith's office. I'm like, you shouldn't make this a skillshot. I just did it. And I told him what it was. He goes, oh, that's good. He goes, well, why don't we name it after you? I'm like, what do you mean? I thought it was ribbing me. I'm like, there's no way this is true. He goes, we'll call it the MXD Super Skill Shot. And we'll name it after you. And it will become a thing. I'll let you have one in every game that I do. Now, I didn't know that that had a limit of two games. So we did it. And the people really liked it. And then I designed one in Jurassic Park. And then people really liked that. And then I get to do one in Deadpool. I get to do one in Stranger Things. I did one in James Bond. I pitched one for Godzilla. And I don't know if they'll ever make it in. But they did like it. But it's not up to me. So Keith was right. It became a thing, and a lot of people are like, I love your skill shots. And I'm just like, I can't believe that there's even a skill shot named after me, but I'm glad that people like it. It's always something crazy. I think in Deadpool, you do a full, it goes all the way around and then once more into the lock.