The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round. Hello once again, my name is Jeff Teolis. My name is Martin Robbins. Welcome everybody to the Final Round Pinball Podcast. Episode 10. Yeah, double digits. Middle finger to the single digits because that's all you are. You know, combined with Head to Head and Pinball Profile, we've done hundreds and hundreds of these. But together, to be double digits, ten, it's a big deal. Well, technically, we've also done episodes together on Pinball Profile and on Head to Head. So they surely count as well. Some on Slam Tilt Podcast for that reason, too. I guess what we're trying to say is we are the frickin' anchor of this pinball network. Without us, they're dead in the water. They should be worshipping the ground we walk on. I'm just saying that. I'm trying to be humble, but you know you feel it too, don't you, Marty? I do. It's very hard to be humble. And now with episode 10, Keith Elwin's next game. Try to catch up to final round. It's an uphill climb, baby, because this show is going to blow stuff up. I'm telling you. Yeah. If you want to know everything about Keith's next game, sure, we may or may not tell you. How dare you? You know I've got the goods, Marty, and you're going to hear it soon, but I'm going to just dangle it out there for a little bit longer. No scrubbing, no fast-forwarding, because you might miss it. Correct. You're just going to have to listen to this whole thing, which I'm sure you do. Most people should honestly listen to it three or four times. It's that good of a show. It's hard to reach around and pat myself on the back. It's hard to what? It's hard to reach around and pat yourself on the back. The reach around I can do. Yeah. Get your freaking head out of the gutter. Yeah. Ten episodes, all quality. We have children listening who are horrified, but they're listening, so we've got to be careful. One of these days, we will do a family-friendly show. Well, we may do. That's another tease. It really is. For us, I guess. Let's tell people what we've been up to for the last couple of weeks. How about you, Marty? so i've i've obviously been streaming and i've still been trying to get my head into this whole ifpa challenge thing and i've been effectively issuing people challenges on stream so they can challenge me to do whatever they want and so my next stream well after i'm going to be streaming lord of the rings because i have finally finally repaired it a good friend of mine lucas came over a couple of nights ago and repaired it i love that you say i have repaired it and then oh lucas did it well what'd you do take off the glass i was the project manager on this did you have a little safety hat i and i did actually take the glass off so there there was that but you know i i oversaw i provided refreshments so that happened so again i'm just going to be saying to people you can challenge me on any one of my four machines to any one of my many machines and I've got to get that challenge in the next game. Otherwise, it's over. I am getting ready to do my first ICR challenge only from the guy who was recently noted on IFPA as the number one ICR player, Nick Greenan, here in Ontario. He wanted to challenge me to World Cup Soccer 94. We haven't played yet. I've been busy and stuff, but that is coming soon. Coming for you, Nick. I'm in trouble. The guy knocked me out in the Ontario finals, too. This kid's amazing. He's 16, 17 years old. Like many great kids, this guy's got my number, but I'm brushing up on World Cup soccer. Let's just say that. Well, I'll tell you an interesting thing about streaming this week that sort of came out, I guess, is that I can't remember who they're called, but whoever is the governing body of copyright for the music industry is now cracking down on Twitch streams. So you've watched my stream and you know how much I love playing music. I can no longer do that. What if it's music from the game itself? Like if you were to stream a music pin, Metallica, ACDC, and that's in. Well, funny you should say that, because whenever I streamed Iron Maiden in the past, they would mute out certain songs of the whole stream, because it's copyright protected, even though it's in the game. How do I feel about that? This is the first I'm hearing of it, so I'm trying to figure out how I feel about that. Well, because if you're, let's say you're commentating, and the music's in the background, it doesn't just cut the music out, it cuts all audio out. So if you're talking about the game, you're talking about the rules and it's got the music in the background, you can't hear any of it. So, I mean, I guess from their perspective, they don't care. You're playing music that's copyright, so they're going to mute it out. But it's, you know, I think it's just making it now difficult for you to play a machine as intended, particularly if it's a music pin. Twitch, YouTube now doing this. I know that YouTube's been doing it for a long time. I certainly feel for the artists, the creators of the music, because especially the way the music industry is now, they're not getting paid a lot. And name a record store, first of all, for example, or last time you bought a physical CD, the streaming services, illegal downloads, all that kind of thing has really hurt the business. So they have to monetize, I guess, some way. And if Twitch and YouTube are making money for the providers and they're using that copyrighted material, yeah, they're not getting their cut. No different than DJs at a wedding. They have to pay royalties for the songs they play. Radio stations do the same thing. I guess it would be the same for Twitch and YouTube. No different than TVs and movies. Yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of... I look at it and I say, well, it's unfortunate for me. There goes my disco nights. They are now a thing of the past. You have to watch them live, which I have, and they are great. No, but apparently they're now monitoring them and threatening to shut them down live. yeah i think that's talk how are they going to monitor that i well i don't know what i know is it usually takes about i reckon about eight or nine hours after i finished my stream for them to put a strike on the stream on the the vod the video on demand so that's the algorithm doing its work so maybe they've just improved it so it can monitor it live i i don't know or maybe they're they're just targeting people that have got a lot of viewers so maybe i'm safe well you're playing copyrighted disco music. I loved when you had Boney M on there recently. And Cerrone. I thought that was pretty amazing. Maybe you're just going to have to sing it. Yeah. No algorithm will actually pick the song if I'm singing it. No, I have to agree. But they are very, very enjoyable. And speaking of your streams, boy oh boy, I saw you put on a clinic. And everyone is going to get to benefit from that right now here on Final Round Pinball Podcast. Marty streamed Guardians of the Galaxy at James and Jackie so he right now is going to tell you how to play that game because he's got it like the back of his hand go ahead Marty funny in my defense because obviously he's talking about the fact that I was pretty crap on it I really haven't played the game that much and it's one of those ones where you've got to do the thing in a certain order and I just had no idea of the order. I want more time on it because I really, really like that game from the way it looks, the way it shoots. I really like the rule set. I'm just not good at playing it. So there you go. It is an amazing shooting game. It always was, even from code number one, when it was just Groot Multiball Day and then it became Orb Multiball Day. And now it's not. It's not the hardest wizard mode to get to, but it's rewarding every time. I've done it a handful of times on my machine. It's different when you own a machine. It also helps when you're one of the top players in the world. That aside, it shoots great, and there are a lot of fun things. So I was giving you, James and Jackie, some suggestions. Here's my path to, first of all, get to Cherry Bomb. That's the first kind of mini wizard mode you have to get to, which is completing four of the modes entirely. And these are the best modes to go for, I think, when you bring in certain multi-balls, when you look at the bonus it provides after every ball. And I think that order was Yaka Arrow, Podchase, Sibling Rivalry, and likely the Orb Multiball shot. Antiquities? Yeah. If you have a lot of shot multipliers, you might want to bring in Quill because it's a great way to get points up. You won't probably complete Quills because it's really hard to do. You usually kind of get a head start on it and then have to go back and bring a Multiball into it because there are so many shots that you can see in the top left-hand corner, those bars. But if you want to get to Cherry Bomb, I think those are the four modes to go for. And then the next one is Immolation Initiative, which is you have to have half of all the modes done. There are eight modes, I guess ten when you include the two multiballs. And if you've completed half of them, you'll see it kind of flash on the playfield. If you have them all solid, then you're ready for Save Xandar, which is the final wizard mode. So you didn't quite get there. You were super close. So I was watching and, yeah, it's a fun game. It certainly provided me a lot of entertainment, I'll tell you that. Again, look, the thing I didn't like about it was feeling like I have to follow a set path. I like feeling like I've got choice. And, you know, every time I would choose something, people would be screaming out saying, oh, you picked the wrong mode. It's like, yeah, but I just want to have fun. I want to be able to pick the one that I'm comfortable with because that's going to make me feel good. That's going to make me get through the game longer. and eventually if I'm going for Save Xander, I've got to get through all these modes anyway, so just let me play it the way I want. And it's one of those ones where people are like, well, if you want score and if you want this, you have to do it a certain way. I don't like that. Well, when people were telling you how to play it, you mainly were talking about James, who was basically resting his chin on your shoulder while you were playing and talking to you, which I know you love, Marty. Yeah. Well, no, it wasn't that. It was actually people in chat were calling out as well. So anyway, I like to explore games my way. And once I'm like, okay, I've hit a wall. I cannot get any further. Now tell me what I need to do. Well, Marty, thanks for asking me what I did the last couple of weeks. So because I know you meant to ask, I released a few pinball profiles. Very, very proud to release a wonderful one with Alex Ward, a great friend that lives in Georgia. and we talked about all kinds of good things in that episode. And then I finally, after 17, 16 months, released a recording I did with Marc Silk, who's the voice of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. He does many of the characters. I worked with Jerry Thompson for Stern Pinball, and that got some good feedback as well, too. It took forever for me to produce that. We complain and joke about how long it takes me to produce these final round episodes. That one really took a long time because I kind of screwed up the editing way back when. How many times do you think in that last 17 months do you think I've reached out to you to say, have you done the Marc Silk interview yet? Easily five times for sure. I know because it's a unique interview because, first of all, a very, very talented individual, one of the best voiced actors you'll hear anywhere. And, yeah, I mean, you knew it was going to be entertaining, and I think it was. So glad to finally have released that. Yes, I might. Again, because I'm not selfish, I'm going to ask you another question, Marty, about you. Okay. Did you watch any good movies this week? I saw a good Will Ferrell movie. You must be a huge fan. Stop it. I ask this because, I don't know, when you warm up on the microphone, you do mouth exercises. and one of my favorite mouth exercises in the movie anchorman will ferrell's character ron burgundy does the dumbest mouth exercise ever he does the human torch was denied a bank loan like just it's funny as hell it's no reference to marty i'm like you haven't seen anchorman that's not true is it oh yeah no i i'm laughing because we've obviously spoken about this guy's Breaking the fourth wall. He knows that I am not a fan of Will Ferrell. What? Who knew? And Anchorman, I've never seen. Wasn't there an Anchorman 2? Yes, there was. Yeah. Also not seen. So. What about old school? Old school Will Ferrell? Yes, with Vince Vaughn, Luke Wilson. It's amazing. Okay. Don't know that. All right. Night at the Roxbury? Yes. What? No, I haven't seen that. Superstar? It's not. With Molly Shannon? Yeah, surely you've seen that. Haven't seen that. Probably won't direct the video. I think it actually might have. Those are your two Will Ferrell movies? Why don't you add to your holy shitty trinity of Will Ferrell movies? Land of the Lost, is that another one you've seen? What's Land of the Lost? Oh, you'd love it. Trust me. It's garbage. Is it? Yeah. Well, hopefully he will redeem himself because he does have a new movie coming out, I think probably in about July, August, and it's all about Eurovision. I've spoken about Eurovision. I love Eurovision, and he plays – he's like a band member in a duo that are trying to make it big in Eurovision. And I've seen the trailer for it. It looks hilarious. So maybe he can redeem himself. Come on, Will Ferrell. You can get Marty on board, all right? It's a hard ask. It is a hard ask. It shouldn't be a hard ask because you know he loves this show and so many celebrities. But we'll get to that down the road. time yeah absolutely enough about us enough already well speaking of celebrities and pinball celebrities then you don't want me to prolong this any longer we've teased them enough yes let's do it okay marty no more dicking around time to get to the good stuff let's get to it i have actually seen pictures of the game you know me i don't like to reveal anything it's none of my business i don't believe in that kind of you know speculation bullshit but when you're sitting on something like this you've got a what am i gonna do i'm going nuts i gotta now you gotta share you gotta share i am really keen to find out what you know i think a lot of people are really keen you know we we sort of said you know the the second game jurassic park was the difficult second album which clearly it wasn't because it was another masterpiece so i think we're all even more keen to know what number three is going to be so dish tell me everything you know this is the first time you're hearing it too this is exciting i thought i would share it on final round so everyone is hearing it the first time here we go different okay there are things when you look at iron maiden and you look at jurassic park there are some similarities so you're gonna see that in the third game too there are not going to be two orbit shots there's only going to be one think of it in jurassic park there's only the right side uh and same i guess would be for i mean i think i think everyone knows the right orbit in jurassic park yep no very well it's not an easy orbit but I'm just saying. It's a fun shot, isn't it? Yeah, kick out. It's a tough one, but same kind of thing here. So no two orbits, alright? No scoops, and Keith said this a long time ago. I never forgot it. He doesn't like scoops because it kind of slows the game down. Not going to see one on game three. A minimum of three flippers, alright? Maybe it'll be different for the Pro and the Premium. I don't know, but we're going to see at least three flippers. Incredible animation. I mean, that's something we certainly saw with Maiden. Definitely with Jurassic Park, that's a must. I think Keith probably puts his foot down. He's a big wig now, Mr. Stern. Hey, look, you know who I am, blah, blah, blah. And so he's going to be like that. He gets the top people. They're like, oh, let's give him to Elwin, whatever. Yeah, exactly. Minimal action button activity. All right. Keith is old school. He doesn't believe in that. Hands should be at the sides. Think about it in Jurassic Park. Yeah, you got to hit it, but the ball is stopped many times. Yeah, yeah. Does it really well in Jurassic Park. So, yep, okay. All right. No bashing away on that. There will be a quick multiball mode. I do know that. Keith's the guy who's designing the rules. So you see that in Jurassic Park. There's one of the modes, two of the modes actually, in Iron Maiden as well. Because that, again, really helps the novice player. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Expected. Yeah. What is it called? Like chump multiball or something? I think it was referred to something like that. Yeah, keep going. Pretty much the same thing. I don't think you're going to see too many modes. Now, I know Jurassic Park had more than Iron Maiden. But Iron Maiden, pretty amazing. What, five modes? And then, of course, the wizards and all that. so probably six is the magic number here i could be wrong but i'm looking at six it's hard to tell from the play field i'm looking at but anyway six yeah okay well if you think about jurassic park i mean it's got a lot of if you count all the paddocks you would call them modes i guess but really it's the control room that are the really sort of unique modes i guess and there's only four of them so i would say yep keep it minimal i would expect some sort of language in the game that i have to get a dictionary to understand what the hell Keith's talking about, because whether it's paddocks or soul shards in Iron Maiden, what the hell is a soul shard? All right, Keith, can I play the game, or do I got to get a bloody dictionary, all right? Do I have to get the history books out to understand what the hell's going on here? Yep. He's already better than us. Now he has to prove he's smarter than us. Enough. All right, Keith, just give us the game, finally. Yeah, for sure. You can kind of tell he's got an obsession with goats. All right, so I assume there's going to be goats somewhere in there, some sort of Easter egg. It's his thing. Yep, it is. And also, too, because he's got a lot of good feedback on it, somehow, someway, I'm going to look hard on the artwork, but maybe it's actually in a mode. Keith is either rocking or rolling tobacco in a pipe. One of the two things. That pipe shot of him in Jurassic Park, that's a great look. Yeah, okay. And of course, that upper flipper is going to hit not one, but definitely at least two loops. Yeah, which is good. I like how he's been able to incorporate sideways action up the second half of the play field. I think that's, it's sort of really, I don't know, just gives you a lot of variety with shots rather than just being your stock standard fan layout. So, yeah, good. So you're feeling pretty good now that you know a little bit about game number three? Yeah, I do. I'm not sure where you're getting this information from and whether it's true. My minions. Great sources. Really? Well, I've got a minion in particular that might be able to shed some light on the truths of your rumors. So shall we bring him on? Sure. Whoever you think you got is whatever. Yeah. Go ahead. Whoever you think you got. Good luck. Are you their caller? Yes. Yes. First time caller. so this is Keith Elwin Keith Elwin i know right loving loving what you're going to do with this game so all those features yeah pretty good what do you reckon yeah i've always wanted to do a winston game and yeah it came up winston his cat yes nice couldn't get the license for craft work could you keith i'm sorry i had to reveal everything there but uh hey man the truth hurts yeah you forgot the dual flippers on the left side oh like big gamer uh can't talk about it okay all right all right i understand i respect the ndas i've got that keith these are some of the things i've noticed about your first two games so i mean there are things that i don't know if there is a you know when you look at a Steve Ritchie game you can kind of go oh that's kind of that flow and all that kind of stuff you kind of see it a lot with borg as well too is there a Keith Elwin style was i kind of close i hope not i'm trying to avoid that okay so everything i said was just bullshit apparently all right it's out the window but do you go into designing a machine thinking i have got to do something that stands alone that is not comparable to anything else because i i would say that certainly iron maiden and dress apart when they came out people were like okay this doesn't look like what we've seen before is that something that you intentionally aim to do yes actually i have a good story originally on jurassic park the upper flipper was on the left side that's where i wanted it because the iron maiden you know the upper flipper was kind of in the same area so that's what i was shooting for i just couldn't get it to work so begrudgingly had to move it to the right side that would be totally a different layout um no no it's basically flip-flop the left ramp in the uh pteranodon ramp and the sides of the pop bumpers that was the original layout why couldn't you get the shot to work i mean if it's just i guess flipped horizontally but is it because it has to be because of all the stuff that's happening around the right side with pop bumpers and everything you couldn't get the entrance to the side ramp in exactly the same location but just flipped Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don't remember exactly why, but there are CADs out there that have that stuff on the left side. So it did work in CAD, but not when you actually made the whiteboard? Yeah, it worked on my David Hankin drawings, but not in real life. So is that what you do? Do you draw something first and then put it into CAD, or are you working directly in CAD? I work directly in CAD, so what I do is I make extremely rough drafts. I'll do a one-to-one printout. I'll stick it on. I have a beat the clock in my office, which is an old battle game. It's nice and flat, and it makes a great table. So I'll put the printout on there, and then I'll go grab flipper bats, pop bumpers, whatever from the lab, and I'll physically lay it out. I'll use the rubber sleeves to kind of define shots, like, okay, there's a ramp here, there's a loop here. And then I'll stand back, and I'll look at it. I was like, do these shots look makeable? And then I'll make adjustments based on that. So when do you know that you've got a layout that just shoots well and does everything that you need to do? Is it much further along into the process or is it at that stage and you go, okay, we're going to print. There's no turning back. I'm pretty good at looking at a model and knowing if it shoots well or not. So if I can look at it and say, yeah, this looks like a fine shot. this one looks like a hard shot but makeable uh then we'll i'll go ahead and finalize it in cad and then we'll uh we'll test it out are you given the theme before you lay out the game and then adjust the game towards the theme or if you were given the theme first does that kind of give you the idea where you want to go the theme comes really early uh iron maiden was obviously the only one that i didn't really know what i was working on until i got there so that was the only one Jurassic Park I knew long in advance what I was working on. Marty said on his Melbourne Silver Ball stream last night, when Guardians of the Galaxy was made, John Borg thought he might be working on Iron Maiden. Is that true? Yeah, we kind of flip-flopped everything there. Yeah, I know Borg kind of wanted to do it, but yeah, you think he was burned out on music pins, so I volunteered. Yeah, he did Kiss and Aerosmith. You're right. That's a good point. I didn't know that about Guardians and that that was possibly going to be Iron Maiden. I assume Groot would have been some sort of Eddie figure. I have some older sketches I made, but nothing really, nothing even close to mocking anything up. Did you always have in mind that you would be turning Archer into Iron Maiden? Or when you got to Stern, did you think well, maybe I'll give a new layout a go? Or was it just, time's ticking, I've already got this layout, let's use it? Or did Stern pretty much say to you, you've got the layout, Let's use it. Yeah, yeah, they wanted me to use that layout. So obviously the tricky part was figuring out how the toys are going to work on Iron Maiden compared to Archer. With Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles just coming out by Stern Pinball, I heard Dwight Sullivan, I assume John Borg was doing the same thing. They watched a lot of episodes just to kind of get a feel for the modes and whatnot. I know with Iron Maiden, that wasn't exactly your go-to music, so you had to do a little bit of research there. is that the case with you with Jurassic Park with Maiden with any game that you doing is just to kind of figure out where you want to go yeah you really have to So for Iron Maiden I actually downloaded all their stuff and listened to it on my drive to Chicago from California on my way out there Because I just found out, like, weeks before I moved out, that that's what I was going to be doing. So I downloaded all that, listened to it a couple dozen times on my trip out, and was like, all right. Yeah, I think I got kind of a grasp on the lyrics and, you know, tried to focus on what the modes are going to be and how they're based on the lyrics and the songs, and it just went from there. And a good way to keep you awake on the drive to Chicago, listening to Iron Maiden as you're driving. It's funny. The first few times I listened to them, I was like, eh, they're all right. And then as I was playing the game, it was like, wow, these guys really do have some energy. I give them that. And then by the end of the project, I actually really started liking some of their stuff. So it's funny how that works. Phenomenal live, I will just tell you. I have seen them live and such an amazing, amazing concert and amazing musicians and very intricate sort of sound as well. But it's kind of in your face, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So one of the interesting things about what you've been able to do is, I guess, probably debunk some of the myths that people had about you. Because when it was announced you were going to be doing design, people were like, oh, tournament player, greatest player in the world, blah, blah, blah, whatever, you know, move over. but you didn't actually I mean, yes, you've got machines that are obviously good in tournaments as well but as I said, you debunked that myth that people thought that it was just going to be focused on tournament play, ridiculously hard, and you've made them really accessible. I guess my question to you is what do you say to that when people sort of pigeonhole you as something else when you can actually do so much more? Well, people need to understand, first and foremost at the time as an operator, and I know super complex games do not earn so when i uh first took the gig with iron maiden i was like i'm gonna do five modes really straightforward old school you know the mode doesn't start when you plunge the ball you actually have to earn it you have to shoot a couple shots spell eddie uh i just kind of wanted to bring an old school feel and like a 90s feel to a modern game and keep the modes i wanted the modes not very many modes but i wanted them to be different you know you're doing different things you're just not shoot the ramps for 30 seconds like you know icarus was the lone exception because i thought it was really fun to combo those ramps so so much fun comboing those really difficult ramps thank you very much for that yeah that was the first mode we uh actually did i said when i wrote it i was just like this probably isn't gonna be that fun but uh actually shooting it was like this is actually pretty fun to try to keep this combo going so it just it never evolved it always stayed that way on that topic you must be loving watching everyone do these 900 million death blows on iron maiden oh i have a surprise for them in the next update there is going to be more updates because i mean that thing's a pretty perfect game i can't believe we just heard that oh well if there isn't that an update there might be a surprise for people hold on a second keith uh if there is an update by the way i want to bring up something that keith once told me it was at pinberg all right i mean you want to talk about getting in my fucking head I'm playing Jurassic Park and I'm like, oh, loving the goats. He goes, all right, there's a little Easter egg in there for you. I'm like, oh, what is it? He goes, whenever you see a goat on the screen, smash the action button. So I did. So what happens? What happens when you hit the action button when a goat appears, Jeff? Well, Keith, do you want to tell me? Yeah, not much. Absolutely fuck all. Nothing. You look silly doing it, so that's worth it. And I kept it to myself. I'm like, I'm not going to tell anybody else. I might need this. People know I hate the action button, but why is he doing it? I've looked like an ass for I don't know how many months now doing this thing. Thanks, Keith. Yes, but has your opinion on the open button changed? Yes, yes. I see its importance as a start button. Anything else on top of that is gravy. Keith, even though you screwed me on Jurassic Park for hitting that thing, that is a great answer. I love, love, love hearing that. But I like the way you've used it in your games. I do like the way you've used it for the missiles in Jurassic Park. It's good. I just don't want to be banging away on it endlessly. That's all. Nope. I doubt I'll ever do that. But you're welcome. Thank you, Keith. Well, the one thing that I think, you know, Jeff and I have spoken about it, that gets kind of a bit frustrating about the open button is when you've got to make that choice between flipping a ball or pressing a button. And, you know, I think sometimes we push the button when we should have hit the flipper and we lose a ball. and that kind of seems a bit unfair. What's really good about Jurassic Park is, well, first of all, when you're doing the missile, if the ball is behind the post, it's okay. The game has stopped. It's fine. You can quickly press it to whatever you want and make your missile shot one out of ten times if you're lucky. But what's actually really good is if you're in a multiball, you also get that opportunity as well. So you're giving people choice to have the moment where it's measured and you've got time and also the moment where you've got to make a decision, are you going to push the button or are you going to flip the ball? Yeah, I got so much flack for that. People were like, how about you just use the flippers to select a mode? And I was like, okay, how's that going to work in multiball? Okay. Good point. It's like, no, I want to choose this. No, crap, I've got to stop flipping to choose this mode. No, so, yeah, I like the extra frenetics of trying to wail on a thing during a multiball. You don't get much time to make a selection. all that's by design because it's supposed to be frenetic so it wasn't some oh this is the best we can do under the circumstances no the moat was entirely designed that way so you say oh yeah in fact three seconds to make your selection and then boom what was the joke you wanted to tell me about the goats what was it oh i just said that wasn't me that was one of our animators who just he was going crazy and so we said all right we'll put this in we'll put this in and finally we had so many videos that had goated in them we're just like yeah we'll have it so if you hit the fourth skill shot that it'll unlock these videos these alternate videos so to this day people still don't know what that fourth skill shot does but i'm telling you right now it unlocks a different set of videos in jurassic park there's the fourth skill shot marty didn't i see you hit it on the super stream no i got the which we do joke about i got the secret skill shot which really keith is not a secret at all when there's an insert flashing for it so i wouldn't say that's secret That's the only one I know, but I think he's referring to another one, right? So the four-way skill shot, it's the last one. Yeah, so this is left ramp, right ramp, side ramp, O. Yeah, so I've got that. So does that unlock alternate videos? Yes, if you look at the screen, your truck is no longer there. You're now a goat. I'm too busy playing the freaking game to look at the... That's how you'll know you've unlocked it. If you look up and the truck icon is replaced by a goat icon, you'll get the special videos. All right. There you go. Got it. All right. Okay. You have a great nostalgia for pinball history, and obviously you know so many different games as an owner-operator. I like when you bring things back that we haven't seen in a while. The post-up in Jurassic Park. Not going to ask what's coming on the next game, even though I've clearly seen the whiteboard. Okay, I haven't. It might have been a lie. But what are some of your favorite nostalgia things that we just don't see a lot of anymore? Or can you say that? Spinner rules. Oh, yes. God, you have no idea. You know I love spinners. I should have put that on my list because you have spinners in both games. They're important. I will never make a game without a spinner. As a child, I would only play games that had spinners because I thought they were so awesome. Okay. So, again, Jeff and I have been talking about this, about spinners, in the fact that, yep, they make great sounds, and, you know, if you've got lights attached to them, flashes, they go off. But back in the day where you'd rip the spinner and all the points were on the spinner, we need to bring that back. Yeah, I own a 9-ball, which is obviously where that spinner rule for Jurassic Park came from. It's like, I really like, you know, advancing the value to a point and then cashing it in. So with Jurassic, I figured, well, I've got four ramps and four lights, and the ramps will light each one of these lights, and then you cash it in when you're ready. So that's where that rule came from, and I love it. I think that's – I was really surprised that rule was never used again in pinball. I've said many times my favorite spinner in pinball – I mean, I like Stargazer because there's three of them, and you can set the values of certainly the top left, and, of course, you can multiply the other ones. But I've always enjoyed Space Shuttle, how you can swipe the targets and make it up to 7,000 a rip. The only problem with that game is, to me, that is the only part of the game, and that's the kind of fine line you have to find. Yeah, you want the spinner to have some sort of increased value or cash out, but it can't be the whole game. Yeah, really, really big fan of that spinner, but as you said, if you actually focus on it, then, yeah, it becomes really unbalancing. But, you know, in the end it beats like Swords of Fury, which has two spinners on a loop, which neither one really does anything, so I'll take that over the ladder. anything else that you would like to bring back? Oh, I'm bringing something back. Don't worry. Oh, okay. My big bad bear, and I've said it many times, I'm going to say it again, big points. If you're going to give us big points, give us fucking big points. Don't give me shitty points and call it big points. That's all I'm saying. What are you talking about? Which one? All of them, I've got to tell you. Although I think Aerosmith is probably one that actually gives you some decent points. But for the most part, most machines that say big points, you kind of go, well, you've given me 10 million points. And sure, that's some points. You were playing Guardians last night and you got big points. That's what it was, right? It was the 10 million. That's why you're thinking about this. No, it's why I'm thinking of it again. But I often think about big points. It's my big bugbear. It is my yellow rules cards that Ryan complains about, right? and it's like if you get 10 million points and it says big points but i'm going for a billion score that 10 million really isn't big points you know what i'm saying it's like pops grow yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah agreed like i this is this is the thing is what i'm saying is that if you've got if you've got a spinner shot that is absolutely beautiful to hit don't just give me a light show and some sounds actually make it meaningful as well i think it's a missed opportunity that's kind of what I'm saying and one of my least favorite rules in Star Trek sure I'm going to talk about Star Trek again is the the inlanes increase the spinner value to not that much unless you then go to level three and you double that shot and then you're going to double scoring but for the most part it's not incrementing it by a lot and I think that's what you're sort of saying about pops as well increase pops value my favorite Star Trek mode is the away team destroy the drill where it's, I think, what, 25k a spin? Yeah. Then all of a sudden it's a super fun thing to hit, right? Yeah, absolutely. But it's more so I'm complaining about the inlanes giving you a big light show, and it's like, well, you've just really incremented it by bugger all, so why did you give me the fanfare? There's not fanfare there. Can I ask a mechanical question about spinners? Sure. Are spinners now done by Optos? Designer's choice. So on Jurassic Park, the left ramp rides right on top of the spinner. So we had to use a mechanical. Since the opto-spinners sit a little more proud, we had no choice on that one. But I could have if that wasn't the case. Do you have a preference? Oh, yeah. I love the opto-spinners like Elvira. Those are great. What is the difference when it comes to playing the game? Do they feel different? Do they spin faster or slower? What is it? Less friction. so they spin longer. Ah, that's it. Okay. But obviously then we adjust the rules. So, you know, it's not the same. I first noticed it on Beatles. I don't know if that was the first time I noticed it, but the first time I maybe paid attention to it. And I was like, okay, that's a little different. But the fact that you said less friction, that's everything. Have you never played Austin Powers? Not recently, no. Why, is that one? That's an optic spinner, yeah. Mini-me? Yeah, mini-me. Yep. Oh, yeah, that would be a lot of friction. Yeah, well, it would probably have to be because you're moving a little toy around, so you wouldn't want much resistance on it. Yeah, I believe that was Stern's first optic spinner. Man, I don't pay attention. Well, I think Police Force, you know, back in the day, that was an optic spinner. I'm sure there's others. I didn't know it was designer's choice, but that kind of now makes sense to me. Okay, all right. Yeah, like I said, the only downside is it comes with a much bigger footprint. So if you have room for it, great. If not, then mechanical. So with COVID-19, you're working from home, I assume. I don't know if you're back in the factory or not. Yeah, I've been home for some time. Is it easier to work from home? I can't have everything at your disposal there. So what is the hardest part about being at home? Oh, I love it. You kidding? I had a 40-minute commute each way. This is great. Obviously, the hardest part is communicating with the software guys. But I think Rick and I have worked together now. This is our third game. So I think we pretty much read each other's minds. And he sends me updates. I upload it on my Whitewood and I give him feedback. And it's no big deal. The other thing, too, with COVID-19, I mean, so many people, sadly, have been hit hard financially. And so have you because Pinberg got canceled. And that's a big part of your income. It's just as well because I have not really played pinball in three months or so. Oh, relax, everybody. Keith's a little rusty. We're all fine now. We got a chance. Yeah. Give me a... We're all in that same boat. So I still think if there's a degradation of skills, you've got a very high base you're coming down from. Yeah, but, you know, back in the day when I had a whole bunch of games at home, no problem. Oh, yeah, fair enough. But are you feeling... There's a lot of people that are feeling frustration. I mean, we've actually just started seeing some tournaments in Australia start back up with social distancing rules, etc. But, you know, from all the forums and the groups that I'm in, there's been just a lot of frustration because people haven't been able to play pinball if they don't have machines at home, like you now, or even in tournaments. Are you feeling that frustration, or are you just kind of like, ah, I'm designing a pinball machine, it doesn't really matter? I just play video games all day now. It's fine. Really? Yeah. Uh-oh, there's my next little thing about this next game. Six video modes. Ha-ha, yep. Do you like video modes in pinball? No, I do not. Any at all? Fishtails. Shadow? No, I hate Shadow. Okay. I don't like that video mode. You don't like Dracula? Shooting wolves? Not really. But it's easy. I'll tell you, my second favorite is The Mind Cart on Indiana Jones. Do you know the worst one? I'm just going to put it out there. I'm sure people love this. Johnny Mnemonic. Like, what do you do? No. It's just so hard to control. Lost World Jurassic Park is the worst. Really? I don't know that one. I don't know that one either. You're lucky. You swing from a vine through a T-Rex's jaws, I believe. As you would do? Sure, yeah. Yeah. Doesn't sound like fun. No. You know, Marty was talking about tournaments and whatnot and people getting back together. Things are going to be a little more difficult there in Illinois now that Raymond Davidson is there. And that Stern pinball, that's got to be fun. I know you're not back in the office yet, but it'll be nice to see him. What do you got planned for him for initiation? Well, I've been keeping him busy on my project, so I'll make sure he's nice and rusty for states. Brilliant. It's funny because I was thinking with the Sharps, with Jason Werder, who's great there, and just think of the Stern people alone. You've got Zach, you've got Lyman, you've got yourself, Raymond's there. Tim Sexton is never going to see a high score in that building again. Actually, Tim, he pretty much had all the high scores in the factory. Not now. Is that because of the factory default? No. He's the only one that puts in his 15 minutes. The rest of us don't. Ah, that's it. It's just one of these thoughts that I think that people have. Because you're now designing a people machine, nuts and bolts, does that change your appreciation of playing pinball uh yeah you do look at it differently yeah i look at the guys back in a day who had one month because my biggest complaint was man like a lot of these old ems they're so symmetrical yeah then you read the stories yeah i had one month to do this game it's like oh i get it you know so uh yeah if you don't have time to test anything and you've got to play it safe. If half of it works, then the other half should work. Let's go. What about criticisms you hear? I mean, I don't know if you go on Pinside. Once in a while, there may be a criticism on that site in the forums. How do you take that? Have you ever gotten any good advice from some of these suggestions or anything like that, or do you just kind of blow it all off? No, I just make what I want to play. Hopefully everyone else likes it too. If not, you know, there's so many games out there that you're not going to make something that everyone's going to love ever. So I don't even bother to try. I just make something I think is fun and try to make something that's different. And hopefully, yeah, hopefully people like it. What have you learned going from Iron Maiden to Jurassic Park and now on to your next machine? I thought Iron Maiden played a little too easy, a little too long. So I kind of pulled the needle in the other direction on Jurassic. I tried to make that a little drainier game, a little faster, some tighter shots. so uh mx games would be kind of right in the middle there and when i was talking to george gomez uh just recently he had mentioned about the i think we saw it in the stern of the union address where they talked about the i don't know what the proper term was it's basically you get to play a game if you're on location for a minimum of let's say three minutes you can set it to whatever you want now i think of when they do changes like this after the fact if you're a designer you didn't know this when you were making the game i don't know if it's good i don't know If it's bad, I mean, it's kind of out of your hands at that point. I see why they do it. You, again, being a former owner-operator, there's great benefits to having people have an enjoyable time playing a game and not feeling like, oh, that dollar just went like that. It's gone. Okay, at least they're getting three minutes, whether it's ball save or whatever the case may be. Where do you feel as a designer on this? Yeah, I know when it came up at the, I call it the dynamic ball saver, and that's just based on myself as an operator watching people play. is like, you know, the games cost a dollar these days. And if you're a complete novice player, you know, chances are you're going to have a sub-one-minute game and feel ripped off. But if you make the game too easy, then the expert player is going to play it all day. So I came up with the dynamic ball saves where, based on how well you do, your ball save either gets longer or shorter. And also the availability of multiple ball saves. So that was something we tested out for a year, and there's no downside to it. So we finally released that. I think, what, a couple of months ago? And this should be, all the games going forward should have that available. Marty, he's basically saying he loves it. I think it's good, too. I just didn't know if that was something that had been planned in advance. I personally don't think Iron Maiden is too easy. You're a great player. Marty and I both play very well. I still see some challenges to that game, but that shocks me that you said that you found it playing too long. It definitely plays long, especially compared to Jurassic, I think. Yes. But Gary Stern is actually, it's great working with him because he knows what he's talking about when it comes to location players and casual players. So I take everything he says seriously, and I base my designs around that. So we're now, what is it, nine months? I think it's been nine months since Jurassic Park came out. almost a year so and it is number five on the pin side top 100 it is the highest rated stern game iron maiden is six you've got the two highest rated stern games um are you trying to get them in trouble at work you're gonna have people fighting and giving them dirty looks what are you doing no i've just well i guess what i'm saying is like do you feel pressure to back that up like you've got two very highly ranked games you've now got your third i tell you what i'm really shocked iron maiden is top 10 based on the material because i remember when i was doing this project just i was like well the people who love iron maiden are gonna love this game that people do not like iron maiden are gonna hate this game so uh it seems i've reached a few people who do not like the band but like the game when uh that's you know i like that because it knows that hey i I made a fun pinball game, regardless of the theme. So it doesn't kind of answer my question, though, about whether you're feeling pressure to back it up. No. You don't care? You're just like, I'm just going to do what I do, and if people like it, they do. If it ends up as being as good as Thunderbirds, so be it. Well, I think I kind of have a handle on what's fun. I mean, I've been playing pinball my entire life. It's not like I'm trying radical new things. I'm basically just bringing the games I enjoyed, like everyone else from 80s and 90s and applying more modernized rule sets based on features we loved back then. I play pinball. I know not all game designers do, but I do. I love pinball, and I just want to design something I want to play. Regardless of my tournament past or whatever, I wasn't always a tournament player. 80s, early 90s, I didn't play in tournaments. I played the game because I enjoyed it. Was there ever a time when you weren't good at pinball? did you break your arm basically in a skateboarding accident you're one-handed yeah you know i i don't remember being bad i used to go to the arcade you know rack up 10 credits and sell them but i'm sure i was bad for a while but i just don't remember okay which game in the last 5-10 years was the hardest for you to master or really get a grasp on it just beat the shit out of you There's got to be one. Boy, I don't know, man. When it first came out, you're like, oh. The difference is if it's about making shots, you're going to make them because of your accuracy. I would have to say Rolling Stones. Mick on a stick. Yeah, because no matter how accurate you are, that stupid thing comes out there and just whack. And there goes your ball. It's just like, oh, that's infuriating. It really is. People think I'm being irrational about my dislike of Rolling Stones, but it's exactly that. When you want shot satisfaction, and if Mick wasn't there, the shots are actually well placed. It would actually flow quite nicely. It's a great shooting game, but then, oh, nope. What? Every single time. It's like it knows exactly which shot you are going to go for and just times it to be there just as you shoot. Okay, so NBA Fast Break, that Mick that Tom Koper designed for George's game there, where you're passing the ball back and forth the holes and then you've got to shoot. That you could accurately predict where it's going and plan your shot around it. I don't know how Mick works. I don't know how the code works. But it just seems that no matter what shot you're shooting for, boom, there he goes. He knows. He knows. Wait a second. A year ago, I recall being in May, you were there too in New York City. And I'm pretty sure, I can't remember if you yourself had to play it. I remember Steven Bowden having to play it. And Raymond Rollingstone was there. Were you playing that as well? Yeah, and I did terrible. Okay. So that's why it's fresh in your mind. Alien Star saved me, yes. Oh, God, that's a good game. You want to talk about a fun spinner. Holy moly. Yeah, yeah. And my friend just picked up The Games, another one of those street-level games from the early 80s. And I played it at my friend Mike Vinikour's house. And that is just an amazing game that nobody knows about. Never heard of it. Just like Alien Star was. Yeah, exactly. You look at it and you're like, well, that looks dumb. but when you're in there playing it, to get the extra ball, you have to shoot two different targets that are really hard to hit. It's just an amazing game that nobody knows about. I'm just looking that up. Which one? Who made that? Is that one of the Gottlieb Street levels? Yeah, it's called The Games. The Games. I've never even seen it. Does Popeye have one? I don't think so. I've never even heard of it. Yeah basically you competing in all these different decathlon events and the more you get I think there a multiplier and then it got more great spinner rules from that era You guys would probably like it Anybody wanting to sell one right now please get in touch with Jeff Teolis I think there's only like 400 or 500 of those made, so that's why you don't hear about it or see it. It looks like it's before they changed the flippers to those really dreadful, pointy, upright flippers that just ruined the game. Yeah. No, it's got nice snappy flippers. Very target captive ball. It's fun. It's just good old pinball fun. A light just went off, Marty. Keith mentioned he's going to bring back something from the old days, and you're just talking about flippers. Game number three, banana flippers. Rabbit flippers. Rabbits. So it's interesting that you should come on this week, Keith, because we actually had an email come through, and I'll read it, and then you'll understand why I'm referencing you with this. So this is from Jesse, who says, As I'm relatively new to the competitive pinball scene, I was thinking about pinball etiquette and how it might make for an interesting topic for you guys on the show, not only for my own education, but anyone else new to competitive play. I'm sure you guys would come up with a list of things that you just do or don't do, at a tournament. And as soon as this email came through, I thought of you, Keith. Do you know why I thought of you? Hmm. Is this not Pinball 101 related? Yes. Yes, it is. Guy, you know that thing's like 11 years old now? No way. I was talking to Jeff about this all yesterday, and I was going to try and dig out the DVD, because obviously I've got both of them. You're welcome. He bought them secondhand, Keith. You didn't get any money out of it. No, that's not true. I did actually buy them online directly from wherever they're available. So you and your brother can, you know, buy a new house with my purchase. Yeah. Yes. So you actually did this. You actually, and I was telling you, they're hilarious. But you've actually gone through this and talked about pinball etiquette with some funny videos. I think it was on Pinball 101 was the etiquette one, wasn't it? Yes. So, I felt, let's ask you, what are some of the do's and don't do's at a tournament when it comes to pinball etiquette? Me? Well, you did a video on it, so surely, even though it was 11 years ago. Marty, that's called filler. It was the highlight of the DVD for me. It was, yeah, that turned out so much better than I thought it was. Oh, man. Yeah, that was just something, I think we made like three of them. I'm like, man, these are hilarious. We should do some more. So we went back and filmed more like six months later. It was like, God, these are great. Yeah, they turned out great. Yeah, I mean, not very much bothers me when I'm playing, but when somebody's kind of shadowing right behind you while you're playing, especially when no one else is around in the area, that's probably my biggest peeve. That is actually, and Jeff knows this because he was watching it last night, my biggest pet peeve is when somebody is there next to me, even worse, when they're talking to me. I still remember a tournament I was at, and I think I might have been playing KISS, it could have been. And somebody was commentating my entire game to somebody else behind me in a loud voice. So, oh my God, it was so annoying. I'm not going to mention that it was Ryan C that was doing it. I think that would be unfair to mention his name. Oh, he just needs to hit Love Gun right now. Would you shut the hell up? It's so annoying. it was kind of like he's got two balls locked now he now needs to hit the right ramp to start multiple it's like oh my god it's funny you guys mention that because when you're on the pinverge stage in the finals you hear the commentary and it's just like well right now he's going to try to do this and then I start second guessing myself no that's not what I'm doing I was wondering whether you would hear that because I questioned that at the time and someone said oh no because the speakers are facing a different direction you can't hear it up on stage clearly that's not the case oh you can definitely hear it you can definitely hear it yeah and it is a bit off-putting for you i mean you still you still do amazing things i try to tune it out but it's funny because i'll have something in my mind and then i'll hear it i was like nah i'm not gonna do that but that being said i've never seen you ever wear headphones no i'm pretty good at tuning you know i grew up in arcades i grew up with little kids next to you pushing buttons, jumping up and down, screaming in your face. I think you can ask the Sharps. They grew up mocking each other when they played, and you can tell that you cannot bother them while they're playing. Well, it shows them how bad their play is, though. That's true. That's true. I guess nothing can bother them, and that's it for you, too. Boy, I can think of five people in the pinball community, and I have to wear headphones any time I'm near them. I have to. And I love all five of them. It's just I'm like, nope, they're going to say something. Yeah, I like hearing everything in a game, tilt warnings, the mechanical sounds. I can't wear headphones when I play. Yeah, Jeff and I, we talked about this, and it's the balance of everything. So if you've got headphones on, you can't hear the machine, and you don't get the audio cues of what you're meant to do. But the flip of that is if it's drowning out all the noise around you that's distracting, you've still got a net benefit of having headphones on. But that's only if you can tune these things out without headphones. Then you've got it made and probably one of the ingredients of your recipe of success. Yeah. Like I said, I grew up talking to friends while we played. We'd mock each other, tease each other, interfere with each other's games. And this is how I grew up playing. That's what we did. But that is not good suggested etiquette for anyone going into a tournament. It's something you can do with your friends for sure. It might rub some people the wrong way. Like, there are other things in tournaments that are just, boy, we've really got to straighten this up because this isn't good etiquette. I guess as a tournament player, one of my peeves is when adjustments have been made to the game but no notes on the game. You know, like a big one is 8-Ball Deluxe. You're like, okay, so I could collect my bonus over here in the right saucer. Who knows if it has multipliers or not. So if you're going first, you're basically experimenting for everyone else. so I would appreciate notes saying, hey, this is how this is set up. IFPA has been really good with that lately, so I can't complain about that. I played a Frontier recently at Centrum. I don't remember what it was, but it was set on five-ball settings where the falls bonus does not collect, and I didn't realize it, so I'm sitting there building up multipliers, building up multipliers, drain, and ended up not collecting that bonus. It's like, oh, that would have been nice to know. Yeah, that would be frustrating for sure. it's like a frustration I've had with, oh, I don't know, certain games that have come out where Marty and I have talked about this, where I have no idea what the secret skill shot is. There's no way I can find out unless I'm really talking about newer games. I wonder why that's such a big thing. And it's all designers do it. It's all companies do it, that they don't give that information in advance. It's something maybe you have to unlock, you have to find, but then once somebody finds it, everyone kind of knows, or at least certainly the tournament players know. I feel it's kind of a disadvantage for people not in the know, and it doesn't make them a better pinball player to have that knowledge. It's just a circumstance that someone passed it along to them. I've been in tournaments where that has happened. Somebody did something that they knew that no one else knew, and I just find that a little frustrating. I wish it was kind of more of an even play field. But, again, we're seeing that in a lot of designs. Yeah, like in Iron Maiden, I shut that stuff off in tournament mode. Thank you. Another thing I did is if there's a multiball that's hard to get, you're building to it, you're getting to it, you get there and you find out, oh, the tournament director shut off the ball save. It's like, wow, that was a waste of time. So I think the last Jurassic Park update, we put floors on all the ball savers. So I've taken some control back from these tournament directors who just put everything extra hard without realizing, hey, that was a really hard multiball to get to. They should get some reward. He is totally taking a shot at Josh Sharpe. I love it. I didn't even have to. Yes. I remember having this conversation with Tim Sexton, and Tim was just furious. I wasted all the time getting to this multiball, and there was no ball savers. Like, what's the point? And I was like, yeah, we should update all our games with a floor and the ball savers. So Tim did that for Black Knight, and sure enough, at the Colorado tournament, Black Knight was there with all its glorious ball savers. and the Sharps are like, yeah, we can't turn those off. Thank you. Thank you. See this? Suck it, Sharps. Maybe that should be the episode title, episode 10, Suck It, Sharps. If we ever make final round t-shirts, that's it. Famous quotes. That's right. I remember I texted Tim. Yeah, they said they can't put the floor in the ball saver. He's like, yep, perfect. Good. You're going to shoot that stand-up target 100 times and not get a multiball with the ball saved. It's like, yeah, no way. It's a good thing Zach only is limited to marketing and has no impact in code or in rules or things like that. So that's good. Yeah, we lock him out of the office. Okay, one of the greatest players ever. Two games under your belt, a third one coming out soon. Great designer. I think of a musician. and if they're somebody who sings and is a songwriter, when I talk to a lot of the musicians, they say, I want to be more known as a songwriter. There was more pride there. What is it for you? Would you like to be known as one of the best players ever or one of the best designers? Certainly at this point in my life, I don't play that many tournaments anymore, so I guess designer. But I've played in tournaments for 20 plus years, so I'm perfectly happy to pass the torch to Raymond or whoever. You know, Escher, obviously, these are all very talented players who are much younger than I am. So as long as they carry the torch, I have no problem giving up that mantle and focusing on being a good designer. Do you, maybe a hard question for you to answer. Do you see anybody potentially taking over your title? I would say Escher has the best chance because like me, he's been playing since he was a little kid. And I think there's a lot to be said about that. I just noticed, yeah, when you're growing up physically, mentally, and you're learning the game of pinball, it seems to just come naturally for him, as it did me as I got older. So I'm guessing the same with Jason Zoller, another kid who grew up playing pinball, and he played very well at the Colorado tournament. So there's definitely something said to be getting him learning at a young age. Well, this is what I've said. Jordan Treadway is obviously a great player in Australia. He doesn't play that many tournaments now. But the difference with the youth of today, God, we sound so old, is they didn't have to relearn how to play pinball like I did. And I know a lot of people did where we were always on the fly. And now we had to adjust to dead bouncing, live catching, drop catching, etc. They only know the new style. So they've already got an advantage over us. Well, plus everything's online now. Yeah, Pinball 101 was made 11 years ago. none of this was filmed there was no such thing as tournament cam nobody was filming anything so all these moves that i'm showing back then were like people are like oh that's how you do that or i've never seen that before of course now you you watch a stream or whatever and you're like oh yeah i know how to do that you're right about jason zoller you're right about escher and jared august some of these kids i think of johannes ostermeyer uh these people all had somebody older kind of influenced them to play and and really enjoy that and it's kind of with young people they're great but you gotta you gotta wonder they get to a certain age does their focus go away from playing maybe it's school maybe it's a relationship whatever the case may be maybe it's sports but uh once you get past that cusp i think of you know maybe 2021 if you're still playing pinball oh yeah the sky's the limit for these players yeah i think escher's at the age now if he hasn't gotten bored of it by now he's not going to well marty we've tied him up long enough i'm I'm sure he's probably got some Chicago deep dish pizza or something to eat right now. That's the worst pizza. You don't like it? You don't like it? No. Oh, I loved it. I went to, what was it, Lou Malnati's or something? I like Lou Malnati's, but I don't know. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. It's not something you would eat every week. I mean, I would, but most people wouldn't. It's different. It's not exactly pizza, but it's like a pie. It's casserole. Yeah, it's a casserole. It is. Yeah. We will let you go because it's kind of dinner time when we're recording this. And thanks very much and looking forward to game number three and hopefully seeing you soon and back at Stern when everything's all safe and sound. And I appreciate you coming on the program. All right. No problem. Thanks, guys. So there we go. That was Keith Elwin. What did we learn, Jeff? Apparently, I have no idea what his next game is. Sorry. No idea. This episode was all clickbait. Sorry. So thanks for your click, guys. We will make it up to you in the second half. I promise, some big, big news. Absolutely. The timing of that interview was very interesting as well because we recorded that before the Jurassic Park topper was announced. Good point. We didn't talk about it in the interview because we didn't know about it. So let's talk about it now. A lot of controversy, too. People saying $600 for a piece of plastic, a new mode, this, that, that. My thoughts on it are, you know what? I don't care what any company comes out with. It's up to you, the consumer, to decide whether you love it or whether you don't like it, whether you want to buy it or whether you don't buy it. It doesn't matter to me. Not everything is made for me. I have yet to buy any topper, but that doesn't mean I don't think they're beautiful or add to a collection. It's just not personally for me, but I'm not going to knock anybody who has to have that for their machine. Yeah, yeah. I think again it's a case of well if I don't like it and I'm angry I want you to be angry about it as well I like toppers when they come with a machine that's fine, they're great I don't feel I need to have a topper my initial thoughts on this were probably the same as everybody else I'm like oh that's $600 which is $1000 Australian money when it's landed that's a lot of money for what is a relatively simple design i don't think that was the real kicker for people the real kicker was and you get a bonus mode for it and people like well now this is dlc you're the electronic arts of pinball and i think if you've listened to enough podcasts with people from stern i think the writing's been on the wall this kind of model has been coming for some time. The first real inkling of it was with the UV kit for Stranger Things. Now this, at some stage, I think Stern were always going to go down this path and they were going to have to deal with the pain of transitioning to this new world. Is it a pain? I hear they're selling quite well and the markup is obviously probably... I can't say what the markup is. I have no idea. There's obviously some profitability for Stern and the distributors on this, But, again, if you like it, buy it. If you don't, no big deal. Do I think it's great? The thing I have a problem with is, with any topper, is the artist involved? Is the designer involved? The code maker? Are they involved now if you've got something that actually changes the game? If they're not, I might have a problem with that. And I don't know if they are or if they aren't. But if I produce to you, Marty, here's my painting. I hope you like it. It's called the Mona Lisa. And you go, that's great. I'm going to put it in the Louvre in France. It's going to be fantastic. Oh, by the way, I'm just going to add a little bit of lipstick and make her smile just a little bit more. And you're like, whoa, that's not what I presented to you. You've changed it. That's maybe where I have an issue, if in case. I haven't heard, and I should ask. But again, I'm wondering, from what I hear about the mode, it doesn't really change the game significantly. But a guy like Keith, for example, would be a guy who designed the rules, designed the play field. I would include those people, designers and code makers, in something that has downloadable content for a game. And I don't know that they haven't. Well, this is the whole thing. What is the reality here? Are the majority of people actually happy with this or are the majority of people unhappy? If you look at social media, the majority of people are unhappy. But I've also heard that they're selling well and people that are getting them enjoy them. and someone that you and I know, a mutual friend, reached out and said that they're getting them because they like the look of it. One thing I don't want to do is say to that person, you suck. You suck because you like something that I don't like. Not cool. That's not cool. No, absolutely. I mean, thank God we all have different tastes. If there's a market for things, they'll sell, and this is going to sell, whether you like it or not. So there you go. I tell you the other thing, it really, probably why it caused such a stir as well, is we're kind of on the back of the Black Knight topper, which arguably is the best topper that's ever been made. And you look at these two side by side and you think, well, where's the value? And I'm putting words in Stern's mouth, but they might say, well, the value is in the extra mode that you get. It has to be because visually it's certainly not there. well that's exactly right and so it's it's all about value and value is very subjective value is different to different people you're right i mean do you want visual i'll give you four toppers you tell me your ranking of the four toppers okay i'll throw in another one five okay marty's rankings marty's top five here we go orbiter albert does top three so we're not stealing his bit okay jurassic park attack from mars from chicago gaming company star wars with r2d2 the Black Knight sort of rage. And I'll go old school. Fishtails. Rank them for me, top to bottom. For Marty. For me, top would be Black Knight. Okay. Second would be Attack from Mars. Look, again, it's just an alien that bobs up and down, but the way it does it, the way it interacts with the machine and the lighting on it, is very effective. I would then say, probably Fishtails, even though it's way too noisy and happens too often. What were the other two? Star Wars and Jurassic Park I would then say Star Wars mainly because yes it's R2-D2 and it moves but it's just not big enough, it's not grand enough it doesn't have enough presence it's just kind of okay and then I would put Jurassic Park at the bottom So a topper is more about visual for you than it is about the downloadable content Oh for sure I'm pretty much the same as you on those maybe flip flop a couple there The one thing I'll say about Fishtails is when Python Anghelo put that on that was before the talking fish that used to be on the wall the singing fish oh really basically it was he puts this on the machine and then those fish sell like wildfire pretty ingenious you're right about how loud it is i have a fishtails it has never been plugged in the topper has never been plugged in in my house because of how loud it is but it is fantastic yeah it looks good but happens it's too loud and it happens too often that black night when I first saw that. That is a topper. That just, yeah. I've never seen one in person. I've just seen videos of it and it's everything you would want a topper to be. So that being said, okay, Jurassic Park's now got downloadable content. Are they going to have updates now where you buy that Black Knight topper if they are still for sale with modes? For Black Knight as well. What's preventing them to go, here's a code update. If you've got a topper. Yeah, well. I guess it really depends on if those toppers are available. They're not going to put the time and research into creating a mode if they can't sell the product. But I would also argue that if Black Knight came out as it is and they said it comes with an exclusive mode as well. Everyone buys it. I think people would be okay with that because the topper itself, the physical topper looks like value. Interesting. I mean, this is an argument I think a lot of people have around pros to premiums as well. you know, what's the value in paying that extra? Some people will look at it and say, well, let's have a look at what it would have cost to put this together and allow a bit of markup and that's a dollar value that it should be. That's not necessarily the way you sort of look at these things because the actual development of a pinball machine is in its entirety and you're trying to recover your costs and make a profit for the overall project. Years ago, I used to get pissed off when I would see somebody on Pinside or Craigslist or Kijiji or Gumtree. Is that what it is there in Australia? Yes, it is. So any of these resale websites, eBay, and people would put a game up and it would be, wait a minute, that's a ridiculous price. I used to get pissed off at that too. And then someone brought it to my attention. Hey, you asked that price. If you get it, great. Then that's what it's worth. If no one buys it, it's not worth that much. Correct. That kind of changed my thinking of that. You never advertise your lowest price, do you? No. Right. It's part of negotiating. It's opportunity. You try to see how much you're going to get for it, and you bring it down if you're really serious about selling it. That's all. So while we're on the topic of Jurassic Park and toppers and modes, we did ask the question last week about proper ways to play games, and we did get a pretty good response. We had to check their credentials to make sure they knew what the hell they were talking about. We're not going to let anybody say, oh, here's how you play the game, if they don't know what the hell they're talking about. So we had to do some research. It took a while. We found out that this person does, in fact, know a little bit about pinball. So we're going to give them the benefit of the doubt. We got a response from Raymond Davidson, who, according to IFPA, is the number one player in the world. So, okay, we'll take his advice. Might know a thing or two. So it was Michael Peterson. We mentioned him before. So he wrote into us wanting to know sort of like the simple ways to be able to get to a game to get some points up. Ray Day gave us some pretty good suggestions. What do we have here? Okay, so step one, capture a dinosaur. Okay, that's fair enough. And step two, play System Boot, which is one of the control room modes. You need to capture a dinosaur to be able to light the control room first. That's why you do that. Then play Raptor, Tribal. He said then step four is play Virus Attack if you're good at the control room shot. restore power if chaos is lit and five play your t-rex if you haven't already then chaos meanwhile keep marching through the paddocks well that sounds easy yeah wizard boat here i come here i come billion points easy that's but you know what i was sort of reading this i was going oh actually that does actually make a logical sense and it comes back to what we're saying i know i'm sort of backtracking a bit on what we're saying about gardens of the galaxy is i was just thinking that I know you were, because it's like, well, if you've got orb multiball almost ready to go, bring in a mode that requires you to hit the orb shot. You know what I mean? So that's what this order is. It's play a dinosaur, get your control room mode. Sure, once you've done that, get your raptor, which is on the left, then another control room mode, and then play your T-Rex. They sort of all logically follow each other. I don't have as much time on Jurassic Park as you do having it at home, but some great suggestions there. and the one that I was missing was Raptor Multiball. I wasn't going for it. And when he says how important it is, I'm like, okay, well, that's my new mode of attack. Yeah, Raptor's an interesting one because it is a fairly dangerous shot. Always backhand it from the left flipper if you can. It's really quite close to the flippers, so it can actually be seen to be quite dangerous, particularly if you've got the premium melee that's got the gate that comes up and down. Makes sense. Hopefully that will help you in your next competition. And that could be ICR or who knows if things are going to open up soon. I know more states are opening up. More countries are certainly like New Zealand at the time of this recording is in great shape as far as COVID-19. Australia as well. So I don't know where we are globally. and we did have Josh Sharpe kind of mention this last week about IFBA coming back for sanctioning competitions. I would guess that we still a little bit a ways from that probably not in July but they always monitoring the situation and taking into account all of the country director and state and provincial directors and whether they feel competitions and the crowds that happen at these competitions are in some sort of safe mode and we can start again. But when you look at the number of competitions on IFPA, when you think of something like Pinberg, that's a thousand people. Going to be tough to do with social distancing and that many people, I get it. But most of the competitions on IFPA are not that size. In fact, they're probably 20 people or less. Yeah, I'd say for the most part. And remembering that the IFPA's position in this was they didn't want to be seen that they were influencing people to be putting themselves in danger. So the reverse of that is, when do they feel that they're in a position to say, okay, we can endorse tournaments again because they're happening anyway and it's the right time and we're not going to feel bad for putting people in danger. If that makes sense. I think Josh, boy, this one hurts. This really hurts. You're going to pay a compliment to Josh again? Let me take a deep breath here. Okay. I think Josh Sharpe is doing an excellent job by asking other people their suggestions and what it's like in their territories. and that's why we're seeing the decision wisely done by IFPA. Oh, that hurt. Yeah, yeah, you're right. That hurt to say. Shoking his responsibility is kind of what you're saying. Okay, yeah, okay, thank you. Let's bring it back, yeah. Back in the room. Sitting on the fence, Josh. You can't decide for yourself. You know, pass the buck. All right. Well, everybody else said they didn't want them, so, you know. That's your leader. There you go. There you go. What would you do? If you were actually president of the IFPA, What decision would you make, Jeff? Well, I am the people's president. You are. I would actually suggest the exact same thing. You know, Josh and I joked and kid about this before, but I was very proud and happy to see things like the Women's Advisory Board come into place. That they've done some amazing things and continue to do amazing things. It will certainly make pinball better. So that was a great initiative. I'm not saying it was my suggestion, but it was suggested before it happened. Anyway, that aside. Anyway, I love this decision when it comes to COVID. Yeah, in Chicago, Illinois, he certainly can't, or me here outside of Toronto, Ontario, cannot figure out what everyone else is like and what the situation is there. So you have to rely on those state country directors to make those decisions for you. I think it's brilliant. We don't know how long it's going to take, but people will make a decision. You will all hear about it probably the same time as we do. So I think we're all getting a little bit stir crazy and we just want to play some pinball. Well, we want to get out there. We want to win some awards. We want to win some prizes and stuff, which brings us to our sponsor of the week. A proper one. It is actually a proper one, in fact. So please, all jokes aside, our sponsor of the week is Ulic Store. I know them. You should know them too. when it comes to pin blades, trophies, all kinds of wonderful accessories for pinball events, go to Ulic Store. In fact, Ulic Store was a very proud sponsor of the Pinball Profile World Tour, which went to four different countries, ten different places, and Ulic Store provided wonderful shirts and trophies. And I can't say enough about them. I met them years ago at Pinball at the Zoo in 2017, their first ever show in Michigan, and it's now become quite the business, and I know a lot of other leagues use them as well. I don't know what the hell ULIC stands for, but that's just me. I do. It stands for Unique Laser Engraving and Keepsake Incorporated. Well, that makes it even better. It does, and I actually have. I won a tournament, and it was one of Ryan C's tournaments, and I have one of the trophies made by ULIC Store. It's fantastic. It sort of perspex, and it lights up. But it looks great. I think they do good stuff. ULIC Store, our sponsor of the week here on episode 10 of the Final Round Pinball Podcast. Now, what are we going to do with our sponsor? What can we do? They make trophies. Trophies. Hmm. They make swag. Hmm. Hmm. Let me think. You know what? I know the IFPA really isn't running sanctioned events right now. We've seen all kinds of cancellations. What can we at Final Round do to make pinball better for everyone? We already are by voicing this show, but what else can we do is what I'm trying to say. Well, isn't Pinberg meant to be on around about this time? Yeah, coming up in early July. Yeah, okay. Well, maybe we can do a Pinberg-style tournament of some kind. Let's do it, Marty! I love it! You know what? We did an earlier kind of trivia contest. We had Ryan Kuiper win the final round Pinfest Championship. We had Tracy Lindbergh win the final round Yegpin Championship. It's time to award the final round Pinberg Champion. With proper prizes this time. From Eulick Store. From Eulick Store. There you go, everybody. It's all just come together. So we are going to do another trivia show. Not like the last one. There will be some differences, Jeff. thank god for that in the sense that you know when we did it on episode seven we were kind of covid crazy we were stuck in our homes not that we still aren't but we just needed to let our hair down a little bit and we we all had a good time it was kind of what you saw at competitions when people would you know after competition have a few drinks and yuck it up well that's what that show was we're going to tone it down because we know replay fx and pinberg is a family show so There'll be no shenanigans, no swearing. We want to invite a lot of you listening to this program to play in the final round pinball competition. So how do people get involved, Jeff? Shit, I knew you were going to ask that. There are two ways to do this. Number one, go to our Facebook page, like our final round pinball page. Or go to our Instagram and like final round pinball. Let us know that you are interested in playing in this event. This contest will air, funny enough, on a special edition episode to be released on Friday, July 10th, which is when Pinberg would have happened. We will record that show on Friday, July 3rd. So if you're available between 8 and 11 p.m. Eastern, which in Australia I think is 10 a.m. to 1 p.m.? Yeah, something like that, yeah. Okay. This helps us with our West Coast people. This helps us. Kind of screws the Europeans. Sorry about that. Unless you want to get up early in the morning. Listen, I can't help the fact that time's there. How do you say sorry in every European country? Sorry. You know, I apologize, but we have to make it convenient for the hosts of the show. So, again, we'll record on Friday, July 3rd, between 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. Eastern. If you're available, let us know on those social media links and also our email, which I always forget. FinalRoundPinball at gmail.com. We will randomly select 32 people, which is a lot more than we did in Episode 7. Yeah. Oh, the editing. But this will be good. 32 people will participate and somebody will be crowned the Final Round Pinberg Champion with a lovely trophy from Ulic's store. Thank you, Ulic. We will even have an A and a B champion. Okay. You want to plan it, don't you? Yeah. I wish I was editing this episode. Wow. You dick. But we will also be having some special guests on the episode as well. I think you'll enjoy this. You'll enjoy this one. Because if you've ever been to Pimberg, you play in banks of four. So we're going to have our four contestants. We're going to have eight groups of four play in a group of four. And they're going to play on a modern machine. They're going to play on a solved state. They're going to play on an EM and a miscellaneous one that I think you'll enjoy. So you have to brush up on your trivia. It'll be kind of multiple choice. It's going to be fun. So we'll do that on Zoom or Skype. It's going to be a lot of fun. And that will air on a special episode on Friday, July 10th. Looking forward to it. We'll give more information again on our Facebook page and on our Instagram page if you would like to participate in the final round Pinberg Championship. Awesome. so thanks again to our sponsor ulex store for providing the trophies for this i love what leanne and david have done at ulex store they provide so much enjoyment for people some lovely keepsakes even marty has a ulex store trophy it's a great sponsor don't get me wrong love the sponsor especially that it's legit but we're now into 10 episodes all right double digits means double sponsors our second sponsor of the week absolutely oh it just amazes me the the companies that are reaching out to us to be a part of final round and use us as a vehicle to advertise their business we apologize in advance uh we do a heavy screening process not everyone is up to snuff to be a final round pinball podcast. In fact, we're turning down money because it's only the best for our listeners and our guests, which brings us to our second sponsor of the week, the Emirates Palace in Abu Dhabi. Located in a dazzling natural bay, Emirates Palace is the perfect destination offering a pristine private beach and marina with its stunning Arabian interiors and legendary five-star service. The resort brings a new experience of luxury to the heart of Abu Dhabi. costing $3 billion to build. Chump change for Final Round Pinball Podcast. Emirates Palace has 394 grand rooms and suites, plus marble imported from 13 different countries. If your hotel has marble imported from less than 10 countries, you're staying at a dump. All guests of Final Round Pinball Podcast stay at Emirates Palace in Abu Dhabi. Transportation, airfare, incidentals not included. So going back to what we spoke about with Jeff, when it comes to pinball etiquette, we did, obviously, we got that email from Jesse. Thank you very much for writing in. Who's relatively new to pinball competitions, wanting to know some things, the do's and don'ts when it comes to pinball etiquette. We obviously spoke to Keith and mentioned don't yell as you're playing. One of my pet hates. What are some other things that you would give as tips to somebody when it comes to pinball etiquette? I know there's an urge to want to help others. But if people aren't asking for help, it can be quite offensive if you offer help and they didn't ask. Yeah, that's true. I know there are a lot of good intentions, but if somebody doesn't ask, they might perceive that you think they don't know how to play pinball and that can be offensive. There's a double-edged sword here as well because I think sometimes you may even ask somebody what the rules are for a machine and they won't want to tell you. and that becomes a really awkward situation as well. So I think for the most part, people are going to be very helpful, but it can get into some very awkward situations. Whenever I've been asked, I always offer really what somebody once suggested to me and I go to pin tips.net and I'll suggest that or we had Corey Hulse on his pinballspinner.com. Those are great sources. And even in competition, you know, here's all the information. Am I going to tell them the order of here's what you do in Guardians. No, because a guy like Marty will get pissed off. Like, I'll do it any way I want. I got to get this in. We've heard that. That's exactly how I speak. Yep. You made fun of me the way I spoke last week. Don't think I didn't forget. You don't forget anything. I have no problem offering that when somebody asks me, here's the sites I go to. You still have to execute it. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's absolutely true. I'm not going to tell them the order of, here's what I need to do, or you should stack this and that, because that's different. But that's the one thing I see at a lot of competitions that can be considered poor etiquette. Yeah, okay. Here's another thing of etiquette that I would say. Hang around your machine when you're playing a tournament. If you want to get a beer, I get that beer is really important. That's a golf clap. You know what I mean? I think being ready for your turn is more important than ordering a beer or getting a beer or ordering your lunch at the bar. be there for your machine you're there to play in a tournament be there because what you've got to understand is there's usually three other people that are playing that same machine they're all in the zone that stuff can really take people out of the zone irritate them and put them off the game some people might want to do that intentionally that's up to you but just hang around your game until the round is over most tvs have a time factor in the rules if you're not there at such and such a time, your balls may be plunged. I think that's a great rule. And I've had it happen to me too. In fact, here's a story you've never heard before, Marty, ever, ever, ever. At the Pinball Profile World Tour event in Melbourne, I also walked away from a game and it was a flip frenzy. Well, you can't do that. So the person plunged the balls and rightfully so. Totally agree. Obviously, I lost the game. I wound up winning the tournament again. The sidebar, it doesn't matter. Haven't heard. But anyway, you have to do that, especially in these type of flip frenzy tournaments where it's time sensitive. Pinberg has a grace period, especially I think right after the dinner break, that you need to be back by such and such time. And if you're not, sorry, you're getting a zero there. So I didn't even think about that when we were thinking about etiquette. You're bang on there. Yeah, well, as a TD, it's frustrating for me because I'm getting all these other players around me. this is not just people in the middle of a game but when a round's about to start sort of saying we're ready to go all the other groups have started we want to start our game where is our fourth player? I don't know well they're out having a smoke or they're out getting a beer and just understand that these tournaments need to run to a certain time they're out watching Night at the Roxbury I know people do that oh Will Ferrell he's a comedy genius how dare you Oh, people in San Diego are pissed. I don't know. Is that where he's from? It's a great reference from Anchorman, but again, over your head. Yeah, correct. Well, okay, here's another one I'm going to put out there. If you have a bad ball or you have a bad break or even a bad game, don't scream at the top of your lungs when you've got somebody mid-game on the machine next to you, is what I would say. I have seen many TDs give yellow cards and if it happens the second time a red card as in disqualification I absolutely agree we're all there trying to enjoy this wonderful hobby it's not all about you and you have to be respectful of other players and their space good point Marty boy you're good at this I've got another one yeah I'm a TD you're the Emily Post of pinball etiquette I really am aren't I so it's similar in that respect the space of others that is, I would say, in the middle of your game, but also especially at the end of your game, don't freaking tilt the machine so it's right into somebody that's playing next to you. You know what I mean? Like there's some people that right at the end of the game, they get so angry that, you know, shove the machine, but there's people around you playing. That's just not cool. Not only that, if you're playing in a multiplayer game, you're affecting that tilt bob for the next player. Yeah, correct. And that's kind of what I was saying. Like sometimes I know in the middle of a game, it's fine and you're playing with your own game because if you do do a tilt through you're going to be disqualified anyway and that other person with a compensation ball but I've just said a number of times at the end of a game someone's on their player four then they'll just move the machine right at the end because there's no chance that they're going to win but there's people next door playing as well just be mindful that that's putting them off as well I've got to come to one of your tournaments whether it's the big Melbourne silver ball tournament or any of your tournaments and just read your rules and look at the rule number one says, don't be an asshole. And then an asterisk and then just a ton of footnotes. A hundred lines. Because there's another one that's kind of similar to that as well. And this is probably for TDs as well. And that is, if at all possible, if there's a ball stuck or anything that needs to be done on a machine, wait for the players on either side of that machine to finish their ball. Because there's nothing more distracting than you playing your ball and having a machine next to you, the play field lift up. It's very distracting. And the person goes in between to kind of relieve a stuck ball. Yeah, I hate shitting on volunteers for helping and stuff like that, so it's likely an honest mistake, and they're just trying to resolve the problem as quickly as possible. But yeah, if you're volunteering as a tech, as a TD, if you can wait, that's a wonderful piece of advice. Boy, you're a wealth of knowledge today, Marty. Well, some of these I've actually made the mistakes myself. So that one in particular, where someone's like, I've got to stop all this. It's like, okay, cool. I'm just going to go over there. I'm going to fix it. And then as I've started to fix it, I've looked at the person next to me and I've gone, oh, damn, sorry, forgot. We just, you know, we want to do the right thing. We want to resolve these things quickly. But you've just got to take that moment to go, okay, what's happening around? How is this affecting other people? And then go when the time is right. I think win or lose, great etiquette is always thank the person you're playing with. Yeah, agreed. It goes one step further. If you go to any tournament or anybody's home for a league night, let's say, you better remember your P's and Q's and thank the people that make this possible. Because without it, pinball doesn't grow and hosts of leagues are like, why bother? People kind of came in. They ate my food. They played my games. Not one freaking thank you? Come on. Yeah. The same for TDs, right? Go out of your way to thank the volunteers, the TDs, the people that put this together. Yeah, especially. And if you get knocked out of a tournament, don't just turn around and walk out. People notice that stuff. Further to what I was just saying, offer to volunteer. See what it's like on the other side, too. And you'll appreciate the tournaments you play in a lot more. Yeah, agreed. There's so much more to write about, but we haven't got another hour to go. So I think in future episodes, if we think of more etiquette, we will bring it up. But hopefully, Jesse, that answers some of the questions for you. So Marty and I recorded our final round pinball podcast, obviously in different segments. We did our Keith Elwin interview almost a couple of weeks ago now. And then we had our generic talk. But recently we lost a pinball legend. And it breaks my heart to say that Steve Epstein is no longer with us. But his legacy and what he has meant to pinball, the community, to competitions will live on forever. and what a treasure it has been for any of us that have gotten to know Steve. I know, unfortunately, Marty, it was a void for you too, but you certainly know what he's meant to pinball. This is what's really interesting about this guy is that I've not met him, but I've heard so much about him and I know whom he is because of that documentary special when lit. and what really struck me through that was how important this person was to the pinball community like he was huge when he had the Broadway Arcade it was he was rock star but also what really stood out for me was watching that documentary when he was talking about because remember the documentary came out in 2009 so pinball was in a bit of a slump and he was he was talking about the pinball community and what it was and what it was then. And he had a bit of a tear in his eye. And I just remember to myself thinking, how invested this person is in the pinball community and what he did to make other people's lives more enjoyable through pinball. An absolute labor of love. And there are not many people like Steve Epstein. And I wish there were more people. But if you can learn more about Steve, whether it's special and lit, which you're right is heartbreaking at times. On the IFPA website, I posted a bunch of different links of great interviews, videos, him recently at IAPA, and some great news articles about what he did at Broadway Arcade. The birth of Papa with Roger Sharp. I have to tell you personally, when I saw him at Pinberg last year, I was through the moon because I knew exactly what this man meant. That was the first time I had met him. Knew about him before through Special Inlet, through Broadway Arcade, through Papa history. I wanted to spend as much time as possible with Steve, and he was so gracious. In fact, I was talking to Steve, and sure enough, Roger Sharp came up too, and the three of us were just talking, and everything else didn't matter. I was just trying to absorb as much as I could. For me, losing a legend like that breaks my heart. I think of the Epstein family and the friends of Steve, but I feel we were given a gift. To me personally, in the four years of me being in pinball podcasting, one of my proudest moments. And I'm really trying not to do a plug here because I really want you to see all those articles on IFPA pinball. But to me personally, when I sat down with Steve on pinball profile and did an hour plus and could have done five hours with Steve, it meant a lot to me. And especially now to capture what he was all about, what he stood for, what he meant to competition pinball, to the IFPA, to Papa, to Broadway Arcade, to the birth of modern pinball, all of those things. I'm proud that I was able to capture that. It's a tough listen to now with him gone, but I do want to share one more thing with you if I can, Marty. Yep, of course you can. This was recorded at the last time I saw Steve Epstein and it was in Florida. It was following IAPA and it was right before Freeplay Florida. And Steve actually showed up at one of my world tour events and I was shocked that he was there. He wasn't even playing so he was just showing up. Again his passion for pinball and the community and of course I whip out my phone I'm like Steve can I talk to you for a second and this is my last conversation with Steve but it shows you the character of who he is and how he wanted to give back to pinball. Steve Epstein's here we're at the pinball profile world tour event at the district Eat and Play here just outside of Orlando, and thanks very much for showing up. Oh, man, it's my pleasure. I've really been invigorated by all the great positive things that have been happening with all the great people that just seem to be engrossing themselves and getting themselves into pinball again. I think it's a world of openings that's just going to blossom, and I think we really are in a way at the very beginning of something that's going to be huge. Well, this event tonight is an event that we're raising money for Project Pinball. We're going to do very, very well. We're going to give away a bunch of raffle tickets. We've got some other sponsors on board, too, but I know Project Pinball means a lot to you, too. It absolutely does. I am so motivated by the fact that Daniel's been able to get 46 hospitals with pinball machines. I think it's the greatest type of thing to have kids and adults being introduced in environments where they're really not being in a very positive, but pinball creates an environment that will help them emotionally and physically and also get people to play pinball again. the awareness is great and it's spreading around all across north america people buy tickets all over the world to for this event and you know we're going to even try to get a machine up in canada in 2020 with the help of daniel and project pinball i'm more than happy to hear that and i i hope to be able to help and do whatever i can in the future to make sure that you know this project stays sound and stays current and stays big steve i gotta tell you here in 2019 it's been great to see you at events, to see you at Pinberg, to see you here at IAAPA and Preplay Florida. Is that kind of the goal? Steve Epstein's back? Well, I hope. Hopefully I am. I hope I can play well enough to start really representing what I used to be able to do, and I'm practicing a lot, and I'm going to be at a lot of tournaments from now on. Love hearing that. Great to see you as always. Thank you, Steve. Thank you, Jeff. Well, that's it for another edition of the Final Round Pinball Podcast. Thank you very much for listening. My name is Jeff Teolis. My name is Martin Robbins. Marty where can people find us? They can find us on Facebook and also on Instagram. And you can email us at finalrampinball at gmail.com. We'll be back in two weeks. Until then, stay safe, love one another, and thanks for listening. Thanks, everyone.