It's time for Bonus X. It's time for Bonus X. It's time for Bonus X. Do you like Bonus X? Listen to that Bonus X. Just get a bunch of Bonus X. Brought to you by Bonus X. You could want a Bonus X. It's time for Bonus X. It's happening in 3, 2, 1. Hi. So, I feel like I should apologize for the delay between these episodes. But to be perfectly honest, I blame Diane. She took off the whole frickin' month of December to play Mary in the yearly Nickelback Nativity. Her cousin Chad plays Baby Jesus, of course. So, yeah, it's been tough to get stuff done lately. Side note, if you have audio editing skills and would like to join the Bash team, hit us up. I have a feeling Diane's job might be opening up soon. Anyway, here we have a snazzy little episode covering a couple of the Chicago Expo seminars. Seminarly. So I realized that I'm pretty sure my teeth are slowly shifting forward as I age. and uh i think that's contributing to the siblings that i never realized that i had until we started this show well what is that the only thing that makes you think your teeth are moving or do you have other supporting evidence just visual okay just visual but uh i looked in the really well and i saw my teeth like the angle looked i remember them not being angled as much before have you did you have braces i've never had braces no maybe you need to see an orthodontist i think it's too late man nah you can do it anytime all natural you can get a invisalign so i guess the first thing we we did was one of the seminars so the the showroom actually opened at noon on thursday but at 11 was the arcade seminar like how to start an arcade right how to like run and or operate an arcade or whatever yeah it was kayla and rachel from electric bat yeah alan and chris from wedgehead and zespi jim yeah jim from uh logan from logan arcade that was actually really really cool and really insightful it was packed yeah it was standing room it was completely full yeah we barely got a seat yeah and we met up with we met uh jamie oh yeah yeah virtual wormholer yeah he was waiting to go in i'm sure if if i owned an arcade i would be all over that too because it's like you get these different perspectives of like what's it like to run a free play arcade and what's it like to run a coin drop arcade and a lot of interesting stuff yeah yeah i mean i'm sure he was there just for the hangs because he's you know yeah he's jamie dude he come on he i don't know if you notice within when we first met him within like five or whatever 10 minutes right of us hanging out waiting for the seminar to start he was recognized yeah yeah like four times like oh hey jay oh jamie yeah everybody knows about him hey i love your stuff man oh thanks you know yeah i felt like i was hanging out with like a celebrity yeah that's funny it was really funny yeah and he he really had let it get to his head He was kind of just intolerable, I would say. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he asked me if I wanted an autograph or something. Remember that? Yeah, I don't know. We'll just be better at not letting it get to our heads, I think. Oh, man. Well, I'm still appreciative that he saved me that one time. He was a great help getting me back from the future. Anyways, all love, Jamie. Okay, hang on a sec. Got to jump in here for a bit of clarification. You see, Don and I can have a dry, facetious sense of humor, which means sometimes we say the opposite of what we mean for comedic effect. So if you're new to the podcast or if you're Canadian, you should be aware that Jamie and, in fact, all of the people we met at Expo, except for Ian, were incredibly nice and welcoming to us. Not a single douche or douchette among them. Seriously. The preceding statement applies to the following people. Okay, so going back to the seminar. they covered a couple of different topics right i think the first one i that comes to mind is um like tokens versus like free play or like the card coin drop yeah coin drop versus card systems or free play model and uh there were different perspectives which were pretty cool yeah in my you know arcade fantasies i'm always thinking which of those things would i do and i've heard certainly kale and rachel talk about it on their podcast which is the electric bat and they're very hardcore token people. Right. And there's a lot of challenges associated with that too. And there's the cost of the tokens themselves and they wear out and you have to replace them and all this stuff. The coin mechs. Yeah. The coin mechs aren't super reliable. You got to literally collect all the coins, which, which a lot of this stuff I learned from them during the seminar Yeah Yeah But then there just the satisfaction of it There the old school vibe of it yeah you have like a token with the name of your arcade on it like it cool oh which by the way i forgot i brought you one oh cool so i like your bat yeah i gotta give it to you i forgot about it i it seems it seems like they all kind of recognize maybe the the card system is like somehow it's it's not great to use it's convenient right that's like the thing it's like it seems to be that it does serve a purpose yeah i guess it depends on the on the vibe on the on on your goal right and i think um i think jim was saying that he can see a path in the future for going to a card system yeah because they're on quarters at at logan arcade right right and i totally like it's funny because there was like some slight maybe tension at this at this topic well well they definitely had different differing opinions on it which is interesting because they're they're all successful yeah great arcade and from what from what kale said they've compared notes with wedgehead who does free play right and they're kind of comparable about the same you know in terms of revenue per game that they're calculating so right free play versus coin drop yeah yeah and then you know i wonder right like a card system yeah right like i wonder how that would stack i mean might be about the same maybe by eliminating some of those barriers maybe you make a little bit more money right but you're missing out on some of the physical tangible nostalgic kind of vibe so i prefer tokens that's that's what i've had in arcades growing up as a kid like that's the nostalgia play for sure yeah but i was just gonna say rachel made a good point that with the card systems there's a disconnect between how many credits you have on the card yeah and the cost of the game and it can be confusing and almost more predatory to your customer yeah yeah because they're they're putting just a amount on there and then it's x number of points and then this game is this many points and then at the end of the day sometimes they have a card that's still got a bunch of money on it and you can't use it yeah and do they ever come back and use it probably a good portion of them don't which is the value of quarters where you can like you know There's still groceries or get a frigging gumball from the machine, whatever. Yeah. And it sounded like Rachel didn't like the idea of people paying for something that they weren't going to use, which is very commendable. Yeah. Perspective to have on it. It was, it was interesting, man. I really, I really enjoyed that conversation and kind of discussion and seminar and getting to hear the different perspectives and, um, mad props to all those guys, you know? And, and also like dude, Alan from Wedgehead, man, it was the first time, you know, we'd met him in person and, you know, we kind of followed each other a little bit on Instagram and stuff and he kind of he kind of had like a commanding presence man which i was like oh wow this dude is he like knows his stuff and yeah and and something else i learned from from that too was you know how competitive the portland market is i had no idea that portland was like basically like a tiny like area with like the most games yeah it's like most pinball per capita or something yeah which was inspiring for me because that metropolitan area i don't think is dramatically bigger than our metropolitan area yeah yeah which is and we've got like basically no pinball you know relatively speaking we've got what like one one thousandth of the amount of pinball that they have there or something it's crazy yeah yeah it's crazy so yeah it just tells you that if you build up the scene and you build up the community it becomes sustainable and i think that's basically what kayla and rachel said was you know their success the key was essentially building up the community first and focusing on the individuals and the and the their people right and which is awesome because that's what we all want we want a community we want a place to hang out we want a place where we we belong and pinball right while it's so fun and cool and exciting and it can be hip and it's becoming kind of trendy or hip or whatever yeah at the end of the day it's a game and a game is for fun and when you play games with people it's more fun typically typically yeah so yeah it was awesome and inspiring man that was really cool yeah that was definitely inspiring and he's into like the older games right he's into like yeah he's into like he's got ems yeah like the got leave ems or whatever yeah especially got leaves and cracked me up dude that was hilarious yeah yeah it's cool i mean i hope we can check that place out sometime we have to the other thing that struck me with this panel of folks who have successful arcades is the emphasis on the games playing well 100 if you want to start an arcade don't bother unless you have the maintenance stuff figured out in advance willing to learn technical ability and understand and put the time and work in if you don't have someone you have to do it yeah and it's not just your buddy who says like yeah i can fix stuff no yeah find the money to pay someone if you don't want to do it or if you can't do it yeah it's and i agree 100 man that's but every single person on that panel fixes games yeah yeah yeah exactly all of them you can tell they all know exactly you know like yeah to some degree how to service a game right and it was cool man it was inspiring it's such a big thing these games are set up right they play well yeah the people will come yeah 100 man 100 you're also you know you're also doing a disservice to pinball as a whole by having these games out and not showcasing them the way that they should be. Yeah yeah I always on the fence about these places that have pinball where they not maintained they potentially overpriced and they super steep and impossible to play and all this stuff Is this a net negative for pinball Yeah, it is. Is it? It is. Is it better that there would just be no pinball machine there at all? We should have a SAP adjacent program. Yeah. Where we just go in and rescue these machines. Euthanize. Just for the betterment of pinball. And now for an important message. Mr. T here. Good leaders know what they can do. And they know what others can do better. They share the work and share the credit. The point is to get the job done and done right. Not to hold the glory by doing it all yourself. So remember, next time you get the big head and think you can do everything by yourself, remember nobody can. Not even Mr. T. And now, back to the show. I want to hear your thoughts on the next seminar, which is freaking awesome And I wasn't going to go, and I'm glad you convinced me to go Because by the end of it, I was blown away, man Yeah, so at noon, the same time that the expo show floor opened I was itching to go down there, man We hadn't been in there yet Right at noon, the next seminar was Doug Watts Or one of the next seminars, because there's a bunch of them going all the time but the next one was uh doug watson the artist and it was like master class with doug watson so i was like don we should really go to this we should really go to this and i'm just like man yeah all right yeah and the whole time we're like walking i'm like man i really want to go in there i really want to play avatar i really want to play x-men i felt like i had to hype it up a little bit i don't remember what i said but you i twisted your arm enough yeah yeah i was i was teeter-tottering and i was like trying to be a good you know basher pinball partner and i said you know what let's do it well and as it turned out there was a super long line to get in anyway so i don't think we wasted that much time yeah yeah right right allegedly because i didn't see allegedly that's what jamie said but so doug watson the art the pinball artist we did i didn't know what to expect but there was hardly anybody in there which was unfortunate because it was super interesting but i think everybody wanted to go to the right it was a bad timing right but yeah so doug watson was the dude who he did the art on some of our favorite games ever so it's kind of like i gotta we gotta see what this dude's like i at first dude i was i was like hugely turned off i was like man this guy's kind of like pretentious and yeah i don't i don't know he seems kind of off or something yeah but by the end of it i kind of love him man yeah he he is a real one he he really believes and he really loves what he's doing and he really feels and you can tell he put a lot of effort and thought into all of his work and design i think one of the slides i remember not sorry to like leave track here but yeah in all caps draw something yeah draw something and it was funny like the way he said it you could tell he was like frustrated with like current art you know he was frustrated with the uh with the photoshop art yeah yeah and stuff draw something draw something it was awesome yeah he was a character i mean i guess he's a professor now or something so he has a sort of professorial approach to this and he had a lot of information slides and stuff worked out yeah and went through some of his favorite ones that he had done his first one was Terminator not his first game but his first masterpiece was Terminator 2 Playfield which he had done a bunch of stuff before that but this was the one that he was the most proud of like earlier it was early in his when he finally figured out what he was trying to do with his art in pinball like that was like pretty much I believe the first one I think it was the first one where he wasn't held back Right, right. Because prior to Terminator 2, he had always wanted to locate all of the inserts on the play field. Right. And kind of help with the design and functionality of the inserts. Right. And Terminator 2 was the first time that he was allowed to do that, as far as I can understand. And, yeah, I think he mentioned something about turning the shape sideways, like horizontal, so you could actually write text and it was like a thing that yeah he'd never been able to do before and all these like it was right it was awesome and using using the inserts to help tell to help direct the flow of the shots and having them kind of pointing guide guiding you like in terminator you have like the inserts are very much lined up with the shots and it makes sense like without knowing yeah what to do you kind of instinctively see it and yeah you can kind of see where you have to go yeah and you know that like this row of things that's at the same exact angle as this ramp all these inserts these lights all pertain to that ramp so he was taking credit for that whole concept and basically saying like he's the guy who kind of came up with that idea which i never heard before it's interesting and and i did he he's so he said when he was doing t2 Steve Ritchie started to do it and just kind of lined him up vertically in a way that didn really show you where the lights were relative to the shot Steve let him basically show him a different way to do it and then the rest is history. Right, right. Man. So, yeah, that was kind of cool. A cool little nugget. Maybe he's not the only one who claims credit for that. It's probably up for the debate. He was pretty convincing. The character that he is, man, and just in general. He also did what? What are some of the big ones? Oh, Attack from Mars. Well, yeah, that was his ultimate masterpiece. His ultimate masterpiece, right? Yeah, and it's a great play field. Either way, man, you got to give him props, right? Like, legend. So, yeah, he did not only T2, he did Swords of Fury, Black Knight 2000. Oh, my God. F-14 Tomcat, The Getaway, High Speed 2, Indiana Jones, the Williams one, Demolition Man, the shadow ian's favorite artwork in the world maybe mine too that one's it's really cool i love the art really cool jackpot so you can kind of like if you just you know if you're familiar with these games right and if you're not you should look them up there is certainly like kind of like a string like a like a theme like a like a vibe like a feel that flows through all of these games and 100% has that like kind of aligned shots with the text, with the graphics, with the colors corresponding with the shots. Which is very much like what games are doing now. Right, right. I really enjoyed listening to him and kind of learning. And basically, yeah, it was like the art master class and he was basically telling us, right? Yeah. Like his process and giving us tips and like how many colors to use. Yeah, it was somewhat technical. It was cool, man. And it was like, if I wanted to be a pinball artist, what do I have to do to make it happen? And he was pretty much showing you his exact process and notes. Yeah. Yeah. And somebody was filming it. So I don't know if it'll end up online at some point. But if it does... It's on YouTube for sure. There's like a whole Expo 2024 seminar channel, like a, I guess, playlist. Yeah. Here it is. It is on there. Pinball News, Masterclass, Pinball. Chicago Expo 24. So I wonder if this is edited because he went way over on time. This is an hour long. So I watched some of it and it's definitely not edited. Not Doug Watson, but I watched some of the other ones and they definitely were not edited. Because I think he went almost like 20 minutes over. Yeah, that was hilarious. He was like, what do you want me to do? Stop? He had way too much information and notes for like the hour that he had. Yeah, man, I love that. That was awesome. That was an experience, man. Doug Watson, thank you. Yeah, definitely watch that. It's worth a watch if you're interested in game history, because he also throws out some just kind of fun anecdotes and stuff that you would never know that doesn't exist on the internet or anything like that. Like being like an insider in the industry. Yeah, like working with all the other guys and all the designers and stuff like that. It's very interesting. And he's kind of hilarious in his perfectionism and stuff and self-hate for his own work. Wait, what did he call his bad work? Abysmal. Abysmal, yeah. he's like and i don't need to show you anyone else's bad artwork because i could show you my own this particular example is abysmal and he trashed it he goes this doesn't make any sense here yeah all this color for no reason these shapes here i just thought they were cool i was just trying to show off prove to people that i could paint pretty things i just like hot women and oh man yeah that was awesome but he was explaining like the evolution of when he start what pinball playfields were like when he started and how he was trying to turn the play field artwork and inserts and everything into a way to help understand the game better right oh and also make it more edgy yeah and appeal to younger people because the games were a lot more pg i I distinctly remember him saying that once he left Gottlieb, he had more creative freedom and he chose to go a little bit more edgy and a little bit more, you know, kind of appeal to like a younger, more alternative demographic. Yeah. That's where he brought in like the women and like dark kind of like. Yeah. Heavy metal. Heavy. Yeah. That's right. That's what he was referencing. That's right. Heavy metal. The style from heavy metal comic and movie and stuff. So, yeah, that was great. Please watch it. Watch it. Super cool. Doug Watson. Yeah. Maybe we can get him on the podcast sometime. I would love to, man. That would be great. Hark, faithful listeners. I'm not sure we'll get another episode finished before Christmas, so go ahead and have yourself some figgy pudding and put on your gayest apparel, and may sweet little baby Chad Kroger answer your pinball prayers for a new X-Men machine. Happy holidays to you and your pin. Kin. Kin. Kin. Thanks for watching!