Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 47 - Why No Balls in Mouth?!

The Pinball Network·video·1h 49m·analyzed·Jan 13, 2024

Analysis

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TL;DR

Hosts defend Jaws design choices against community complaints about missing shark-eating mechanic.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast Episode 47 focuses on community backlash over Jaws pinball's lack of a shark-eating-ball mechanic. Hosts Joel, Travis, and Tom discuss why designer Keith Elwin and engineer Harrison Drake opted against this feature, arguing it didn't work mechanically and that the game's actual shot layout complexity is more important than casual players realize. The episode highlights a disconnect between casual/collector enthusiasm for Jaws versus online complaint culture among hardcore pinball fans.

Key Claims

Keith Elwin and Harrison Drake explicitly stated they designed and tested a shark-eating-ball mechanic for Jaws but removed it because it wasn't fun and didn't work well mechanically.
high confidence · Joel and Tom cite this directly from 'a podcast' where the designers spoke about it. Travis says 'straight out of the designer's mouth straight out of the lead engineer mouth we tried it and trust me it wasn't fun.'
Casual players and high-end collectors have very positive reactions to Jaws, with higher sales velocity compared to other recent releases, while complaints primarily come from online pinball fans active on message boards.
high confidence · Tom states this from his experience working for a dealer: 'a lot of people that were not aware that there was going to be a Jaws pinball machine at all... they are absolutely blown away... sales velocity is way higher... the push back that we are seeing... is coming from your average pinball fan that consumes content or is active on message boards.'
The Jaws playfield contains a complex multi-part shot combo involving the left ramp, upper playfield mini flipper, reverse 180 wire form, horizontal spinner, moving target, and mini playfield elements that most reviewers have not documented.
high confidence · Joel describes an elaborate combo in detail, noting 'out of all the reviews I've watched out of all the first impressions I've watched nobody has even mentioned this combo at all.'
Pinball community members build imaginary 'best possible versions' of games in their minds before release and become disappointed when reality doesn't match their mental model rather than trusting designer decisions.
high confidence · Joel explains: 'when people are aware of certain games coming out certain themes coming out they will build up the best possible version of this in their reality... what matters is what is the best version that they've built up in their mind based off what they think is possible not what is possible not what can be done in reality.'
Jaws features a moving Target mechanic that pops out of the playfield, a horizontal spinner, a lower flipper for ball catching/trapping, and Cactus Canyon-style dropping targets as core distinguishing features.
high confidence · Tom describes: 'the fin Target that comes out of the Playfield... the horizontal spinner... the lower flipper... the moving drop that's... kind of like Cactus Canyon drops.'

Notable Quotes

“they said we designed a Mech for you to shoot the ball into a shark's mouth and you know what it sucked... they have designed Iron Maiden Jurassic Park Godzilla Avengers like is that not enough credibility for the pinball Community to trust their head”
Joel@ 9:49 — Core argument defending designer credibility against fan complaints
“I just don't understand how people don't trust that or don't like okay I I'm sorry but I'm G to trust that Keith Ellen made a smart design decision and provided us the best game that he thinks he can verse no we got to leave this shark Mech in because people are going to be upset”
Travis@ 18:49 — Expresses frustration with community second-guessing of professional designers
“your high-end collectors they love what they're seeing your casuals they love what they're seeing so yeah it it's just I don't know maybe it's just another another release and just something for us all to complain about”
Tom@ 19:50 — Notes disconnect between positive market reception and online complaints
“if a game is Just solely about one Mech and that's it like I'm sorry it's going to get boring and it's going to get boring fast very fast”
Travis@ 28:13 — Argues for design depth over iconic single mechanic
“you hit that on the fly it comes back down figure8 to the mini flipper and from there you could in theory hit on the fly or you could actually post trap stop the ball... and then you have a decision... hit that moving Target that comes up out of the Playfield to finish everything off”
Joel@ 31:14 — Details complex shot combo that demonstrates game design depth being overlooked by community

Entities

Keith Elwinperson Harrison DrakepersonJoelpersonTravisperson Tomperson JawsgameStern Pinballcompany

Signals

~
sentiment_shift: Podcast explicitly positions itself defending designer authority and decision-making against community online complaints; frames this as major thematic focus
high · Episode titled 'Why No Balls in Mouth?!' dedicated to explaining mechanical design decisions; hosts repeatedly emphasize trusting designer expertise
?
community_signal: Significant gap between online community sentiment (negative/complainant about missing mechanic) versus casual players and collectors (positive reception); suggests echo chamber effect on message boards
high · Tom: 'high-end collectors they love... your casuals they love... push back is coming from your average pinball fan that consumes content or is active on message boards'
?
design_innovation: Jaws contains underdocumented multi-stage shot combos with mini-flipper integration, wire forms, and playfield flow that most reviewers/players are missing
high · Joel describes elaborate left ramp → upper playfield → mini flipper → reverse 180 → spinner → moving target combo chain; states no reviewers have documented it
?
design_philosophy: Hosts articulate philosophy that shot layout geometry and combo potential is superior to iconic bash toys for long-term gameplay satisfaction
high · Travis: 'if a game is Just solely about one Mech and that's it... it's going to get boring and it's going to get boring fast'; Joel draws parallel to Addams Family Thing losing appeal
?
product_strategy: Keith Elwin and Harrison Drake made public statements about testing and rejecting shark-eating mechanic, demonstrating design iteration and justification to community

Topics

Jaws pinball design decisions and shark-eating mechanic absenceprimaryCommunity vs. designer authority and trust in pinball designprimaryShot layout complexity and pinball design depthprimaryCasual player vs. hardcore fan perceptions of game qualityprimaryKeith Elwin design philosophy and track recordsecondaryTournament player backlash and community criticismsecondaryPinball mechanics: spinners, targets, flippers, mini-playfieldssecondaryJaws market reception and sales performancesecondary

Sentiment

mixed(0.55)— Hosts are positive about Jaws design and defensive of designer decisions, but frustrated/critical of online community complaints. They acknowledge community concerns as valid even while disagreeing. Market reception is portrayed positively for casual/collector segments. Frustration targets online complaint culture, not the game itself or broader community.

Transcript

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[Music] the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast Tom it's it's 2024 and we need another we need to upgrade we need we need we need a better third wheel man this is I thought Travis I thought you were leaving for loser kid why are we still stuck with you yep I got fired already miss should tell gone man it was a New Year's incident don't worry about it it's fine so this is uh this is take two this is take two of recording this episode episode number 47 47 we're we're slowly getting to 50 uh we started recording and and Thomas or Tom wow Travis sounded like a uh jet engine like a robot yeah so it's his furnace going off and then he had a w it's everything everything it it was quieter going back back from California from indisk in the plane than it was on Travis's microphone it's just so consistent it's so every episode Travis so the question Travis is are you ready to record this podcast I am a th% ready and fired up Joel God okay not furnace furnace isn't fired up anymore you turn that bad boy I am freezing for you two a-holes right now I've turned everything off there's a freaking blizzard out outside no I'm not going to have heat I'm basement basement are the same temp all the time all the time fake news fake at least you're not in Wisconsin Tom how you doing man you ready to go you ready to go you feeling good yeah I mean that's a blizzard outside so I got nothing better to do all right I'm hitting the button we're three guys who like the dog pinball so we came up with the cloud we Jo and in and we call ourselves triple triple triple trip trip okay here we go here we go we are we are fired up ready to go um we are actually recording this on a Friday afternoon Friday afternoon this a little different than us so everybody should be awake everybody should be ready to go um we have a little bit of busy work here right off the top first off I want to give a shout out to Jason uh Jason sent me an email and he says he is hosting they have a EP epilepsy tournament that they host uh or it's it's called Flippin flip for the Cure it's on March 9th in Toledo Ohio this is the third annual uh apparently all the proceeds go to epilepsy research uh that is extremely hard can you say that word Travis no okay uh last year apparently they raised over 10K and um Johnny crap Johnny crap did the artwork for it so it's in Toledo Ohio uh it's calling flip for the Cure um I don't have anything specific other other than the date March 9th definitely give that a a try if you're anywhere in the in the region uh but yeah apparently a friend of his is making the shirts he's donating portion of every shirt shirt to charity as well so um yeah Jason thanks for letting us know about that that should be good other side note patreon patreon we do a patreon and we are super appreciative of that if you enjoy Tom's face if you look at Tom's face right now he is looking straight at the camera as he should he looks beautiful one he's growing a goatee he's it looks incredible it's kind of a uh what did you say you look like the uh the evil mastermind of of heist you know like yeah that no that's what uh Michael Joy from uh player two he's the owner of player two he told me that last night at at the tournament in Green Bay so um I was I he's like it looks awesome it's a good look it's a good look I'm glad we have two men on this podcast and a little babyfaced boy over there with that lack just Travis one day one day man he's no comment I mean what what do you want me to say Joel I'm nearly 40 years old and I barely have to shave what I yeah I have nothing do you shave I mean is it like a I mean every n day yeah it's a little bit little bit of Shaving involved I mean we've already established this if I try to grow out my facial hair mhm it's like I'm a liveaction Joe Dirt and I don't want that are the hairs like coarse or they wispy Define wispy like if you don't shave for a few days and Monica touches your face is it sandpaper or is it just sandpaper it's like gray and black sandpaper it is horrible like a brillopad my 14-year-old grows more facial hair than I do I don't understand it I don't question it perfect perfect well anyways I was mentioning patreon because one we need shaving equipment no we should get a Harry's I wish we had a Harry's uh we could prob get a Harry's sponsor uh Harry's shave club and we'd make Travis do the uh because he's the only one that needs it right um but no if you like Tom's face Tom is currently using a new piece of equipment called the Elgato prompter and thank you to patreon because patreon just paid for me to buy myself an Elgato prompter Travis already has one Tom got one so hopefully next time we do this podcast I'll be looking at the camera instead of at the screen but no really we do appreciate it um we really just kind of keep that any sort of financial support there we just kind of keep it on the side whether we like support a tournament or donate it and away or buy ourselves equipment it's all just for the hobby or it's for the podcast you're not unless you're just listening to the podcast uh then it goes without saying that you won't be seeing jeel yes you will not you will look at the the thumbnail and that's what that's what it'll look like so um that's it for housekeeping uh stuff to talk about um I want to talk about Jaws and the the reason I want to talk about Jaws is what in the world are people thinking people are going nuts over jaws and their own their opinions on how the game should have been designed how they they're complain they just it's so much complaining like they're complaining this is this is Keith Ellen and people are complaining about the layout or the or the the mechs or the I just I'm gonna let Tom go first because Tom is buying one I want Tom to I want Tom to talk first because I'm revved up I'm ready to go I Know Travis has thoughts but I want to let we're gonna let Tom talk here well here's a good question yes okay are we starting from the very top with cuz everything leaked out no and then it just kind of went from are we just going straight to that apparently you have to shove pinballs into a shark's mouth to have any joy in life where we starting at why why why isn't the shark eating a ball that's that's the main focus of hundreds ofs do you care you're buying an Le do you care at all that that shark is not would have been nice sure but is would it be the determining factor for me buying this game no no no not at all and we've had a lot of talk we've had a lot of conversations Tom and you've said before you go I think I think I might be out on buying L I may be a premium guy from here on out but you're in on an Le so you saw something to make you pull the trigger on that yeah I saw a bunch of modes and shots that looked uh extremely interesting I like I like the horizontal spinner I think that's really neat I love the um the fin Target that comes out of the Playfield and you got to hit it um there's some really cool shots I love the that lower flipper uh where you can actually catch the ball and trap it and and then make a shot with it um there's just there's just a lot of unique things going on um I was kind of skeptical about the mini Playfield because I'm again I'm not a huge mini Playfield person uh but it it seems like the ball really doesn't stay up there very of very long I should say and we'll we'll talk about the mini Playfield more later as there were some uh videos alluding to uh it was an unmake shot to get up there which I was like what yeah yeah yeah yeah what yep what is I mean what's just the right okay yeah so balls in shark mouth right balls in why is there no why do you not shoot the shark in the mouth so let's let's just start with the facts the facts F A CS facts straight out of Keith Ellen's mouth and it's Nagel right is it what's the the it's Harrison Drake yeah and Rick so it's Harrison Drake Harrison Drake is the guy that the straight out of the mechanical engineer and the game designer straight out of their mouth they said we designed a Mech for you to shoot the ball into a shark's mouth and you know what it sucked why does the pinball Community hear that and go nah like nah they're wrong they didn't try hard enough or like we're talking about Keith elwin and Harrison Drake they have designed Iron Maiden Jurassic Park Godzilla Avengers like is that not enough CR like credibility for the pinball Community to trust their had oh a dinosaur that ate the ball you sure do he sure did he pop popped that guy right in the mouth he just gobbles it on up so what do you want to do you want to you want to hover a shark over top of a ramp that drops down just like Jurassic Park what what Keith was saying was sharks are underwater so unless they put a lower Playfield in and then put a shark under there the only way that sharks can eat the ball is the shark would have to come out would have to come above the Playfield so now you have a shark that pops out of the Playfield and you shoot in the mouth what did you just make you made a scoop you made a scoop it's nothing new you shoot the ball in the in the shark's mouth boom now what does the ball do what do you do with the ball is does the shark throw the ball back up that's dumb does it become do you want a Subway so great the shark pops up you shoot it in the mouth what the shark pops down and then the ball just shows up somewhere else in the subway and if so that was one moment in the entire movie One Moment In the entire movie so do you save that you save this crazy Mech until the ver like some critical huge moment deep in the game because the game is designed for you to be what Quint right and you're like fishing you're like catching sharks you're not blowing every shark up you're catching sharks so theoretically you shouldn't be shooting every shark in the mouth like it's I just yeah so then you have a scoop you got a you got the shark pops up you shoot it in the mouth and then it disappears right or do you want it to blow up too because if it's just a standard a stagnant thing are you going to make a scoop that moves back and forth on the Playfield like how you going to do that I just I I'm honestly convinced Stern has screwed up they should have just had one shark on the Playfield that eats all the balls 3,000 Lees $20,000 a piece it evidently would have sold out just clearly for that I just just the stuff I mean it Keith Ellen said it and Harrison Drake said it they said it in a podcast very clearly we designed that Mech and it wasn't fun it did not work well and the fact that the that it seems like the entire pinball Community can just ignore that and give them no benefit of the doubt of like you know what I'm gonna trust arguably the greatest pinball designer working today I'm gonna trust his call to remove that Mech or not pursue that Mech no these keyboard commanders are sitting there like nah they should have tried harder they I just I it it's it's mindblowing well it it goes back and we've we've talked about this before a lot off podcast and somewhat on podcast that when people are aware of certain games coming out certain themes coming out they will build up the best possible version of this in their reality MH like it doesn't mean it's the best possible version for real for what the bomb is for the direction of the design the intended design the mechs that have already been tested that doesn't matter what matters is what is the best version that they've built up in their mind based off what they think is possible not what is possible not what can be done in reality but just what they want to see it's like everybody's creating a what's that called like the VPX pinball stuff or whatever yeah virtual pinball to where it totally ignores any type of physics any type of actual real world mechanical I mean it just does and so when people think of it that way and they build it up so much in their in their minds when it doesn't match up with that one particular thing that's what they run with and I think that's kind of what we're seeing and on the second part of it I don't know too many people that are going straight to Stern's website to listen to a podcast either so if a lot of people get their information off of YouTube or off of Facebook message boards or pinside they're going to run with that you know what I mean like you hear one idea then you just form that idea and you're like oh yeah that's what I think too and it becomes like a group think thing and you just run with it now that's not being said like of course you can be disappointed that there's not a certain type of Mech that you want it in the game but yeah it's it's been stated why it's not there to me it makes sense I mean we've talked about this for a few months now that it wouldn't make any sense to have a shark eating a ball at all in this game at least to me it wouldn't have I I thought it would have been it would have made more sense to have boats on this it would have made more sense to have certain shots that just lead you to experience the game on top of the water because the shark is always below the water like I I don't know it's almost like people didn't Envision this as Jaws they thought it was going to be shark NATO or something like that like I don't know what happened with jerk yeah it's but but we talked about it though we did talk privately that yeah when there's not a shark eating a ball that people will probably lose their minds and I think even on the Stern podcast they even acknowledged that yeah that they realize that too I mean and that's just that's just a common thing like people want to see stuff like that happen and it's funny it's not because it's overly difficult to make happen we've seen plenty of mechs that have done something like that before it's just yeah they simply stated it wasn't fun it wasn't cool and it obviously didn't fit with the direction where they wanted to take the game yeah so uh one example of that is Turtles right there are oh oh God a no signal it's back baby he had it fixed but it is back it's back baby all right you you played with turtles is that what you said so Turtles people are like how do you design a teenage meet Ninja Turtle game without there being a Subway like how how do you not have an underground Mech you know there are people that just kind of befuddled by that but you know what there isn't one there isn't one and it's great game it's great game I'm not every single time I play Turtles I don't look at this going I hate this game because I can't shoot the ball under the Playfield like but when I look at when I look at the current design right so let's say hypothetically when you bash the boat the boat pops up so instead of the shark facing up what if the shark was facing at you and his mouth was wide open what do you have you have one shot you're going to shoot him straight in the mouth that's it I'm assuming with the code there will be as the sharks get harder you probably have to bash it more than one time if you have it like that no it's one and done every time so it sounds like oh up glop gobble down so would you have to do then you'd have to design something like the snake Mech on the premium Metallica where it's like the mouth is closed you bash it enough and then the mouth opens that would great don't get me wrong that would be a really cool Mech but how do you like can you really fit all that in in away and then what do you do with the ball how do you magically get that like you're not you don't want it to spit back out that seems odd well not only that it's you know there's wizard modes that still need to be put into the game so it's not like that there's not going to be a battle with jaw to where you're not hitting that bash toy and then it goes back under and then you got to bring it back up and hit it again so many times for like the ultimate final battle and it's not like there's not going to be a challenge mode for that CU that in itself just makes sense that something like that is probably going to happen so and they've already said there's certain elements of this to where you can play as Jaws too you play as a shark eventually like that's coming so like I have to think they're going to incorporate certain things like that into the future so but I just don't I mean I get it that you we've talked about this a lot people have it in their head this is the theme they start brainstorming if I was going to make the game what would I do and sure I understand if if if if anybody would have told us Jaws six months ago and you're like well what do you think will happen it's like well I assume you'd hit a shark with a ball like or I assume a shark's gonna eat a ball like you would assume those things but what I find frustrating is why there's no trust you know when you hear straight out of the designer's mouth straight out of the lead engineer mouth we tried it and trust me it wasn't fun I just don't understand how people don't trust that or don't like okay I I'm sorry but I'm G to trust that Keith Ellen made a smart design decision and provided us the best game that he thinks he can verse no we got to leave this shark Mech in because people are going to be upset well so there's an interesting way that this is going down at least on on my end with working for a dealer a lot of people that were not aware that there was going to be a Jaws pinball machine at all MH that are extreme casuals they're seeing this game for the first time and they are absolutely blown away like they love the colors they love the shots they love the video assets so a lot of that the feedback that we're getting compared to other games that have come out in this past year is way better and the sales velocity is way higher so really the push back that we are seeing and reading about the most is coming from your average pinball fan that consumes content or is active on message boards but your high-end collectors they love what they're seeing your casuals they love what they're seeing so yeah it it's just I don't know maybe it's just another another release and just something for us all to complain about at some point I mean it it happens you know I don't want to to just [ __ ] all over everybody's opinions because everybody's opinion is valid even if we're like huh well we don't agree with that at all but it's still valid that somebody can give an opinion right we're not going to put on the fiveyear rule on them or anything like that but the reality is too is that there is a disconnect between people that might not understand pinball to the extent that others do meaning if you do have your extreme casual and they see something they're not so jaded to where they don't necessarily not see something cool in it in the same way with a high-end collector to where they view pinball through a much different prism or much different way than what somebody else does it's the same way like if I see a new pinball yeah I want to see the lights yeah I do want to see the ball do something cool but to me seeing the ball do something cool also involves other parts of the pinball machine and not just one Mech because where a lot of people forget a Mech isn't just one thing a Mech could be flippers it could be a pop bumper it could be the way a shot you know hits a switch and gives you a different sound or a different jackpot effect a lighting effect there's many different ways to go about that so when I see a pin I want to see what the shots are like I want to see does the ball do something cool in that way and to me seeing a Mech interact with a ball in a cool way yeah that's excellent but guess what a ball can also interact with the pinball machine in a cool way because the shot is cool the geometry is cool right and there's a lot of that in this game and there's combos that I've never seen before out of any other pinball machine and I think I even went over one with Tom before when we were discussing the upper Playfield and everything and I was just like this is freaking amazing and out of all the reviews I've I've watched out of all the first impressions I've watched nobody has even mentioned this combo at all and I'm just like I'm that shocks me but at the same time it gives an indication of where people are at with their mindset how they view pinball machines and what they actually see and I don't know that could be for various reasons it could be because their skill set only allows them to see so far into the game it could be that they're just very much zeroed in on one particular thing and they have blinders to everything else I mean there's could be multiple a multitude of reasons of why this is happening well so so Tom when a brand new game is released or announced or you see the trailer leaked or otherwise when you first look at the game what do you think you're first looking at or looking for is it Mech is it art is it are you already do you go straight to shot layout like what what are you what's going to grab your attention first I I would say for sure shot layout and also like what's different in this game compared to everything else that's been made um you know because we've seen in the past some cookie cutter designs where it's just a fan layout and this has a lot of differences I mean the the first thing that pops out is is like you know again that fin Target popping out of the Playfield um I don't know if that's been done in any game where I mean like where a moving Target pops out of the Playfield the other thing is a horizontal spinner yeah you make on a stick right people are saying Mick on a stick but like that's always out or Dracula Dracula Monster Bash it's always out well not always but it's but combining that with the Cactus Canyon drops essentially where they drop up you have a chance to hit it and then they drop back down the fact that we have a moving drop that's what I know Cactus Canyon's been a big hit here at this house and a big part of that is the drops in the middle because they're so it's so easy to know like any casual that pops up you don't have to say anything they know I want to shoot that and that's what I think in Jaws I hope it's not you don't have to hit much for your first chance of the ball the post popping up holding the ball just like hectus Canyon and then you see that and oh I know what I'm you know like I think that will be a hit I think that is going to be the mech that people really talk about and are excited about I totally agree with you that Finn but you said you look at shot layout first and honestly I think that is not normal I don't think the majority of novice players really even think about where the ball is going to go the majority can't comprehend where the balls go I'll tell you that right now after listening to a lot of the YouTube videos and reading comments a lot of people cannot comprehend geometry and the physics it seems like the average person just wants Like A bash toy or a shark that eats a ball yeah what's the thing you they want they want a main focus of a toy yeah and it's like there's more what's that they want late ' 80s early 90s pinball that's what they want they want Medieval Madness or attack from Mars that's just hit up the middle no hit up the middle no they want a fun toy and I'm all for toys I want I want fun mechs I want fun Mech I mean when I saw the Godzilla reveal right this was this is a hindsight thing but I remember when I saw the Godzilla reveal I was so focused on like that building's going to be so cool bashing that thing it go down it becomes a diverter the bridge Mech the like I was I was me being the more novice player than you guys I'm looking at these mechs going there are so many cool things to experience on this pen and then I remember Travis coming out of here he turns out to be right but he's like I think there's a chance that this may be one of the greatest games of all time and I'm thinking like why like why would you assume that but I know you guys are going the next level of you're looking at the shot layout the shot pass the comboing opportunities that's what Keith Ellen brings to the table is and that's what after I so with flipping out with friends we actually showed the like I had watched the leak trailer and we had a discussion about it before the official thing was announced which probably shouldn't have done feel kind of bad about that Stern but um one thing I watched the heck out of that leak trailer and I Drew I drew a shot like I tried to draw all the shots based off of the leak trailer and once I started drawing that and actually trying to map out the paths that's when the genius of Keith elln really stood out to me where it's like don't look past what the shark is doing or not doing and just look at the layout and once again the you how unique Jurassic Park layout is how unique Godzilla's layout is he did it again of of another you know the fact that that horizontal spinner that Tom is talking about whips around and and whips behind does a figure eight shot behind the pop to Fe like what kind of shot these shot passs are incredible I think too Joel it's very important for people listening that what we're talking about it doesn't mean like oh that's just a pure excuse for why there's not a certain Mech in the game or something like that what this is aimed at is that when you can go beyond just a foundational level of seeing a game and then that's all you see is just like one thing it will open up like so many Pathways for your pinball enjoyment for your hobby for everything that you like in pinball when you start understanding actual shot geometry why is this shot here does it have meaning like everything in a pinball machine especially a Keith elwin design it has meaning to it there's a reason why it's there and it's like that for every designer but people just they they need to learn to see that part once you go beyond it that's when you can really see the true Excellence of Games stand out because the bottom line is if a game is Just solely about one Mech and that's it like I'm sorry it's going to get boring and it's going to get boring fast very fast so if all we're thinking about is oh this pinball machine just needs to appeal to a casual and that's it to put in one credit location and then that's it you know what I mean it's it's going to get boring it's just the reality sorry to interrupt Joel but everybody talks everybody talks about like pinball moments which which I totally get like I I I like pinball moments too but like think of Adam's Family okay you see thing grab the ball it is really cool when you first see it but if you've played the game a thousand times I mean this game's been out a long time time that me kind of gets annoying you know yeah when it grabs the ball and puts it back you're like I just want to play so I mean it's a great moment in time but it it it loses its luster after a while and just just going over uh the video Stern did going over the game I was amazed at how many different things are in this game and some there are some like elements to other games that Keith has done that are like hidden in there but you got to find it like uh like um the bounty hunt you know you you pick your shark and you got to do certain things to the game to get get the uh to get the actual shark yeah kind of reminded me of like Avengers collecting The Avengers or or um kind of Iron Maiden has something too right yeah made and working towards uh your um uh cyber something yeah Cy power features so it kind of reminds me of that and there's there's features you know there's other things too that you know I'd rather have people discover it for themselves but I mean there's there's a lot going on that people don't realize I mean I'll say during the gameplay debut there was a shot combo on there that we just talked about a little bit earlier that I remember I texted Tom and I was just like holy effing [ __ ] did you see what just happened look at this and basically it's legitimately a shot combo that involves hitting the left ramp going up to the upper Playfield right then you're using that mini flipper up there to hit it back around the mini ramp that hits the reverse 180 wire form which makes it go back up vertical while you're on the lower play field then the feed comes back down to the left flipper and then you have a decision you can either live catch or on the Fly you can hit the horizontal spinner that's the real shot so you hit that on the fly it comes back down figure8 to the mini flipper and from there you could in theory hit on the fly or you could actually post trap stop the ball yeah yeah on that post and then send the ball horizontal with the mini flipper up the quick Shot Lane which again sends it vertical again and depending on how good you hit that activates that little hurry up that quick shot hurry up and then the ball feeds back down I'm not even done yet then the ball feeds back down to the left flipper and that's when you can hit that moving Target that comes up out of the Playfield to finish everything off and I'm just like this is am when we talk about pinball moments and stuff like that how can that not be cool because you have to make an effort to finish that and when you do how freaking rewarding would that type of combo be as opposed to just bash tourn player you only you only care about score Travis or go that's another thing too what is this what like what is going on with this war from everybody on tournament Players like I see people you suck you all suck it's like I see people bagging on Carl for like blowing up a machine and looking like like I'm not even going to name the name like looking like he's joyless I'm like what kind of [ __ ] is that like seriously like um you just it just doesn't make any sense to me but here's the thing Joel here's the thing here's here's thing the fact is with tournament Players yeah when we're playing in a tournament yeah of course we want to score a lot of points of course we do the games are set up more difficult but guess what also because we know how to score points and we know how to progress through the game when we play them at home we get to see more of the game yeah and we get to play wizard modes so maybe just maybe if people would realize that and start approaching a game from that standpoint you will see more of the game you'll experience it more and your enjoyment will be so much further I mean Joel Honestly compared to where you were at two three years ago right are you having more fun today I like you less is that the question yeah or you having less I like I like you less that was it's okay it's okay you can hate my guts am I enjoying pinball more I am I am and what why is that like I don't want to put words in your mouth but why do you enjoy it today from a gameplay standpoint compared to 3 years ago there's so 3 years ago I I mean I still typically focus a lot on progression but I understand there is something appetizing of like if you actually start to pursue points and the Godzilla thing in December really made me start to do this where i' never crossed a billion i' never crossed a billion points and I did it twice and it was huge and it was because it's like okay I'm not I need to get some points here in these modes and guess what you start getting points you get more extra balls or you get further in the modes or all of a sudden things start to open up that weren't open before so not only did I progress further in the game I was on my third City I had like I saw Planet X at one point or something like it was just not only did I get further in the game I also got more points than I ever got and I and I understand my excuse and I and I don't mean it in a bad way but I never cared about points because I knew I wasn't gonna get them like I wasn't gonna get like I'm not going to tell myself I'm not gonna have fun on Godzilla until I get a billion points like the heck with that you know have fun with the game but the better you get at a game you're going to the points come with it and and so I don't care like I've never you know when I'm in a certain mode and it's like well I can finish the mode by hitting this shot or I can do ramp ramp to multiply it and hit the shot well depending on how I'm feeling I may say screw the ramps I just want to get out of the mode move on but I know you guys are like no ramp ramp ramp ramp ramp ramp you just hit the nail in the head of why it's more fun to think this way you just went through thinking of okay do I do a risk or reward which one do I do and because you allow yourself to have that decision yeah that makes the game more fun if you didn't think about it at all you would bypass that immediately well and you would go straight to just so Godzilla vanilla pinball Godzilla tier 2 battles a lot of those are flight or flight or flee and you know for a while I was like I just want to get through this so it's almost like I just want to get out of the mode I want to get out of the mode and and after it's like no these battles are fun like fight them for a little bit you know and but I totally get what you're saying what I what I my thought was it seems like would the pinball community be happier if Keith Ellen would have taken Guardians of the Galaxy taking groote heads out and put in a shark mouth because that's apparently all they want and I that's no disrespect to guardians but it's just like that is a fan layout with ramps that turn to your flippers right orbit left orbit is that is that genuinely what the pinball Community wants because what you guys are talking about what Travis just got all excited about was this crazy combo layout flowy unique experience and and I just it's it's one of those like and that's where I just wish can we just show a little Keith and a little bit of respect and trust him when he says I designed that Mech and it wasn't fun because well we can answer that right now of whether the community would want that or not what is the community comparing Jaws to what games uh probably Godzilla and Jurassic Park yeah and then I've heard foood Fighters that's it yeah so you're naming off a couple of games that have been well received over the past couple years and one of the games is literally the bestselling game in Stern's history like what what are we really comparing here to yeah you know what I mean it's like even and we've talked about this before and there's a lot of people that are on such high level that even their supposed mid-tier or slightly above average efforts are probably going to be better than the vast majority of people's s tier effort like that's just the reality of it oh you're saying a from a designer standpoint yeah from any standpoint like not just a pinball design from anything it's just like we're judging this game up against all-timers right like Jurassic Park Godzilla those are all-time great machines po Fighters well received when it first came out does it say something that we're judging Jaws against those I think it does we're not judging Jaws against Venom we're not judging Jaws against like Big Buck Hunter yeah you know it's not it's it's not like that yeah I mean they're judging it off the bar just like you said that's just the reality of it so my The more I've so the The more I've watched it and it's like okay so what are people complaining about about they're complaining about the mech or a lack of Mech but I what I've thought about is I thought about foo fighter and I've thought about Deadpool you look at Deadpool Deadpool really doesn't have any Mech like any crazy Mech there's really nothing there but yet Deadpool's a top 10 game and part of it is the layout like I think a big part of it the layout every time you hit that Katana the katana ramp it's fun the schnick shot it's fun like that that's the thing that I look at Tom's game behind him I see Rush he's not playing rush because he just can't I just can't wait to hit the time machine want hit the time machine yeah I just want to hit the time machine I just I just want to see the ball stopped with a M I just want to hit the time machine like he's not playing uh he's not playing Avengers because I just want to hit the Captain Marvel ramp like it's not the mech that's gonna give him that pulls him back in it's it's code and it's the layout you want to have a game where the shots are continually bringing you Joy and that's the thing that I I feel confident in I have no doubt that this layout is going to be fun to shoot and even an upper Playfield Keith isn't an upper Playfield guy but that upper play field only has three shots you have a Target and the ball's gone or you hit the another horizontal spinner and the ball's going to kick out to one side or you hit another ramp and the ball kicks out another way that's it you're up there or you do nothing you hit the ramp it's gonna whiz right through it just like Foo Fighters like so what what's more fun so so they're the probably the two most popular games so you have Godzilla and you have probably Medieval Madness and Medieval Madness I mean majority of that game is hitting a castle yep you know so what's more what's more fun you know hitting a castle over and over again and watching it explode I would say I my my friends and family when they May step up to a game if I'm borrowing a new game from Zach you know and and it's just like they want to know what do I need to do really really what they're asking is what do I need to do to experience the coolest Mech in this in this game that's that's that's what a novice player a non- pinball person wants they want to step up to the game experience a Mech and luckily Godzilla bash a building you're gonna experience it and and jaw has that too you have you have a boat hit the boat hit the boat bring up the shark hit the shark hit the shark and even like Toy Story or you hit the left ramp one time doke Kaboom ramp boom that's fun like I agree I'm a fan of Max in that way I I would hope that every game has a Mech that a novice player can enjoy or experience in a relatively easy to achieve Manner and and that's that's I I'm in that that's why I think like Monster Bash is super appealing because of how many cool mechs there are in that game or Cactus Canyon like he was talking late 80s early 90s there's a lot of that out there but I'm just telling you it's I think I think Jaws is going to be so much more than that and has the potential to be I was saying earlier you have it I I have I have faith that the layout is going to be enjoyable but I also I have faith that Ellen is g to make a fun rule set here a fun Co like he's proven that Iron Maiden incredible rule set Jurassic Park incredible Godzilla incredible like there's no way this like those the things that I'm I'm surprised people aren't comfortable understanding or like he also has somebody new on his team that is sharp Elizabeth I can't pronounce the last name gki gki gki it but either way she has a high-end pinball IQ I don't think people realize it so that right there that's enough as well but I I don't know I think so the weird part with all this guys is that I'm surprised by the amount of people in 2024 that still very much expect pinball to be just as if it was in the early 90s and they're still stuck in that era and they think okay that type of pinball machine still needs to exist today when maybe one of the big reasons why it was successful for its era is because it released in its era like it made sense for that time and that doesn't mean it's not a great pinball machine right Medieval Madness attack from Mars fun pin Twilight Zone fun pin so Cactus Canyon fun pin but a lot of these are products of their eras as well so imagine imagine if Medieval Madness came out today and nobody else has ever seen it nobody else knew it existed and it's up against Godzilla it's up against Jurassic Park it's up against Foo Fighters it's up against all that I don't think it would be near as popular just because you're looking at the themes you're looking at unique combo shots that have been done since then yeah I mean there's big reasons and that's not to take anything away it's perfectly okay for something I mean it's like that across every industry whether it's movies TV shows toys whatever a lot of things are products of their era so I think now if you look at everybody that's putting out games no like they've tried putting out games again to where A bash toy up the middle it's called stranger things they did that Y and what it had one run early on early 2020 late 2019 early 2020 they brought it back for a little while but it's not like it's crushing cells non-stop to where everybody's like oh this is the design we all need to go back to it's fun for what it is but simply put guys it just it longterm in 2024 it doesn't move a ton of units those type of designs they just don't yeah I mean what what's everybody asking Brian Eddy for out of his next design are they asking for a fan layout asking for a shadow es layout so what are we talking about here I just I just think people forget that they memory hole it and they revert back it's like all of us are we're just all chimps hitting hitting our computers and everything just trying to figure out this world and I think it's just people just forget that part it's it truly though the true answer it's it's what we talked about at the beginning of this and and maybe move on but it's just never time to move on answer is we're talking about this for the next three hours we're talking about Jaws Joel the the true answer is people hear jaws and they immediately are like what you know they're envisioning that in their head what's that going to look like and they all assume you're going to hit a shark in the mouth with a ball they all just assume that and the fact that that one thing isn't there makes them apparently question the entire design and that's I'm looking right now like I'm looking at Stern's page so Jaws apparently doesn't have the mech that people want Venom like I enjoy there's things about Venom I really enjoy but there's no there's no go like when a novice player stepped up to Venom there was nothing I could tell them that was going to excite them where like hit this they're just it's not there Foo Fighters like there's no when you think of Foo Fighters there was no Mech that popped into your head but they went alien theme you got a really cool Overlord in a fun upper play field that's it Bond you got the rocket that people complained about that's the only Bond on a wand told that ws are like great mechs that everybody wants so by that logic Bond should have just did Gang Busters from day one yep so bond is that rush you have the time machine which some people say is just copy paste from Lord of the Ring but it's but that's like Rush actually has t of me too people don't realize it Rush has a ton of me with the diverter and the fork and everything but now we're talking about like I understand the term Mech could mean flippers could mean drops targets could mean a fork a diverter of this or that just want to see a plastic toy on something let go of it they want to see a unique sculpted with some sort of mechanical feature that's that is that they haven't seen before Mando didn't have it we don't have Travis anymore Travis's camera is gone really the last standout Mech I think is Godzilla and I I honestly I think between the building the bridge the Mecca Godzilla turning and the the unique uh Magna grab that like that is something I think Godzilla was kind of one of the last games in the in the recent I don't know last few years that really had standout mechs and but yeah it's unfortunate that jaws and Tom's brought it up twice this moving fin I think is the standout Mech the fact that the the the area around the fin is uh plastic so they have really unique lighting effects blood in the water lighting effects like that is going to be the thing now now somebody on Facebook that they didn't they didn't understand the concept of the moving thin and I was just like I'm like what way I I don't know just they don't they don't comprehend that a sh underwater and the playfields the water hit the captive ball throw the blood in the water that's the chum so you're getting the R around that fin yeah and you you uh you shoot that shot for your Harpoon the fin comes out you shoot the shark it's like in the movie it's on there's artwork on the Playfield I'm looking at right now it's like I I don't get it I I don't get how you don't don't visualize that it's seriously because a lot of people Tom and this is just how it is and I see this all the time even people people that are part of Facebook groups on pens side own 20 plus pens they the extent of their knowledge and what they know doesn't go very far into what you can actually see or what you're capable of seeing in a pinball machine and that's not necessarily it doesn't mean it's a bad thing it just means that's the choice that they've made to go that far with it to where they're more concerned about something needs to be a 3D sculpt or something needs to just be modded out like crazy or it needs some type of speaker light on it like that's the way that they look at the hobby because I've known Le buyers too that will buy something specifically for the art and it just sits there it never gets played like Tom at all Tom doesn't play oh yeah Tom yeah of course yeah he just does it for the flex but yeah it's it's crazy too though cuz we saw the same thing happen with rush to where people just will not look at the Playfield and they won't read what the inserts say it gives you all the information on there that you need now of course it could be better in some instances just like like we talked about venom for instance you know after you get to a certain part there's combos in there that you're not aware of until you actually start it yeah so yeah there's always going to be deep Cuts but well this was the same artist who did Rush too and I play field the artwork looks great yeah um I think the reality is a lot of there are people that buy pinball that they are so focused on a thre minute experience like they just want to see the thing and that's enough but the reality like the truth is that designers have to design for a three-minute experience and a 30 plus minute experience and trying to keep a game entertaining I mean you you brought up Medieval Madness people you know after you destroy that castle maybe twice in a game people are at that point it's like what am I doing am I just grinding at this this point and and that's that's trying to you know and sure if you have enough mechs in a game where you can kind of that's what I like about Godzilla where it's I'm G to focus on building and oh now I'm in bridge multiball oh I'm in Mecca it's like you're focusing on different aspects of the of the game and some of the older games whether it's Cactus Canyon or Monster Bash or uh toaden you know like there are so many mechs in the game where you can kind of get distracted or move around and what are you focusing on any moment but I don't know I just I think there are a lot of people there that they're just so focused on what is the thing and my fear is you're going to get that game you're going to get it in your game room you're going to hit the shark in the mouth and then what like if if that's is is that's if that's enough for you then okay but you know I'm glad would be very boring pinball would get very boring very boring very quick if all the manufacturers want to do is just one Mech and then that's it and you get your wow factor for five plays takes you 30 seconds to do it or one minute and you did what the games are so much more than that so I'm going to I want to go ahead and transition to streaming and what I mean by streaming is we've had two reveal streams recently um that we can talk about and and they're similarities and their differences so one I think it's really cool that Stern they had their they they did their trailers they had they had some behind the scene video or like a bigger video but then a few days later they had a pre-recorded stream of Keith elwin playing the game and explaining the game it was 16 minutes and it showed I think it was like two multiballs how to start a mode like showed a few other things like it showed enough to give you a good idea of what the what the overall concept is of the game as well as trying to show you some of the shots um well we'll just start with that Tom what was your initial takeaway when you finished 16 minutes are up finished it what were your first your initial thoughts of that stream I thought it was well done it explained the concepts of the game really well like I felt like it was you know partially a tutorial on the game uh partially just showing it off kind of thing and uh I mean those were my thoughts I thought it was what really well done uh as far as showing off the game that's had you locked in your Le purchase before that stream after when did that happen no it was more after the stream I guess I so the stream helped I had I no I had said I was GNA get Nelly um once the pictures came out but the the actual gameplay video solidified it for me sure what about you Travis so which part are we talking about here like how the stream was revealed the actual gameplay just your initial 16 minutes are done you know you had a thought afterwards of like it's over what was your like where what was your heads space at that point well so yeah the game play was what I expected it would be just because we've already seen pictures of the Playfield and we were already aware of okay here's what the shot geometry is going to be like and we could kind of figure out what some of the modes would be like just by reading the inserts so yeah that was it went as expected I would say on the actual reveal portion like I don't know I don't know if it necessarily put the game in the best light and that's that's no fault of Keith Elwin because he's just playing the game he's been asked to show it off the best they can well how do you best show off a game after the game play and you do that in the post edit and you do that by making it to where whatever somebody the I guess you could say quote unquote the actor or the subject you have to be able to support what they're talking about also with additional information so I could see how some people if they didn't know necessarily what like for Tom and I of course we could watch that video and we understand what's going on because we have a foundation and a concept of other pins of years and years of other designs other rule sets for somebody that's brand new that's trying to figure out what they're seeing if it's not just smack dab right in front of their face and plain English sometimes that's hard to understand so you're talking about like arrows or Graphics or text being exactly yep yep just supporting what whoever's talking supporting what they're saying because it's not a live broadcast that's a little bit different if it's totally live and you're going was rushed out kind of thing I yeah I don't know I don't know if it was rushed out or the reason why they went about that way but I just know I think it would have it would have done it some some good to have a a little bit more editing with it to say Hey you know since Keith is pointing this Direction Let's highlight that on the Playfield and then let's also have a little a little explainer here and somebody definitely they did an edit on it because there was a couple of jumps in the middle of it to where it obvious that there was gamepl missing at some point because you saw the scores jump and you kind of saw the thought process mixed in too like something had already happened but we're not quite sure what it was and that's fine you have cuts and stuff like that that's just what I would like to see that if there is a gameplay video explaining stuff I would like to see a lot of things explained it's just it's almost like the um the attract tutorial that you see on all these pens that Carl does that's excellent to where you see the arrows pointing in certain directions you know something like that because a lot of people are watching this for the very first time and they're trying to get an idea of what do the shots do what does you know this this light if that's lit what does that do you know it's just I don't know it it's already hard enough with pinball the barriers that are up for people to truly understand what's going on so you want to make it as easy on people as possible so if I had any critique that would be it that I think the game could have been put in a much better light for sure from the get-go especially with all the leaks that have happened with you know the opinions coming out from after the game was at CES which we talked about you know a little there because there's even been videos out talking about how the games were set up difficult in their eyes and you know I don't know and I don't know if the games were set up super difficult to begin with because it looked like everything was set to default so who knows on that it's just you know I think that there's just various ways that they could go about this that would be a lot more beneficial to the product overall if that makes sense I get I get what you're saying and and so what do we have to compare this to we have previously most of the time it's a jack danger dead flip reveal stream and as somebody I have never done a reveal stream but I know like when I borrowed Labyrinth with barrels of fun uh our stream was one of the first if not like the first kind of professional well not it was I know Bowen did his and Wormhole so we were one of the first but I I remember the the pressure that I felt where it's like I I really want I genuinely want to show this game in a good light because my brother and I if you've watched the stream you know our skill level so if we're missing shots and I remember I think it was Carl Carl messaged me and he goes all right Joel I need you to be honest is Labyrinth hard or is it you or is it the layout like kind of like a I I want you know there's pressure there I want to show off the game in a good light and I know my skill level that could limit that in one way or the other it so Keith is doing his thing it's almost like his skill levels the other direction you know barrels of fun or Labyrinth Bowen did their initial reveal Bowen's skill level is so high that it's like are we giving an accurate representation of what this game is because just because you're ripping combos doesn't mean that everybody else is going to be able to rip that combo so they're in a live type situation you know I all I can do is just play it and I'm going to be as authentic and genuine as possible because I there's nothing else I can do and I hope to show the game in a in a good light and honestly it's not like I'm faking it I'm if we're having fun even if we're bricking shots or or it's even that much more rewarding when we finally beat a mode because and then hopefully over the course of streaming that if you tune in for the second stream or the third stream we just streamed alien first stream alien we had a great time we never progressed very far in the game My Last stream at alien I almost beat the game like I was two modes away from beating the game so people get better so is there a perfect way to reveal a pin especially if it's live I don't necessarily know that if you do that with Jack danger though you're going to get the energy you're going to get the hype that Jack danger brings to the table sure Keith Owen's not a hype man that's not his role and I don't want him to fake it I don't want him to be looking at the K hey guys hey what's you know it's just like I'm I'm glad Keith is being Keith but if you know Keith at all you know like he was enjoying his experience he was having fun with that and his goal in that video is just to show he wants to show there's this mode there's this mode luckily it doesn't look linear you can tack what do you want to do do you want to close beaches do you want to focus on shark attacks do you want to be doing this do you want to be doing that you know it's giving me that Godzilla Vibe of here's eight different directions you can go at any moment what do you want to do I'm gonna let you do it um so I really like it I get what you're saying I know Zach took one of my Venom streams pulled out one of my games from it and did exactly what you're saying Travis of adding arrows adding circles it helps and Stern I think think shared that video like it it it does help communicate so I I like what they did I I agree with you I think they could go one step further add in a few Graphics add in and they could really take it to the next level yeah I to show off the pin I personally think and I've said this for years now on previous podcasts and everything the best way to show a game off early on is through a controlled edit it can be a full game play but then control the edit afterwards I think showing a game for the first time just with live gameplay you're you're kind of playing with fire right there because that there's a lot of variables that happen that you can't necessarily control like if a Mech fails if the game's not set up properly there's a lot of things that could go wrong with that and there is a lot of pressure that comes on making the game look fun in general so I think you could have the most stoic person ever play the game and you can make it look fun still in post you know you don't you don't necessarily need the the Jersey Jack dad like pumping his fist like he did in Toy Story anything like that but you can show ways of that so yeah it's just I don't know I mean I I will always feel that way that having an edited video to reveal a game would probably be the most efficient thing but I understand why people choose to show off live gameplay you know at the very first and early on I get it one two punch makes sense you do the reveal trailer I think Jersey Jack did it I think with Toy Story as well as Elton Sean it's like then you do an edited gameplay video and then within a day or two you have a live stream and that's what we got we yeah we have a live stream coming it was supposed to be today apparently it's got moved back to Monday and I I'm looking forward to that live stream and then obviously if you're on the fence of whether or not you're going to buy this wait a few weeks I know I should get one I'll be streaming on flipping out other people be streaming it like there's going to be plenty of ways to consume that that info but I I mentioned two streams so that was the Len stream and maybe we're turning you know hanging a big turn here but um uh Looney Tunes there was a Looney Tunes stream recently that bug put out and it was a similar thing it was it wasn't a I don't think it was a live stream I think it was a recorded stream showing off the game so similar things well we'll start with Travis this time when you came away from watching that video what your thoughts I won't lie I made it just a couple of minutes into it and then I couldn't I just couldn't watch anymore I'm not a huge Looney Tunes fan so hearing the sound effects and all that and now the Texas Chainsaw Massacre one which I'm not really big on that theme at all I watched the full thing through because I was very curious but with this particular thing I feel like I've already seen the layout and everything so now I'm not NE not necessarily trying to figure out where the shots at I'm just trying to figure out okay what are the PO potential modes here and everything but I got to get past the sound effects of L tunes and not saying they're bad because they're obviously on theme on brand I'm just not a Looney Tunes guy so you know and plus we don't sell spooky either so I have really no reason to Deep dive down into that but I probably should for the podcast shouldn't I so you only you only speak positively of games you sell right I mean we're that's what pinball media does right oh yeah naturally yeah Venom best game in the history of History by yours today by your today it's yeah it's like anything else no game is absent of critique every game should get some sort of criticism because things need to get better you know what I can say about the Looney Tunes layout I am impressed by the layout I think what spooky has done here is it has my attention a lot more than any other design that they put out before I mean it is Miles better than what Halloween and Ultram man were and it's it's way better than what Scooby looks like so you know I still want to see this pen I still want to play it I would still if if I Looney Tunes in person I'd go play it he just don't want to hear it no I I agree I I I watched Looney Tunes well I'll let Tom go Tom what you the you Lun tune stream what were your takeaways yeah I thought I thought it was fine for what it was um it I the The Sounds didn't really bug me I guess cuz I I do like Looney Tunes theme M um a lot of what I saw though was uh a lot of stacking and and like blowing up score yeah and uh for a company that doesn't promote the tournament scene uh I thought there was a lot of scoring going on but uh yeah uh I also thought there was a lot of there was a lot of orange I think uh Luke n horniak would love this pen there's it is a lot of orange and I think part of it's the powdercoated ramps I think I think there's something visually I just I think I like stainless steel I just want to see gray R I don't want to see colored it's too colored it's too much color but um I see yeah sorry I just wanted I mean there's a lot of stacking going on too I mean bu bug alluded to you could stack up to three multi balls and a mode at the same time which I was like wow that's a lot a lot of stacking I agree and I'm not I'm no I'm no pinball expert like you guys are but I I've played enough now to realize I I don't I don't want to Stack multiball ever I don't want to do it normally it's a because I'm not typically the point chaser I'm using a multiball to progress so if all of a sudden I'm stacking multiballs I feel like I'm wasting that security that I could be saving that multiball for another mode and that's something where I mean there's plenty of examples of that but like Godzilla it's like okay I'm I'm I'm real close to building so let me get into a battle let me start that okay I'm out of that well cool bridge is almost ready to go let me do that like I want to and sure some of the modes are unique in a way but but yeah the idea of stacking three multiballs that's not exciting to me because I feel like another thing you run into is now you have three light shows going on that have to somehow work together you have graphics and animation and call outs for three different multiballs that are all going on at the same time I just feel like that experience is going to be a mess and that's what I think people complain about with jjp the fact that a lot of jjp games you can stack multiballs it can be you can very easily get to a point in a jersey Jack game where you have no idea what's going on and it's a and that's where you get the Toy Story shoot everything call out because you genuinely just shoot everything Travis's hand is up tra Travis has Travis has something to say I just want to point out and Tom will laugh because I'm sure he's hearing this right now Joel is thinking like a tournament player right now because he doesn't want to put everything together at once he wants to hold something back to help him progress further through the game and that's yeah I mean that that comes right down to it yeah you you proud papa are you proud well there yeah and there's a reason why other games they don't have every single multiball just stacked together endlessly like other things lock you out and that's for good reason and for the reasons that you put because one the LCD just becomes a mish mash of just everything and things get confusing out the Playfield the GI tends to like blend in together at that point and you've got to really really focus in on what progression you have otherwise you're just spamming everything and just hoping that you hit something so yeah I could see I could see how that could be a potential issue but did the modes at least look fun overall like the way that those worked I think so I mean don't get me wrong I'm looking forward to playing the game um I think it can be a fun game or should be a fun game the layout is definitely very intriguing watching both the Texas chamsa massacre stream and Looney Tunes the way that that I mean bugs played the heck out of this game there's no denying that the way that he is comboing shots and you know every single ramp feeds another flipper so it it very much helps you keep the ball moving and going around in a very unique way um that all looks very fun I mean that kind of goes back to what we were saying with jaws and the unique flow and comboing of the game that people apparently just don't see on a reveal trailer but but yes when I mean he even said it in the in the in the video that he's like oh yeah we can we can stack three multiballs together in a mode so we can really blow this up but there's some risk reward there because when we come out of it we're going to have to rebuild up all three multiballs and that's never a fun Fe feeling that's never a fun feeling when you are miles away from starting multiple different multiballs because then you're just you just kind of feel like you're through the yeah you're in jail you're you're in jail you're just going through the motions to try to move towards the next potential thing and I and I think some of the best games out there do a really good job of spacing things out in a way where you always feel like you're one step away from something else and that's very useful you just you want as many features close to the start Button as possible and you want it there consistently even when you're coming out of modes or you're finishing something up just like you said you want the next thing to do in the game to be very accessible otherwise yeah when you turn it into just a pure wood chop that's that's what drives players away speaking of accessible uh I think the addab ball feature is under the uh the shot Under The Flipper the lower right flipper yeah yeah yeah so that I mean to me those are difficult shots sometimes so I saw guess you're going to have to earn it but yeah well looking looking at the layout that's what excites me about it is that it doesn't look like an easy layout ites at all it just doesn't yeah even though even though bug makes it look easy but yeah he's a really good player I I think I've said that before like he is definitely a good player I and I Know Travis you and I talked about this off the podcast we think this game is going to be very tough for you know casual players oh yeah casuals will get absolutely destroyed on it it it's coming but that's okay though because even if they have it in their house put the rubber bands on the outlanes put the ball save all the way up get the banana flippers out you'll be just fine yeah it'll be good banana flippers that's not yeah um yeah I mean I'm excited I'm excited about that I was just trying to think ahead on um I think uh super awesome pinball show they had some guests I I'm trying to think I mean right now here we are the beginning of 2024 obviously Jaws just came out I think I heard something about American pinball they're trying to get a game out another game like gtf I feel like is kind of come and gone at this point nobody I don't really know anybody that has it the hype on that's really died down um wasn't it like bu show at Expo yeah Expo yeah um so I'm thinking hopefully American pinball is coming out with something else sometime soon obviously Stern just showed Jaws uh Jersey Jack I mean Elton John I'm not I'm not really seeing I don't know how many people have got their games yet so I hope the hype is still there on that game I had a ton of fun with that game when it was here genuinely had a ton of fun with that game when it was here um was there a Mech that I was dying over no but like the shots were a lot of fun and and trying to build up the the Superstar jackpot or whatever where you have to do the piano multiball is really cool the the rocket like I had a lot of fun with that game um barrels of fun is chugging away on Labyrinth I would assume they're going to announce I thought I I thought I heard was super awesome that their plan is to announce a new game every year so does that mean before the end of the year we'll have the second barrels of fun game hopefully um I know P3 they were kind of on hold hopefully they'll have something new to announce sometime soon cgc I they better not announce anything until they start making some P fictions um oh that kind of leads this I think I think Josh said uh recently that uh they were pretty much starting the line for Pulp Fiction so good um so cgc they do remakes or they have done remakes um padr gaming right padr gaming is is has been said that they now have the ability to make remakes um I'm excited about that because I know I really enjoy some of these older games um just even though you know we said it in a negative way at the beginning going back to late 80s early 90s but I I enjoy that type of game I do as long as it can have can keep me entertained with the code so I'm excited to see what that is I recently had a a pinball Brothers game so pinball brothers and Pat gaming kind of have a a thing right isn't it pinball Brothers like designs the game and P gaming makes it or I don't they they have some relationship right let's go with that something like that so yeah so I alien was here in the house my real quick takes on alien I actually had a ton of fun with the game it was a lot of fun the theme immersion was great the sound package was incredible the layout is good it's not amazing it's good that the the upper uh flipper ramp shot to lock a ball is extremely frustrating and it's not because the shot is hard it's to feed the shot is hard that's what I just feel like if you're to put an upper flipper in a game and make a critical shot off of it you got to give it you got to give the ability to feed that flipper easily and there's only two ways you feed that flipper really and it's hoping it feeds it through the pops or you have to hit it with another flipper shot so you have to hit a a shot to the left to feed the lower left flipper and then you have to hit that shot to feed the upper right flipper and then you can now have another shot it's just I don't I struggle with that but um overall I had way more fun with the game than I initially uh expected um so if you have like a lineup of a lot of Sterns it is a cool it is a really enjoyable change of pace my only negative thing I would say is the build quality I wasn't it is like firm it's a Well it feels like a built like a well-b built game but I will say there were three connectors on the game in three different areas that weren't even plugged in so you know I immediately out of the gate had issues with the ball trough get on there wasn't plugged in like it was just you know stuff like that and it wasn't until the second time that I streamed it that I realized my right spinner wasn't working pull look under the game it wasn't plugged in you know it's just simple things like that hopefully were they were they Molex connectors Molex connectors I mean they have uh very unique and well-built like pcbs unique pcbs underneath so it was super easy I was like here's the switch for the switch at least you just had to the connector and looking on the and I'm like two header pins and it says right spinner plugged it in boom working so it's there you go you know stuff like that plus it's just the the familiarity of the system like the computer and the display are one unit like the screen are one unit in the backbox which I as somebody that streams there was no way for me to direct capture it it's just not possible so it's just little things like that that I'm if they're going to be doing remakes I'm very curious to see like I really hope their build quality is as good or close close to cgcs because that's that's really what sets cgc apart is not only they're adding light show adding they've redesigned mechs to make them stronger better whatever bigger display but the build quality is always so high that that when you buy like a remake you feel like you genuinely are getting the best version of the game I hope that Pat gaming does that with whatever remakes are coming um and you and I both buddy and I both we're talking about quality and camera's gone camera's gone I mean too it's like um and I think Carrie he even came out with a video talking about how he he came out with a video saying how he has an NDA from padr good so talking about how I guess he has access to games all this and that but then he put it out in the public that apparently these games are going to be at tpf that's exciting that is ex let's hope we get there yep so you said you said Carrie and I like Carrie Hardy I I'm a fan of Carrie Hardy I actually he was on flipping out with friends when we were talking about Jaws the other week I'm a big fan of Carrie Hardy but I know he put out a video about Jaws and I know one thing we disagree with is talk he was talking about the shot to the upper play field and it's just like okay if Keith Ellen designer of the game world renowned pinball player extremely good pinball player hits that shot and the ball comes back down you know people are like shots broken shots shots it's got to be a design shot and I just like I get it I already watched the lwin video before we came on and he made that shot like seven times in the beginning of the video and he missed it probably three times it's broken Tom I Me It's gotta be 10 for 10 Tom you know you miss your shots sometimes I mean even elwin misses shots so my thought there is it's a ramp okay so the hardest shot on on Foo Fighters in my opinion is the right ramp and guess what the right ramp is what feeds the upper play field so it's it's the hardest shot in the game and that's what I found frustrating was it was the hardest shot in the game so even when I play Fe play uh a premium I don't feel like I'm up on the upper Playfield much because it's a harder shot in the game L1 put this shot in the middle of the Playfield this should be a relatively easy to hit shot but you have to hit it clean you know Godzilla the back left ramp if you don't hit that clean it's not going to have have enough power to do what it needs to do to 180 and work its way all the way around you're going to have to hit it clean and that's fine because guess what luckily it's not like if he doesn't hit it it doesn't go straight down the middle or something like it's you can recover from that and what do what's the other option the other option is he makes that a vck a vertical upkick for anybody that's heard vck and what are they talking about vertical up Kicker what would that mean then it would it would it would register Almost 100% of the time but now the ball is stopped it is registered in that little saucer it's kicked up with no momentum and now that Ball's just dribbling out on the upper play field there's plenty of upper playfields out there like that Simpsons pinball party is probably a perfect example of that not only does it slow down the ball that ball has no speed now on the upper play field like what nobody wants that no he wants that yeah the the whole thing was just weird because we were at indisk at the time Tom and I were and that's when I got messages about the game in general and just you know what's going on what's Happening and throughout the week I had you know I really didn't know what was going on with it and I had watched the gameplay video the uh the reveal and I didn't come off at all thinking oh that left shot's rejecting or oh it's you know it's not a smooth shot like I just saw Keith just flat out Miss a couple of shots because he hit it off the Chum Bucket and hit off another shot which just took all the momentum down and then all of a sudden next thing I know I'm hearing people saying yeah the the ramps rejecting going up to the upper Playfield it's just a rattles shot this and that I'm just like is there another video out that I'm unaware of so so that's when I started paying more attention and yeah it's funny like carry stuff it entertains me I watch every now and again when I have time but even the the example he gave when you look at it you can see the ball just bouncing around at the front and and you know that's not because the shots broke or anything like Keith is human He just flat out missed the shot and yeah it's just it's weird because I've heard other commentators saying you know oh yeah I I had a really hard time with the shot I couldn't get up the ramp this and that and I'm just thinking to myself did you hit it clean because another another commentator I listen to that's a casual was talking about how that they couldn't even backhand that ramp and I'm just like in what world are you supposed to be able to backhand that shot cuz if you look at you know the geometry of it on a pro you're going to have to need like freaking what is that Precision flippers times a thousand if you're going to backand that shot so what's the other side of that right so I know Halloween I I one of my biggest probably the biggest gripe I've had with Halloween is the fact that I can I think I've only been to the upper play there's three of them I've only been to the upper Playfield like one or two times and it's because the ramp dead center rejected so many times like that is no offense to bug or or Luke but it's like I just think it's kind of that is a broken or a poorly designed ramp if you want go Prim example of a ramp that rejects it's the right ramp on lead Zeppelin for a lot of people in the pro versions you know it just would go up there and come right back down you could even hit that sucker clean and that happens sometimes just because of the speed of the ball going up there and there's plenty of examp I mean America ramp if or Captain uh Marvel ramp on Avengers people but I get it that people are like this is an upper play field this should be something that people do or should be able to hit so the why what I was saying is the example of that then is Scooby-Doo Scooby-Doo dead center you can hit that but what's the issue with scoobydoo is people are up on the upper Playfield all day because that shot is dead center it's a safe shot and sure you don't have to hold the bookcase up it can just be a feed to the left flipper that's fine I'm glad they have that but now all of a sudden you've made your upper play field somewhere that people want to live on all day and that's what I like about the upper play field on this is you can't you cannot stay up there long if you hit if you hit your target the ball's coming down and it's going to trickle down the bottom otherwise your two other shots feed off of the upper Playfield so it's it's G to be a quick experience regardless of what you you you do but I just think it's funny that people people are so focused on that that it's a ramp if you don't hit the ramp clean it will come back that's every pinball machine that right there you just gave a great example of why the supper Playfield is a little bit different the fact that you're not going to be up there long and there's three separate exits out of it that provide three different types of shots afterwards you know most upper ramps that we see there's one way in one way out sometimes two ways out I think Foo Fighters the last one that had an upper play field for stern I think what there was one way out and then it just came back to the right flipper which is fine different designs are like that that's just how it is but that part I can't appreciate because I'm not a huge fan of upper playfields but if there is going to be one I don't want to be up there long sure and I want to have multiple exits that lead to other shots that's that's what I like to see well maybe this then just leads to kind of a bigger a bigger thought which is just just the overall negativity on on like like I we are pinball commentators right like the three of us we are passionate about this hobby we enjoy it but I want to make sure I'm enjoying the hobby I want to make sure I'm excited about what's coming out I want to make sure that I'm and I'm not forcing myself to feel that way it's just like when I look at a trailer I'm I'm I'm looking for the things that I'm excited about I'm not I'm not nitpicking I'm not sitting here telling the designer they they they they done messed up they should have done this you know or like how could they or like I get it that maybe if you're a Jaws if you jaws is a dream team for you and you see a ramp reject now all of a sudden you have that little bit of Doubt of like wait is this going to be a clunk Fest is this going to be this or but don't dwell on that like just be patient wait for another stream so you can see more people play at of different skill levels wait till tpf or your local bar gets one so you can play it in person like yeah you actually play it yes and and I just I'm amazed at the amount of commentary where it's podcast YouTube whatever it is where people are just have zero hesitation to just bash just bash what they're seeing and well you get you get clicks I mean that's you know the content on YouTube a lot of it you see that's that's how it goes across all all Industries all Hobbies I think I think the reality is of the situation is that nothing is of criticism I think that's healthy for the industry I think giving your true feedback is always going to be healthy if you want to see a Mech eat a ball yeah then yeah of course like voice that do whatever you want with it complain about it critique it analyze it that's perfectly fine you know I don't think everything needs to be sunshine and rainbows all the time I know that I I approach it a little bit different because obviously I do work in the industry but part of my job job is also to look at a pen and say okay what are the negatives of this product and how is that going to create a barrier for the enduser like what what is that going to prevent them from coming over so I'm definitely not blind to it I have to know about those things and I have to think about those things all the time but I think it comes in too that like you said it's it's awfully hard to come to a final decision on how a game is until you experience it the same way I just talked about Looney Tunes earlier I didn't finish watching the video why because the sounds were bugging me like that's just the fact but I did say hey the design looks great I want to play it still like before I make any type of final judgment on it and that's just yeah that's just reality I think it just comes down to just First Impressions and everybody is well in their way to have First Impressions I think it's just it comes down to just there's a lot of egos in this industry a lot and that doesn't you know it could be on this side of it the creators and everybody that's makes the pinball machines and makes the content and does all that and that could be the people that are just commenting on Facebook and pinside everybody has an ego so a lot of times yeah it's it's one of those things like make the make the funny bash post that you can to get a like or a comment like that you know that that's just part of it but I agree it seems to be going a weird Direction this past year like a very very weird direction to where if something's not 100% exact it's like the whole thing just goes to [ __ ] I just think I don't know what it is as a Creator all three of us create media in this and we all and it doesn't matter like luckily there are people that enjoy what we do and it's awesome to hear whether it's an email Facebook message somebody talks to you in person like hey I really enjoy X Y and Z and positive feedback is awesome it's great but it's the negative comments that are the ones that stand out and it's the negative ones that that that that hurt in my opinion where it's just like okay and and that's where I feel bad where it's like Josh comes out like is it hurting you or are you talking about just hurt like the industry overall no I I think if it's about content that I've made yes it hurts me but what I'm saying is if I was part of the Jaws design team and you open up pinside and you open up the the hype thread or whatever and you've had just page after page after page of negativity it's just one of the like I just feel bad for them because it's like none of these people have actually touched the game yet they hav't played iten it I wouldn't worry too much Joel I mean when you get into this industry for the most part if you've been around for a while you have thick skin y you know what to expect you know I I just well you you mentioned what's her name Elizabeth uh she this is her this is her first game you know and I know she's pumped about the code and the modes that they've put into jaws and I Can Only Imagine her reading some of these comments on Facebook or whatever and just be like can can can we just pause for a month until you guys play it please please think of it this way right we have people all the time call us three idiots well maybe not Tom but Joel you and I definitely yeah and that's perfectly fine they're right they're right having that opinion is perfectly fine we've heard from people that said we can't listen to your podcast because of XYZ like and that's perfectly fine does that mean that we go daily like worrying about that no you know what I mean so I think with work it's kind of the same thing well you know it's just because at the end of the day yeah everybody's passionate about pinball but it's also work and you're always going to have if you're out there in the public eye you're always going to have critique on you maybe always maybe my thought though is if there was if we had we don't but if there was a for if there was a forum page on pinside and you have people post about how much they love triple drink but then you have just the same amount of people also posting why they don't like triple drain and why they don't listen to trip though maybe we do and I'm just not reading it but those are the things where I'm like if if there are people excited about this game why can't we let them be excited because there's so many people that want to tell tell the world why they're not excited and they want to tell the world why they're not buying the game and I just don't get those like I just don't see the value in that I don't yeah I don't think anybody doing the critique content though is really stopping people from enjoying it necessarily you know what like I see where you're coming from has had fun in years okay years because I know you could tell cuz he blows up every game and he just looks miserable just like Carl they're just they're having so much fun like at indisk right yeah so that's yeah we do I I TimeWise we the time Joel we're going deep we don't need to talk tournament pinball I want to talk about your feelings Joel um man this where everybody turns off our our podcast anyways anyways yes yeah right so we don't have to do we could just tell them we're talking about tournaments and we still talk about feelings right now we've gone an hour and a half and it's it really hasn't it's been a be teddy bear feeling right now like you just you because it's the same way it's like us okay like I'll go real for you guys for a second the same way us like we obviously play up that we can't like stand each other we give each other [ __ ] and all that and people for a while what I write in the script remember oh yeah yeah for sure and people took it as like absolute truth like oh my gosh do you guys not like you know what I mean so it's like it's one of those things that you just realize you're in this industry because you genuinely enjoy it is there bad days yeah of course there is of course there is but at the same time it's like in this industry it is full of people that that are creators it's full of people that are creative whether that's sound whether that's software whether that's design whether that's content creation right MH and people want to fulfill that part of them they want to get the content out they want to get the creativity out and for me personally like I can't speak for you guys or anybody else but for me personally I think it's awesome like if somebody wants to like [ __ ] on everything I do good on you perfectly fine like it doesn't bother me one that's why you married Monica right right exactly I hear it every day I have twin daughters I he all the time hey Daddy remember when you when you remember when you told Toy Story yeah exactly right so point being it's like I think everybody in this industry for the most part there might be some people that are a little sensitive but you can't be we can't we can't do this and put our ugly mugs except for you Tom freaking Beauty you are but we canot not put our ugly mugs on YouTube without expecting some sort of backlash some sort of critique like oh look at these nerds or all these people don't don't know what they're doing you know that's that's part of it that's fa Fair it's a good thing though I I think it's healthy for people to disagree and if somebody wants to just bash on everything and that's what they get their rocks off on and that's like the type of content they want to do or what they want to do on message boards all the time and that's how they fill their time you know go for it that's that's part of it but that shark is not eating that damn ball okay so I think we our list was pretty short but we do have some tournament talk I I haven't left you a ton of time I feel bad about it yeah thanks so Tom tournaments we finally get talk about go ahead I'm gonna let the two of you guys start uh inis all the little bit I'll say is I I loved what I was watching I was so I feel so bad that Carl felt sick and he wasn't able to do what he did but honestly you I say this in the best way possible you didn't know because his production and the way that he designed that uh it sounds like Jordan Becca was with flipr tronic and I think is it was sunny was the third but there was somebody else that stepped in there were like three people Pluto there go Pluto Ste from twitch yeah no Pluto who is a big reason why the stream gets on the front page of twitch as well okay so those three people stepped in and congrat adds to them because Carl not only had it all set up and and dialed in but then the three people Managed IT like you wouldn't know you wouldn't know that Carl wasn't running in the background so I would say from an execution standpoint it was incredibly enjoyable to watch but that's me as a viewer the two of you participants indisk go uh we were there we did participate yeah indisk is difficult yes that's our report man you guys you try well let us talk Joel Jesus I want you to yeah no just just that is probably the one of the hardest tournaments out there I mean you have to be so good and consistent over your ticket uh it's very difficult I I for one could not do it I think I finished 89th out of 300 plus people uh Travis Travis did it my son Neil did it but uh it just it just goes to show you that there's some really good elite players out there that can can really uh do those things and uh it's an amazing tournament um there's so many volunteers and and people involved that just make that tournament happen it's just it's just one of the best ones honestly yeah I I I can I assume that or I see that from afar but you guys are there and just judging by the amount of people that come out every year um and the quality and the skill level of the people that are willing to play I think it says a lot about that tournament that it's kind of a must or well the location they have it at too it's a pretty cool location at a big Convention Center out at Riverside California and plus like right there there's plenty of hotels within walking distance there's the food lab and game lab plenty of things to go do plenty of restaurants and everything so the location is great and yeah it's the obviously the tournament's growing it wouldn't shock me one bit if they have 400 people next year because one of the things about this year the cues got super long and when we say cues we mean basically saying I'm going to play this game and you're just waiting in line for everybody else to finish playing it before you go up and that makes it even more difficult because you got to put in five decent games but you're going to wait 20 minutes clear up past an hour between each game so you're constantly yeah and you're having to switch eras and everything so yeah it's very difficult to play in but overall I mean I don't want to give away who won since you can still go back and watch the streams and all that in case somebody's wanting to watch but congratulations Travis it was you did a really new world champion thank you and I scored more than zero points this time on all my games this year Bo but no it's it's a fantastic time and yeah we'll we can definitely go back and talk about who won and kind of how that all went down at another time but yeah for sure indis is great and then they just announced uh while we were gone penberg is coming back as well that's GNA be a little bit different now key word little right is yeah a tad bit different but no so that's coming back and I know more details will come out about that pretty soon but yeah overall indisk very difficult to qualify for I've after playing in an IFA over in Germany which is a world championship with the top 80 players in the world I can honestly say I think it's more difficult to qualify an indisk than it is at IA wow it's a difficult tournament but I still encourage people to come out I mean test it out if you never have really traveled much for tournaments and you are going to travel for one it's a fun one to come to because the games play great everybody from the pinball Community is out there you'll meet a lot of cool people and you'll get to see how good you really are because you're playing against most of the best players in the world out there yeah no it's awesome it's awesome I mean everybody everybody in the pinball Community is out there yeah one day if I I would love to prioritize the tournament player yeah all the tournament yes yes do you know do you know what void and re means so isn't it your card you have to is it five games so it's your cumulative place or your cumulative score over five games so if you're on game three and you suck then you say I'm done with this ticket you avoid it you pay for a new one and you start back at one and that's there was a lot of that going on yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah a plethora plethora is a great word uh Shout Out Three Amigos go watch that movie um it's a sweater yes love that movie have a plethora of patas man why do they not have a pinball machine for Three Amigos they could have the sombrero like eating the pinball awesome um okay so the other thing this is me the non-tournament guy trying to you know understand or stay on top of tournament news obviously inis was huge um but so Tom you said you came out 89th right 80 something so you got you got what like 840 Whoppers for that isn't that the no it was it was a lot actually made my card it was like 44 42 something like that so that's the thing I'm reading right or seeing is apparently the you so many Whoppers if you were at indisk you got you got all the Whoppers you get a lot of yeah you know it's funny because we've we've talked about the the ranking changes before that were coming in January which is the Whopper 6.0 whichh um the screw Tom graph Edition some of us felt targeted by that uh there were there were there were words of privilege used um the privilege has now changed the Privileges now changed the ones who are privileged are no longer privileged and the people that are going to these World Championships congrat congratulations you are now the privileged ones that is absolutely true 100% 100% no idea what we're no what I'm what I this tell me if I'm wrong but apparently the previous privileged were the people that lived near areas where they could go to huge tournaments all the time all the time that people that travel yeah okay yeah but now based off of what I'm seeing people are saying like if you can go to these huge huge World tournaments you even if you place low you're getting lots and lots of points so you kind of now you're kind of having to travel to Joel for 31st I got 150 points I don't put that in perspective for so to put that in perspective I've had I think four or five top four finishes in Stern pro circuit events and they were nowhere near that okay I think my my most points ever was like 200 30 something last year for the open whenever I got third so yeah it's a lot of points a whole lot the open is in when you did inis last year you got third overall right 200 something points this year you got what and you were 150 for what position for 31st 31st that like we're talking about a crash and burn 31st any idea what third got this year uh uh yeah I could look and see cuz our our good orange friend Luke n horniak got don't spoil don't spoil I know I just screwed it up 344 points 344 344 yeah so 100 more like 392 was first place I found this amusing um so like there were a lot of people who contacting me and were like oh I didn't go to indis so I fell like 40 spots I know somebody that actually didn't go to IND this they fell like 16 spots in the overall but they actually moved up four spots in the Pro by not playing it in this so it just seems like the whole ranking system right now is just like in this kind of like shark tornado yep it's like in jello and it's just like jiggling all over the place and it's hard to tell like I don't I don't even understand the ranking anymore and I've gotten to where I'm just like you know it's whatever I'm just going to go play in formats and tournaments I think look fun well I know um hottie our friend Hottie with Frisco pinball um he was pumped because now he's top a thousand but he went to indisk so he's yeah that was something he's a step ahead of you Joel but he didn't place I remember what he was saying is he's like I didn't he didn't place partic like he didn't qualify but though like he got a ton of offers as essentially just for being there and playing playing all right um so he got uh so he said uh yeah so he's like oh Mike this is Mike pinball you said a friend of his got 21 Whoppers and he placed 148 like that's oh you could you could take a 100 I think it was 1602 and you would get 20 or above which which in some like local tournaments you have to like out of like I don't know 30 40 people you'd have to win it to get like that many Whoppers but hey I is what it is I mean uh what is it if you uh send all complaints to Josh right that um he's ready to uh voice all of them well it's funny I'm looking I'm looking at the results I can tell some people didn't realize the rule that if you're ranked in the top 250 even if you void right you still count it still counts yeah yeah oh no yeah I just noticed that yeah our good buddy Mr Grant rest in peace efficiency yeah well is there anything else tournament talk we're we're nearing the end of the episode here anything else that I coming up next weekend so Tom and I are both going to win that you know that's the plan that's the plan I got a text from my wife we're recording this in the afternoon I got a text from My Wife and it says we need the basement which means she needs the kids to run around is what I mean and it's raining outs Joel you just don't want to talk about tournaments that's all it is yeah did you hear that before we start it guys I'm good for several hours I'm all good I see four we're at four we're good it would have been you know we could have had Tom we could had more time Tom I just got a call from Monica she um she says I got to get off the podcast now oh yeah she's cold and wants the furnace back on yeah apparently we need heat in the house and I got to go start shoveling snow Yeah but stay Joel we have to go Tom and I have to go we're not leaving because you have to go we're leaving we have the state championships are coming up and that's always an exciting uh it's always an exciting time in uh pinball competitive pinball I think because you get to see how everybody's doing in each state and everybody who wins gets to go to Nationals which is going to be at District 82 pinball again so are you both playing then are you in state I'm supposed to be playing in Oklahoma State yeah Oklahoma Okay Oklahoma supposed to be we'll see don't even worry about Joel it's fine he fixed his camera how did he last time it's a new year every time Tom we get in and Travis is like for whatever reason my audio is so loud and it's like he makes the same adjustment every time it's just Tom thanks for being a profession I need you to be more positive Joel no give a positive affirmation coming from you Joel or I'm going to start calling you pinside yeah oh man all right well let's uh we'll go ahead and plug it up tra Travis you can go first yeah I'm Travis from is my no it's off that's what we're saying it's off you guys are being serious okay one second all right Tom you plug geez all right I'm Tom graph from this podcast triple drain pinball podcast you can also find me streaming on Twitch and YouTube for Fox Cities Pinball uh and if you want to ever find those streams I always announce them on Facebook and Instagram perfect thank you Tom thanks for being here Travis plug away and I'm Travis with triple drain pinball podcast and also the pinball company you can find me on YouTube or on this very show which is on tpn excellent Network and then um yeah be sure and watch Twitch this weekend because there will be plenty of I guess uh tournaments right yeah State tournaments whenever this comes out I say this weekend like January 20th and 21st when it comes so if you never watched get on Twitch you'll find plenty of pinball over there wonderful thank you um thanks for uh turning off your furnace so we could record really appreciate that I should be thinking yeah I'm ready um and my name is Jo yes so obviously you can check out here the triple drain uh pinball podcast and then every Wednesday from 10: to midnight eastern time I stream um this upcoming Wednesday I'll be streaming this game don't say it this is just for the video people only I'll be streaming this game uh which Zack just dropped off it's a new game should be fun a new new to me not new to the world but um should be fun uh looking forward to streaming that and then hopefully we'll have Jaws by the end of the month uh so we'll be streaming that on The Flipping Out YouTube channel so friends oh yeah man flipping out with friends I'm just happy you were allowed to have that game in your house you know it's uh this why you're getting kicked out the use of painters tape yeah man had to throw some painters had to throw some painters tape on there but it's here it is here um yeah I got quite the eye roll when it when it came into the basement I could imagine's like she's like cover that up cover it up yeah good thing my boys are older yeah like always Tom you get the last words uh ball eating sharks aren't