Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. On episode 133 of The Pinball Show, it's nothing but venom, baby. as Dennis and I deep dive with you the different models of Venom. We discuss the creators who made this possible, pricing, sales, production, as well as loosely establish a new system for grading new games as we dive into the Venom art, shots and layout, mechs and toys, code rules, animation display, theme, and just a general overall assessment and analysis by myself and pinball sweetheart Dennis Creasel. About to learn something here on the Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. Choose your host. Change the game. Hey, what's going on, everybody? It's episode 133 of the Pinball Show. I'm here with Dennis Creasel. What? 133 already? I know. On a very special 133 of the Pinball Show. Dennis, what are we doing here? Well, we're going to do Venom. We are Venom. It's finally officially revealed. Yes. In the words of Venom, we can do whatever we want. Oh. I was just going to say, compared to our episode 132, we're a day late and $13,000 short, aren't we? Hmm. Well, you know what they say. There's always the pro model. We appreciate all of the continued support from the exclusive Pinball Show Club membership over at patreon.com slash the pinball show. Some of you are listening to this right at release of Venom. Others are listening to this at the beginning of the week. But regardless, thank you so much for tuning in and listening to Dennis and I's overview of the recently released term pinball Venom. Before deep diving into the different categories such as art, shots, layouts, mechs, toys, codes, rules, animation, display, before doing all that, we know that this is a cornerstone release. Thus, listener, there are three models, a pro, a premium, and a limited edition model. The limited edition model is limited to 1,000 units. Pricing did not change from the last cornerstone in Foo Fighters when that released in March. So that would be $6,999 for the pro. Oh, nice. $9,699 for the premium. You're good. And $12,999 for the limited edition. Nailed it. Thank you. And we know that the creative team behind this is lead designer Brian Eddy, who from Stern Pinball has done the Stranger Things game, as well as the Mandalorian Pinball Machine, and known most well for his design of Medieval Madness back in the 90s and Attack from Mars and my favorite 90s Ballywilliam game, The Shadow. Yep, and the two lead software engineers are Dwight Sullivan and Raymond Davidson, though I believe the programming team is actually at least four individuals. Oh, yeah, I'd assume so. This is the first time I believe Dwight and Raymond have worked together. Ooh! So Raymond Davidson made his name on, let's see, I'd say Led Zeppelin, Rush, and Foo Fighters are the main three that he's known for, and then Dwight Sullivan, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ghostbusters, Mandalorian, I would say are the three fairly recent well-known ones. Right now, Raymond is throwing all of his trophies from his trophy room of Avengers Infinity Quest. Trophy challenge! Well, he can put them in a suitcase and fly them over in one of his airport modes. Oh, wonderful. I think this is kind of a dream team because then we had art by, I think that if we took a poll from all the pinball enthusiasts in the industry right now, the hobby, they would say undoubtedly that Zombie Yeti, that is Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti), is the best artist in pinball and has been for since he came aboard on Ghostbusters. Yes, I think if you were to do a top 10 pinball artist straight down the middle video, you wouldn't have to rely on some sort of whimsical pinball gods as an excuse for the list. I think you could probably objectively say he would score at the number one slot. Whoa, of all time. Of all time, yes. I think so. Wow. Such a modern shill. It's what I do. Who was the artist on Gottlieb's Victory? Was that Polaroid? I think that would be. I think that's Nikon. Nikon. Wonderful. So, yeah, kind of a dream team here on Stern Pinball's Venom. What I do like about this announcement, it rolled out very well right in the morning, and Stern Pinball had given us all of the high-res pictures. They'd given us a feature matrix, even a rule sheet, like a 30-page rule sheet, which I appreciate, two videos to oversee, and was there anything else? There's a lot of stuff for people to consume themselves with Venom here. So the launch, I think, was pretty standard and gave everybody the information they needed to make an assessment as to what this game generally will be. So what do you want to start with, art? Yeah, I guess we can start with art. Yeah, I was going to say, leading into that, I did go ahead and look it up because I did not know. Victory was Constantino and Jeanine Mitchell. Oh, nice. Credited for the art package, yes. I still think my camera joke was funnier in a sort of late 80s SNL way. Is it safe to say that unlike some of Zombie Yeti's work in the past, art-wise, This premium LE sometimes kind of blur into one another. To me, these all three seem visually like different art pieces. I would agree in terms of the cabinet art. However, we do have the same trans lights for the Yelly and the premium, and the playfield art is identical across all three models. Technically, the playfield art on the premium LE is different. Really? Well, because the doppelganger swings out and he's got inserts under him, whereas on the pro they don't have that. So that area is actually a whole different visual of, I think it's Carnage and Venom. Okay, I did not notice that. Wow, it's a totally different art package. But other than that area, yes, everything else is. The apron's also different. Yes, apron is different. I didn't mention the apron being different. Which one did you like art-wise? Because we've got very typical to their releases. The pro model tries to encapsulate everything that is whatever theme they're working with. This is, I'm going to call it the Venomverse because it is not just Venom. He is the main character, but it incorporates Carnage. It incorporates all the different characters and baddies in Venom, as well as the iterations of the Hulk Venom and Captain America Venom. There's all different types of Venom. So I think the pro model looks at that with a mixture of colors. The premium, you get more reds, and you get more of that battle between Miles Morales and Carnage. I thought all of these are just symbiotes, but I'm not entirely sure. I'm not really squared away on my Venom lore. You would have phoned a friend on this hottie or something. I don't care. Who cares who it is? And then the LE is one side is Venom, the other side is Carnage. So it's a battle between those two. I would say that of the – like taken as a whole, I prefer the LE package. Oh, okay. That's my favorite. I suppose if I were to mix and match, I'd probably say the LE package but with the Pro Translite. So you like the Pro Translite? I like both Translites. I think they – it's just a different pose. It's just I think the – I don't know. It's a real close thing. Like it wouldn't – it doesn't bother me one way or the other on it. But I like the cab dichotomy much better on the LE. I like that contrast. Well, it's the only one that really has a dark side to it, that Venom side being in. And I like that because initially I thought, well, is this going to be a lot of blacks? I do like the decision to use dark blues. Absolutely. Because it gives it more pop, but without it becoming a rainbow fest. I completely agree. And if you're talking about, because I've heard some people try to make the argument, this isn't dark enough. Venom is a dark, dark character. It's a dark world in the comic series. I would argue that the comic colors of popping go best with pinball. They always have. I think they always will. And when it comes to Venom, especially, I know that he's a darker character, but he's no spawn or anything like that. So he still has action and comedy encapsulated with him. So just going black and white just doesn't cut it. I like that they used a lot of color here. Right. And Jeremy's palettes are actually, they're not too, I mean, I used the word Rainbow Fest earlier, which, of course, was designed to suggest using all of the colors, which he doesn't do. He usually does select a palette that, I always call it Marvel method because that's what I associate with it. So you'll see a lot of reds and oranges usually. And so I'm looking a bit for variety. I feel the premium is very much what I normally think of when I think of Jeremy's work for Stern. A lot of red, a lot of orange. And my least favorite is definitely that pro cabinet. Purple is like my least favorite color in pinball. I think it's because I saw too many people perp it up back in the old days with their RGB lights. I should just say their regular LED lights that were just purples. I was just like, guys, don't perp it up, guys. I think I just have residual trauma from that. So seeing this purple, even though it seems well-integrated, I mean, like it's real easy to see Venom and read his name on the sides of the cabinet. I see that purple, and I'm like, absolutely not my least favorite by a country mile. When I look at these, man, it sucks that I have to be biased. I want to be able to just tell people how I feel about this shit. Well, you're going to tell them how you feel no matter what. Yeah, and I dare you guys not to believe me, honestly. I don't. Whenever I read Pinside, I'm always going to read that this thing sucks and it's the ugliest thing ever. And people don't even know what the game they're talking about. They just insert negativity. I just like Zambietti work, so this all looks unbelievable to me. It all looks great to me. When given preference, I like the back glass of the premium and LE. Given what I like cabinet-wise, I see why you like the LE, the differentiation. I hate the dichotomy. between stuff. I don't like when they do that. It gives me the whole Transformers half purple, half red. That was one of the more fun cabinets. I don't like when they split things. I like things to be like a Star Wars premium. You guys have heard me say that. You've got Endor or Hoth or whatever the white snow is on one side and the space. I hate that. I like it all to be similar. Now I do like that it's different artwork on the LE on both sides. And I do love the foil that the LE has to offer. But give me – I love that premium. The side cabinet on that premium just does it for me. You get all the colors, but then you get the bright reds and oranges too from Carnage. There's no bad art here. I like all of them. Now, we were talking before the air. You weren't as hot on this art package from Yeti as you have been his previous work. Is that correct? Right. It's well done. I mean, come on. It's Jerry. He knows what he's doing. You can't argue like the – at least I don't feel. And again, I'm not an artist. I can't. My critique abilities are merely that of a layperson. So I'm not going to critique the composition and the choices he made. And I even get the play field where I imagine some people are going to be a little annoyed at the it feels congested. Oh, hell yeah, they're going to say it looks congested. But those shots are clearly, again, it's about shot communication. If all those shots are corresponding to like a carnage or a black suit Spider-Man, what better way to convey that than to make it clear which character is in the art? The art is very informational. So for me, information trumps all. So for me, that's good. But yeah, no, in terms of like the pantheon of zombie Yeti art packages, this is not top three. What about this versus Foo Fighters? You know, Foo Fighters, I don't love. But part of that is I like the theme does nothing for me on Foo Fighters. And I was actually surprised at like how well for when I heard it was a band pin. I really had very low expectations on the art. And I thought, in a way, Fu kind of felt like it looked a bit like a different style in some ways. Okay. But my favorite is still one where I feel Jeremy did a very different style, and that's Ghostbusters. Sure. I still think that he's never really, and maybe it's because he keeps doing all these Marvel properties, and they like the, you know, it's, I know it's not really fair to say Marvel method, but I feel like, even like Godzilla, I'm not in a way surprised that you like the premium package the best. because 50 feet away, this is going to look just like all the other zombie yeti art packages you have. Those colors, those reds and oranges, it's all going to kind of blend into this red-orange poppy explosion to you, and I think that's why you like it. But for me, I want to see different composition styling because I know he can do it, and I've already seen him do things like Avengers and Deadpool. I don't need the same sort of style. But again, when it's a Marvel character, I don't really expect it to be different. So it met my expectations. I just don't. It just doesn't work as well for me as some of the other packages that he's done. Yeah, I think for me it may be in my top three because I like this. I definitely like it more than Foo Fighters. I don't care if Dave Grohl is on my play. If give me Venom or Grohl. OK, please give me Venom. This looks better than Avengers to me. this looks this is like I would give this maybe an edge over Deadpool because for Deadpool I did not like that premium LA back glass on Deadpool whereas Venom I do When it comes to the Deadpool side art, I really liked the pro on Deadpool. And then I love the big red Deadpool on the play field. I love those large features just like the Venom down on the Star-Lord area, right big. I don't like the small character stuff. like the ride. What would your ranking be? Because I would say my ranking... Well, I'll tell you the list real quick if you want. Besides Venom, he's had in chronological order, Ghostbusters. If you want to count it, and I wouldn't, but if you want to, All-Star Baseball and the Zombie League Baseball. He did those if you want to count them. They're in the database. Iron Maiden, Deadpool, Primus, Turtles, Avengers, and Godzilla. So then also Foo and Venom from this year. So my ranking would be Ghostbusters number one, really any iteration. I love the art package on Ghostbusters. I think it looks really, really good. I would say my number two would actually be Iron Maiden Premium, the desert version thing going on there. I really like that. I don't care at all about Iron Maiden, but I love that art package. And then for me, I'd probably say Turtles, which is my third. Okay. Any version. We're not too far off there. And I will be the first to say that it is tough for me because I'm going to fall in love with themes that I like better. I'm going to go first place is Ghostbusters. I'm with you. Second, likely for me, would be Turtles. and then see then the next section for me is like Venom, Godzilla, Venom, Godzilla, and Deadpool are the next tier. And then All-Star Baseball didn't do much for me. It looks nice, but I don't rate it very high. Primus, I just don't give a shit. Foo Fighters looked pretty, but it's just not my theme at all. Yeah, I'd probably, looking back again at, I haven't looked enough at the Foo Fighters art because I was so uninterested in the theme, But I'd probably put Venom above Foo Fighters and maybe above Avengers. I didn't really care that much for the Avengers. Well, no, let me about the same as Avengers. I put it above Godzilla. Godzilla, I didn't like the decision to do the more postery style. You know, I wanted it to be a more muted color scheme, though. I talked about that back when that came out. So I just had different expectations. I mean, it's still, I think, pretty telling that we only put him in competition against himself. That's very much true. We always talk about whenever a game is released, it has to check so many boxes. All the boxes. Half the boxes. At least 25% of the boxes. You know me. I'm going to have this formal system at some point. I think the last time I roughly did it, it was like three out of five. And four out of five is a guaranteed hit. Three out of five will sell a lot of units. I see what you're saying, yeah. So how many boxes do you think this is? This is a box check. Art checks the box. The art is a box check. Okay. It's good. And when I check the box, I'm saying it is a standout selling feature. Check. What about the shots and layout of this game? Let's jump into Brian Eddy's. Oh, I thought that was the sound of a fan you turned on. No, that's the sound of my, I don't know if this box gets checked or not because I see it going both ways. Oh, what would check it for you? What would not? Well, go ahead and explain. Brian Eddy, so this is one of his designs. Does it look familiar to you? Yeah, it looks familiar because it looks like the most quintessential fan layout ever. Yes, I had thought about opening this episode, our glorious 133, which in no way has ever been interrupted while we've been recording it, and doing something like, I do declare, Mr. Minnie, you're sure hot down here in the South. Could you pass me my fan? I thought about that, but I wasn't sure if that really worked. I mean, I don't want to – I'm not trying to go viral here. I hope you have one of those little sun umbrellas. A twallet. Yeah, a little lace on the edges. A twallet with my dainty little gloves. That's how I picture Brian Eddy at this point. Brian, we need a shadow. Where's your third flipper? So anyone who's been hoping for that Brian Eddy is going to take a page out of his shadow layout and reuse elements, these are not the droids you're looking for. I'm not going to lie. There's nothing inspiring about this layout. I'll say it. I mean, and this is why I said, though, about your box check system. It's tough for me because if you want to talk about the most vanilla layout, it's got to be the fan. And this, I mean, we've talked about how the prototypical or quintessential, however we want to define it, versions of fan layouts have often been two of his greatest games, Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars. But in some ways, this looks even more fan-ish because there's not a huge – I mean, the fan is the fan. It's not a castle in a UFO. But all the notable shots are towards the back. I mean, all of them are. You don't have a big mech taking up a bunch of space there, like you had the drop bank on Attack or, of course, the castle on Medieval. It's just yet more shows like Little Bell Tower. Or the ramp and projector screen on Stranger Things. Yeah, or Stranger Things, which, again, was a fan layout, but you had some stuff where – I don't want to say it was broken up, too. I mean, those were very, very clearly fans. But it's just like – this was just like where there might have been toys, The toys or the ramp, everything is like the width of a ramp shot, including the toys. Everything is like exactly the same size is what it looks like from the overhead shot. When I first looked at this, Dennis, it for some reason reminded me of Steve Ritchie's Game of Thrones Pro. I could see that. I could see that. The difference is, and we talked about this before we went on the air, even the Pro still had that, what was it, the catapult battering ram or something? There's that one toy that's near the flippers, near-ish, the flippers. I wouldn't argue that it somehow isn't a fan because of that, but it provides a degree of danger because when there's a target that close, it's in your face. This is not. We talked a lot about, well, not us, but I've heard the community talk a lot about how Foo Fighters is part of the reason why people love it so much. is a fairly long player. Same argument for Godzilla. This looks like it's going to be a long player. I don't know about that. Well, it will. Because it's going to be fast. And that's some of the things where it's not just looks. The looks alone don't tell us everything, because there is stuff about how the rules are going to work with ball state, like there's some ball lock, ball stagey stuff that's supposed to be designed to keep the speed up. This is like a main level, no fear type of fan. but here's a separate from that even separate from that which i do think is an interesting concept i i definitely need to see gameplay to better understand it but i wonder is this a is the layout a not a box check or is it a box check because when it comes to people in general they love shooting fan layouts that's all the like lord of the rings is a fan layout medieval attack like top games are often fan layouts and so approachable games oftentimes sure high so and so correct so i'm wondering i mean fast and flowy like no other when i think like long-term pinball people are probably going to and i'm going to stereotype and i'm going to because we're on a podcast i gotta speak with some generalizations um i i do think a lot of long-time collectors are probably going to look at this layout and feel like it's just really really familiar and they're not going of like that but newer players might look at this and go you know what i really like that this doesn't have you look at this and you don't see brutality no you do not see brutality you see speed and what here's what i'm going to say listener here's the good news uh whether or not you like fan layouts you know that it goes down historically as probably one of the most common layout types in modern pinball it just is what it is the good news is that this will shoot better than Stranger Things, and it will shoot twice as good as The Mandalorian. And that's just geometry. But The Mandalorian's not a fan at all, though. Oh, we're going to do this? No, we're not. We're going to do this? You can definitely say this would shoot better. Because of the upper play field? Yeah, upper playfields completely disqualify that criteria. We've had this conversation. What about No Fear? i know some people are i would say no fear no fear is not a fan layout because that upper play field is not a fan that's true that's true i know i know plenty of people who would say it's the exception that proves the rule i don't i don't agree with exceptions like that what i'm saying is that when it comes to mandalorian shot geometry is mid play field for a lot of those shots which yes which initiates what people call a clunky feel this is like you said shots more towards the back. You put shots towards the back, you're going to get much better feel because the velocity of the ball is not as high when it goes to hit mechanisms or ramps or drop targets or whatever it may be. Sure. It's also a relatively high flow game. I mean, again, looking at it on paper or on picture, I should say, the two shots that look to be non-flow are the captive ball, carnage shot, and then that bell tower. Yep. This will be Brian Eddy's best shooting stern game, and I don't think that's going to be close. So that's good. It's going to feel good because it is very much a fan layout. I think it may be a little tougher than people think because of how many shots are in this fan. We're looking at, what, nine shots? They are somewhat tight. This is not exactly your Lord of the Ring fan layout. Yeah, and he's utilizing a lot of posts instead of stand-up targets. So while you don't get that flyback that you would on the left side of the play field because of the posts, You may get a little Alice Cooper-y where it feels like you're just dinking and dunking a lot of things. So that may be into consideration, too. Tight but findable, question mark? Maybe Houdini-ish. Maybe. You don't have much to the left and right going east and west, like Lawler likes to put you in danger of. But you're very much fan. You're very much back into the play field. So it's going to shoot well. It's going to be very approachable to shoot. So that's the good thing. Whenever I've seen a fan layout and saying that it was pretty much uninspired, that would make me not want to check the box. However, I do like that he pushed the shots back. Thank you, Brian, because Mandalorian, that's tough. That game is tough to feel good. But he couldn't push those back because of the play field, the upper. Grogu didn't need a magnet with inlays like that. Grogu, he just needed a magical wavy arm thingy, and he didn't even have that. Until you got a 22-page mod to make it so. Here's what may help check the box. The designer themselves, listener, is responsible for geometry, but damn it, they're also responsible for engineering mechanisms. Whether it's a team approach or not, their lead designer, they're deciding that kind of stuff. And, you know, people say, where are the toys in games nowadays like they were in the 90s? And then you hear other people, shots are the new toys and stuff like that. I think this has gone further, and here Brian Eddy is again pushing the envelope for mechanisms. We have mechanisms again like we did in Stranger Things that are novel. They're interesting. Multiple mechanisms, too. You have a captive ball with a setting system to the left in Carnage, and we'll jump into kind of shots, layout, mechs, and toys. It all goes hand in hand here, Dennis, but the Carnage thing is pretty cool. I like this four-stage rotating thing. It makes four different shots to the right. You've got a ramp flap. You've got it going straight. You've got it going up like a jump ramp kind of thing. It can go all the way into a U. It can also go into a saucer to do a Spider-Man up kick, Vuk up kick to the wire form. Then you've got middle of play field, how it can go up into a bashing target. It can go into a 180 ramp. It can go into, what was the other thing, a scoop. So there's multiple mechanisms that are very, very intriguing in this game. When I first saw the pictures, though, I didn't see a big-ass Venom head with a tongue sticking out. So I'm like, where's everything at? What the hell? This just looks like a bear fan layout. But upon further inspection, there's a lot going on in this game. Not to mention what I'm probably most excited about, the left-to-right staging locking ball systems that aren't just physical ball locks. They're user-controlled, and going left and locking in certain spots is going to initiate certain parts of the rules and code versus the right one. That's going to be other, I think, multipliers, other modes and villains. I like that physical locking system there. What do you think about the mechs integrated into the shots? Because there are a lot of shots in this game because of the mech use. Yes, I thought it was a real interesting way to take already what I felt were a lot of entryway shots because of the decision basically to commit hardcore to the fan and not make these very wide shots and then to add even more variety to it. So there are a lot of potential pathings that are available. Whether or not it's going to be fun, I'm not yet sure of. I like the Carnage very target thing going on there. Just because that's not a mech we see too much of, though. The Captive Ball there, I'm hoping that works well. Sorry, I still have Buck Rogers flashbacks where that Captive Ball ruins the very target. And I own that game, so I know how bad it is. You mentioned the 180 Ramp Shot. Now, I think that's only premium LE, isn't it? Yes, the Pro doesn't have any of those. It's just a U-shot. You lose a lot in that pro. Right. You do. And that one of the things where I think that might be tough for a few people We seen that more and more it seems lately But I guess the pro people they do get the staging ball locks And that is something I really curious about because that where I wondering if given when those are going to release or whatnot, if that's going to give you that more fast feel going on. Oh, and it throws them, too. It doesn't just let them. It chucks them. So that's the part where I'm thinking, you know, this looks like a pretty forgiving layout in terms of a lot of reaction time because all the shots are towards the back. But if you're constantly having to deal with rapidly deployed in-lane balls, that could be really interesting. So that's the part that probably excites me the most. I do like the cleverness of the 180 and three different shot positions. I'm starting to wonder. I'll just throw this out here. I think you'll disagree with me, and that's fine. Maybe most of the listeners will, too. Have we jumped the shark yet on the 180 ramp? Because it feels like they're using it all the time now just to save space. You know what? Preach, I'm tired of the 180 ramp. I've said it on episodes before. I'm just sick and tired of a 180 ramp. Plus, most times they feel clunky anyway. John Borg has perfected one on Munsters. I'm trying to think if there's another 180 that really feels regular ramp worthy. The Munsters one is the only one that comes to mind. Yeah, Munsters was the other one that came to mind. This far back left one I'm sure will be fine because it mimics more of a standard ramp. but that little half quarter turn even like Jurassic Park that little I don't like that it doesn't feel good I want ramps to feel good and 180 ramps I'm just kind of over like the Mandalorian 180 on the premium it does nothing I'm with you I'm starting to feel like they're doing it not because it's cool but because the footprint is so small it takes up less space than everything else I want ramps to go through the backboard I like that Yeah, I... Anyway. Okay. I wasn't enamored with that, especially looking at the photos of the Venom 180 ramp position. So where does it feed? Does it just shoot back onto the play field when it's not in position one? I'm talking about the one to the right of the bell tower. That can do a 180 ramp. I believe it can do a scoop, and then it can also just let it open for a U, kind of like the Pro does. Oh, okay. I was focused on the top. I wasn't even looking. Okay. All of a sudden, I'm like, all it's doing... I'm like, Zach, all it's doing is making the ball fly up over the ramp, and I'm trying to figure out why we would want that to happen. It has been a long day. I should have caught that from the photos alone. I love those spot weld spots on it, too. No, that's pretty. So, yeah, that's a U. How they're doing it makes sense. So, yeah, I mean, it's an excellent use of space. Sure. I'm just – I do like the fact that when people say, Brian, we want third flipper, he can come back and say objectively there are more shot variations in this two-flipper design than most every single third-flipper design game ever created, objectively. Because you're going to get two or three extra shots in the third-flipper game, usually. This right here, one, two, three, four, five, you get five extra shots just with those two mechs on the premium LA. On the pro, no. I'm with you. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. That's a nine-shot basic fan layout. But, yeah. No, but I don't disagree with you. It's, I mean, yeah, third flipper at most that I can recall ever seeing is three shots out of one. It's usually one man to one. A lot of times it's one to two. But, yeah, usually there's like one, like you're thinking like warp ramp and then one clunk. Like, oh, yeah, hit these targets to restore your ball save or something. If you want to try to break your ramp on Star Trek and try to use that third flipper to hit the left ramp, you're like, oh. Is that the beta alpha ramp? Yeah, that poor little – yeah, I've hit that ramp a lot. Can we talk about this bell tower? They're promoting it as having a real bell in it because when I see a stand-up target, Dennis, I'm going to be honest. I'm like, who gives a shit? Now, what they did in ACDC with that bell, that's a phenomenal feeling. Yeah, the ACDC bell is awesome. It's one of my favorite toys that Stern's ever done. Yes, I agree. But this, like, the size of that bell cannot emit a sound that's nothing more than... Let me use my little can tap here. Yes, yes. I'm looking forward to it. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah, so I don't know if it's like you're opening a door of a convenience store or what. Maybe Jerry's enhanced it so it ends up sounding really good. Yeah, if it has some feedback and a shaker and like an audio boom, then okay. But I mean, you know what? If they're saying you get this working bell or you just get a stand-up target, which one you want, all right. Again, small footprint. They're actually putting a Macatoy something to do there. I mean, I like the look of the tower, how clean it is, how they went ahead and put it together, given how small it is. Yeah, I do too. I like the working gate. When you capture carnage, it kind of closes the gate thing. There's a lot of moving elements on this game that I think people are not realizing because our expectations were. We always expect big moldings or one central toy like a medieval madness castle. But I think it's got a lot in it. Also, and I think Brian's kind of fond of this, it seems, kind of hiding his pop bumpers. Got a couple hidden in the back. Yeah, there's two pop bumpers back there. I don't know what they'll do. It's going to be a safe exit. It is. It is. And so that's where I'm kind of like maybe not put those in, Zach, and then give us a sculpt. Sure. I think Dwight Sullivan demands pop bumpers for his mystery matches. Oh, right. I did have one of the Kansas City people did say when I told them who was on rules, they did say, okay, so we're going to have the lotto pops. I'm a fan of lotto pops. I won't say anything. They were not. The other clever thing design-wise that people don't do enough, thank you, Brian, for doing it, there's a sneaky shot there. I don't know if you can see it, but I don't know if it's on the Pro, but I know it's on the Premium. It's almost like a subway pole gobble thing. Oh, I have seen it in some of the other photos, right. I think, yeah. They even call it like a sneaky. The sneaky hideout? Okay, yeah. See, I love that. I love that plunge. And it looks like it's got a Vuck under it. See, that's fantastic. I love that kind of stuff. Aerosmith had that. It makes a skill shot so much fun. It's truly skill. It's not hold left, flip or plunge all the way and fast. No. Right, right, right. It is truly a skill shot. And it's not soft plunge, catch it on the flipper and then shoot a ramp. So when it comes to checking the boxes of layout, I'm going to say no. It doesn't get that box check. But when it comes to toys and mechs, surprisingly, now it all could change based on when you're playing. Maybe a mech doesn't do what you want it to. But surprisingly, I'm going to definitely checkmark all of the different mechs and shop variations because of mechs and toys going on in this game. Absolutely. Do you think a lot of potential buyers, when they look, though, that they see it? Because, again, sculpts, they see. And that is why we're getting the response we do. Like, it's like clockwork. You can judge whether or not a game is going to be loved initially, loved later. And one of the things is a big moldable, big identifiable bash toy, something big right there. This does not have that. So it may take playing for people to get that. Now, this isn't part of a toys or mechs, but I do have to give a shout out to the LE package here. Because we do get a beautiful trimmed. It's like a metallic dark blue powder coat on this LE, which I've been wanting blue for a while. The Stern has not done blue for a while for the LE. This is why I'm excited to get an LE. Now, keep in mind, I haven't kept a Stern LE for a couple releases now. I'm excited to unbox an LE. I know it's Dwight, so the code is usually what I like. but that trim package and can we not say thank you to stern pinball for putting have they ever put mirror blades in a game these look i think they're me i i can't remember these are like and mirror blades it looks phenomenal looks so good instead of just your art blades you've got art blades over a mirror blade looks it looks fantastic and then all the other standard accoutrement like the uh the shaker motors the mirrored back glass that kind of stuff but the art blades and the powder coat are what really sealed the deal for me personally for le here okay and we forgot the oh my god dennis we forgot one of the biggest toys and mechs in the whole game that differentiates the premium le from the pro dangly guy the dangly ganger yeah um dangle gang gosh yeah hanging targets um what is up with Brian Eddy and his his his uh what do they call that in the back of your throat the uh you you've uvula you you brought this up like two a couple episodes ago and i i don't remember but yeah the hanging targets i you know Labelia? What is that? I don't know if people are going to like it. I like how it flips out. It looks cool. It's very Zachariah pinball. That Italian manufacturer is who I think of when I think of hanging targets. Historically, I don't have hands-on experience with them. I think there have been complaints about how well they hold up. Obviously, these are not the same as what were done in the 80s. This is the razor crest, man. I just – I don't know how satisfying they are to play with. So I'm very curious. I want to try them out because it's interesting to me, but I just don't know. I just don't know if that's going to – It reminded me of Dracula on Monster Bash, how he comes out. Whoa! It's like same spot. Yeah, yeah. It's just – and the little sculpt of him is so adorable. Yeah, you got to get him. I like his little spited butt. Yeah, he's just like – I'm just – I'm trying here, guys. I'm trying. But you know, I can guarantee you, all the pro buyers are going to be hitting me up. Hey, can we order that little figure? Everybody's going to love that doppelganger figure because it's pretty cool with all those little arms like a spider. But, yeah, him coming out and then you hitting him, I like that there's dedicated inserts under that. So it shows progress. Yes, I do like that. It's a good touch. That's really cool. And I would bet, I would venture to say, let me look at the overhead here. Yep. Wonderful design, very nicely done design team for lining up those targets to also play through the shots on the fan. Those three shots of those dangle targets, they lead to three of the main shots on the game. So that's nicely done. I'm intrigued by that thing. Yeah, no, I want to try that. It looks – I'm actually – I think as neat as changing the shot returns and stuff is, I think visually I'm more curious about the hanging targets. I think that will be more noticeable. What I think will – it's a make or break – will be the weight because he's setting them up like a pendulum type of thing, and I don't think it will have the weight that I would like to have seen on the ends of those things like a crane captive ball type. I see what you mean. Like the Razor Crest didn't really have, you didn't feel that weight like you do the bell on ACDC. So I don't know if it's going to be as pleasing as it could have been there. Well, it does look like from the image there may be a little bit of distance underneath them that we could hang our own little bells on the ends of them. Or add some weights there? Or put the bells right behind them. I just want to hear more bells. Oh, we should have more bells. The ringing of the dingles. See, this is surprisingly pretty packed. Rules. Okay. Now, this is where I get those tingly spider sense feelings. It's Dwight Sullivan, so I'm already kind of intrigued. But if you read through, and there's no way that we can even go through the rule sheet on this. because we'll bore everybody. But the rule sheet is 30-something pages. And I think not only is it for me, Dennis, not only is this a checkmark on this criteria that we've set forth, but it is easily, maybe even more so than are easily, like this thing bleeds through with this checkmark four or five pages under it. Like they're going for something here code-wise and rules-wise that I don't think has ever been done in pinball. I think that Dwight and the team are aiming for something totally different. How that ends up working out, I don't know, but that is exciting as hell for me. There's so many different out-of-the-box type of thinking for this rule set. It reminds me of a video game, Very much an old shoot-em-up RPG kind of systems, Mortal Kombat kind of thing. Almost like the Maximum Carnage, whatever that game was back in the 90s. Oh, that's interesting. A lot of different paths that you can take. This isn't a here's your modes, here's your three main multiballs, here's your wizard mode. this breaks through any of that thinking and like a spider web weaves in and out of different ways to do all types of things I'm extremely excited about this now it could be like Dwight's done stuff in the past where he has taken big swings big risks you know the foundry system I think worked whereas Game of Thrones didn't work for me as much so this could fall flat on his face for me as a user But damn, I love that these risks of trying to evolve an entire industry with one game rule set. That is so cool. I do think the rules are the most interesting part of the entire release And so it will be interesting to see how well it resonates with the with the playing public i would simplify my description of it to being i i think it basically teenage ninja turtles plus mandalorian plus one but that plus one is big it's not it's not that's not to be linear math what do i mean by the plus one is it seems like and this was more in turtles than mandalorian but the gathering of the xp and stuff kind of like how you could level the turtles but But at this point, the next step is an element that I would actually compare more to the roguelike genre of games. So we're talking things like Hades is one I talk about a lot. But Binding of Isaac is perhaps one of the most famous ones. Rogue is, of course, one of the – Rogue is the original, which is why there are roguelikes. But because it seems like, again, you can choose your house or choose your turtle. You choose your symbiote. But as you go along, if I'm understanding the idea behind this, besides the changes about what's going on with the play field shots and stuff, some of those things you touched on, there's also this idea that you're building these up, you're leveling up these characters. And then when you go into the battle modes in the game, because you've built up your character through Insider Connect, it's remembering your progress. You become more and more powerful, which is very much a roguelike principle. You play a roguelike, you die. There are certain carryover things that then allow you to be better at the game. Both you're learning, you're getting better based off of skill, but you're also getting better abilities in the software. So you're actually able to win the game, unlock you another host, and then you can keep going. And so that's, to me, the plus one. True roguelike in-depth progression in pinball. Something that we've seen a little bit of that, I think, flirted with on the P3 platform. We've seen hints of it from Stern with things like Turtles and the training progress. But to actually allow that progress to simplify in a notable way your ability to, quote-unquote, beat the game, my guess – and we don't know how it will land. For homeowners and home progression, I think this very much could be a direction that the company decides to go in because that's where you have recurring replayability. and it doesn't matter that you're not necessarily becoming a Ray Day yourself as a pinball player. Your character strength is going to allow you to see more and more of the game if you just stick with it. Yeah, and keep achieving. That, I think, is very powerful, very powerful to people because the biggest frustration people get is like if you play – let's say you got Stern Star Trek. We're not getting to five-year missions, Zach. No, no, we're not. We're never going to, no. But if Kirk could level up, maybe – And so then I don't have to make like 12 shots to get through level three Nero. I could make two shots. I mean, that's so interesting. So to me, that leveling, it is. Again, I've seen, I think Stern's flirted with it before, and I've seen a few others try and do or play around in these realms, the idea of saved progress and stuff. but to actually implement it in a major release, far and away the most exciting thing about this game, the only thing is, one, will it resonate with homeowners? I think it has a decent chance. And then the other aspect, of course, is how does that correspond with the enjoyment of the people that are trying to route the games and operate them where, like, again, in tournaments and stuff, that stuff's got to be turned off, which is okay. I think that's okay. As long as the rules are balanced, turning it off in theory shouldn't upset tournament people. I don't know how it impacts casual location play. That's really the area that I'm curious about as well. Anyway, I think this is a very exciting decision. I actually really like the decision. I know a lot of people who play competitively, they tend to favor certain other coders' rules. That's more – and having Raymond on code is probably comforting to them. but Dwight has clearly been flirting with the idea of progression basis and experience points for a long time, and I think it's a logical realm given how much of this hobby is homeowner at this stage. I think it's the right path to go down. I think it's a very exciting and interesting path. I couldn't have stated it better than you there, Dennis, but also knowing that he will take those risks and those wild swings. He himself has developed, as Dwight Sullivan has developed, complex board gaming systems as well. So that's where his heart is. That's where his vision is. But then when you combo him up or, you know what, theme-wise here, I think it's appropriate, when you team up with Ray Day, who is arguably one of the greatest pinball players of all time, for that balance and competitive skill-based details, that's where this whole project is going to balance itself out very well. And I don't even, because they're taking swings like this, I don't anticipate it being perfected in this title. But if it moves us steps ahead in what pinball could become with this Fennum title, then I am all for it. And we didn't even touch on that. There's team-ups in here. Those team-ups are based on whoever you pick initially. Let's not forget, listeners, this might be the most dynamic selling point of any pinball machine ever. when you choose your character it changes physical elements of the pinball machine it changes shots because of who you picked whether it's peter parker whether it's eddie brock gwen stacy yeah yeah or flash thompson it will change the play field for that ball and you get to pick between each ball the different characters or the different hosts that you want and then throughout progress of the game you get to even play a venomized host there are three different Venomized characters that can be, I love this word, unlocked. That tells us a lot of stuff, too. And those unlocked characters are Venomized Hulk, Venomized Wolverine, Venomized Captain America. Another unlocking system, level system. This may be the most well-integrated, insider-connected game in existence until the next one. Yeah, and the unlocking isn't a paid DLC thing. that's for beating the final boss in the game. So it's progression-based, is at least the current outline. So, yeah, and in a way, when I read about these rules, I really wondered when Brian Eddy was working on this layout, how closely was he working with the coding team? Because it seems like the decision to maybe issue the idea of having, you know, like a major Venom head with a tonguey sticking out and instead cramming in so many shots and having the play field changing that it was all part of the strategy to implement this style of rule set. The idea that, hey, the symbiotes can move. They shift and form. What if the play field shifts and forms? And how can the rules lend service to that layout? It seems very much like the layout is actually enthralled to the rule set in this case. I wouldn't be surprised if the outline of the rules predated the layout. I'm curious if that's true or not. Maybe I'm wrong. Behind the scenes, I do know, a little bit insider info, I do know that when it comes to Brian Eddy, he is very open to collaboration with the coding team and the rest of the design team. He has been known for that. He will allow people to come in and take some leads on even some of his design elements. He's so super open to that. And I think that probably stems back from he himself coming from a programming background. We forget, like, Black Rose, he was a coder. Yeah, he was a software engineer before he was a game designer. Indiana Jones. I think that was a Brian Eddy. He has a video game mindset. He would understand what Dwight was shooting for. He came from video games, but when he came back to start, he came from video games. They storm-stole him from the video game industry. So we could geek out. There's so many different cool ways. There's multiple wizard modes. There's multiple mini wizard modes. There's all kinds of stuff. I'm not even going to get into it. but we can't move on from code and rules without mentioning the return of a video mode. Oh, no. Dwight, you know how I feel about your Star Wars video mode. Not a fan. You don't like the asteroids? I don't. Nope. I actually like the asteroids okay. I never figured out the Game of Thrones one where you were dueling with the swords, though. Yeah, that one. me and Dwight, every time we're hanging out or get together at a pinball event, we end up always at some point arguing loudly at one another about that video mode in Star Wars. I actually like the... It's not my favorite. My favorite remains the wolves in Bram Stoker's Dracula. Oh, that one's great. I like the shadow. I like the asteroids okay. I thought it was intuitive. Take a hit from Brian Eddy. Give me the shadow with the purpose where you're going left and right. Got to get the extra ball. Don't get hit by the... Yeah, I like that stuff. so this is a video mode based on scream you guys if you're if you're buying this game it's probably because you are super stoked about this code and rule set because it looks and seems insane looks nuts okay are we missing anything no i think what about the animation display even that the little a couple days ago they had the animation display everybody's like no not Avenger still motion? And then they're like, nope, look what Stern has evolved into. This is beautiful artwork that is animated. So it looks phenomenal. It's almost, it's not quite that 16-bit, but it's along those lines. Maybe like a, what does Sega Genesis make, like a 32X? Oh, I see what you're saying. Still platformy? Yeah. 2D? Yeah, initial reaction that I saw on it was pretty positive from people. People loved that. Yeah, visually they did love that, and I think it looks phenomenal as well. So for me, code and rules, we bled through four or five pages with our Sharpie on that checkmark, and animation thus far gets a big old giant checkmark. All around, this game is looking stunning to me. At first glance, I was very hesitant. Now I'm getting more and more excited, especially with the thought of myself opening up a Venom LE for my own collection. But I've went on Pinside a little bit today because order days, launch days are so hectic for me. But I breezed through that, breezed through the Discord real quick. There is some strong opposition to this game thus far. What are the big critiques, Dennis? Layout? Yeah. Like the toys? And I haven't looked. I had to schedule this recording because I had a day full of work. So I'm not up on – I've seen some of the Discord discussions, which have mostly been positive, but the Discords I've been in have some very big Venom fans in it. Okay. I would say maybe, if anything, the theme in itself, the integration, we'll see how well that does. But the theme in and of itself, it's not like this crazy awesome theme for me. I wasn't a comic book kid, nor was I a comic book adult. So I just know Venom from the artwork and from the video games and just from the pop culture of Venom, which I'm a fan of. I like that, but I'm not a diehard. But it's not a theme that turns me off like some of the recent banned. Like, OK, fine. I'm just not a Rush fan, so I don't give a shit if Rush theme is in my game room. And you know how important theme is to me, Dennis. I know it's not as important to you, but to me, it is. And Venom, I can love on some Venom. It'll look great next to my Spider-Man vault. Dennis, I think we gave people plenty to think about and to look over and to get excited about when it comes to Stern Pinball's Venom. Well, it's always exciting when there's a new game release. I do look forward to getting to try it. But since I'm not personally planning to buy it because the theme doesn't resonate with me and I'm not really in the market right now, I don't know that I'll actually get to have a lot of in-depth exposure to the rule set, and I think the home environment is really going to be the only ideal way to do that. Unfortunate, but I'll hear through the grapevine whether or not it's resonated, and we'll know whether or not it's resonated if Stern continues to go down that path. You know, this will look really good next to a Deadpool as well, I think. Yeah, that's true. Well, I mean, all the zombie stuff kind of looks good. Currently, Deadpool is beautifully flanked by Buck Rogers and hoops. Oh, yeah. Tie your shoes, Ed. Damn. All those untied shoes. I'm going to go in there with a Sharpie and tie them for him. In closing for me, we haven't perfected this new structured system of grading games. But looking at it, if we take art, shots, layout, mechs, toys, code and rules, animation display, theme in general, that's six. It's loosely six. And I gave four big old check marks to those six that we were talking about. The two that I have not checked yet was layout and theme in general. Those checks can be taken away. Those checks can be added, but very loosely until I make a concrete system. This one seems like it's going to fit very well in my collection. And hopefully we'll see it streaming this next week live from Comic-Con. That's true. And Joel Engelberth will have one soon enough over at Flip N Out Pinball streaming. So go like, follow, subscribe there. And if you're looking to purchase your very own Venom pinball machine, please do so from Flip N Out Pinball, my pinball and arcade distribution company. All you've got to do is go to FlippinOutPinball.com. That's Flipp, the letter N, outpinball.com. Or you can email me at Zach, Z-A-C-H, at Flipp, the letter N, outpinball.com. Or text me, 812-457-9711. Ooh, and we have first run premium model spots available. And I believe at the time of this recording, we have a couple Venom LE spots available. More details can be found at FlippinOutPinball.com or by emailing or texting me today. Like right now. Do it. For all of you that are part of the Pinball Show official club membership, thank you. You sexy beast you. Man, you know what, Dennis? I want to host them, if you know what I mean. I don't. to end you all with the words of venom that power it's not completely awful and always practice safe pinball and dingo ganger up