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Episode 54 - Pinball Metamorphosis: The System 11 Era Pt.2

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·45m 49s·analyzed·Oct 28, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

System 11 era deep-dive: design, sales, art, and the wild creativity of 1989-1990 Williams/Bally pinball.

Summary

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast Episode 54 continues a deep-dive history of Williams/Bally's System 11 era pinball machines (1989-1990). Hosts Alan, Alex, and guest Ty Palmer analyze approximately 15 games released during this period, covering design philosophy, production numbers, artwork, sound design, and gameplay mechanics. The episode highlights the creative ferment following the Williams-Bally merger, examining both commercial successes (Whirlwind, Black Knight 2000) and obscure cult titles (Transporter, Radical), while celebrating the weird, ambitious design sensibilities that characterized the era.

Key Claims

  • Black Knight 2000 sold 5,700 units, making it a successful follow-up despite lower sales than the original Black Knight

    high confidence · Alan states sales figures directly while discussing the game

  • Transporter is the rarest System 11 game with only 860 units sold

    high confidence · Ty Palmer explicitly states '860 units' and calls it 'probably the most unique playfield design from this era'

  • Police Force was originally themed as Batman but the license fell through because they couldn't use Michael Keaton or Jack Nicholson's likenesses

    high confidence · Alan cites Roger Sharp's previous podcast testimony about the Batman-to-Police Force retheme

  • Dennis Norman designed Elvira and the Party Monsters but was incapacitated by a dirt bike accident during production, prompting Jim Patla, Mark Ritchie, and Steve Ritchie to help finalize the game

    high confidence · Alan details the accident and recovery process, noting Mark and Steve Ritchie were involved in exotic riding with Dennis

  • Greg Freris and Jim Patla likenesses were used for the Wolfman and Dracula characters in Elvira and the Party Monsters

    high confidence · Alan states Greg Freris 'used Dennis's likeness for the wolfman character' and 'Jim Patla's likeness for the Dracula character'

  • Radical was inspired by anthropomorphic cats Python Angelo observed living near the Williams building

    high confidence · Alan explains Python saw 11 stray cats from his apartment near Williams and had typed cards with their names and descriptions

  • Whirlwind is ranked number 1 as the best System 11 game overall

    high confidence · Ty states 'it's actually the number one ranked system 11 game for some reason they made 7 300 of them'

  • Brian Eddy did software on Pool Sharks early in his career before becoming famous for Attack from Mars, Shadow, and Medieval Madness

    high confidence · Ty credits Brian Eddy on Pool Sharks software and notes his later famous games

Notable Quotes

  • “The song exceeds the game... Every time I hear that, I'm like, was that Greg Geffen on this shit?”

    Alan@ 2:00 — Highlights the iconic Brian Schmidt/Steve Richie music on Black Knight 2000, comparing to Bad Religion sound

  • “I don't go out of my way to play it now. It's not as good as High Speed.”

    Alex (Waterboy)@ 3:30 — Competitive comparison between classic games, establishing hierarchy of era design

  • “Don't get dissuaded by those ugly fucking bally carrot flippers. The game's very good.”

    Ty Palmer@ 5:44 — Defense of a rare, obscure game despite aesthetic complaints about Bally hardware quirks

  • “I think this is like one of the best art packages... Python makes you uncomfortable. That's what he does.”

    Alan@ 10:06 — Recognition of Python Angelo's distinctive unhinged artistic approach defining Bally's identity

  • “Probably the best sound of any pinball machine ever. Definitely insidious sound, dude. It gets in your head.”

    Ty@ 12:02 — High praise for Bad Cats' sound design and its cultural penetration

  • “This is where you really see the combination come together where you get light, sound, mechanical features tied together... that becomes a hallmark of later games.”

    Alan@ 15:54 — Identifies Whirlwind as inflection point where system design philosophy matured

  • “Steve Ritchie doesn't really miss. He doesn't really miss. Steve Ritchie's good, dude.”

    Ty@ 23:33 — Recognition of Steve Ritchie's consistent design excellence across multiple eras

  • “Neon should be used as a weapon dude, and it's used as a weapon.”

Entities

AlanpersonAlex (Waterboy)personTy PalmerpersonSteve RitchiepersonMark RitchiepersonDennis NormanpersonJim PatlapersonPat LawlerpersonPython Angeloperson

Signals

  • ?

    historical_signal: Comprehensive retrospective of System 11 era (1989-1990) examining design philosophy, art direction, sound design, and manufacturing context across ~15 games

    high · Episode 54 Part 2 of structured multi-part System 11 coverage; systematic analysis of each game's design credits, production numbers, and creative decisions

  • ?

    design_philosophy: System 11 era characterized by bold, unconventional artistic choices, mechanical complexity (rotary sanders, multiple flippers, skybridge shots), center ramp ubiquity, and willingness to create 'weird' experiences that wouldn't be approved in modern era

    high · Alan's closing statement: 'This is why I love this era so much. It's like, we don't get this anymore.' Praise for Python's uncomfortable aesthetic, Game Show's psycho neon color palette, Radical's skateboard culture integration

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Williams/Bally System 11 era featured prolific, interconnected designer community including Steve Ritchie, Mark Ritchie, Pat Lawler, Dennis Norman, Dan Langlois, and early-career Brian Eddy; evidence of mentorship and collaborative finalization processes

    high · Dennis Norman's motorcycle accident during Elvira development prompted Jim Patla, Steve, and Mark Ritchie to collaborate on finalization; Brian Eddy's software work on Pool Sharks as early career step

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Police Force originally licensed as Batman Tim Burton film (couldn't secure likenesses of Michael Keaton/Jack Nicholson); Roller Games pitched as American Gladiators but fell through

    high · Alan credits Roger Sharp's previous podcast testimony on both licensing failures and subsequent rethemes

  • ?

Topics

System 11 era hardware and design (1989-1990)primaryWilliams-Bally merger and organizational changesprimaryArt and visual design in 1980s-1990s pinballprimarySound design and music licensing (Brian Schmidt, Chris Granner)primaryRamp design philosophy and center ramp ubiquityprimaryDesigner profiles and injury/accident narrativessecondaryLicensing deals and IP negotiations (Batman, American Gladiators)secondaryProduction numbers and sales rankingssecondary

Sentiment

positive(0.78)— Enthusiastic celebration of System 11 era creativity, design boldness, and artistic risk-taking. Hosts express deep affection for the period and lament the loss of 'weirdness' in modern pinball. Minor criticisms of specific games (center ramp overuse, rule imbalances) are constructive rather than dismissive. Strong nostalgia and appreciation throughout.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.137

0:00
It's Sunny Drive Time! Ladies and Gentlemen from Gladiator Arena in Los Angeles, California, here are the American Gladiators! Hey everybody, it's time for roller games. Are you ready?
0:36
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. My name is Alan, your host of this podcast. Joined once again by my co-host Alex the Waterboy and our good friend Ty Palmer doing part two of the System 11 era. Oh, yeah, we're still talking about Solid States. Yeah, baby. Let's go. These systems are so good, they go to 11. That's right. Yeah, so this is part two, since there's a lot of games to cover, and we want to make sure we got to all of them. I love that they skipped System 10.
1:06
They're like, no way, this one goes to 11. So we left off in 1989 with Pat Lawler's first real game, the way we see it, Earthshaker. now we're going into what probably has what you probably know for the music more than anything it's another it's another sequel game it's another sequel game i don't know where i'm going with this intro is black knight 2000 it's 1989 it's steve richie back to do another two level black knight game and the songs on this thing are awesome yep sound by brian schmidt dan ford and steve richie
1:40
steve richie famously kind of came up with the guitar hook to it uh the song itself is famous This is super catchy. The song, I like the game, but the song exceeds the game. I feel like there are fans of Bad Religion. Because it's just like, it's the guitar and then the oohs and aahs that you'd get through all the early Bad Religion albums. Yeah, I don't know. Every time I hear that, I'm like, was that Greg Geffen on this shit? No, that's Brian Schmidt. Was he the third bassist in Bad Religion? It's got surprisingly low sales numbers. I mean, they sold for being a follow up to a massive seller.

  • Roller Games was originally being licensed as American Gladiators but the deal fell through

    high confidence · Alan cites Roger Sharp's testimony: 'American Gladiators, as Roger Sharp told us. Should have been American. Instead, he admits he's like...'

  • Radical only had approximately 1,300 units produced and sells for around $6,000+ on the secondary market

    medium confidence · Ty states 'they only made like 1,300 of them' and mentions pricing around 'six-ish' grand, noting uncertainty

    • Ty@ 17:59 — Appreciation for bold color theory and artistic risk-taking in Bally's art department

  • “If you get the GC on it like Christian has, he's always going to hand deliver you one of his boards... this is a slice of California that few people know.”

    Ty@ 26:32 — Contextualization of Radical's aesthetic within 1990s skateboard culture and West Coast design

  • “This is why I love this era so much. It's like, we don't get this anymore.”

    Alan@ 28:26 — Summary statement of the episode's core thesis about the creative boldness of System 11 era

    • Dan Langlois
    person
    Greg Frerisperson
    Brian Eddyperson
    Roger Sharpperson
    Williams Manufacturingcompany
    Bally Manufacturingcompany
    Black Knight 2000game
    Transportergame
    Police Forcegame
    Whirlwindgame
    Roller Gamesgame
    Radicalgame
    Elvira and the Party Monstersgame
    Next Level (venue)venue
    Wedgehead Pinball Podcastorganization

    product_concern: Center ramp shots became ubiquitous during System 11 era, leading to balance issues where players could 'cheese' ramps infinitely for escalating points, reducing game depth. Industry eventually addressed with return ramp removal modifications or design constraints

    high · Discussed across multiple games (Police Force, Mousin' Around, Game Show). Specific example: 'if you can keep hitting that over and over again' center ramp on Police Force yields 'like 11 million just cheesing the million'; Mousin' Around has target bank locks to prevent endless ramp looping

  • ?

    collector_signal: Radical is highly coveted collector game with only ~1,300 units produced; secondary market pricing around $6,000+. Hosts note scarcity of other games like Transporter (860 units) and recommend playing them when encountered

    high · Ty on Radical: 'Some collector wanted to spend stupid money on it... they're like six-ish [grand]'; on Transporter: '860 units. I'm guessing most of our listeners don't... If you do see one, make sure you play it.'

  • ?

    artwork_signal: Bally's art direction under Python Angelo, John Yowsey, and Pat McMahon featured bold color theory, unhinged/uncomfortable aesthetic, and willingness to blend realistic and cartoonish elements in ways that would be considered off-putting today (e.g., Pool Sharks' humanoid sharks with realistic women; Radical's skateboard culture aesthetic)

    high · Alan on Game Show: 'neon should be used as a weapon dude'; on Python: 'He makes you uncomfortable. That's what Python does'; Ty on Radical: 'feels like a Trapper Keeper... feels like vision streetwear'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: System 11 era featured innovative mechanical features: Transporter's modified Harry Williams Flight 2000 ball lock with skybridge shot; Whirlwind's three rotary sanders; Radical's four unique flippers with distinct ramp shots; multiball design evolution

    high · Detailed mechanical descriptions throughout episode; Whirlwind identified as inflection point where 'light, sound, mechanical features tied together' became design hallmark

  • ?

    music_signal: Black Knight 2000's guitar-driven music by Brian Schmidt, Dan Ford, and Steve Ritchie is iconic and frequently compared to Bad Religion; Bad Cats features the most insidious/memorable meow sound in pinball history that 'gets in your head'; sound design became integral to game identity

    high · Alan notes 'guitar hook' and Bad Religion comparison; Bad Cats described as 'Probably the best sound of any pinball machine ever... It gets in your head... meow, meow, meow, meow'

  • ?

    community_signal: Wedgehead Pinball Podcast is detailed historical documentation effort with multi-part series on eras; cross-references previous episodes and guest appearances (Roger Sharp, Greg Freris); community actively seeks out and plays rare machines at venues like Next Level

    high · Multiple references to 'We covered this in depth on our two-part episodes'; invitation to 'go listen to the episode' on Bad Cats; community notes about playing Transporter at Next Level

  • ?

    venue_signal: Next Level arcade maintains System 11 collection including Transporter, Game Show, and other games discussed; serves as community play location where hosts can validate game experiences and test modifications (e.g., ramp return removal on Mousin' Around)

    medium · Multiple references to playing games at Next Level; hosts recently played Transporter and Game Show there to verify production condition

    • 2:13
    The original Black Knight, 5700 units. I think that's still a hit. It's still super well regarded. I still get people that walk into Wedget and tell me about how they love Black Knight 2000. That's a game that they remember from their childhood. I like the original Black Knight better, in my opinion, but it's fun. And I actually have seen a mod. I think one of the big pinball tournaments, they took out metal return rail. so like if you drain out of the upper playfield in those lanes it won't feed it directly back to flipper it'll just drop onto the lower playfield and i like that that makes the game a little more
    2:45
    interesting now yeah because you no longer have that just guaranteed safe feed from the upper flipper or from the upper playfield it's a super fast game but it's very controllable which can then make it a little bit long playing and a little it loses a little bit of steam for me If you're playing a copy where you can just hold the right flipper up and catch every ball out of the upper play field, it kind of sucks. Yeah, you can keep it up for a long ass time. That's how I learned. So when I got into pinball, the place that I started going, they had a 2K. It was the owner's favorite game.
    3:15
    So he had bought a Sword of Rage LE, which was fairly new at the time, and had that next to it. And I was always kind of like, ah, why would I put this old game? I was like, oh, that's cool. There's kind of like an old one and a new one. But I never played the old one. And then one day a dude showed me like, this is how you play Black Knight 2K. and i do love it for that reason but i don't go back i don't go out of my way to play it now it's not as good as high speed that's the thing yeah like high speed is like the best high speed and f14 this is like i put this kind of roller games which we're going to talk about as i said
    3:47
    put it out about on par with roller games i like it better i like roller games better probably okay anyway we'll move on from there to uh this is the first bally isn't it i don't know if that's in your notes. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So we're into the first Bally. So at this point, Bally has merged with Williams. We've kind of discussed that in random parts of other episodes, but they bought him out, right? Yeah, Williams bought Bally and they created a merger, which created a super company. And we cover that in depth on our two-part episodes with Roger Sharp covering the pinball renaissance of the 1990s. We also touch on it when we talk to Greg Freres about his time
    4:24
    went after the merger and then into his stern years but yeah it's designed by great comic and tony kramer software dan lee mechanics john crutch a rare time where he's not with a pat lawler art by tim elliott sound by john hay and robin siever this only sold 860 units so an extremely rare game i don't know if i said the title of the game it's transporter you didn't even say the title no i got distracted with the bally it's transporter the rescue and it's sick dude it's also got a very it's again progressive jackpot lowest selling game probably the most unique playfield design
    5:01
    from this era and it has a modified version of the harry williams flight 2000 style ball lock and it has this crazy skybridge shot it's cool it's very cool very fun very different game yeah It's got that shot across the playfield on the plastic ramp into a little, I don't know what you call that, besides a toilet bowl. I don't know what the official term is for those. It's like what you see on Creature from the Black Lagoon or on Whitewater. And it's just cool the way you start your multiball. It beats that flipper and you can kind of lock the ball, you know, get the balls up in there to spend some time.
    5:33
    It's a fun one. It's just, I was just playing this recently at Next Level. We're lucky to have a copy near us because 860 units. I'm guessing most of our listeners don't. But if you do see one, make sure you play it. Don't get dissuaded by those ugly fucking bally carrot flippers. The game's very good. The carrot flippers and sometimes the carrot flippers feel a little bit spongy and stuff. But I was recently just playing it as well and played a couple games to make sure I got not only into multiball, but got a jackpot while I was in multiball. And it's a fun game.
    6:03
    Next up, Police Force, August 1989. A straightforward game about the police, right? Yeah, and a center ramp that doesn't quit. Yeah, see, another game. I can cheese that thing all day. Harry Ousler, Mark Ritchie. It's strange that they were both credited here. And also you get Python Angelo and John Yowsey on art. You get Chris Granner. I think what happened is this game was being developed as Batman. Roger told us about that, about how they were licensing it to be based on the Tim Burton Batman film.
    6:35
    ended up walking away from the licensing deal because he couldn't use the likenesses of michael keaton or jack nicholson so they rethemed it to police force so i think that what happened is they just sort of had to tweak some stuff that's why there's yowsee and python although that wasn't uncommon with python games like python would very famously end up doing one piece of a package and then yeah but i think it was like that's why mark's on i'm sure they just had to massage some things out it's basically animals as cops and robbers yeah you want to get the drug rat it's
    7:07
    like the center i don't know if this is like supposed to be like fucking la riots like what's going on on the back glass because it's like the cops are like in a big gang shoot like they're in like a three-way gang shootout with all of the different animals it reminds me of the scene in um the shootout scene in robocop when they're in that in front of those buildings and like But there's a great alligator in a coat with a Tommy gun. Yeah, it's like some gang or the mob alligator.
    7:38
    I love the art package on this game. I think it's fucking unhinged in the right way. It touches all my buttons. And I think the game is okay. I don't like the... There's some rules problems with this game, right? There's massive point imbalances. Another progressive jackpots. isn't this the one that also has the steal your the other person's score type of thing i think it might yeah i think so i don't know and so that kind of shit and it also has the like it also has the center ramp thing that's kind of just all over this era it's the add test for me like if
    8:11
    i can keep hitting that over and over again i pretty good focus and my i think i've gotten up to like 11 million just cheesing the million yeah just going over so that's probably what like 15 shots in a row through the center yeah that uh so yeah super unbalanced so it's an easy way to get a replay if you want to keep playing sold 4700 unit ranked number 235 yeah it did pretty good okay after that we got a bally game kind of getting back to what bally is known for right hell yeah it's elvira and the party monsters october 1989 it's designed by dennis norman and jim patla
    8:42
    yeah there's an interesting story there software by mark bonaccio art by greg freris who was lovely and got to join us on the show listen to those episodes if you killed this one too yeah destroyed it this is like when he was injured no so this is dennis norman the designer oh right i got in a motorcycle accident when he was riding dirt bikes with the richie brothers and he decided to like kind of show off and like i said mark and steve live on the edge they were doing some exotic writing this is the danger of bally merging with williams you introduced all those those soft
    9:14
    bally boys to the edgy world of williams yeah so dennis he had a pretty serious accident uh he had to spend some time in the hospital when this game was getting finalized and put on the production so jim patla who was kind of in a senior design role at the time stepped in and also steve and mark ritchie all came in and kind of smoothed over and finalized some design details on the game but it's all been confirmed they all basically said like you know the game was done like the layout still dennis is still his game they just kind of helped since he was incapacitated greg
    9:47
    ferrers also used dennis's likeness for the wolfman character and he used jim patla's likeness for the Dracula character. So good. So good. Dude, I love those little Easter eggs. The phenomenal art package. So well done. Probably I'm trying to think of a better overall package on a System 11 game, but this is up there. This is the best one. I think this is the best art package. It has got great call-outs. This is the first of the trilogy, right? So very successful. It's the first licensed game that they end up doing at all, so it's the first
    10:18
    license that Rogers secures. It's ranked number 81 out of 299. again just and it sold 4 000 units and it was funny because when we on our greg frayer's episode he's like ah we were outsold by police force and we thought we had a better game like as that design team and you're like you definitely had a better game yeah damn right one of the best for sure yep okay another game that we've talked about on the show in great detail before because it was a die on this hill title is bad cats from november 1989 oh yeah this is uh another barry housler
    10:50
    game another python angelo barry housler joint it's like every other game i know dude it's crazy they were so prolific i guess um this is a scene that python saw from his apartment that was close to the williams building at the time he moved out and moved to kind of like a black back lot area near williams and there's all these stray cats and he has names for all 11 of them i think yeah it's it's a wild scene so like in his own personal version he had this little card that he had all typed up all the names and what they're doing and what they're up to it's very python I know you said to me if you want to bring it on the show or not but I know you said to me that you personally don like this art package Though it so bizarre to me I like it I think this is like one of Python good ones to me
    11:33
    Freaks me out like clown art. Yeah, I know. It is. That's what Python does. He makes you uncomfortable. It's all over the place with like the different, we talked about this in the Die on the Cell episode, which you should go back and listen to if you want to hear more about bad cats. But I just love the variety of cats. It's so bizarre in the different perspectives. It's like everything's just kind of smushed in there. It's got back glass, animated back glass. It's got the feature on the play field. It's just, it's got a lot of shit going on. Again, though, center ramp. Probably the best sound of any pinball machine ever.
    12:05
    Definitely insidious sound, dude. It gets in your head. The meow, meow, meow, meow in the seafood. Yeah. How often do you sing that to your own cat? Like, meow, meow, meow, meow. It's good. And yeah, if you want to hear us, you know, talk about it to even greater length, go listen to the episode. After that, they figured they did one for the cats. It's only fair to do one for the mice. It's Mousin' Around, December 1981. Do you want to mouse around? Stop mousin' around!
    12:37
    This is designed by Ward Pemberton. He was an old ballet designer. He did Fathom, most notably. Software, Jim Stromopoulos, Jim Stromopoulos. metropolis yeah they only sold 3 000 of these things i feel like i see them all over art at pat mcmahon we got sound by down ford in ranked number 155 out of 299 so it's ranked higher than bad cats it was really interesting that they were back to back back to back i didn't realize that until we were uh kind of arranging this list for this episode but it's got i was just playing this
    13:09
    and it's fun this is a fun game dude that's good have you ever played one with the ramp returns removed no so it's not unc i've seen multiple copies like this i've only played one but they have these little 45 degree plastics on the end of the ramps to slow the ball down and feed it to your flippers safely and they crack a lot so people will just take them off and the balls fucking rip back to your flippers full speed off the ramp oh you know what yeah actually one of them does yeah it was just playing with that yeah it did on the right side through the center ramp return it makes it that center ramp so it makes it way more difficult to just loop the center ramp
    13:43
    which is the biggest gripe with center ramp shots right you also yes and you could just loop it over and over they get to be worth more and more because it's kind of like this time they were like here's the center ramp you just hit it again and it goes up from 250 to 500k to 750 to a million and then you're like okay then nothing else is worth doing it's not dangerous this actually has a target bank that you have to lower like attack from mars in front of it to hit that turnaround center shot and like alex was saying when it's missing the guards and it spits it out of you You can like, it'll shoot it past your flipper before you can blink.
    14:13
    It's sick. And it's just got the mousetrap targets that come up and lock the balls and start the multiball. It's got that cheese hole. The cheese hole for the jackpot. You want to throw it in that cheese hole. Right? Isn't that what it's called? Yeah. Diverter on the back. Yes. Yeah. And it goes behind the, does it go behind the. It's not even a diverter, dude. It's just momentum. It has to be the momentum will carry it up and around and through the back box. Or it'll just kind of do a return down the left side and the ramp return. This game is fun, and it's a fun theme. It's just one of those ones that it's like,
    14:45
    the Bally games do have their own kind of cartoony feel to them always, even our package regardless, and it fits well all together with this one. Yeah, I enjoy this game a lot, actually, quite a bit. I think it's super fun. It's kind of a sleeper. Sleeper game for sure. It's not one a lot of people talk about much. Okay, kind of a mid-game after this. Some say classic, some say whatever. The jury's out on this one, folks. whirlwind it's only ranked number 64 it's actually the number one ranked system 11 game
    15:15
    for some reason they made 7 300 of them like yeah it's designed by pat lawler foots and reuter john yowsey on art mechanics by john crutch and jack scallon sound by chris granner it's whirlwind january 1990 all jokes aside it's pretty good pretty fucking good so we can just skip it then huh it's got like pat doing as much shit as he really wanted to yeah got like he's got his toys on top of the game he's got his toys in the game it's a fun it's a fun one
    15:50
    it's got the rotary sanders in the middle not one not two but three of them yeah three of them a lot of chaos going there this is where you really see the combination i feel like all come together where you get light sound mechanical features tied together at a time you get the moments in this game do the moments you get big moments in this game and that's becomes a hallmark of of later games and into the modern era what everyone's seeking is that and uh i think this is like you know this is damn near a perfect game do you guys experience this too like when you first started
    16:23
    learning pinball you're coming across this game it was just as fun then as it is now yeah yeah i have the same feeling yeah it is and it can be hard as fuck it can be yeah the more you know about the harder it gets yeah if that's what makes it fun pinpointing shit you're like okay this is what i'm gonna do and you plot it out and you go for it you just start eating shit by the time this episode airs we're gonna have this one back on the floor oh good kind of coincide with our system 11 nice okay after that if we could go on for more about whirlwind but we're just gonna move on to something you've all heard about it you know what whirlwind is we're gonna do a cool half hour on
    16:56
    game show from april 1990 bally's back with the best teeth in the game it's game show april 1990 dan langlois yeah and peter perry which is like his kind of design intern buddy oh dan langlois he's a weirdo designer that was hired by bally in the dark ages in the mid 80s there to kind of switch it up yep he's someone we hope to do a full episode about in the future because his games are interesting very interesting layouts very weird this also has a center ramp but it kind of loops
    17:28
    back on itself and it's molded in one giant piece i won't say that this is still a good one because it's still a center ramp so i don't love it sold 2500 units rank 255 i just look at this game and go man i kind of wish this was death to smoochie obviously that movie hadn't been made yet and i do like how psycho the art package is like it is psycho shit and it's like good bright greens where you shouldn't like nothing in the theme calls for neon green but they got it in that
    17:59
    art yeah neon should be used as a weapon dude and it's used as a weapon yeah it's a nice like outline color and just used very um very strategically it's really nice yeah i wouldn't ever think to put so much red with neon green and pink and it's just like batshit crazy normally it could be really putrid, but you need to balance it out when they do that really well with Yellows and Oranges too. Kind of like just drift it off. It's a game I really need to, I know there's one at next level, I need to play it. For some reason, I always just kind of avoid it. It's fun and easy. You know, I think this actually, for the novice players.
    18:29
    Fun and easy. Yeah, for novice players out there and you want to get into System 11s, this is a good entry point because you can just start your multiball easy. You can cheese a center ramp. You can just get things going and like there's kind of a very clear. It's not punishing. Not punishing at all. Very clear indication on what to do next. So yeah, if you're just getting into it, yeah, play some game show. After this, we go to Pool Sharks, which is a weird kind of combo art going on the back class. It just caught me off guard. I've never played this game. I'm just going to say that up front. I was going to say that about this game. I was like, you know,
    19:00
    this is the game I've spent the least amount of time playing. It's the game I've seen the least often. It's not like it's the lowest production run. I mean, they sold 2,500 units. It's ranked number 256. Art by Jug Watson, sound by paul heisch and robin siever zofia bill who starts her job as a mechanical engineer here she does some great games later doctor who and bram stoker's dracula so she makes all those kind of like yeah really cool mechs tony kramer's on design here he's also a mechanical engineer he
    19:31
    has some design credits on some games but i think the game's most notable for brian eddy on software who ends up becoming a pretty famous pinball designer. Yeah. Still working in the industry today, but he made some games like Attack from Mars, Shadow, Medieval Madness. So it's interesting that he does software on this game. Yeah, that's how we got to start. Is this one of his first jobs? Yeah. Okay, cool. And yeah, I don't know. I've played this thing and I don't really remember very much about it. So I need to go seek one out.
    20:02
    It's weird that there's like shark humanoids on the back class and they're pool players and then there's like hot female babes that's why it really is like putting an off-putting combination it's kind of like oktoberfest where they like combined the realistic women with cartoon like men and it's really off-putting to me when you do that i don't yeah like i don't like that for some reason like the anthropomorphic like hot cheetah chick that shows up in some of these games too yeah you're like this is uh confusing party zone
    20:34
    you're like what the hell oh dude i love that i do love that like i kind of like this just because it's like it just feels like pinball it's stunning it's different it's just like huh what what are they doing yeah it causes me to be like what is going on here it's kind of like the movie uh cool world where you have like real action brad pitt and then like oh yeah the animated um female character i forget yeah i don't know her name but anyway yeah so you have these uh this this contrast between something that's like highly rendered and realistic and then like these
    21:05
    cartoony gang of sharks and the hammerhead is actually taken quite literally they're used the hammer the tool rather than the actual way the hammerhead shark works yeah it's weird it's weird they went a lot of ways i give everything points for being weird like i've missed this in pinball i miss shit being weird yeah makes me want to go play it so i guess it's working that's that's a success okay so the king's back now we're leaving pool sharks behind the king is back for is this his first licensed game yes and we're talking roller games roller games it's really licensed
    21:38
    designed by steve richie software mark panacho mechanics carl biaggi art pat mcmahon playfield by pepsi flippers flippers by thermos is this a stock car is this a goddamn pinball mug pinball Oh, we got slice soda. Yeah. Brought to you by Slice Out Lanes. Drink your slice. Good luck. Don't suck. It's midly ranked. It's ranked number 182. I think that would qualify as a die on the hill game if anyone listening wants to do it.
    22:08
    It could have been American Gladiators, as Roger Sharp told us. Should have been American. Instead, he admits he's like. I've never watched either of them. So to me, it's like, what's the difference? American Gladiators rules, dude. Does American Gladiators have the sickest song of all time? does it go roll roll roll no no it's good though it's real good like american gladiators is great roger sharpe's like man i wish i would have known this would have been american gladiators which is also funny because gottlieb even a couple years later they make a game called arena that was
    22:40
    supposed to be gladiators and same thing shit fell through they couldn't make it on the deadline or something so they had to convert it to an original theme so it interesting that we almost got two different companies making two different American Gladiator games Stupid theme Roller games Way sicker theme Really sick game Sick game Sick layout dude Dude the fucking little you hit the vertical up kicker and it go don flip And the ball pops out of there and it goes to a magnet and then the game goes, flip. Yeah. And it goes up the upper ramp shot because that upper ramp shot's kind of a bitch without that thing.
    23:14
    Yeah. It's a tough upper ramp shot. The wall. Sorry, I should call it by its name. Yeah, the wall. It'll be like, shoot for the wall. It's a good game, dude. I played a lot of this just recently. I can see you owning this. It would fit really well. Right next to Rock. Dude, Rock and No Fear. This would kind of bridge the gap. Yeah. Yeah, this is a fun game, dude. I like this game. It's good. Steve Ritchie doesn't really miss. He doesn't really miss. Steve Ritchie's good, dude. I lives on the edge. And his brother's up next. It's Mark Ritchie. It's September 1990. And it's Diner. Diner, yeah.
    23:45
    Art by Mark Springer again. Sound Chris Graner. Rich Carstens. Jim Strompolis on software sold 3,500 units, pin side rank 117. Ooh, pretty high. And, you know, right near Earthshaker there, got character stereotype callouts that wouldn't fly now. Yeah. It's of its time. They wouldn't do that now, but they're played for comedic relief. But it is like characters, you're trying to fill their orders. It's got crisscross ramps again, a Mark Ritchie staple.
    24:16
    again the art package feels i mean kind of like iconic to me dude it's real good the animated back box where they have people on plastics but they they kind of are mounted on like springs so when you're just kind of nudging or playing the game they kind of bobble around the bobblehead effect yeah it has the really interactive yeah the world under glass is there it's got a cool kind of coffee cup skill shot and the clock in the coffee cup toilet bowl yeah is that the jukebox thing in the back yeah like i like this game a lot i know water boy doesn't so i like it i don't
    24:50
    know what to ever do i need to play it more it's just a lot of these games when i when i don't oh it's just like you start with a character and they call out an order i know and you fill their order you just clear drops yeah and then there's the multi-ball and then there's jackpots in your multi-ball every time i play it i feel like all i do is clear drops and that's why i need to figure this one out more because i really do like how it looks and it feels like it should be another taxi for me it's just not there yet yeah is this part of the uh service industry uh trilogy yeah i think so they never made bartender they did yeah they did make truck stop though yeah they did make
    25:25
    truck stop yeah and they didn't wheel in night rider to this um this whole equation but yeah i like this game a lot okay from there we get back to another dan langlois game the one that he's probably best known for well i shouldn't say probably the one he's absolutely best known for and it's bally's radical in september 1990 it's the skate or die game that yells skate or die at you over and over and it is fucking batshit crazy ramps batshit crazy ramps and refeeds the left ramp is like super close and it's like just above the left slingshot uh it's got lots of
    26:01
    loops and turns it's got four flippers yeah four flippers that each have their own unique ramp shot off of them you know yeah it's kind of it's got a lot going on it's got a lot of flow if it's tuned well and you're in tune with the game you can kind of just kind of loop and move the game around uh art by john yowsey i love this art package it it feels like it's perfect for the era it feels like a trapper keeper or something art like yeah no it feels like vision streetwear it feels like a mark gator ragowski board like you have all those cool patterns and colors you
    26:32
    feel like yeah if you get the the gc on it like christian has always going to hand deliver you one of his boards decide it and you go to the tony hawk ramp jam and yeah it is a slice of california that few people know yeah i wish we still wanted what a sell it's fucking sick though this is one that it's like when i saw it the first time i was like holy shit and i played it and i was like holy shit like it is awesome i don't know the rules at all the sound should have been done by van halen and it should have just been playing hot for the teacher because the kid skateboarding
    27:02
    He can't be older than 14, and the chick checking him out in a little photo montage, she's over 20. It's a very coveted collector game. They sell for stupid money because they only made like 1,300 of them. Rhodes used to have one. I wish we still kind of had it, but... What do they go for? Some collector wanted to spend stupid money on it. Like 10 grand? I think they're like six-ish. They're like, yeah, they go for like... Eh, maybe that's low. I don't know. Yeah. I have to watch what I say because I'm like, I do like this thing. I just, I don't know. It's a very fun game to shoot.
    27:34
    I don't know if it's necessarily a very good game because I just don't know it that well. I'm working really hard to try to love it. But I love the theme. I love the shots. It's super fun. It immediately attracted me the first time I saw it. It's one of two games that are in Tony Hawk's personal office. Yeah, which makes sense. Yeah. Give that guy his own game, man. We need another skateboarding game. Yeah. Like Jack Danger doing a fucking Dan Langlois love letter with Tony Hawk would be... Yeah, that'd be so good. Yeah, and if you trapped into an era like this, or if you had an L.E., that was a certain era.
    28:09
    Yeah, give me a Tony Hawk's underground L.E. Yeah, this is rad. Anyway, fun game. It's rare. If you see one, absolutely play it. It will not disappoint you in how it shoots. After that, we're on something that's also batshit crazy. It's Doctor Dude, November 1990. This is why I love this era so much. It's like, we don't get this anymore. No, you don't get Radical. We don't get Dr. Dudes. We don't get Pool Sharks. Hey. We don't get that. We're getting X-Men, Uncanny, whatever. Sure, but that's a major Marvel theme.
    28:40
    The play field looks interesting and more interesting, but I just miss, I'm just nostalgic for this era. That's why I wanted to do this. System 11, it's like, man, we start getting these big mechanical features like we do here on Dr. Dude with the molecular mix master. We had, you know, the gift of Gap. Hypercolor neons. Like, the color is great. The colors are so good. The world building's cool. All the little gimmicks. Like, they used, like, what, three cords that are neon whatever color, and they have no purpose but to look awesome.
    29:10
    They just look awesome. Again, you know, Greg Freris on art, Dennis Norman on design, Dream Pair right there, Foots on software, Sound by Chris Granern, John Hay sold 4,000 units. pin side rank is 233 and greg told us on that episode that he and dennis were offered the choice to make teenage mutant ninja turtles uh because roger was interested in doing that license but they chose and actually greg takes full responsibility he's like i thought it sounded juvenile and i chose to make this game instead which i think is it's funny that this was like
    29:43
    the mature option yeah this is a mature option this is grown-up shit i'm thankful you know it is like peak 80s goofiness i i'm just grateful it exists i love the like pompadour rat tail that dr dude has like that combo is i love just the character unreal it's a rare mullet in terms of how it's composed it's not a kentucky waterfall it's not a tennessee shovel cut it's the pompadour that terminates in a sweet little rat tail and yeah we don't see again until uh, Anakin Skywalker in episode three.
    30:18
    He kind of has the same cut, you know? It's poofy on top with the rat tail. George Lucas is just in, like, costume and wardrobe, and they're like, what should we do? What does a young Jedi look like? You're like, uh, like fucking Dr. Dude. Dude, it's sick. It's just a game that it's, like, it's very iconic. It's very, like, you know, you remember this. You remember all the party themes, but this is, like, the one that I just, I love the character so much yeah i think this is a very cool game yeah i feel like dr dude only has like two outcomes when you go to a cm you're like oh you're clear bro all right and the other one's not so
    30:51
    good he's like oh it's herpes damn it dr dude it's that kind of vibe from the doctor okay game itself though also pretty fun pretty fun we just talked about the art and theme and everything but it's like it does hold up well it's one in the same you know it's kind of like i kind of get the game mixed up with Party Zone in my head, but I think I like this one quite a bit more than Party Zone. I like them both. Party Zone is actually a ripper, dude. Party Zone is fun. Maybe I need to get sold on Party Zone sometime. Yeah, we got a Party Zone. Get that thing in. Okay. Anyway,
    31:23
    after that, we go to a lesser known game or maybe less memorable. It's Riverboat Gambler from November 1990. It's designed by Ward Pemberton. Remind me, what has Ward done that i love fathom fathom and i thought he had oh did like bmx he did oh yeah hard body dude hard body yeah the good version of bmx yeah greg's proudest art package software by a mr dwight sullivan it's his first game dwight sullivan's first game it's also artist linda deal's first full art package
    31:59
    she did do some back box illustration on roller games but pat mcmahon did the rest of that art package this is her first full package she would go on to do games like circus voltaire interesting theater of magic some of those papaduke games it's a very interesting layout ward pemberton did make some pretty interesting layouts uh i was just playing this recently and i was actually having a blast on it's got a crazy skill set up and it's got kind of a again we're not calling these wizard modes yet it's not true wizard mode but it does have the kind of thing where it's like
    32:31
    You got to do all the casino games and they're all corresponding different shots in the play field. And it is fun. It's got a roulette wheel in the back box that spins. And you got to bet with these extra buttons that are on top of the lockdown bar. Weird casino theme, but actually quite a bit of fun. I enjoy it quite a bit. OK, I need to spend more time on this one for sure. It's one I've just kind of walked by almost every time. I know I've played it at some point and I remember liking how it shot, but I had no idea what I was doing. And I kind of just walked away too soon. So, yeah, I'll come back to it. Yeah, it was a good time.
    33:02
    I was having a good time playing it. We're on to, is this the lowest rated System 11 game? This is not only the lowest rated System 11 game, it is actually number 297 out of 299. So one of the lowest rated games of all time. It's also the last game of the System 11 era, released in January 1991. John Trudeau on design, software Dan Lee, mechanics Jack Scallon, art by John Yowsey and Python Angelo, sound by Paul Heisch. They sold 2,500 units. it is Bugs Bunny Birthday Ball.
    33:33
    This is the one that's like, okay, so I said, I think Transporter, that was the wildest layout. This is probably the wildest layout. Yeah. It's so ambitious and weird. Although Radical's pretty wild too. So like those three are like the crazy ones. This beats everything though because it's just fucking like wonky. Very wonky. If you've not played this game, it's got Bugs Bunny Birthday Ball. It's got a, like, reversed section of the playfield with a flipper facing you, and you flip the ball up towards you, and it's a fun thing to do.
    34:06
    I don't know. It's fun. I don't know if it's a good use of space, but it does work pretty well. And it is pretty, like, entertaining when you, like, can crack, like, there's a captive ball there. I wish there was a little more to do with that flipper but then it would take even more space away from the regular playfield And I think that where this game suffers already is that there not much to do on the primary play field It has wide body ideas but in a normal standard company 100 And again, the big ramp on this game is a center ramp. So again, and it kind of circles and swoops around the back box and drops into a pop
    34:37
    bumper nest. I just, it's at least it doesn't return back to your same flipper. Yeah. And also at least it's pushed back far enough. And there's also no like right out lane. it's like and it's got the longer carrot flippers that are actually literally you know drawn to look like carrots on this game yeah at least it makes sense for once yeah i do like how when this game's lit up and it's got kind of rainbow color looney tunes and and like i do i like the art package i know i know alex doesn't like looney tunes as a theme but i grew up on looney tunes so like
    35:08
    i still think like this is the best looking looney tunes game i think it's a wild departure from what pinball ever was or certainly is now i don't know that it entirely works i don't think many people love this game but if you're listening and you're like fuck that i love this game please send us an email wedgeheadinfo at gmail.com and say that you want to do a die on this hill for this game because this game qualifies as much as any game like i said it's this is about as bad as a game can be ranked yes 297 out of 299 so it's we'll say it's like if you've ever seen python's pencil
    35:43
    sketches of playfields and i said this when we were playing it recently is it's like have you ever seen those pencil sketches of playfields it's like real vague ideas like he'll draw a ramp that takes up half the game and he'll draw just goofy shit and it's really like exaggerated and does not look like an actual pinball machine this time it looks like they actually just made it based off a python sketch like it's weird it does all this stuff it all works it's not necessarily a good game but it is very novel it's definitely you'll never forget it and nothing feels like it no and it's still true to the ip too yeah which is which is great yeah his sketches to your point water
    36:18
    boy they're really interesting they're really um exaggerated like you're talking about but i'm surprised on how tight his sketch work was yeah it made me appreciate him more as an illustrator to see like how he flushes out quick ideas really tightly what i've heard is just from everyone like greg ferris mentioned it when other people talk about python despite him being a crazy character with crazy stories you hear about him and some of his art packages are just like i said he hits the uncanny valley for me some of them i love some of them i'm like oh i'm like repulsed by but everyone
    36:49
    that's ever worked with him or whatever they they just are like that dude was supremely talented like all these other incredible illustrators that i look up to and love their art packages every time they talk about like his talent they're like python was like a nut like he could just draw free hand on a wall yeah oh and he knew it too you know like he would like they're like okay hey, everybody, let's come to work Monday through Friday, 9 to 5. He's like, no way. If I want to stay there for 24 hours on end, I'll do it. If I don't show up, I don't show up.
    37:19
    And he made, like, wild excuses. Like, his mom died three times. He used that excuse three times. And the dude would just fly from the seat of his pants and just bust out amazing work when he, like, put his nose to the grindstone. And it shows. I think this last thing is, like, this was actually released after Funhaus, which was the first WPC game. and the WPC era is the board set and framework that was the successor to System 11 it's weird that we get one System 11 game after they announced the new kind of system but it must
    37:49
    have just been what's the what's the excuse we always use right they must have had some extra parts lying around the factory still had to get rid of right I could I could see on this one the licensing being a bitch to work out so it's probably in the works for a while because it is definitely odd you'd think you would go all out when you get a license like this and throw you know the new tech and everything at it oh i bet warner brothers was really hard to work with on this too well and python also said that he would never work on a licensed game he was very proud of like he's like i don't want to do ip i don't want to do licenses but he broke his own personal
    38:21
    rules so that he could have the opportunity to draw bugs bunny which he spoke about on his top guest interview and he considered a great personal honor yeah but then he also does popeye to completely contradict himself and he almost did batman and and he doesn't talk about i don't think he would have done the art package if it would have been batman i think that probably would have been a yowsey thing oh yeah i saw his sketches for it though and like the composition is really similar uh from police force to batman like where they're sitting in the car yeah yeah and um he put in robin even though robin wasn't in the movie so yeah robin's co-pilot and batman's driving
    38:54
    python was a man that contradicted himself a lot if you listen to him speak he was a character like greg frayer said when he was speaking to us he's like he was a character and he knew he was a character so you know it was intentional he knew himself uh and it was all part of the big show but that kind of ranks up the system 11 you guys have any closing thoughts on the era yeah aren't we supposed to say our favorites or something do a snake draft maybe yeah what do we want to let's uh maybe draw numbers and then do a little snake draft of our top five so snake draft what do you
    39:25
    mean by snake draft so you will uh i draft one and then you go and then he goes and then he goes then i go then you go and how many are we picking we'll pick three pick three each yeah on the list go ahead what's your first pick alan all right first pick well i gotta pick the first one this is the one i think is truly the best out of all these great games i'm taking high speed damn it you really think that's the best yeah okay yeah i i mean that it's the to me it's the best it's my favorite although i like a lot of these games so yeah i got a grand lizard have to go grand
    39:56
    loser for my pick so part of me needs to i know i need to get a richie before you guys steal the rest of the right but instead i'll throw a curveball in there i'm gonna take whirlwind okay you have the next pick is a fucking good game yeah you have to wrap around shit okay good good then i'm gonna take f14 is the one i want to play next damn it i am gonna snipe this from alan and pick space station oh shit damn that's a good pick dude it's hard looking back at this list i'm like Oh, shit.
    40:26
    Oh, shit. There's, like, more. I need more than three. I'm going to take Elvira and the Party Monsters. Yeah, that's a good one. All right. Ellen, you pick again. Ooh, wraparound pick. This is a weird one, but I, like I said on the episode, I like it a lot, and Mousin' Around. Wow. I know. I like Mousin' Around. Taxi. Damn it. Okay, that's what I was planning on. That throws a wrench. Okay, so what did I already have? a whirlwind and i have uh f14 right is that what i said i would probably take radical then oh nice
    41:00
    because i think if i'm thinking realistically if i had to have like these three games desert island off this with yours you know picks taken into account that would be a fucking sick lineup yeah i feel like i could play for pretty much ever good good diversity in that lineup too i don't know man looking at the list when you see it just broken down it's like we've been talking about this for almost two hours now and it's like looking back at it it's just insane how many good games are in the system 11 era and i know it's kind of a trope at this point that it's like it's you know people don't talk about them enough or they don't respect them enough but really like
    41:35
    people don't talk about these games and respect them enough they're fucking good i think a lot of these games i like you guys i mean i don't know if i've brought it up on the show that much but I'm just not that drawn to the Bally Williams DMD games like other people are yeah it's weird they're good like I think they're there's like some of the best games of all time in there but a lot of people are like that's it that's the gold standard and for me a lot of these system 11 games beat out a lot of DMD games I'm like these are fucking good games it was the bridge era it was they tried out a lot of things that they ended up keeping they tried out a lot of things that they
    42:08
    ended up dumping like that you get ball saves that sticks around right you get the diagnostics that sticks around the progressive jackpots drop off off the center ramps drop off python drops off like all these all these things that kind of define the era so it's like a weird alchemy it was a witch's brew of ideas happening i do want to point out for the listeners that's screaming right now how could all three of you guys not choose pinbot oh that's it's pretty wild
    42:39
    Pinball's maybe an oversight. Great game. I don't know. Lots of really fun games. Some mid-games. Now, we each all have to say, I'm going to put you both on the spot. You have to say your least favorite of the System 11 games. Least favorite. I would probably say, well, okay, I'm removing Bugs Bunny from the consideration because that doesn't really feel like a normal pinball machine. If that counts, I would say that. But I'd say my other one would probably be Jokers. I just don't care for it. Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. I'll pick something different.
    43:10
    Sick of it. What do I walk away from? That's what I was trying to say. Because there's so many of these games, like, I'd rather pay a dollar to play Grand Lizard than, you know, 25 cents to play Jokers. Yeah. Jokers catch lots of heat. You know, I'll take, you can have Jokers because I'll take Fire. That's one that I just do not care for. Oh, that's a surprise. I don't mind playing Fire, but yeah, Jokers. I don't love Jokers, but as you know, like, Road Kings for sure. road kings for sure yeah those are probably the weakest four i think well i'd say fire of were
    43:43
    my weakest four would be bugs bunny fire jokers and road kings we put police force up there i kind of had fun last time i played it but i also had fun last time i played road kings so that's all to say like none of these are that bad because i'm sure if i played jokers with someone that like knew what was going on i would love it and fire is one that i think if i wasn't so off put by the package and the theme and everything i think i'd like it a lot more no what's jarring is the noise on fire how loud it is jarring yeah but it's also an interesting game some people like it quite a bit yeah all of these games have fans in a lot of the games on here that i like quite a bit i'm sure
    44:15
    other people i know from the rankings that a lot of people dislike strongly yeah it's a weird transition period for pinball we hope you've enjoyed this second episode of the system 11 era go out and find some of these system 11 games wherever you're at and give them some plays run some coins through them let us know what you think feel free to add your own power rankings when this episode comes out, I'll be asking your opinions on our Instagram account. Feel free to share them. Send us an email at witchheadinfo at gmail.com. But until next time, good luck.
    44:45
    Don't suck. America's Monday! Let the games begin Rock, rock, rock and roll the game
    45:16
    You see, most blokes are going to be playing at ten You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up All the way up You're on ten on your guitar Where can you go from there? Where? I don't know Nowhere, exactly what we do is if we need that extra push over the cliff you know what we do? put it up to 11 exactly one louder why don't you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number and make that a little louder these go to 11