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Episode 2 - The Ritchie Brothers Steve vs. Mark

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·51m 49s·analyzed·Oct 30, 2023
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TL;DR

Wedgehead hosts defend Mark Ritchie's legacy while celebrating both Ritchie brothers' pinball design contributions.

Summary

Alan and Alex from Wedgehead Pinball in Portland discuss the legacies of Steve and Mark Ritchie, legendary pinball designers and brothers. They defend Mark against being overshadowed by his older brother Steve, highlighting Mark's iconic games (Fishtales, Taxi, Diner, Sorcerer) and design philosophy, while acknowledging Steve's revolutionary contributions (flow, multi-ball, upper flippers). The hosts also cover Mark's recent work on Pulp Fiction at Chicago Gaming Company and discuss both brothers' design signatures, personal anecdotes from meeting them, and their respective strengths and missteps.

Key Claims

  • Steve Ritchie is credited with introducing locks and lane change to pinball design

    high confidence · Alan and Alex discussing Firepower and Steve's design innovations; widely documented in pinball history

  • Mark Ritchie's first published game was Firepower 2, a sequel to Steve's Firepower

    high confidence · Alan: 'his first published game was Firepower 2, sequel to his brother's monster hit Firepower'

  • Mark Ritchie frequently collaborated with Python Anghelo on game design and art direction

    high confidence · Alex: 'Mark worked a lot with Python on a number of games from like Police Force to Big Guns to Fishtales to Taxi'

  • Steve Ritchie's first game was Superman (1978-1979), an Atari game

    medium confidence · Alex: 'i'm trying to think when his first atari game started coming out 78 79 it was Superman was it the first game'

  • Pulp Fiction is Mark Ritchie's first ramp-less game and was designed at the request of Quentin Tarantino

    high confidence · Alan: 'he started in the one ramp era, and this is the first time he got to make one... per quentin's request apparently is or demands is that they started with a modern game based on pulp fiction... and he was like that doesn't look like pinball to me'

  • AC/DC is credited with saving Stern Pinball, along with Lord of the Rings and Iron Man

    medium confidence · Alan: 'games that supposedly saved them were Lord of the Rings. And then later on Iron Man... ACDC, man... and then ACDC. Apparently.'

  • Mark Ritchie sang on the song in Riverboat Gambler despite not designing that game

    medium confidence · Alex: 'mark apparently sang the song on Riverboat Gambler he didn't design that game but he was working there'

  • Slash was Steve Ritchie's first game featuring a repeating upper flipper shot

    medium confidence · Alan: 'i think Slash was kind of the first one that you could actually do... unlike a Sea Witch right where it's like it has that loop but you can't repeat it'

Notable Quotes

  • “if you're gonna know one pinball designer it's steve if you're gonna talk about a significant figure in pinball that you know isn't Roger Sharpe it's gonna be steve”

    Alex @ early in episode — Establishes Steve Ritchie's iconic status in the pinball community

  • “Mark is sort of treated as like the little brother. He's the literal little brother of Steve, but also as far as like his respect and notoriety. But I think that Mark's made some fucking kick ass games.”

    Alan @ early segment — Core thesis of the episode: defending Mark against being overshadowed

  • “if they weren't brothers, it would be, you know, I'd still put Mark maybe on the Mount Rushmore. I'd have to really make a whole list of my top four. But he's definitely up there.”

    Alex @ early segment — Emphasizes Mark's independent merit as a legendary designer

  • “I'm not here for it like we're gonna end that on this podcast if you have a problem with mark ritchie fuck you like the man is a legend okay steve's a legend mark's a legend right”

    Alan @ early segment — Passionate defense of Mark Ritchie's legacy

  • “Steve is every bit the character that you've heard that he is... When we met Steve, the first time we saw Steve walking down the hall, my partner Rodney, he reaches up his hand and goes, high five, Steve. And Steve gives him a high five and then does a pratfall on the ground and then gets up and shouts to a room full of hundreds of people at the expo and goes, that guy hit me.”

    Alan @ mid-episode personal anecdote — Illustrates Steve's bombastic personality vs. Mark's stoic demeanor; reinforces their contrasting characters

  • “Mark, who we met there as well, he's like total opposite personality. deadpan kind of like a sam elliott type like handsome quiet like kind of that stoic cowboy... And I remember this woman walking up and goes, oh, can I get a photo with like you and your brother, like you and Steve? And Mark's just like, I can't stand that guy.”

    Alan @ mid-episode personal anecdote — Demonstrates Mark's cool, reserved personality and sibling dynamic with Steve

Entities

Steve RitchiepersonMark RitchiepersonPython AnghelopersonPat LawlorpersonAlanpersonAlexpersonRodneyperson

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Detailed discussion of Steve Ritchie's 'flow' philosophy (combos, ramp sequences, continuous action) contrasted with Pat Lawlor's 'stop and go' design approach; hosts explain this is a spectrum rather than binary

    high · Alex: 'games didn't really have ramps. They didn't really have shots that fed other shots... And so he sort of credited with creating flow and combos in games'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Steve Ritchie pioneered multi-level playfields, upper flippers, lane change mechanics, locks for multi-ball, and repeating upper loop shots; Mark Ritchie used crisscross ramps and collaborated with Python Anghelo

    high · Multiple references to Steve introducing locks (Firepower), lane change, multi-level playfields (Black Knight), and upper flipper placement as design innovations

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie recently moved to Jersey Jack Pinball; Mark Ritchie has been at Raw Thrills designing arcade games; both brothers have shifted companies

    high · Alan: 'We haven't seen Elton John, his first game from JJP yet'; Alex: 'Mark's been working at Raw Thrills for a while'

  • ?

    product_launch: Pulp Fiction by Mark Ritchie at Chicago Gaming Company announced 6 months prior to podcast; Elton John by Steve Ritchie at Jersey Jack Pinball unreleased but expected to be revealed at Chicago Expo

    high · Alan: 'It got announced six months ago'; 'We're recording this episode prior to the Chicago Expo. We haven't seen Elton John'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Recent online criticism of Steve Ritchie's newer Stern games; community sentiment that Steve is 'washed up' or his designs are 'derivative'; hosts push back strongly against this narrative

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.155

0:00
Hello, Welcome back to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. My name's Alan. I'm one of the owners of Wedgehead in Portland, Oregon. We're a pinball bar, and I'm joined by my co-host, the water boy, Alex. Say hi, Alex. Hey.
0:48
What are we talking about today? Oh, today we got a good one for week two. We're talking about the Ritchie Brothers, you know, the Gretzky's of pinball design. Twin Gretzky's, dude. Wayne, he had a brother. And I think the two of them hold the all-time combined family record for most goals scored in the NHL. Yeah. One of them scored. I think one of them won his brother. All of them. Yeah.
1:16
I love you bringing hockey into this. Yeah, I don't know why. Knowing nothing about hockey. um but yeah so we we are talking about the wayne gretzky's of pinball yeah these are a little more balanced yeah mark mark and steve mark and steve um i think everyone that's ever played pinball at all has probably heard the name steve richie at some point yeah if you've talked to anyone about pinball they're gonna name drop steve richie probably immediately it's the one if you're gonna know one pinball designer it's steve if you're gonna talk about a significant figure in pinball that you know isn't roger sharp it's gonna be steve uh he's just big figurehead for the hobby yeah he's called the king or the king of flow he is responsible for a complete change in the way pinball machines were designed developed uh he introduced a lot of things that we take for granted in modern pinball machines such as like locks like physical like the concept of locking a ball to get a multi-ball that's literally steve richie yeah pretty much everything that makes pinball fun steve can claim credit for or will claim credit will probably claim credit um yeah but we don't need to get into history too much because if you want to check that out i'd plug another podcast silver ball chronicles does a really good job of diving into a full history on both of the ritchie brothers we're going to give you kind of a little rundown today and just talk about our feelings on them some of their you know design characteristics stuff like that Yeah. So you probably heard of Steve. And if you're deep in this sickness, you've heard of Mark. Mark is sort of treated as like the little brother. He's the literal little brother of Steve, but also as far as like his respect and notoriety. But I think that Mark's made some fucking kick ass games. Yeah, he's one of, like, undeniably one of the best designers, I'd say, of all time on his own right, even if you remove Steve from the equation altogether. I agree. It's hard to discuss them and not compare them. Sure. But if they weren't brothers, it would be, you know, I'd still put Mark maybe on the Mount Rushmore. I'd have to really make a whole list of my top four. But he's definitely up there. Okay. He killed it across all eras. I guess he hasn't done too many he hasn't done modern games we'll kind of get into that um I look at I look at Mark a lot like another designer that we'll talk about later in a different episode but I think of him like a Dennis Nordman like a guy that's an awesome designer that gets sort of slept on yeah like they're sort of like uh disrespected like like there's a sign of disrespect when people talk about mark ritchie and i'm not here for it like we're gonna end that on this podcast if you have a problem with mark ritchie fuck you like the man is a legend okay steve's a legend mark's a legend right yeah i mean oh 100 yeah i'm just staying quiet because i don't yeah I'll get off my – yeah, I'm sorry. I'll put the baseball bat down. This is going to turn it on us, like gassing up Mark Ritchie for the next 30 minutes. But yes, the man made some very good games, some of my favorite games of all time. Okay, so we'll get into it. Like we're talking about Mark and I think some of his most famous games are games like Fishtails, Indiana Jones, The Pinball Adventure, Taxi, Diner, and one of my all time favorites, Sorcerer. Oh, yeah. And so, man, Sorcerer fucking rips. All those games are fucking great. I mean, his. Well, how do we. I don't know if we have any kind of structure here, but his first published game was Firepower 2, sequel to his brother's monster hit Firepower. Yeah, and Firepower is, that's the game that introduced locks. It also introduced lane change. Yeah, like like when you use a flipper button to change the lit lanes, like the thing we take for granted didn't used to exist. And Steve's like, well, that's dumb. And I think that kind of speaks to his design philosophy is he doesn't want anything boring. He doesn't want you to be sitting there watching the ball fall. Obviously, once you're in pinball for a while, you're you're never really that passive. You're kind of nudging the game constantly. You're always doing stuff. But I think that's a big thing for Steve's games is that they're a lot of fun, especially for their eras, for players of all skill levels. And that's a good example of the kind of philosophy he brought into that. Yeah. So a recap of Steve's best games or an abridged version because he has so many. High Speed 1 and 2. The first game that's credited with having a story is High Speed. and it's based on his own personal experiences of buying a sports car and driving really fucking fast and the cops chasing him and him running from what a story it is it's just great it's so steve too that's the thing is it's like i was uh rodsey and i my business partner the other half of Wedgehead, who you'll get on this podcast soon, we got to meet Steve and Mark at Texas Pinball Festival in 2019. So we got to meet both of them. But Steve is every bit the character that you've heard that he is. And if you haven't seen Steve, you should look up a picture of Steve. He always wears like a black turtleneck type of shirt, and he's got this crazy like mad scientist shock of like white hair or at least over the last like 10, 15 years. But he's bombastic. He's loud. He's very – I'll just – I'll tell these stories now. We got to meet both of them. When we met Steve, the first time we saw Steve walking down the hall, my partner Rhodes, he reaches up his hand and goes, high five, Steve. And Steve gives him a high five and then does a pratfall on the ground and then gets up and shouts to a room full of hundreds of people at the expo and goes, that guy hit me. That guy hit me. Did you see that? That guy hit me.

  • Steve Ritchie recently joined Jersey Jack Pinball and has an unreleased game called Elton John

    high confidence · Alan: 'We're recording this episode prior to the Chicago Expo. We haven't seen Elton John, his first game from JJP yet'

  • Mark Ritchie has been working at Raw Thrills for some time, designing arcade games

    high confidence · Alex: 'Mark's been working at Raw Thrills for a while, which makes those big like kind of arcade shooter games'

  • “he doesn't want anything boring. He doesn't want you to be sitting there watching the ball fall... I think that's a big thing for Steve's games is that they're a lot of fun, especially for their eras, for players of all skill levels.”

    Alex @ design philosophy segment — Explains Steve Ritchie's design philosophy: constant engagement and accessibility

  • “If you don't like any Steve Ritchie games, you're an idiot... i mean it's an insane opinion like i just be like really you don't like you don't like any of what are widely considered to be some of the best games of all time”

    Alan @ mid-episode assessment — Strong assertion of Steve's legendary status while acknowledging individual preferences

  • “you go back much further than that and it's kind of a little bit of a question mark... Slash is mid charitably it's mid... i never did flipper rebuild while i owned it i thought that's just how the flippers felt. And now I'm like, huh, maybe I should have taken a couple windings off.”

    Alex @ discussing older games — Acknowledges that older Steve games can feel dated or require proper maintenance; shows willingness to reassess

  • “I think it's funny because Mark Ritchie, his first published game, I know he had worked on some prior, but his first actual game that got produced was Firepower 2, which has a ramp. It's really early ramp era... This is his first game, as far as I can think of, without a ramp... So he started in the one ramp era, and this is the first time he got to make one.”

    Alan @ discussing Pulp Fiction — Highlights Mark's evolution as a designer across eras and the significance of Pulp Fiction as a ramp-free game

    • Quentin Tarantinoperson
    Roger Sharpeperson
    Wedgeheadorganization
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Chicago Gaming Companycompany
    Raw Thrillscompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Firepowergame
    Firepower 2game
    Pulp Fictiongame
    Elton Johngame
    AC/DCgame
    Black Knight seriesgame
    High Speedgame
    Slashgame
    Road Kingsgame
    Big Gunsgame

    medium · Alan: 'right now on the precipice of that being revealed, you're seeing tons of guys online talking about how he's washed up. His last few games have sucked... The fucking disrespect, man'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Interesting design contrast: Steve Ritchie made fun of symmetrical playfields early in his career; Mark Ritchie designed Big Guns, one of the most symmetrical possible playfields

    medium · Alex: 'Steve, I know, would make fun of symmetrical playfields when he first got into the hobby. So it's funny. His little brother just went and made one of the most symmetrical possible.'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Discussion of how older games (pre-1980s) feel dated to modern players but can still be fun; examples of Firepower (1981) still holding up well vs. Superman (1978-1979) feeling very floaty and less like Steve's later style

    medium · Alex: 'it's like you take a Firepower from is that 81... if you had Spooky reproduce a Firepower i would go buy one'

  • ?

    product_concern: Hosts note that game quality is heavily dependent on proper setup and maintenance; examples include Slash needing flipper rebuilds and Big Guns needing proper pitch/configuration to play well

    high · Alex discussing Slash: 'i never did flipper rebuild while i owned it i thought that's just how the flippers felt. And now I'm like, huh, maybe I should have taken a couple windings off'

  • ?

    community_signal: Hosts express concern about being perceived as unreasonable fanboys; acknowledge need to balance enthusiasm with critical assessment to avoid being seen as stalkers or obsessive fans

    medium · Alan: 'We can't just be raving fanboys... We're not just here to dick ride... They're going to be like, I got weird stalkers'

  • ?

    business_signal: AC/DC mentioned as successful commercial title that supposedly saved Stern Pinball; Lord of the Rings and Iron Man also credited with saving the company; Slash sold approximately 20,000 units

    medium · Alan: 'games that supposedly saved them were Lord of the Rings. And then later on Iron Man... ACDC'; 'it sold like 20 000 units it must have just blown everyone's fucking minds'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Pulp Fiction design approach: Quentin Tarantino requested a ramp-less game that looks like classic pinball rather than modern multi-mode game; represents reverse engineering of classic design philosophy for licensed property

    high · Alan: 'per quentin's request apparently is or demands is that they started with a modern game based on pulp fiction... and he was like that doesn't look like pinball to me'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Slash machines are abundant and easy to find on secondary market because high production run; Road Kings and other less desirable titles from that era frequently available for purchase

    medium · Alan: 'because they made a million of them... You could always be able to buy one'

    • 8:38
    And that's Steve. Like that. That's great. But I heard himself on a documentary call himself a mad scientist in a toy factory. And I think that sums up his personality and his philosophy. And then Mark, who we met there as well, he's like total opposite personality. deadpan kind of like a sam elliott type like handsome quiet like kind of that stoic cowboy just always comes across so cool he's the coolest i've never met either of these guys in real life but just from videos and interviews and stuff he just always comes across very calm and collected and just cool yeah and they were seated next or they were seated next to each other at an autograph table right so people can bring their back glasses and whatever and have people sign And I remember this woman walking up and goes, oh, can I get a photo with like you and your brother, like you and Steve? And Mark's just like, I can't stand that guy. You know, and it's like they have that sibling relationship that you would expect. And it's very funny. They're almost like their own comedy duo. But Mark's super cool. we gave him a t-shirt we talked about kurt russell movies which is another passion of mine and he just started quoting lines from tombstone and i was like this fucking rules i'm just talking about tombstone with mark ritchie like you're like this guy made firepower too he made firepower too but uh okay we're getting out of order here i guess but steve's games that you may know are high speed one and two which is number two is one of my favorite games of all time getaway um the whole black knight series so black knight black knight 2000 and the best one sort of rage uh those games are famous uh for having kick-ass music yeah also introducing multi-level play fields to pinball that's it yeah the first double level play field which then everyone copied oh there's a whole there's a whole era right after black knight came out almost all of them are bad that's not true that's that's really not true but flash gordon's good yeah but so many of them are black knight one right out of the gate did it a lot better than a lot of guys that had a lot more time yeah it's kind of funny like but that's because steve's the king yeah he knows what's good he knows what you want before you want it yeah uh other games terminator 2 uh star trek next generation and so many of these are in the top five best-selling i mean t2 firepower flash which i noticed you omitted earlier all of those are like some of the best-selling games of all time the guy dominated him and pat lawler who i'm sure we'll talk about at some point really just dominate the charts we'll talk about we'll definitely talk about pat in a future episode he made nascar of course oh i admitted flash for a reason we'll get to that but he also made star trek next gen stern trek spider-man uh firepower and a game that you own no fear oh yeah which is the sickest it's like if you condensed him into one singular game it would be no fear he is no fear like yeah like he loves riding motorcycles driving fast cars i mean he is he voices the flaming skull that yells at you the entire time you play it he's also a voice in mortal combat yeah yeah that's something i'm pretty sure i don't know him and mark they both voice characters in each other's games often there's a lot of overlap yeah i have it i have a tidbit of mark ritchie that maybe not everyone knows that i thought was interesting when i was researching this Steve is well known for his voiceover work is hyper macho uh voiceover growls but as you said mark was also because that was back in the day where they like we need some call outs for these games who's here like like it's just people that work there it's how gottlieb did their art during the premiere era yes i love that type of shit um yeah so mark apparently fun tidbit a mark apparently sang the song on riverboat gambling he didn't design that game but he was working there and i would love to hear the full story so if i get to see mark again i'm gonna ask him about it be like hey yeah i really loved your work in uh riverboat gambler singing that song good yeah have him sign that translate um that's great yeah so we're talking about mark and steve but they each despite being brothers like they each do have their own style yeah and i think that's kind of part of what hurts mark's reputation right like we were talking about beforehand and why we both feel the need to defend him constantly is because i think a lot of people will just dismiss him as a knockoff steve or whatever a poor man steve and that's not the case at all his games have their own flavor they're i mean some like i've said many times already some of the my favorite games of all time and yeah they definitely each have their own kind of uh i don't know what you'd say like tropes for designs the recurring things sure yeah they're they're trademarks yeah there's a better yes Signature design pieces that you see across their games. Yeah, I would say Mark likes to do crisscross ramps. Like that's like maybe the most obvious. And he doesn't do it on all of his games, but like he has it on Taxi. He has it on Fishtails.
    15:02
    Wait, Indiana Jones doesn't have crisscross ramps. No, but it's like he does it famously in a couple games. And then it becomes like, oh, that's his thing. Well, I mean, big guns, they kind of crisscross. You know, there's not ramps crisscrossing, but balls crisscrossing. That's true.
    15:21
    The game, sit game. Yeah. And that brings up the other, that brings up the other thing that I think Mark is well known for. And that's like collaborating with Python. Yeah. So Mark worked a lot with Python on a number of games from like Police Force to Big Guns to Fish Tales to Taxi.
    15:49
    And so they had a close working relationship. Slow down. You're making the assumption that people know who Python is. Python Angelo is an insane artist or was. He's a late artist that worked at Bally Williams. Renaissance Man. Yeah, and he came up with a lot of designs. He did artwork himself, and he was the art director for a lot of those games. So even if he didn't actually do the art, he was kind of behind the themes and stuff for a lot of those. From the stories that I hear, and he's no longer with us, but he's like – he's an idea man. He's a Willy Wonka of pinball, right? like fucking crazy and every story you hear it sounds i mean he sounds great but he really does sound like a madman and a lot of the stories that yes so i think it's funny when you know uh when you know mark is this kind of reserved stoic kind of cool dude and then you hear of this lunatic and python and how they worked on so many games together right i can't imagine like steve's not letting python tell him shit right right like and i think that's what makes some of the mark i mean that might be what makes some of those games so good is that he wasn't afraid for it to be a collaborative process yes it's kind of like i'm we'll get into barry ausler at another time but i think barry ausler was the king of that of taking other people's inputs and ideas and making kick-ass layouts to match them and mark did that good too yeah i i did yeah i do think that yeah And then I think the design hallmarks of Steve are the term flow or a flow game. Like games didn't have – they didn't really have ramps. They didn't really have shots that fed other shots so that you can hit one shot, then another shot, then another shot. And so he sort of credited with creating flow and combos in games. And so he's termed the king of flow. His games, not all of them, but most of them have a really good flow. Yes. Like their flow games. You'll hear people talk about a game being Steve gets compared a lot to Pat Lawler. And Pat has a what they deem a stop and go play style where you hit the ball somewhere. It stops the ball. It does something. Yep. Pops out somewhere else. You're constantly picking individual shots off. Yes. Tough shots of Pat. Yeah. And then Steve is sort of usually portrayed as the opposite of that. Now, it's obviously a spectrum. Every game has some flow and some stop and go.
    18:48
    But when people think of a flow game, they think of Steve Ritchie. and usually pat is the foil to that like that people are like well what do you mean by flow game and you're like well you know have you ever played twilight zone yeah that's not a flow game right like right and you go have you played you know getaway like exactly it's like you're like that's those are the different but i don't think that mark's games feel like steve richie games no i don't think they do i think they think they're definitely i mean they're still flowy there's still a lot of like fast moving action and a lot of those games that i think of have hurry ups and combos and stuff emphasized in them but they definitely don't feel the same i'm trying to think right now about mark richie games if there's any with upper flippers outside of like big guns um he doesn't really do like three because that's one big thing i think of with steve is the repeating upper loop shots i can't see other thing over what do you call that yeah the picard maneuver yeah it existed long before that but that's what everybody calls it i feel like on a lot of the shots well i think i think he put that flipper there in high speed yep and that was the first where and that's another thing that steve did before anyone else is like where people normally put an upper flipper now like if you see a three flipper game that's steve yeah it's he put he's well i mean flash i know i know uh that there was other ems or something there's been something prior to flash with a repeating upper flipper shot but i think flash was kind of the first one that you could actually do yeah like when you play a flash that's that upright you can rip that upper loop multiple times in a row unlike a sea witch right where it's like it has that loop but you can't repeat it yeah but see which was also two years later yeah yeah everyone's a copycat on steve yeah so that's easy to take his stuff for granted when you look at it because everyone else takes from steve yeah so um yeah i mean steve's the legend i think that I think it's safe to say that we love both of them. I think we're both – I think you and I are both Richie guys. Yes. And I mean Richie meaning Mark and Steve. I like them both. I think we're both really eager to jump to defend Mark because we feel like he's kind of the underdog or underrepresented. But I love Steve's games just as much.
    21:28
    I feel like there's a little bit of a tie or I'm just feeling spicy. But like I do feel like with new players, like people that have got into it in the last few years, maybe the last five years or so, the pinball hobby, I think that there is a permeation of the idea that Steve is old or his designs are derivative of himself. Big time. I mean, we're recording this episode prior to the Chicago Expos. We haven't seen Elton John, his first game from JJP yet. But right now on the precipice of that being revealed, you're seeing tons of guys online talking about how he's washed up. His last few games have sucked. All this stuff. People are really quick to say Steve's done. And I just firmly disagree. The fucking disrespect, man. It's like, how dare you? Like, fuck that. I can't, like, those people, I look at it as like, listen, everyone has a right to like or dislike games and certain games speak to certain people. I think that's the beauty of pinball. Like we're all, we all like different things, but, and I think it's okay to point to some Steve Ritchie games and be like, eh, I don't, I don't really like this one. Or maybe this one, some people like, but I don't. If you don't like any Steve Ritchie games, you're an idiot. like i mean it's an insane opinion like i just be like really you don't like you don't like any of what are widely considered to be some of the best games of all time i think that it's that weird combination of he's been doing it for so long since like the 70s and he's still doing it so that's 50 years coming up on 50 years it is kind of nuts and so like yeah i'm trying to think when his first atari game started coming out 78 79 it was superman was it the first game which is fun i've never played that one doesn't feel like a steve ritchie at all it's a super wide body uh and it feels kind of floaty but it's good like it is it's good of its era it's just so funny how like a couple years later you start getting flash and firepower and you're like holy shit like this is a different fucking game it's the game has changed now like he has changed the game it's funny because it doesn't take very long for pinball to start feeling very modern to me as someone that didn't grow up with any of that era or whatever just got into it within the last five years really um and it's like you take a firepower from is that 81 i can't remember and yeah it's just that is still a killer game if you had spooky reproduce a firepower i would go buy one i think you're like it's a phenomenal game and it's still a lot of fun it still feels fast and frantic and it's awesome but i will say you go back much further than that and it's kind of a little bit of a question mark because i i owned a flash for a bit no yeah flash is okay so and maybe i still i feel like i maybe didn't give flash a good shot now because i've played ones that are set up better than mine since then and it made me think that maybe i was just mean to it flash is mid charitably it's mid i think at the time okay i mean it sold like 20 000 units it must have just blown everyone's fucking minds yeah i mean he is he's and i've seen people play it in turn that's the thing i've been watching like tournament streams of people playing flash and you're like okay when you get that thing set up mean and it's playing fast it just makes me think maybe mine just you know i never did flipper rebuild while i owned it i I thought that's just how the flippers felt. And now I'm like, huh, maybe I should have taken a couple windings off. Yeah Something I like to give that one another shot personally I sure I will because they pop up for sale Yeah because they made a million of them Right Right And it not it not firepower It not Black Knight It not the more desirable titles So you always be able to get one You could always be able to buy one um but this this segues nicely into we've been doing a good job of building up steve and mark and why we think they're the best but like anyone there are some games that the missteps aren't as good i think i think flash isn't very good like we said and i don't think that old guy's angry with that one there's some flash fanboys yeah you know what as as i would be happy to hear that because what i feel like i hear in recent years is people dogging on steve and that pisses me off so if you want to if you want to find me and be like you're wrong about flash leave steve alone i'm like you're right he deserves more respect like than what i gave you like i'll never argue that it is kind of funny because yeah as far as if you're talking worst games from each of them or which are i should say which are my least favorite because i'm sure there's something for everybody i really don't like steve's um early games for stern i would say world poker tour and elvis i'm just not there's not there they've both got cool features on them i'm sure if i I played them with a big fan, and someone could sell me on those games, I bet. But those are two that I would usually walk by. The game I will say that's decent is 24. Oh, 24 is pretty cool. It's a game that they only made a few hundred of. It's in the dark days of Stern.
    27:50
    But that game is fun. I agree, World Poker Tour, eh. I was playing Elvis a few months ago for the first time in a long time. And what's interesting about Elvis is how loaded that game was. That thing has so much shit going on. Like compared to what Stern puts in. Have you ever seen the flyer they put out for that? No. And it's like, Elvis, the king is back. Because it was, I think, Steve's first game for Stern. And so it was like the return of Richie, that king, obviously Elvis the king.
    28:24
    Yeah, that game, they put everything in it. I'd like to see the sales numbers for that. I wonder if it worked for them. I've heard that they've been on the brink a couple times in their history.
    28:36
    And the games that supposedly saved them were Lord of the Rings. And then later on ACDC. Or no. Then later on Iron Man. Yeah. And then ACDC. Apparently.
    28:51
    ACDC, man. We can talk about that. Yeah. What do you think about ACDC? I do not care for that band at all, but that game rips. And they made so many versions and runs and re-releases and everything. And you're like, it's good. And the reason why we keep getting old rock pins were because everyone's like, this game rips, dude. Yeah, we have ACDC to blame. So next time you're complaining about all the old rock band pins. If you're going to be mad at Steve for making such a damn good game. Exactly. If you're going to be mad at Steve for anything, be like, you brought in double level play fields and then people made a bunch of crappy ones. Right. Or you did an awesome old man band pin. Yeah, the dad rock. And now that's all we get. Like, and that's, I think, a fair assessment. I will say that Mark did was listed as a designer for one of the worst games I've ever played uh Road Kings have you ever played Road Kings I've never played a Road Kings I'm always curious about that one it's it's a center ramp right all day it's got like one center it's like the little u-turn center it's a little u-turn center ramp but then it has two feeds to either lane and so flip-flops it has that little like the dead divider thing that just changes every time a ball goes through it yep i've never played one it's not good uh it's got like a cool kind of like mad max like bootleg mad max theme it's like road rash yeah it's which is like a motorcycle guy with a fucking chain or whatever right it's a very boring game with nothing to do i think we're gonna have to find one of those to go play we'll play it i mean it's it's probably still pretty good but oh i see in our notes here that i wrote big game big guns and then you wrote big guns is sick big explain explain this just okay i played a big guns when i first got into the hobby um and it was kind of half working and i thought it was i was like this is the worst game ever It was one of those ones that stuck with me. I avoided actively because it was so bad when I played it. And I just played one recently that was actually playing really well. And I was like, this game's kind of sick. It's one of those ones you can sit up top because there's two flippers up top and you can kind of camp up there. It's a symmetrical play field. It's completely symmetrical. Real symmetrical. It's got four flippers, but everything's oriented in the exact – it's just a mirror. Yep, which is funny because Steve, I know, would make fun of symmetrical play fields when he first got into the hobby. So it's funny. His little brother just went and made one of the most symmetrical possible. Yeah. But it's got big guns, man. It shoots the balls. It's cool. It's got Python art.
    32:00
    It shoots balls into wire forms, which is absurd. I can't believe that doesn't rattle the whole game apart. That's true. Like the mechs like doing the thing in Big Guns is fun, but you can do that on one ball, right? Like it's not a – You can see the thing because without that thing, the game, there's not much to it. So it's like they couldn't hide that after – they couldn't make that too hard. Listen, I just put this on here because we can't just be raving fanboys. Yeah, you can't. We're not just here to dick ride. We're not going to be allowed. They're going to be like, I got weird stalkers. We're not going to be allowed to go to a pinball festival where Mark and Steve are there because, oh, here's those weirdos that just are in love with you guys.
    32:53
    They just made good games, man. It's not weird. They did. You touched on it briefly, but both of these guys recently moved companies. Or I think Mark's been working at Raw Thrills for a while, which makes those big like kind of arcade shooter games. The modern arcade games that actually make money for operators. Yeah. Like all of the big shooters. Yeah. I don't know if they really do redemption games, but I just associate them with like the big racing cabs and stuff like that. Yeah. And those big sit-in cabs, like whether it's Jurassic Park or like Aliens, you sit in, you have a big gun and you're just kind of like, Yeah, you just pump in quarters in as fast as you can because you die no matter what you do.
    33:38
    Yeah, so Mark's been there, and they recently designed Pulp Fiction, which I'm guessing everybody that would listen to this podcast is aware of. Has heard of, yeah. Yeah. It's sick. It got announced six months ago, and yeah, we're obviously, as fans of classic solid states, we're both very hyped on that one. Dude. I think it's funny because Mark Ritchie, his first published game, I know he had worked on some prior, but his first actual game that got produced was Firepower 2, which has a ramp. It's really early ramp era, but it has a ramp prominently featured in it. This is his first game, as far as I can think of, without a ramp.
    34:20
    You're thinking, Sorcerer's got a ramp for a ball walk, right? Sorcerer has one ramp. It's that era of the one ramp. So he started in the one ramp era, and this is the first time he got to make one. And so it's the first time he has like a cute cabinet. Like it looks good. The whole thing is good, and I think he killed it. So you got to play one of these. You went up to the Northwest Pinball Show. Yes, Northwest Pinball and Arcade Show in Tacoma, Seattle area. And you had to wait in line. Yeah. But you played it. I haven't played it yet. We have one on order. it will be at Wedgehead when they ship. But give me your opinions on the gameplay.
    35:01
    It's cool. It's very straightforward. It feels like a solid state. There's some cool stuff going on that you wouldn't expect to see in a game actually from the era. It's kind of emulating. There's a magnet that grabs the ball and throws it around, and it's got little lock shots that shoot into a Vuk and actually lock. you know it's i don't think it has physical locks but it's cool how it does it it hides the ball behind the apron and stuff um or not behind the apron behind the back wall whatever you call it it's it's a cool game uh the ones we played at the show i think it's kind of the downfall of a lot of show games were set up very friendly sure and so that kind of skewed my perception so it was like huh these are some long ball times for what i was expecting but it also has a center post installed from the factory and i know you can remove that um and it comes with a little cap and everything it's meant to be removed if you want so i'm like i think with a couple little tweaks or once you just have it an actual pitch that you play it at i think that game is going to be awesome i'm very excited for you guys to get your copy yeah i think it's cool because it's for anyone that hasn't seen pictures of it you know google it you'll see what what i think is cool is they they per quentin's request apparently is or demands is that they started with a modern game based on pulp fiction he's you know with like ramps and modes and um and he was like that doesn't look like pinball to me and they're like well this is what people and he's just like no like right i want a game like that and started showing them old solid state games which is like time appropriate for the theme so they really went out of their way like the coin door looks like an old bally coin door um the the package oh they did a phenomenal job like the art package it's really slick it's got alphanumeric displays no dmd or anything and they've got these like cool animations on the displays it works really well and it's kind of like hey every other company why didn't you do something like this because it had a very positive else do this yeah well stern tried that's another that's another episode touch on that later um i have a lot of thoughts about that um but yeah fiction's cool and then as far as upcoming games for steve like i mentioned earlier were right on the precipice of uh elton john being unveiled they've been teasing it they kind of confirmed it was elton john and that's going to be tomorrow so this is the last time we'll talk without having seen it actually yeah we're recording right before we see it yeah great time to record this yeah but we weren't going to get to play it anyway so it's kind of like we're looking at pictures right um but uh yeah he recently jumped ship a long time Stern employee went over to Jersey Jack pinball, and the confirmed rumor at this point is that it's Elton John. How do you feel about that? About the theme? Yeah, everything, like him being at Jersey Jack, the theme. I am optimistic that Steve will kind of remedy the issues I have with Jersey Jack games. And I say this as someone that owned a Hobbit and enjoyed it, and I see the merit for a lot of their games, but they're just not what I'm into lately.
    38:40
    And I really hoping that he can kind of make a JJP that feels right to me that actually shoots and feels how I want a pinball machine to feel And that hard for me to describe and it kind of a cop because everyone will be like what are you talking about But I just hopeful that Steve kind of brings that because his games one thing they do is they always feel good He has never made a game that feels bad. And so I'm hopeful. As far as the theme, I don't really give two shits about Elton John, but I don't really care about most of the bands that have had pins made. And I think it'll be cool to have, like, I don't know, What's that? Saturday night's all right for fighting. You know, that's a good song. I can imagine that in a pinball machine. There's some Elton John bang. I like, okay. So I like Elton John. Okay. Like, I think he's a fucking, I like him as a person. No, I just don't know his music. His music. Listen to goodbye. Yellow brick road. That's what that Saturday night's all right. Right. Is that on there? And it's a double album. It's, it's dope. He's got other albums like brown dirt cowboy and he's, unequivocally a legend i do like his music it's not something that i listen to all the time that i grew up on in my pain my parents are from they they're kids of the 70s so like yeah like i grew up with elton john being on in the house i enjoy elton john i don't typically enjoy band themes right because i don't think that the story like not that i'm a big guy because it's like i love i love ems i i fucking love ems we called the bar wedge head right like we love ems i love solid states but if we're playing a modern game that has like modes and and and and features and things that you're building towards it's like i i like a game to i want to know what you're doing yeah so it's like in acdc what you're sick of going on tours with dad rock fans it's like every rock band it's like let's go on tour boys collect the band members collect the drumsticks change change the jukebox to a different like it just gets goofy dude like well see Foo Fighters kind of just ignored the band. And I think it worked well. You can have problems. You can have complaints about the execution or whatever. I know you don't like the voices and stuff. But I think it worked really well. Throw me under the bus here. Give him my hot takes away on a game that everyone loves.
    41:24
    You know what Alan says. This guy hates Foo Fighters. I do not hate Foo Fighters. but all I'm saying is that's a really good example of like what to do with a band license in my opinion and some bands lend themselves to that better than others some bands like Iron Maiden kind of comes with that with that you know it has on its own iconic characters I think that was smart and that worked the way they did Iron Maiden was smart yeah because it doesn't feel it's not just playing concert footage and yeah some people like that but the people that like that are people that were going to be fans of the band pin no matter what sure they're like the guys of the band the people that love jjp's guns and roses are huge guns and roses fans and you're like well duh they like it it's just plain footage of the band they like yeah what the band theme needs to do is appeal to people that don't care about guns and roses or whatever and so i'll be curious with elton john because steve kind of like we talked about with getaway was like a story guy yeah he lost some of that with some of his stern pins i don't think it's necessarily his control i'll just be curious to see what he does i'm excited for it i think that he's he's famous because of acdc so we get all these band pins now it can be attributed to him and acdc is a great game like but there's not the story and again it pinball doesn't need a story but i like needs to feel cohesive for me too yes like you play like we're playing grand prix we're gonna keep bringing that up because it's sitting right near us but we're playing grand prix and it's like it feels like you're a race car you're ripping through these orbits like it's a fast game like i don't know it it feels thematic you play big game that's another game sitting here and it feels like you're getting hunted by a tiger it feels like you're gonna die all the time it's the fastest wide body ever yeah and you're like get those that's why i like those games but even like like when you get to the modern like storytelling era it's like games like when you're playing whitewater you feel like you're rafting you feel like modern the modern storytelling area you start with a 30 year old game well i mean modern games are to me the modern era starts at at the dmd yeah or like system 11 where you have ramps and modes like when you have modes that's when it becomes modern right um but like you you go down you feel like you're riding rapids right like you're there if you're the ones that stick with us the most i feel like have good stories think about attack from mars you're defending cities on earth from martian invaders so good you get it right like yeah you those those games you understand what you're doing and even like black knight we're talking about fighting monsters you feel like you're fighting black knight and his minions like and i think with band themes you don't get that yeah like foo fighters does it different right because they're like here's this alien invasion angle and we're doing this kind of like scooby-doo shit yeah there's a lot going on in foo fighters to the point yeah almost to a fault i think it works but there's a lot going on like story-wise i will say that i prefer that though then no like even if i'm like this is a little too much like this is a little bit pasted on it's maybe a little too much i'm like thank god there's something going on here though because it's like versus i don't know metallica pick a different metallica song yeah i i hate that about and i love that game no that's another great game but it's there's just and it's maybe it's it's and i love metallica it's hard to judge metallica and acdc specifically because those were kind of the first two big two big ones in the modern era right totally and so it's it's easy to look back them again like we were talking with steve in general it's easy to look back at games and be like well they did this wrong or whatever and it's like at the time that was a novel idea totally but yeah we've seen enough of it we don't need another 10 years of band pins where you hit a ball into a jukebox and select a new song so absolutely be curious to see where i don't know i'm i'm curious about home john well i think that's uh i think that's about it that's just our feelings on the richie brothers huh yeah i mean we could talk all fucking night about the richie brothers but i think touch no fear dude no fear rips okay that's all we need to say about it that's all it needs to say that's a game that is usually crapped on because of its theme although alex here will tell you the theme's the best part the theme is the best part it's such a good game dude and i'm just blown away that other people don't like don't see that but i like we brought up i think if you lived through the peak 90s no fear cheese you're kind of like well this thing's dumb whatever but like i don't know to me it's just hilarious over the top and it's a great game yeah well i agree it is a great game if you get a chance to play no fear play it that jump ramp off the upper flipper is so the best yeah like it's the best like and that's steve being steve yeah like fast fucking punishing shot to shot like combo combo combo like so many hurry ups and like yes yeah that's all that he Every mode is like hurry up shots. Every mode rewards you for hitting stuff faster and faster and faster. And then you smoke a post and you die and then you press start again. Dude, we need to get off. We just need to play that shit right now. That's what we're going to do. What are we talking? All right. But do we need to have like a conclusion? We don't need to be like Mark versus Steve if you can win and have one's games. What do you think? If you had to pick one? Well, entire lineup versus entire lineup, Steve's obviously had more bangers. if i had to he's also made more games if i was gonna have two games exactly if i was gonna have like two games from each of them or whatever or if i could have two from one of them i mean i might go mark i don't know though what what games would you pick sorcerer and taxi i think i love both those games i think i would take fishtails and sorcerer yeah fishtails is so good too yeah if you're going steve what would you do uh man that's hard i do sort of this this this is gonna as much as i want to be like dude yeah unpopular opinion mark's actually way better than steve i'm honestly steve has probably made four machines that are in my top 15 games of all time right like i like like getaway sword of rage star trek next gen firepower those games to me are like the best that's about and and sorcerer's there too and fishtails is there too like but that's two to like four i'm just burnt out i've played a lot of fishtails lately so i'm burnt out on it sure but yeah they're both just phenomenal no anyway i think we ran a little bit long on this one but it's because we're passionate boys yeah um but we thank you all for listening uh this has been a fun little experiment and i think we'll record a few more of these for y'all uh until the next time go out and play some fucking pinball man go go on location put some put some money into a pinball machine the games play steve richie stuff yeah you know what prioritize playing some richie stuff yeah but you heard the episode go play them right like go play led zeppelin it's awesome you guys are all wrong about it yes alex and his lovely wife megan have some great wedding reception photos at wedgehead in front of led zeppelin yeah so now it's now you're always tied to that game exactly um i don't think it's that bad i love that thing yeah it shoots well yeah like it's cool it's the game's cool man he doesn't make bad games it's i i think so too like the thing about steve is even his lesser games i i they're all enjoyable they're all enjoyable in some way they're only not enjoyable because you're comparing him to his his heights right like you're like if you get caught up in like well this isn't as good as getaway or this isn't as good as spider-man or whatever then you're like okay but it's still fun right that's i think going to be a recurring theme of this podcast is pinball's pretty much always fun it should be it should you don't have to like everything but like i don't know it's all fun it can't be fun i think i think you can have a lot of fun alan's shaking his head right now i think you can have a lot of fun that is not the purpose of this podcast pinball is not all fun pinball's not fun it's serious dude okay you gotta treat it like a monk okay you can't just allow crap in because then you get crap out okay you gotta be a disciplined warrior like no uh i agree like i have i have a lot of fun playing bad games quote-unquote bad games which will be a yeah thing that we'll talk about in the future more about that um but thank you all for listening go out and play some pinball play some steve richie games play some mark richie games if you can find them and we're gonna go play a steve richie game right now all right thanks for listening till next time