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Flip N Out With Friends: Brian Eddy (Stern Pinball) Talks Design, Venom, Stranger Things, & MORE!

Flip n Out Pinball·video·59m 56s·analyzed·Oct 5, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Brian Eddy on pinball design philosophy, 22-year return, and recent/upcoming Stern titles.

Summary

Brian Eddy, legendary Stern Pinball designer, discusses his return to pinball after a 22-year absence, the design philosophy behind iconic games (Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, The Shadow, Stranger Things), and upcoming projects (Venom, The Mandalorian). He explains the role of accessibility, mechanical progression, and theme integration in creating engaging games for both casual and hardcore players.

Key Claims

  • Stranger Things Vault version includes redesigned ball lock mechanism and Demogorgon improvements for better reliability across different machines

    high confidence · Brian Eddy directly states updates to ball lock in back and Demogorgon tweaks in vault version

  • Projection mapping technology convergence (size, cost, brightness) made Stranger Things implementation possible; would not have been feasible 5-10 years prior

    high confidence · Brian Eddy explains technical timeline and feasibility constraints of projection tech

  • UV ink secret in Stranger Things was George Gomez's idea to delay announcement for surprise reveal

    high confidence · Brian Eddy directly attributes decision to George and confirms intentional surprise strategy

  • The Shadow was Brian Eddy's first official design role; originally had three additional features that were cut due to cost/design time constraints

    high confidence · Brian Eddy states 'my first actual design' for Shadow and mentions three things they couldn't afford

  • Brian Eddy did both programming and mechanical design on The Shadow, making it a 'hectic project'

    high confidence · Brian Eddy states 'I did the programming and the design on it'

  • Medieval Madness design success came from convergence of art, music/sound, accessible-yet-strategic playfield layout, humor, and theme novelty

    high confidence · Brian Eddy lists combination of factors and notes 'it all came together just right'

  • The Mandalorian game development happened as show aired; Disney withheld Season 2 details until episodes released, requiring rapid asset integration

    high confidence · Brian Eddy details Disney's tight information control and timeline pressures during development

  • The Mandalorian back glass included intentionally blank spaces reserved for characters not yet revealed in Season 2

    high confidence · Brian Eddy describes leaving composition gaps for unknown characters on Disney's guidance

Notable Quotes

  • “I've never stopped thinking about pinball. I always loved pinballs. They're one of the funnest things to create and design because you get to play with everything.”

    Brian Eddy@ 3:57 — Reveals mindset during 22-year absence; clarifies pinball remained central to his thinking despite career break

  • “The projection mapping stuff, I think, really came from a convergence of the technology and the size of projectors being in the price point of it all coming together at some point in time that made it possible. Like 10 years ago, you couldn't have done that.”

    Brian Eddy@ 5:22 — Explains technical feasibility window for Stranger Things innovation; addresses question of whether innovation was planned 22 years prior

  • “I still like that simplicity of make this shot three times. Here's this big thing you have to hit because everybody can understand it and they can jump up and have fun.”

    Brian Eddy@ 20:50 — Core design philosophy: accessibility as hook for casual players before depth/strategy

  • “It doesn't always happen, right? It's partly it's the team. It's all the people working on it and how they came together and how they worked on it. And that one, it just really flowed.”

    Brian Eddy@ 18:08 — Explains Medieval Madness success as team effort, not individual genius; emphasizes collaborative nature of game design

  • “Even in the artwork, like the back glasses, we saved spots for certain characters that we didn't know who or what they would be. But talking with Disney said you might want to save a couple of spots over there.”

    Brian Eddy@ 26:44 — Reveals Disney's active guidance in game development and constraints of real-time TV licensing

Entities

Brian EddypersonStern PinballcompanyStranger ThingsgameVenomgameThe MandaloriangameMedieval Madnessgame

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Joel Engelbert streaming Stranger Things extensively; Venom stream featured Dwight Sullivan audio/video participation; live design team engagement pattern

    medium · Joel: 'I had borrowed and streamed the heck out of it...Dwight...was on our first Venom stream...sharing that excitement'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Brian Eddy acknowledges modern pinball trend toward complexity may have sacrificed accessibility that defined his classic designs

    medium · Brian Eddy: 'I think over the years...games have gotten more complicated. They've gotten deeper. And to some degree, we've lost a little of that.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Brian Eddy's accessible design approach: simple primary goal (hit X three times) serves as casual player hook before revealing strategic depth

    high · Multiple games demonstrate this: 'just hit the castle', 'hit the guy in the mouth', Medieval Madness 3-hit destruction progression

  • ?

    licensing_signal: The Mandalorian real-time development during Season 2 airing required Disney approval of assets episode-by-episode; information compartmentalization extreme

    high · Brian Eddy: 'they wouldn't tell us either...they kept it really tight...didn't know what it was going to be until it actually aired...we had to go back and pick apart all those episodes'

  • $

    market_signal: George Gomez deliberately withheld UV ink feature announcement for surprise reveal weeks into Stranger Things release

    high · Brian Eddy: 'that was kind of George's idea to like not announce it right away so that would be a bit of a surprise...it did really surprise people'

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.180

0:00
All right. Hello, hello. My name is Joel Engelbert. This is Flippin' Out with Friends, episode three, if we want to give it an episode number, where I get to interview somebody in the pinball industry. And I'm super excited. Today we're interviewing Brian Eddy, the one, the only. And it's perfect timing because as of yesterday, Stranger Things was just re-released or they just did a vault version of it. So, Brian, you currently have like two games back to back on the line right now, Venom and now Stranger Things. So this is a perfect time to interview you. So thank you so much for being on here for this. Oh, awesome. Thanks for having me, Joe. Yeah. Well, yeah, we're just going to go with this and see where this conversation goes. So my first thought with Stranger Things was this is a vault. And I know typically with a vault, you have a chance to like readdress some things or look at some things. Are there any particular changes or fixes that you've made to the vault version of Stranger Things that was not in the original?
1:21
Yes, there are some changes. some updates to try to make it a little more predictable. The ball lock in the back being the main thing. I know a lot of people had trouble adjusting that to get it to work just right. So they've redesigned that area a little bit to help make that a little easier.
1:39
So hopefully that works on a large majority of machines without much tweaking. Sweet. Because, yeah, I know I had a pro that I borrowed and streamed the heck out of, and I loved it. I absolutely had a blast with it. And that was a pro that didn't have the UV kit. It was just a bare bones pro. And I had a blast. And then I remember when I went to return it to get a new game to stream for Zach, I played his LE. And actually experiencing Stranger Things with the projector, the UV light kit, the TK lock that was working. I mean, what an incredible experience. So it does bum me out when I go on location and see a premium that has the TK lock turned off. So I'm hoping that this is an opportunity for people to get games that that TK locks more reliable because it's really cool. Mac. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It should be more reliable. And the new version, they've also made some tweaks. I think the Demogorgon to try to make him a little more reliable. Oh, nice.

  • Dwight Sullivan contributed XP system and Beskar upgrade mechanics to The Mandalorian game

    high confidence · Joel mentions Dwight brought 'Beskar system and buying and upgrading your character'; Brian confirms first team-up with Dwight

  • Ramp diverters in The Shadow featured dual coils per diverter (4 total) providing player control over shot routing

    high confidence · Joel explains coil count and Brian confirms design intent for player choice

  • “They kept it really tight, but they give us little tidbits here and there. Like sometimes we get a couple of pieces of concept, but we didn't know what it was going to be until it actually aired.”

    Brian Eddy@ 26:22 — Illustrates extreme information compartmentalization in high-profile IP licensing; producers had to adapt code/assets in real-time

  • “I think over the years and lately as pinball has had this bigger resurgence is that games have gotten more complicated. They've gotten deeper. And to some degree, we've lost a little of that.”

    Brian Eddy@ 20:28 — Critical observation on modern pinball trend toward complexity; argues for balance between accessibility and depth

  • “You want to be able to give them a goal that they can achieve and that something cool happens, whether it's the spaceship getting blown up and tagged from Mars, or like you said, in medieval, which is a step further, there's a mechanical progression that you take.”

    Brian Eddy@ 19:59 — Exemplifies accessible goal-setting design principle across multiple game designs

    • Attack from Mars
    game
    The Shadowgame
    George Gomezperson
    Dwight Sullivanperson
    Ken Fedesnesperson
    Disneycompany
    Joel Engelbertperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Roll Cup Soccergame
  • ?

    community_signal: Brian Eddy first collaboration with Dwight Sullivan on The Mandalorian after 22-year absence; Dwight brought XP/Beskar system innovation

    high · Joel notes 'this is your first team up with Dwight' and Dwight's 'Beskar system and buying and upgrading your character'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stranger Things Premium includes projection + UV features; Pro is bare-bones; LE assumes premium features creating tiered experience value

    high · Joel compares Pro (no UV kit) vs LE (projector, UV, working TK lock) and notes 'experiencing Stranger Things with the projector, the UV light kit...incredible experience'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stranger Things Vault version addresses mechanical reliability issues (ball lock, Demogorgon) from original release

    high · Brian Eddy: 'some updates to try to make it a little more predictable. The ball lock in the back being the main thing. I know a lot of people had trouble adjusting that...they've redesigned that area'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: The Shadow initially dismissed/underappreciated for non-movie-based theme and complex layout, but has developed cult following over time

    medium · Joel: 'I did not realize Shadow was your first game...that is, when I think of Brian Eddy design, it's not the Shadow layout' but notes 'it seems to have this following, this cult following now'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Projection mapping represents technological convergence moment enabling pinball innovation; specific feasibility window of 5-10 years prior

    high · Brian Eddy explains convergence of projector size, cost, brightness; states 'Even five years ago, when the Stranger Things was made, you couldn't have done it'

    • 2:35
    So other than that, I think those are the two major areas that they just I think the rest of it worked pretty well as as is. There are some small updates like that along the way. Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm super excited that more people have a chance to get the game because that game, especially over COVID, was like super hot and people were trying to track it down. And the premium was almost the limited edition. It just seems like there weren't a ton out there or anybody that had them. They weren't selling them. So now the fact that people can get those, what an amazing immersive experience that game provides. And maybe that leads to my next question. And I do want to talk about your beginning of pinball, but I will say between medieval madness and stranger things, you had like 22 years, I think is the math, of no pinball.
    3:24
    So were there things during that time period that in your head you were like, if I ever get first, were you ever thinking about getting back into pinball? And if so, were there things that you saw and you thought like this would be cool to add to a pinball machine? Because to come right out of the gates with Stranger Things and have projection mapping and that UV printed ink, you know, like those are crazy. Those are completely unique things. Were those like stewing in your brain for years and years and years? Yeah, you know, after leaving pinball, I think it was like 98 was when Medieval came out. So I've never stopped thinking about pinball. I always loved pinballs. They're one of the funnest things to create and design because you get to play with everything. There's the whole play field, the physical layout, there's software, there's the artwork from the artists, and then there's all the video art, you know, which used to be dot back in the 90s. So they're just immensely fun creations to make, to pull people into this little world and entertain them. There's nothing like it, so I absolutely loved it, and I've never stopped thinking about it. So like projection mapping, though, was that something that you knew, whatever my first game is back at Stern, I want to try this? Or did it just happen to work out where like Stranger Things was such a unique theme that it worked for that? I mean, I know like, for example, like I know Keith Elwin, he said in Avengers, the the the in Godzilla, the Magna Grab. Apparently he was originally trying to get that in Avengers and it and it wasn't working. So he knew that was a mech that he wanted to bring into his next game. So that's what I'm trying to think. You have 22 years of time off from pinball. Did you were you like, here's my like, I'm ready. These are what I'm bringing to the table. Or it just happened that, oh, Stranger Things, let's figure this out. I was thinking about it for 20 years straight. 20 years. Actually, not at all.
    5:14
    But I did take tons of notes. I was always thinking little devices and I'd jot down files, hoping one day I'd go back to BimBot. But the projection mapping stuff, I think, really came from a convergence of the technology and the size of projectors. being in the price point of it all coming together at some point in time that made it possible. Like 10 years ago, you couldn't have done that. Even five years ago, when the strangest thing was made, you couldn't have done it. So it was that convergence of making a projector small enough, making it cost effective enough for the pinball machine and bright enough, right? All those little technical hurdles, it just was the right moment in time to give it a try. And it definitely was unique and pinball i wanted is something that was unique when i came out like you said after some years for sure game um and hopefully achieve that oh it's it's i've genuinely i i can own four games i have room for four games so to for a game to fit in my in my collection it's it's really it's got it's got to meet a lot of criteria or it's got to beat out a lot of other really good games but there's something about our stranger things premium that is so unique i mean it's just It is unlike any other pinball machine out there between, I mean, the projection mapping alone is such a unique and dynamic feature. And that's something that this would be a great segue into Venom, but I don't want to go like dynamic. Yeah, the fact that pinball, the complaint with a pinball machine is if it's the same thing every single time you play it, you know, it can get a little old. And so you want to have and that's where I think lighting or the expression lighting or different things that make the physical aspect of the machine feel different as the game changes game, you know, game state changes, I think are huge. And that's something Venom is doing incredibly well. But that's the way that I felt about Stranger Things, even just different modes and what the visual and the projections doing just changes the game's feeling all throughout it. And that's incredible. Yeah, that immersion is really important to me, is to make you feel like you're part of it, to take you different places as you're playing it. And like going in the upside down, right, with the UV kit, I think that gives it a feel of I really am somewhere different, doing something different. Yeah. And, you know, the combination of the UV ink and stuff to tie into all that, you know, we did a lot of testing to make sure that would work on all the different printing methods and stuff. So I think in the end, it is pretty shocking. Most people, the first time they see it, like, oh, wow. Right. What is that?
    7:53
    So let me ask about that. How in the world were those games made and out on location and nobody caught the UV ink? Like nobody caught it until I feel like it was like a few weeks later that you announced the UV light kits and people were, what? what are you talking about and it's right you know the fact that these are games that people have been playing and looking at and nobody know like nobody knew that i mean was that something from an internal standpoint that you guys were just kind of chuckling in the background like is somebody going to figure this out or yeah that was kind of george's idea to like not announce it right away so that would be a bit of a surprise yeah later that would come out and i think it did really surprise people i think it's just unexpected right people just wouldn't think there would be something else there so nobody even thought to put a uv light on it yeah so it's not too surprising that it wasn't caught yeah but it did definitely make a splash i think there was a little controversy at first with the pricing and and you know that it was an add-on and such but i think it really does add to the game oh 100 and i i mean i'll tell this anybody listening if you happen to get a stranger things whether it's you know an original version or one of the remakes like you gotta get the uv like it you have to get like it adds it's such a unique experience when that goes off in the game and it's yeah it makes the it makes the game feel completely different so i think it's it's awesome i mean those are two things the uv like it and the projection mapping are just so unique to that game that really just make it stand out from all other games yeah you know the projector is kind of interesting because every time there's something that radically different introduced in the pinball it usually takes a couple games too to where you can really utilize it to to even more advanced ways and i think if we did more games with it down the line or something you would we would definitely see more and different things that you could do with it oh for sure we did a lot of experimenting early on with things that we could do and the fact that well wait it looks like it can light the whole play field with a pattern and then we can put all these little billboards everywhere and it all can be animated and moving and we were continuously finding new ways to use it and i think if you started fresh knowing all that you you'd probably design even cooler things with it. Oh, for sure. Yeah, so let's take a step back. Let's take a step back to some of your lesser-known games, being Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars. Very – no. So two games – Nobody's heard of those games. Two games. You talk about something somebody's heard about? Yes. Those two games, I don't – I mean, I do. I understand why. But those games have been rated in the pin-side top five forever. ever. What's crazy to me, I actually looked this up because I have not owned either of those. I've played the heck out of them on location. One game I have owned of yours though is Shadow. I did not realize Shadow was your first game. Right. Yeah. And that, well, yes, because you did, you were involved in some of the software with previous games, but your first actual design is probably the craziest or the most unique when it comes to ball path and stuff of compared to the rest of your collection. So Shadow, you've been given the game. I mean, that is, when I think of Brian Eddy design, it's not the Shadow layout. I mean, that's a crazy layout. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Or when you were given Shadow, I mean, how did you end up there or getting that type of direction? Yeah, you know, after I finished programming the previous game, I really wanted to go into design. I had all these ideas, right, and things I wanted to put on a play field and Ken Fedesnes who was in charge of engineering at the time he he's the one who gave me the chance well sure go ahead see what you can do right and so I started drawing this was on paper we didn't have AutoCAD or computers to draw anything at the time so I started on paper I ended up on computer by the end of it but it started out on paper I had all these ideas you know tons of things you know being your first game sometimes you have too many ideas and yeah it's trying to weed those down into something that can fit on a game and cost-effective and all that. So there were three things on even Shadow that we couldn't afford to put on. Oh, wow. Almost all the way up to the end. Either design time or cost or various reasons, right, that they were pulled off.
    12:12
    But I look back on Shadow fondly. I mean, the movie didn't end up doing well. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny because I had listened to the radio shows before, So I knew what Shadow and Shadow from the 30s was. So I thought, well, you know, they're pushing it like Batman. It could be the next big thing.
    12:30
    But, you know, back then we would do a lot of games before the movie came out. Right. So we land hopefully making the game in production when the movie came out and get some of that promotion. We don't do that so much anymore. But that was a huge risk because so many of the movies that we did that with just weren't that great.
    12:50
    And Shadow was kind of that. It wasn't an absolutely horrible movie, but it wasn't a very good movie either. So it was a little disheartening on that side. But, you know, I still I think we captured the core of what that is, what Shadow is and what the movie is. And the snippets, the sound bites, the mechanisms of the game, I think still follow pretty true to that theme. Yeah.
    13:13
    You know, to me, I look back at the game and you're right. There's a lot of stuff on it. Sometimes I look back at past projects and look at them and say, how the hell did we do all that in that time?
    13:24
    That was that game. It was a new mechanical engineer at the time, too. I did the programming and the design on it. Oh, wow. I did both. And so it was a pretty hectic project.
    13:35
    But in the end, I think you look back and it's like, well, there's some cool things. There's unique things that we hadn't seen in the game before. And it seems to have this following, this cult following now, too. Shout out. I really enjoyed having it. And this was early when I got into pinball. So it was kind of a, I could only really own one game at a time. So it's, I, at that time I owned two and I owned roll cup soccer and I owned shadow. And I remember thinking to myself, roll cup soccer will be a game that my friends and family will really dive into because it's very easy to understand. But then shadow will be my game because that's, I know it's more challenging. I know it's a theme people don't really resonate with. I was wrong. I like people loved playing that game. They didn't know the thing. They don't care. One, the kids love the gun shooter knob. So instead of a shooter knob. So first, maybe that's a question. Is there any chance that will ever return, do you think, to modern pinball instead of having an actual plunger, some sort of gun or something like that? Because I think they're awesome. Yeah, I think they're fun, too. I mean, I'd never say never, right? Because who knows? Then stranger things have happened. Stranger things. Yeah, fun.
    14:39
    I know, like, Gary, he really likes to have the nostalgic point of pinball. It makes sense. You have a plunger and a pullback. It is a core of pinball. But we're definitely trying to push the bounds here and there. What's considered exactly a pinball. So I think maybe in the future we can see Yeah that fair They awesome until you run into them when you you know especially that one yes that solid it is but when i think a shadow um and what my friends and family loved was just getting up to the battlefield and they just because it was one of those things that it that's the only goal they had is like i want to get up there and then the fact that the way you programmed it was you're hitting certain targets and it's counting down and so they're trying to see how you know how low they can go that's an awesome upper play field But the thing to me as a pinball player, the thing that I absolutely adore in Shadow is the ramp diverters. I mean, I understand people talk about the people talk about coil count now, and it's each one of those diverters had two coils. So there's four coils right there in that game. But the snappiness of those ramp diverters is incredible. And I know, you know, Rush has a ramp diverter in it. I know Turtles had it, but it's nothing like the ramp diverters in Shadow. I mean, is that what are your thoughts on that? Is that something that you think you could ever bring back in a game? Yeah. Yeah, certainly. It could be brought back to me. I like it. I really wanted to do that because it gave players control. I can determine the shot where that flipper comes back, same flipper, the opposite flipper. So that allowed them to kind of plan out their shots to a bit and and just something like vengeance. It was only it was just completing the four shots. Right. But it felt great when you did it. You didn't do it all the time, not every game, but if you were having a decent game, you would do it, and it would feel good. Yeah. So I like it because of that reason. It gives the player choices. I completely agree, and I think that came back to something we had mentioned earlier of just anything that you can do in pinball to change the state of the game and make it feel a little different. You know, if I hit the ramp, and diverters are a huge answer to that. So I love that. I love that about Shadow. and after shadow you then made attack from hars and medieval madness and and the reason i want to bring those up is they're they're similar in some ways very different than others but i think that is where you like crack the code apparently of there's something about that layout where when you have a very entertaining mech in an easy to hit area and a nice fan layout and yet this understanding of you hit shots three times. It does this. I mean, I mean, we have a bar downtown and I've taken multiple people to it and there's 20 plus games there. And the game that people always remember, always remember is medieval madness. And it was number one on pin side a long time. What, as you, the designer, what is it that you think, what is it about medieval madness that you feel just so many people latch on to?
    17:45
    I just think it's a great combination of everything. It's great art from the art side. It's great music and sound, right? And the play field layout's accessible, but it has some tighter shots, too, to add variety in there. And just the theme and the humor of it, right? It's just, it was all those pieces coming together just right that I think made it, you know, as fun as it is. It doesn't always happen, right? It's partly it's the team. It's all the people working on it and how they came together and how they worked on it.
    18:16
    And that one, it just really flowed. I mean, it's got like Tina Fey in it. Right. It's just a little thing on top of it. Right. Before she was anybody. And that was really fun. But it was a lot of people's input to make it what it was. Sure. You know, we're all very passionate about it. It was a theme that hadn't been done in that way before. but yet familiar. The whole castles and destroying them.
    18:42
    And the trolls. And the trolls, right? It's all those classic themes that people kind of relate to, even though it's not a movie or something that somebody knows. They kind of know it, right? Growing up in history. When I think of a game that, for it to be added to my collection, I feel like it's almost like the elevator pitch. I need I need if one of my friends steps up to the game, I need that short and simple task to give them to do. That's going to hook them. Right. And that's what I think the medieval madness castle does so well, where if somebody walks up that they're like, what do I do? It's like just hit the castle. And it's just the fact that the drawbridge comes down, then the gate goes up and then they blow it up. I mean, that's that's all you have to tell the player to do. And that's, you know, going back to shadow. It's like hey hit this drop target dead center and you're gonna pop up there to the battlefield and try to keep the ball You know short and sweet and that's something that I see in your games That you do exceptionally well where it's what is what is something that can hook somebody the short and sweet little thing
    19:47
    Same thing with stranger things. It's like Hit the guy in the mouth, you know like that's you don't have to explain it So is that a design philosophy of yours? Like what's or how do you think through that when thinking of a new game? Yeah, definitely. You know, there's a lot of casual players out there, and especially when you're introducing new people to pinball. It's exactly what you said. You want to be able to give them a goal that they can achieve and that something cool happens, whether it's the spaceship getting blown up and tagged from Mars, or like you said, in medieval, which is a step further, there's a mechanical progression that you take. And you can see physically that I'm getting closer and closer than I blow up a castle. So that simplicity, I think, is really important in pinball. I think over the years and lately as pinball has had this bigger resurgence is that games have gotten more complicated. They've gotten deeper. And to some degree, we've lost a little of that. But we also have a more sophisticated player base whose social media talk to everybody else. Right. So the information spreads way differently than it did in the 90s. So you can have that, too. But I still like that simplicity of make this shot three times. Here's this big thing you have to hit because everybody can understand it and they can jump up and have fun. Now, I think we need to add more depth and more strategy to the games, which I love, too. But to have that initial key to suck people in, like you said, give them something they can do and they can achieve. They feel great. Then they want to do it again. So that's how I feel. So that's kind of my philosophy on designing is trying to make sure that anybody who walks up can do something and have fun. Because then if they keep coming back, they'll start learning. They'll start learning, oh, wait, if I do this and I do these three in a row, and then if I do this, right, they'll start learning some of the rules. And then that kind of pulls them farther and farther and hopefully gets them hooked and they have a great time. No, absolutely. And that's something that I think is funny where, like, if my sister-in-law played Medieval Madness, if I'd ask her, like, oh, how'd the game go? you know her response was always like i beat one castle all right or like oh last game i got through two castles you know no idea about her score no idea about any other multi-ball mo doesn't matter you know like that was and that's the game that you know i've asked people that have played all the different games my collection whatnot it's like hey what's the one game that you've had the most fun on or people will be like when are you going to get a medieval madness like that's the that's the game they want in the collection and um yeah there's something about that of just even stranger things when i had that explaining that game to friends and family and they see the progression on the inserts it's like you hit the same shot three times you're going to start a mode it's that simple right um maybe that's the things i know does really well on location out on roads yeah and i think that is part of it right because you get a lot of casual players versus having a game in your home having that depth and strategy so you can have an interesting game for a long time that you want to keep it but out on the street it's all casual players that just walk by and, you know, play. Obviously you get hardcore players out there too, but there's just a lot more casual players. Yeah. And if you can give them something that they can have fun with, you know, even if they're not a hardcore pinball person, they'll come back. Try it again. And it's exactly what you said. I see the same thing. People say, how many saucers or how many castles have you destroyed?
    23:08
    Yeah. Royal attack from Mars. You can get to that point where, you know, the Martians start jumping up and down and people, well, how did that happen? How do I see that again? You know, destroying the humor. That's something, that's another kind of criteria that I really like about certain pinball games is if, if it's, you know, bringing me joy, if it's making me laugh, you know, brightening my mood kind of thing. I, I really latch onto that. So attack from Mars does that incredibly well. Medieval madness does that incredibly well, but you know, fast forward to stranger things. I know when I was streaming that there were moments in that game that were some of the most, I don't know, satisfying or gratifying moments that I've had in pinball. And I know one thing I really like about the, the code of stranger things is what is it? Three modes. You get through three modes and you get, is it an extra ball? I think it's three modes is an extra ball. And then the fourth mode is the first total isolation. Right. And then it's like, it's almost like I could take it off in bite sizes or a bite size where it's like, okay, I got through three modes. I only have one more mode to go. And then boom, I'm in total isolation and that game gets so eerie and really honed in on that. And then you get through that and it's like, okay, I only have two more modes cause that'll be six. And then I'm at another extra ball and then you work a little harder and then you get to your eight and you get to the second one. And I, and I know the first time I got to, I got 11 out of the 12 modes done. So I got to one of the first mini wizard modes and what an elated feeling I had, you know, hitting that point. And it's just this journey of, I don't know, like feeling like I could work my way through, but it wasn't this overall daunting task. It was like, you know, just one little, little bit at a time. We're going to get through this. And yeah, that just that vibe of like happy go lucky kid games, you know, the arcade mode. And then all of a sudden, like total isolation, very just doom and like totally different feel, different place that you're in. Yeah. And I think obviously total isolation, total annihilation. That's not a coincidence. But I think that works. And it's extended, obviously. And strangely, it's a much deeper game than Attack from Mars.
    25:14
    So you have that little goal, like you said. To me, getting to the first one is awesome. So I want to get to the second one. And if you make it eventually to the second one, you're really close to getting to the final.
    25:26
    That's usually the last thing that people complete to get there. So let's move on then to your next game, which was Mando. and Mando what an amazing time that came out because it was I mean Mando Mandalorian was just coming out I mean that was you had mentioned earlier that you had certain games where you were building the game before the movie was out this wasn't that exact situation was you're building the game as the show is happening so you as a designer I'm assuming you're just adapting on the fly would be my guess yeah absolutely I mean that was a really fun project because like you said Mandalorian is probably one of the top shows if not the top show at the time it came out A lot of excitement over it. It was an awesome series. I think they did a great job on it. But when we started, they had just about finished season one. OK, so we didn't know what was going on for season two and they wouldn't tell us either. Even though they were filming it, they're doing it. They kept it really tight, but they give us little tidbits here and there. Like sometimes we get a couple of pieces of concept, but we didn't know what it was going to be until it actually aired. And then as each episode aired, we got access to the assets and such. But that was soon right soon after we went into production. Not long after that. So it was right up to the end. Even in the artwork, like the back glasses, we saved spots for certain characters that we didn't know who or what they would be. But talking with Disney said you might want to save a couple of spots over there. So we just kind of left, you know, did a composition and left the area open, expecting that there'd be some characters that we'd really want to add there.
    27:07
    But it was it was a bit of a challenge, but we kind of did that with everything. We did that with software, you know, knowing that, OK, we're going to save three of these modes or something because we know there's going to be cool stuff coming in season two. But we didn't know that until they aired. We didn't know what any of it was. So we had to go back and pick apart all those episodes, you know, not long before we launched the game. Yeah. And I know, I mean, like Luke is down on the slings. That didn't, I mean, that's what the final episode, I think, of season two. So obviously, yeah. But when you were given Mando, or I don't know, I don't know exactly how it works this turn. I don't know if you're given Mando or you chose Mando, but either way, this is your first team up with Dwight. And I'm a huge Dwight fan. I love Dwight's energy. I'm sorry to hear that, Joel.
    27:55
    Dwight is awesome. And I had him on our first Venom stream. He actually was on audio and video and just sharing that excitement of him walking through the game and the whole XP system and everything. But this is your first team up with Dwight, and he's brought in the Beskar system and buying and upgrading your character and all that, which is really unique. But when you sit down with Dwight and you're like, OK, Mando, you know, previously you had, boom, saucer, dead center. You destroy the saucer. Boom. Castle. You destroy castle. Demogorgon, obviously. Like what? There was no obvious thing like that for Mando. I mean, what were some of your first thoughts or, you know, how did you hit the ground running with the layout or the design of Mando? Yeah. You know, I think I didn't want to do Stranger Things again. Didn't want to do the big thing in the center. Right. Because there's been a number of games like that. Stranger Things was kind of an homage back to, you know, Medieval and Attack from Aras had been 20-some years. Some of those things I think people wanted to relive in a different form. I wanted to do something a little bit different, not like that same formula that we did in the past, but still give people something unique and cool like the moving mini playfield and such to play with.
    29:06
    Talking with Dwight at the beginning of that project, Dwight likes the depth of the strategy. I love that too, but I also realized right as we had just talked that there's a lot of casual players out there and they need stuff too so that's something we talk about a lot Dwight realizes that too but he really loves the strategy you know deep down geeky stuff too which is awesome because it gives a whole other layer to games especially when you have a game in your home and you can play the game for six months and still be learning new things about it I think that's awesome it's that balance that have to find of how do you keep it interesting for the long-term player buys ones I don't how do you keep it interesting to the casual player just walks by and you want to catch them and get them interested in one keep playing and that one of the biggest thing I think that changed about pinball since back in the 90s is that audience is super wide not only do we have like a huge amount of skill difference between players right we have people who just play once in a while in an arcade that need to be entertained and people want to be entertained for six months a year with unique stuff at home plus we have three different models right along the way so it's a much bigger world than it was before, which I find interesting, right? It keeps the job more exciting. We have to find that balance on how can we please everybody. But you never can completely, but, you know, that's what we try for. We try to give something for everybody. So Dwight and I will have tons of talks back and forth about that, making sure that let's keep this exciting. There has to be cool stuff for it so you just walk stuff to play. There has to be cool stuff that's long-term and has some strategy to it if people want to dig into that side. so just a lot of variety that hopefully all kind of comes together into something that works for most people yeah i don't i i don't envy that at all i think they're i think trying to find that balance is is near impossible where it's just you you have a certain game that certain really novice people are drawn to and it's normally because of ease or they they can you know like do whatever, like they can destroy a castle super easily. But then you have those, you know, tournament or high end players where they're like, okay, after you destroy the castle for the sixth time in the same game, like I want, you know, I want more than that. Yeah. And, and that I, like I said, I don't envy that trying to find that balance, which, which is probably near impossible, but I do think, I do think you're, you're doing a good job with it. So don't, don't like I, you and Dwight, I, especially Venom is, is its own animal. Um, but with Mando, So maybe this is a question. When I think of you and I think of mechs, you typically have a very unique mech. When you're designing, do you think of the mech first and then you're designing shots around it? Or are you designing shot paths with just open areas of like, I want the game to shoot this way, but then I'll figure out what goes in that spot later? How do you think that through? It's a little of both, but every designer does it differently on how they think about a game. I do tend to start with the mechs more often than not because they're a uniqueness to the game. Right. I always want people to come up to it and see something different or play something different that they haven't seen before in a different way that we use it in a different way. And so it's important to me that whatever those are, that they stand out in some way. Sure. Used in an interesting way on the play field. So I'll usually start there. I'm also a big flow guy, though, so I love flow, and Venom, I think, is extremely flowing. So I like shot patterns, and I try to put shot patterns like that, continuous patterns, in all my games. So it's kind of a balance between the two. You don't want to do the same thing over and over. You just don't want to have the same single match toying the center. So I think as you go on, I'm trying to stretch that into different directions. No, I totally understand. And I think when you talked about the code or Dwight code with Mando, one thing I really appreciated every time I had a pro that I was borrowing to stream. And one thing I loved was, first off, your use of inserts. Your use of inserts really communicate incredibly well. I know there's an LCD screen on the game. But me, the more that I play pinball, the more I actually appreciate inserts communicating where I'm at, what the progress is. you know I knew in Stranger Things you had the six things you had to accomplish and there's just something about seeing those fill up seeing your modes fill up and then Mando's the same thing you know kind of seeing the circle with three different things and working your way through it's that clicked with me I I loved it but I I really like that that it's like okay what do I want to focus on do I want to focus on encounters do I want to focus on the multi balls or um I'm trying to think of what the last one was but it's um the when you got up in the play field so it's like modes and then get up in the play field area or the multi and i just love being able to that's a very dwight thing you know which path you want to take for through this game because you're going to have to do it all eventually yeah right right and i think me and dwight working together because i you know i was on the software side for eight years or so too doing the same thing so it's really easy for us to talk through these things and understand you know what's important and what's accessible what's a little deeper what's the deep strategy that people can use like like the foundry Like when you first start playing the game, you don't have any idea about fundraising. You don't know what it does. But if you play the game for a while, you realize how advantageous it can be and how it can just stretch the game in another direction. And so I really like layers like that so that you can just jump in, make some fun shots, have a good time. Like I was saying before, then you start learning little things about it, different ways of scoring, different ways of playing. or like you said, well, encounters are harder for me, so I'm going to do the other two easy ones first or I'm going to try to get encounters done first because I know that's my gating factor. If I can get through them, I can get to the other two and get to the lizard mode.
    35:08
    Choices from a player standpoint, I think, and how you play really adds life and longevity to a game too because you'll try different strategies to get there. Oh, yeah. I totally agree. That, to me, a pinball machine gets very old very fast when there's one definitive, correct way to play it. You know, it's like, well, if you really want to beat the game, you kind of have to go this route. And I don't love that. I really like how a lot of the newer games even have challenge modes or modes that you can instead of playing the normal game, you can, you know, hey, I only have 10 minutes. I'm going to do this challenge mode instead. I'm going to do impossible play because I know, you know, I know it's it's it's not going to I'm not going to play as long. So I love that that variety. And maybe maybe we can finally use that as a segue into Venom. The variety that you have built into Venom is unlike any other game I've played. And it's clear that was your goal. But maybe let's go back to that. I know Dwight is a huge Venom fan. He said he's owned all the comics. He's all in on Venom. So you guys pick Venom. You guys sit down at the table with your notepads. What were some of the first things you wrote down when it came to the physical design of Venom? Well, I think the biggest thing, Dwight said that he wanted different hosts, which completely makes sense with Venom, right? He had done something similar in Turtles, but it really made sense in Venom because Venom has been in practically every superhero in the Marvel universe. At one point or another, there's a storyline with him as part of pretty much every character in the universe. So it completely made sense that you'd be able to choose your host. And I think that kind of set the stage for me thinking too, well, let's just keep going with that. Let's take it farther. Let's make the play field change too, depending on which host. and then let's make there be certain advantages to choosing one host over another different play styles and let the player choose on what they like and let them form a strategy and i think that worked out really well and it really does when you play the game you want to play the other characters and you want to try it you want to see how it feels and people do team sit some of what we've seen so far seem to settle in on one that they like over the other but as we've noticed that we've played it obviously a long time that preferences will change over time too depending on what you want to accomplish in the game or if you're competing against somebody like I'll always go for Eddie Brock if I'm competing against somebody because I know I can get a multi-ball easy and I can go and get some good points up front but we see people forming those different strategies which characters they do which ones they do first over second third and fourth. Yeah, there's a, um, so Zach was flipping out. He's been letting me borrow a pro. And as of yesterday, he actually swatched, swapped out the pro for a premium. So I have, I have actually put a significant amount of time on the pro. Um, I've already beat Noel three times. So I have, I have all my characters unlocked, but that's not because I'm this exceptional player. I'm far from that. It's, it's just, I put in the time, I put in the time and the XP system allowed me to work my way up to do that, to actually beat them. And I know Dwight's made some changes recently to Grendel and Noel to make them harder. So there is a chance that I might reset my stuff at some point and try again. But either way, I've put a lot of time on the Pro. And the Pro doesn't have the physical game changing states that the Premium and LE does. I do see there is an inverter in the back so it can change the orbit depending on what the orbit shot does. That's in the pro. But besides that, there is no physical game change state. So it really the pro, I think, really makes what Dwight did shine because it still felt different when I picked different hosts. But that was all software. It was all software differences. Still different shots to make. And so there's still strategy between them, too. For sure. And I found, you know, like Gwyndam, like her combo shots were easier for me to hit than other shots. So it's like, okay, I'm starting with her or, you know, you find your path to kind of work through or, okay, I'm about to do this. I want to change this character. And I love that. I love that strategy change. But now, I mean, I've only had this premium 24 hours. Now that this has the physical game states in it, it feels like a totally different animal. I mean, it's incredible. It really is incredible because of how different the game genuinely feels depending on who you are. And a shot that was in orbit on one character is now diverting into a Vuck and it's coming back. So one shot that used to be a quick horseshoe is now a lock shot. One shot that used to be a ramp that would quickly feed over to the left flipper now stops the ball and is kind of dangerous as it drops back down.
    39:58
    So where did you start on that? I'm assuming you had to have started with the mech in the middle, the ramp that moves around. Right, right. The original concept of that was similar but not quite the same. It was a big wheel. Oh, okay. That filled that whole space of the horseshoe and it would rotate into different shots So that's kind of where it started the same same concept right depending what character shows it would change the patterns based Are you saying like vertically like a or Ferris wheel or it's a horizontal rotation horizontal kind of like a Ferris wheel horizontal Okay Facing you real spokes facing you but it proved a little too difficult to make that happen because of leveling everything to the play field and such but it was a big piece right that really stood out which is what i wanted so i still wanted some grandiose movement so that when the player is selecting right they can see something yeah and i think we achieved that with the big 180 degree scoop as we call it that rotates and something that's more reliable and solid and easier to build. But that was there right from the beginning. And probably the first thing is wanting to change the shot patterns. That's probably one of the first things Dwight and I talked about from a play field standpoint. We talked a lot about, obviously, Venom and its history and its background. Sure. Different hosts and stuff. And then also what characters we could get from Marvel to use, which we were fortunate that we got a huge number of characters, like 21 or something characters in this game. That really kept it interesting to us. Yeah. So many allies and so many enemies that you're going up against and balanced all that out. And I think the balance is there really well between all of that to keep the game interesting for a long time. For sure. And that's something that I've been honest with Dwight because we've been kind of talking behind the scenes and I've been very serious. I've played Venom more in the last two weeks than any other game that Zach's drop off to let me play. And part of it was because, well, one of the main reasons was the XP system. It was the fact that every moment I was playing that game, I was only helping myself further down the road. So it seemed like there was no wasted time. Let me ask you, what did you think of the XP system? Because this is new. I was pumped. That's so I have, um, I do the triple drain pinball podcast is another podcast I do with two of my friends and those friends are Tom Graff and Travis Meary. Travis Meary and Tom Graff are both top 50 players in the world. Like they're insanely good at pinball. I am nowhere near that. So, so the podcast works out well because there is an interesting dynamic there. But when I look at a game, the reality is a player like Travis or a player like Tom, it doesn't matter what you do they're going to get to the wizard mode they're going to figure that out and they're going to be able to do that they're just going to be able to do that that's just their ability but what sucks is um you know i borrowed a game like rush i think rush is an amazing game but rush kicked my butt and i i would consider ray day a friend i think what ray and tim did with the code is exceptional but as as a player of my skill level i felt like i could only see the first 40% of the code. So here they are designing these amazing mini wizard modes, amazing wizard modes that I'm seeing my other friends enjoy. And here I am. And I'm like, well, until you make it a challenge mode, I'm not going to see it. So to me, when this XP system was introduced, I was like, I am in, I am in on that. I love that. I love the concept of that. Where what I am curious of, and this is something we'll all have to evaluate in whatever six, eight months is once these people have had these games in their home and because of the access to xp system it has allowed them to get essentially through the game is there still that draw to come back in and that's what i think you and dwight have thought about with the speed run aspect of it and what is it a cry the the ultimate clintar where that's kind of a holy cow good luck you You know, so I'm all in. I'm all in on it. Yeah, we put a lot of time in. That was a concept that we came up with early on that we wanted everybody to be able to get to the wizard mode. Now that we're connected and everybody could do it, we had to add the feature to Insider Connected 2 to be able to connect all that stuff. So it was a company wide thing, right, to make that happen. But that was exactly our goal. You're exactly the reason why we did it is that I can't get there either. Yeah, yeah. I can't get to the end mode either. So I wanted to be able to, and maybe it'll take me 100 games. Maybe it'll take me 500 games. I don't know. But knowing that I'll be able to get there was enticing. And then we allowed you to get there three times, right to unlock three different characters to keep that interesting and longer too And whether you at that skill level or whether you have kids in the house right and they may not be able to get to the wizard mode yet either it gives everybody an incentive to be able to keep playing and eventually I'll get there. All the games matter. Yes. That was important to us. And I think you nailed it on that front. And one thing I told Dwight, my brother, he streams with me as well on the Flippin' Out YouTube channel. We he's he's he's not novice, but he's not good I don't know what like he likes playing pinball, but he's learning he's getting a lot better and so we've streamed it now twice So we have roughly I don't know four hours of gameplay that my brother has in this He's only at level like 20 ish Okay, but yet he still hasn't beaten a minor villain right? But the fact that that is like he wants to keep playing and I'm excited to see him beat that minor villain because as soon as he does that, it'll save. And then he's only a few shots away from Grindle. And it's just in the first time the flippers are reversed on Jared. He loses that ball in Grindle. I mean, those are moments that just so many people would never experience without this type of system. Right. So in my opinion, I'm excited to see that. But I'm also I just think this this I hope this game does really well on location, because to me, it seems like it's the perfect game to always put a few games on every time you go on location because you're going to keep working yourself up. Right. Right. And that's definitely our hope is that, you know, people use it and they see where it can lead. We don't really know how it's going to work out in the end, right? We talked immensely about it and theorized about it and played in many different styles and had tons of people testing and stuff. But this is one of those features that really has to get out there to thousands of people before we really know where it's at and where do we go from there. So we're watching, definitely, seeing how people like it and what they do or don't like about it. Because both me and Dwight are big proponents of Insider Connected and using it as ways to expand pinball. and different ways of playing. And I think it does. It adds another level of depth for players. But we're also very keenly aware that the pinball's got to be fun on its own, too, even without Insight Night. There's still got to be goals. You still have to, for those players like your friends who can get to any Wizard Fund, you still have to be able to do it in a game. So we don't want to cut those people out and say, oh, you have to be Insight Night. It's the only way to play the game. That's not really its purpose either. If you're one of those great players, the one percenters, as I recall them, then that still has to be challenging within one game. That depth has to be there, right? You can't just get through it. It also can't be so hard that it's daunting, right? It's like, I'll never get close. It'll take me 10,000 games.
    47:47
    So finding that balance is something that we're watching. And I think we're close, but whether we're perfect or not, we'll make tweaks as we go to make it feel really good for everybody. Yeah, and once again, I don't envy that balance or trying to find that balance because I think you currently have things in the game that are kind of locked behind a certain point of progression, which is good for the XP players because we are going to get there. We're going to chip our way. And then all of a sudden now doors are open that weren't open there before. So I know like some of the hero combos, that whole thing, you have to have defeated a minor villain before you can achieve those. Or even some of the bigger battles, obviously you have to get to a certain point of those. but those are the things where I'm one thing I haven't played the game a ton is the starting from level one so what is a typical game for me what's that experience and what I've seen so far is normally a three ball game I might get to like level 15 ish so I think if I really focus there's a chance that I could get to Grindle in a normal game which is understood like for my skill level I'm okay with that I'm not expecting to be a null in a three ball game but the question there is what all am I going to be able to experience in that? And I know like toxic team up is another one that's kind of behind a few, you have to do a few things to get there. So that's what I'm curious of is finding that balance of, yeah, making a three ball game, a normal three ball game really fun for anybody, but also giving all those fun things for the people that are in for the long haul. They're going to put in a few hours for one speed run kind of thing. Yeah. It's a pretty daunting task, isn't it?
    49:26
    But yeah. So hopefully we came close. You know, as it goes on, I think we did. But, you know, it's really hard to tell until we get more time out there. For sure. And one thing I can't believe I haven't mentioned yet with Venom is the freaking fast locks. The fast locks are really awesome. They're really fun. How I mean, was that a thought? Was that out of necessity because of the path changing that you needed some sort of locking? or where did that thought come to be? It kind of evolved. Like I wanted stat blocks so that you could see the balls and that way you could return them fast, right? If we were able to hold balls in there, we could get them back faster. But I don't think we had any idea of how cool that would feel until Dwight first got it going. And there's something about it. It's like it's hard to describe to somebody, right, until they play about the ball just continuously in motion. and you'll be making a shot and there'll be a ball kicking out of the lockdown while it's moving into the lock up above. There's something about that feeling of that constant flow and energy that is kind of addicting. Yeah. And I think it worked out amazing. Well, Corey, he did the core software to manage all of that. Did an amazing job because the way it's set up, there's not discrete switches always for when a ball is somewhere to be able to do the fast kick out. But he's managed to keep track of everything and keep the game going without losing the balls. It's actually pretty incredible if you think about the amount of motion going on and all that. And it's still remembering things. You have to train your brain because you're focused on one ball down below, but then you see a ball moving up top. And that's because, oh, that was a ball I hit in the scoop and it's just refilling the canister. but it's not, you know, you're, you're seeing a ball on a, on a wire form. You're thinking that ball's about to get to my flipper. No, it's, it's, so it's, you, you gotta be able to ignore certain areas, but then there's other things. And I've described this before, but the scoop, you know, normally when you hit a scoop in pinball, it's to start a mode or to do something. So you hit a scoop and it's time to take a breath. Or you have a game like TNA where you hit a scoop and Scott has that design where it spits the ball back at you so fast, you gotta be ready to be defensive right this it's like you sink that scoop and without hesitation there's a ball at your flipper like it there's it's it doesn't it doesn't make any sense like it does not make any sense but it makes it feel not only satisfying to feel that type of thud of hitting the scoop but also it makes it feel flowy because the ball is already there to go to the next shot media returns yeah so it's and now and what I'm experiencing now with the premium is there's other shots like that. The right horseshoe shot on certain characters just goes to a Vuck instead of coming back at you. So it's a similar feeling. It's just, it's really, really unique and really enjoyable from a kinetic standpoint. So mechanically, hats off to you for figuring all that out. Yeah, and I think it's one of those games that people have to play and experience too. Because you really can't get that across in words as to what exactly that feels like until you play it and then you don't get it it's like oh yeah this is fast and furious and fun and to me that kind of goes along with venom right he's this big giant character and you see battles with him and stuff and how fast he moves and it changes forms and stuff it's it just it feels like it is venom oh yeah so to me it made sense i wanted a fast game i wanted a game that obviously flowed really well because i kind of think of venom as flow too with the goo and everything that he's formed of. So I think the mix really works well in that universe. Oh, for sure. And the fact that you've embraced the choose your host, change the game kind of thing is you've nailed that. And I think once again, I mentioned earlier, you know, for playing the pro, I think Dwight did an exceptional job of giving you that feeling from a software standpoint, but then the premium and LE takes a whole step further. And you're genuinely giving that feeling from a heart, like a mechanical standpoint of this game is a different game depending on who you are, which is a ton of fun.
    53:46
    Wait, my last thing that I want to mention, and I, I can't believe I forgot it earlier, but toppers, toppers weren't a thing before you started at Stern. I mean, it was, but it was, it wasn't. They were minor, right? They're usually plastics and lights and they weren't as big of a deal, but yeah, people really seem to like toppers. And to me, it's another cool thing to design so I love them too right sure so I try to do something interesting up there so if you put something up there it is something to look at something unique that adds to the game uh and I think on Mando we really stepped that up a few notches and not only visually is it really cool to look at but it also adds more things to the game too you know so we had to think of new things to add when we did the topper. Yeah, I know. Something more, you know, when they buy it. Well, Stranger Things, you had essentially the Infinity Mirror, which is a really unique look. That's another thing. Once again, if people are getting a remade or a vault Stranger Things, do yourself a favor and go ahead and grab a topper while you can. It really adds to the overall experience of that game. But Mando, yeah, Mando was a whole other level. whole nother level, putting a screen up there, you know, giving that holographic effect, just quite a unique experience. And it looks awesome. It genuinely looks awesome. I know Zach has one on his, so I've witnessed that. And Dwight, he made a comment in chat that the goal for Venom is apparently to go one step further or to, do you want to top the Mando topper?
    55:24
    That's a tall order. It is a tall order. I'm not sure we'll top it, but yeah, we have some interesting things planned. Awesome. It's, it's just the, the topper's just going to ooze goo down on the machine, depending on who you pick. I don't know. I don't know what you're going to do, but, um, I'm, I'm excited to see, I'm excited to see what that is, but yeah, that's, I mean, I, that was kind of a all in one, you know, history. Just, we, we rolled through a lot over the last almost hour. And, um, yeah, I really appreciate your time. I don't know. Is there anything else that you want to mention or, I mean, And you spent a few years now at Stern, you know, different than the old days. I mean, overall views on pinball now versus then. I don't know. Any other general thoughts that you have? Yeah. You know, pinball, I've been asked that a few times because it is. Well, the game itself, the physical game itself isn't that much different. Right. I think we have we have some new technology and we can employ some more toys in different ways. And we have the full display now in full color. But the core of the game is still there. It's still the same, which is awesome, right? Maintained all that. But one of the biggest things I think that's really changed is just social media and how it's connected to the pinball universe. Like back in the 90s, there was Pinball Expo. And that's about it at the time as far as shows and bringing pinball people together. But now there's a show almost every weekend across the United States somewhere that you could go to. The fact that pinball has connected so many people, it's just awesome. I think that helps it grow. friends bring in their friends and it's it's a social thing along with a competitive thing to yourself and with your friends it's a unique experience and i you know what i like to do is like we talk a lot about trying to make the games more accessible to to those new players and to me there's a lot more players out here who don't play than do play so i want to get all those people playing all right and having fun because we know how much fun it is and so anything that we can do that can kind of draw more players in on four.
    57:25
    Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I will tell you, you know, from experience, if you happen to see any of Brian's games on location, give them a shot. They're a ton of fun, especially Venom. This is a game, I've been streaming it, but I just, I'm trying my best to communicate what the game is. And it's a challenge just because of how unique it feels. And that's something, same thing with Stranger Things. There's people that stream Stranger Things and the UV light kit will never come over the right way on stream or the projection. You've really got to experience that in person. So do yourself a favor, you know, reach out to your local distributor, flipping out. It's obviously a great one to reach out to. And hopefully you guys can get on a list to, to buy a stranger things or buy a venom because they're just fun. There are a lot of, they're very, very fun games. So yeah, I'm super excited. Stranger things is coming back too. Yeah. Cause it's one of the games that we haven't vaulted and it's been a few years. So it's the one I'm probably asked the most about. Are they going to make more? Are they going to make more? So I finally say they're going to make some more. Well, I'm hoping like I hope more locations grab them because then it gives me more of a chance to play them. And I don't know, depending. I think I think Zach's already sold out of his allotment. So I don't know if I'm going to have a chance to stream one again because I'd love to. I'd absolutely love to. But well, yeah. Thank you so much, Ryan, for being on here. Keep doing what you're doing at Stern. I'm really enjoying it. I'm excited to see what's coming out next for you. Obviously, I know Topper hasn't been revealed or accessories for Venom haven't been revealed. And then just code. I know as of today, Dwight just released yesterday .92. So I'm excited to see what else is coming with Venom so we can play through that. But yeah, all I can really say is thank you. Thank you so much for being on here and doing this. That's awesome. Thanks for having me, Joel. I love talking. I'll talk about pinball forever if you keep me on. So anytime. Awesome. Well, if anybody's watching this on YouTube, well, you would be. If you're watching this on YouTube, feel free to thumbs up, comment, like, anything like that. Any question you think I should ask Brian that I didn't, whatever. I try to read all the comments and subscribe to the channel for more interviews. But, yeah, once again, Brian, thanks again. And are you going to be at Pinball Expo? I will be at Expo. Perfect. Well, if you see him, say hi, and I look forward to seeing you there as well. I believe we're doing a making of talk, a Venom, too, so come to that. Wonderful. So, yeah, if there's a question I didn't ask Brian in this interview. ask them there. It'll be perfect. Exactly. We love questions. Awesome. Well, once again, thank you very much. And yeah, we will talk again soon. All right. Great. See you soon.