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TOPCast 28: Adam Rhine

TOPCast - This Old Pinball·podcast_episode·1h 31m·analyzed·Apr 18, 2007
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Adam Rhine shares his journey as Williams' pioneering pinball dot matrix and 3D animation artist.

Summary

Adam Rhine, a pioneering dot matrix and 3D animation artist at Williams/Stern pinball, discusses his 26-game career creating graphics for iconic 1990s pinball machines (Attack from Mars, Medieval Madness, etc.) and Pinball 2000 titles. He details his transition from gaming/slot machine graphics to pinball, his mastery of archaic tools like Deluxe Animation, the steep learning curve of 3D modeling for Pinball 2000, and his freelance work on Pat Lawlor designs. He shares production insights, licensing challenges (Star Wars, Johnny Mnemonic), and the collaborative dynamics with programmers and designers.

Key Claims

  • Adam Rhine worked on 26 Williams/Valley pinball games total

    high confidence · Adam counted them this morning; he states 'this is the first time I've done this so all the games that I did work on that counted 26'

  • Adam was the first full-time digital artist hired by Williams gaming division (WMS Gaming)

    high confidence · Adam says 'So they decided to hire a full timer and I was the first one' when hired by WMS Gaming

  • Corvette was Adam's first pinball dot matrix game

    high confidence · Adam states 'Very first game was Corvette which is a George Gomez game'

  • Williams paid the most money ever for a pinball license when licensing Star Wars

    medium confidence · Adam says 'Williams paid the most money ever for that license. I'm not sure the exact dollar amount but we were told this was the most expensive pinball license in history'

  • ILM deliberately provided damaged/corrupted 3D models to prevent reverse engineering

    high confidence · Adam explains 'They purposefully ruin the models the 3d models they gave us damaged and corrupted models so that we would not reverse engineer what they do'

  • 19 people total had access to the Star Wars project's secure room with Lucasfilm materials

    high confidence · Adam states 'there were only 19 of us who had signed non disclosure agreements with Lucasfilm who were allowed in that in those rooms'

  • Adam purchased Deluxe Animation (released 1990) and still uses it today, last update was 1990

    high confidence · Adam says 'we're using actually to this day we're using Deluxe Animation which is by electronic arts. The last update of that software was 1990'

  • Adam has a Windows 95 computer with Deluxe Animation still in use for freelance dot work

    high confidence · Adam describes 'I have a win 95 computer in a very small room my condo and I turn off all the lights and I just I get into the dot groove'

Notable Quotes

  • “You guys are kind of like the important part that everybody forgets right.”

    Adam Rhine @ early — Reflects on how dot matrix/animation artists are often overlooked in game credits and recognition

  • “So simple it's difficult. There's a paradox. That you know how hard could 32 pixel high graphics be in three colors? Well sit down and try it.”

    Adam Rhine @ mid — Captures the core challenge of dot matrix animation art—extreme technical constraints creating artistic difficulty

  • “I have never seen any of these games. Huh okay”

    Adam Rhine @ late — Remarkable revelation that Adam never saw physical versions of games (Ripley's, Grand Prix, NASCAR) he created animations for when working freelance

  • “They purposefully ruin the models the 3d models they gave us damaged and corrupted models so that we would not reverse engineer what they do and help their competitors.”

    Adam Rhine @ mid-late — Insight into ILM/Lucasfilm's protective stance and the real-world challenges of licensing high-end content

  • “The dot learning curve was nothing compared to this.”

    Adam Rhine @ mid-late — Emphasizes the exponential difficulty jump from 2D dot matrix to 3D animation for Pinball 2000

  • “Brian was unique in that he definitely ran his teams as with the with the capital T as a team. He listened to everybody's input no matter who it was and if your ideas were any good it actually went in the game.”

    Adam Rhine @ late — Praise for Brian Eddy's design leadership and collaborative management style

  • “We had to Brian Morris and I had to find the exact scenes we had to replicate in dots and we had to watch it over and over make sure we had the graphics right.”

    Adam Rhine @ late — Illustrates the detailed reference work required for licensed game animation

Entities

Adam RhinepersonWilliams ElectronicscompanyWMS GamingcompanyData EastcompanyStern PinballcompanyBrian EddypersonScott FlowmeonipersonEugene GearpersonBrian Morrisperson

Signals

  • ?

    design_innovation: Adam pioneered 3-shade dot matrix animation with extreme pixel constraints (128x32 resolution, 3 intensity levels), creating illusion of realism and motion under severe technical limitations

    high · Adam describes 32-pixel high graphics with 3 colors as 'simple it's difficult' paradox; details the learning curve and innovation required

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Williams used Deluxe Animation (last updated 1990) to create BBM frame files exported to programmers; dot matrix display introduced mid-career as plasma box connected to printer port for real-time preview

    high · Adam details workflow: Deluxe Animation → BBM export → programmer import; plasma dot box arrived around 1997

  • ?

    licensing_signal: ILM deliberately provided corrupted/damaged 3D models to prevent reverse engineering; Williams paid record license fee for Star Wars but received compromised assets requiring weeks of repair

    high · Adam explains ILM's deliberate damage strategy and repair burden; notes Star Wars was 'most expensive pinball license in history'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Williams laid off gaming art department (including Adam) after ~1.5 years, then rehired him as dot guy when pinball team needed graphics support; Brian Morris, hired alongside, later transitioned to part-time role

    high · Adam describes non-compete contract, Data East offer rescinded, Williams rehire; Brian Morris lasted until Medieval Madness before part-time transition

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Brian Eddy's design approach valued input from all team members regardless of role; Adam contributed mechanical ideas (e.g., extra ball animation for Attack from Mars) that made it into final game

Topics

Dot matrix animation history and productionprimaryPinball 2000 3D animation developmentprimaryWilliams pinball game pipeline (1990s-2000)primaryLicensing challenges and IP integrationprimaryDesign collaboration and team dynamicssecondaryDigital art tools and software evolutionsecondaryGame development crunch and production cyclessecondaryArtist recognition and credit in game industrymentioned

Sentiment

positive(0.72)— Adam speaks fondly of his pinball career, especially collaboration with Brian Eddy and the dot matrix era. Frustration evident regarding licensing constraints (Johnny Mnemonic viewing, ILM damaged models, limited Congo references, unfinished Pinball 2000 experience), but overall reflective and proud of accomplishments. Warm tone about mentorship (El Thomas) and colleague relationships.

Transcript

whisper_import · $0.000

Hello my creatures of the night. You know I never drink wine. But I do listen to Norman Shaggy on the Topcast. Yeah. You're listening to Topcast, this old pinballs online radio. For more information visit them anytime www.marvin3m.com. Welcome to another episode of Topcast. Today on Topcast we're going to be talking to a gentleman that did the dot matrix art for a good number of the 1990s Williams Valley dot matrix pinball games. He did games from attack from Mars, Circus Voltaire, cactus canyon, Indianapolis 500, junkyard, medieval mannest, monster bash, no fear, no good gofers, red and Ted Rocho, and he did a number of the pinball 2000 games too, the 3D animation in those games too. Adam has also done the dot matrix art for a couple of the newer stern games too. Now we're going to be talking to him on how he did these games and his experiences as an art and dot guy on these on these machines. Special guest, special guest, special guest, I'd like to welcome Adam Reign. Adam again worked on you know a good majority of the WPC games, the dot matrix artwork and animations for the WPC games. Adam did a total of 26 games for Williams and Valley and then of course he worked on the pinball 2000 games. So let's give Adam Reign a call right now and let's let's talk to him. Adam it's Joshua Clay. Hi there how are you? Can you hear me okay? I can hear you just fine. Cool. So you know I went to the internet pinball database and I just did like you know I did I attempted in your last name under people and it it brings up a bunch of games you know that that you were quote acknowledged as as doing I'm sure you've probably done more than this. Actually this morning I spent a little time writing out this is the first time I've done this so all the games that I did work on that counted 26. Okay so yeah they're three short. You know what they always are they're they always kind of leave people out. Especially that guys. Yeah yeah you guys are kind of like you know the important part that everybody forgets right. Very well said. Yeah well it's true because you know all the visuals are right you know are there but anyways okay let's let's back up like how did how did you get started in the whole pinball thing or were you like an artist and you kind of got sucked into this or were you a pinball guy and you want it to be into this. Well actually yeah that yeah sort of as you said got sucked into it. What had happened is I graduated from college with a degree in illustration. While in college I had done some freelance computer animation work for an educational movie company and this man had loaned me and get this a 386.25 with a 14 inch monitor. Super high tech back then this is 1991. So upon leaving college so on the paper for deluxe animation animator. I figure how how much different could it possibly be from Autodesk Animator Pro which is what I was using. So I interviewed and got the job actually at WMS gaming which was the video lottery terminal and flood machine division of Williams. To that time they had been using Linda Deal who was a pinball artist. Right. Who had done the theater magic doctor who those sort of games but she was way too busy for gaming. So they decided to hire a full timer and I was the first one. So you actually brought you came in under the slot machine division but this was just you were just responding to an ad in the paper. Exactly so while there I definitely learned the chops of how to be a digital artist in a game environment working with software engineers and game designers but for gambling. So while I was at WMS gaming my coworkers and I would sneak over to the Williams building and we would play pinball. Did you were you playing? Were you now were you at California Avenue or were you at what Keegan? Yeah this is California Avenue. Okay so did they and that's where all the designers pretty much were located back then. Exactly. Pinball had these the top floor which is the second floor and at that time midway was the first floor and then the building adjacent to it only separated by an alley was the gaming division. Okay now at the time gaming was going through they were getting sued by IGT. Very much so yes. And they were they're at forced Williams to go from like a real-based slot to basically video slots and that's where you came in as an artist right. Right they'd actually they're very first towing the water of gaming was video lottery terminals. So these are state sponsored gambling terminals like in self- Carolina you know now I'm forgetting all the states but definitely not Illinois. So I was working on video poker video slots but only on the video side. And how was I mean were you doing like just general color animations on like a VGA style monitor type thing? Exactly. I would do you know lucky sevens and I would do cherries and different different gaming graphics whatever animations had to be done and then as we moved into the real spinners which were the actual physical slot machines that had those spinning wheels then I was doing what's called belly glass art. So that is actually very high res illustration for what you see in the middle and the top of the game like where the the pay table is. Are you talking is that like soap screen dark? Yeah that's eventually soap screen but we were creating it in Adobe Illustrator. Oh okay it Adobe Illustrator so that means that everything was instead of vector it was yeah it was vector graphics instead of pixel graphics. Exactly so it's sort of at that time graduated from pixels to vectors. Okay now was it hard working in vector versus pixel? At first yes but they had hired a man named El Thomas who was he worked out in Las Vegas as a game graphic designer and illustrator for the gaming industry. When he was brought over to Chicago he taught me the ropes he is just an absolute genius when it comes to Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop. So just by sitting next to the guy by us Moses I learned pretty much the fundamentals and how to think and create using those programs and I'm still using those same skills today. I mean we're originally when you now where did you go to college what's school? I went to college at Northern Illinois University in DeKelpe. So when you were in college where you you probably weren't using the computer at all for any. I did not touch a computer my entire four and a half years well in college. Fortunately that education and movie producer loaned me a computer to use it school as a freelancer that's how I got my chops down. Okay so by that school nobody was doing that huh? Pretty much right there I think there's one Macintosh and the whole building and that was for the visual communication guys which were doing page layout which was very boring. It was at a black and white Mac at the time. I believe so yes I've seen it but I never touched it. Okay okay interesting now what year did you graduate? Graduated in August of 92. And they had no computers back then. Well at least in the art department we were even told that you won't be seeing computers in the art field for another five years boy were they wrong. Yeah like usual huh? Those college guys they just don't get out those college professors they just don't get out much. They certainly do not and actually when I had gone back there I told some of my professors in commercial illustration guys you might want to look around there's something called Photoshop up there and a year after I told them that they started getting computers into that department. So when you said Photoshop told them they give you like a blank stare. I think they had heard of it but they had no idea it was as pervasive as it was at that time. Okay so now you're doing slot machines at WMS and these you graduated to the ones where you've got the real slots but some of those machines had dot matrix displays right? Actually when I departed gaming that was actually before the integrated dots into slot machines. Okay so your first your first workings in dot matrix was in pinball then. Exactly. Okay now so you've got a dot matrix display on pinball which is what a 128 pixels wide by 32 and how many levels of intensity is each dot is three? There are three shades there's the 100% on 90% on and 75% on and then zero. Erred off. Right okay so when you start doing art for that I mean that must have been required some learning curve there. Oh incredible it is so simple it's difficult. There's a paradox. That you know how hard could 32 pixel high graphics be in three colors? Well sit down and try it. Right. Yeah I definitely went through some pain in just wrapping my brain around how to create the illusion of reality and motion only using three colors with 32 pixels high. So what was the first game you worked on? Very first game was Corvette which is a George Gomez game. I had done I believe it might have been like a shoot again or replay animation. I had come in very end of that project and fortunately a lot of the dots were already done as far as drawings of Corvettes. So I was able to cut and paste and create new graphics using Scott Flowmeoni and Eugene Gears graphics. Okay now when you're doing this what developmental tools do you use in the dot matrix thing? Well back then we're using actually to this day we're using Deluxe Animation which is by electronic arts. The last update of that software was 1990. Oh wow. Yes talk about software with dust on it but you know what? Since then there have been no other tools that have been as perfect as Deluxe Animation for doing this kind of graphics. Does that even run in Windows? It does run in Windows. I haven't tried on an XP but it does run in win 95. I would guess that there was well there was any Macatash tools or you were using a PCI. I know it was an all PC company and it probably still is. So they plot the PC and my desk and said here you go. So even today like you've done some recent stuff you've done you know you did Ripley's in NASCAR. Exactly. Are you still using the same tool? I am still using Deluxe Animation. I have a win 95 computer in a very small room my condo and I turn off all the lights and I just I get into the dot groove just like it used to be in pinball. Now when you started doing the the dot matrix animations and all that for the pinball side was did you like basically abandon everything else that you were doing and you just became a dot guy and nothing else? Well here are you referring to after work or at Williams. On both actually. Well at Williams here's what has happened the gaming department after being there a year and a half. It was a very volatile company and it still is on the gaming side. They decided to have a big transition and they decided to lay off a fourth of the art department and they told me I was heading out the door. So at that time they invited me to interview in pinball and in video which it was midway. So I interviewed with Greg Freres and I interviewed with some video guys and I was actually at that time turned down by both. So I got my walking papers and I immediately the very next day after getting laid off I went to Data East. So went to Data East to talk to Joe Kamenka who hired me on the spot but there was a caveat there. While I was at Williams I had signed a non-compete contract which as a 22 year old and a very stupid one at that I didn't read the fine print which said that I cannot work for a competitor of Williams for a year after leaving no matter what division it happens to be. Right. So here I was a gambling artist or a gaming artist interviewing at a pinball company and I was still prevented from working there. So some lawyers got to work between Williams and Data East in the meantime. Scott Fulmiani was promoted to game designer and Eugene Geer was promoted to a video artist at Midway. So now suddenly there were two slots open for dot guys. So I got a call from ex-Jews Ken Fidesna who is General Manager of Williams saying hey want to be a dot guy? Okay so I went over to join Greg Ferrer's and his team and I became the first of two new dot guys. Who was the other guy that came in with you? The other guy is named Brian Morris. He is a guy from Chicago and we had a quite a few people out there for a lot of the interviews. He's a fantastic artist and a really great and warm guy and I think he's the only person in my entire life who I saw interview while wearing sandals and still got the job. Now how come I don't see his name? I mean you see if you look on games I know I always look for you know the list things and I see your name not as much as like Scott the dot. Scott the dot you see almost on every game it's sure and I see your name occasionally but I don't think I've ever seen his name. Let's see Brian look at my list Brian Morris was definitely part of think theater of magic might have been his first game and that was 94. Now Brian lasted all the way until medieval madness and then when we went through a round of layoffs at Williams Brian was moved part-time to Midway so he was still doing dots for Williams but he was also a video artist for Midway. Okay so he's sharing this share in the limelight as it may be. Exactly. Okay so now your first game was Corvette and you said that some other guys had done most of the cars. Right it was flown the ony and Eugene Geer. Okay so now when you when they passed this off to you are you just doing the art itself or do you actually have to do the code that animates the art? No I did well there I did no code whatsoever. I would create these animations on individual frames in deluxe animation which you can page through either individually or plain sequence. We would export what are called BBM files which are as obscure as you can get. We would hand these single BBM files over to the programmers. For instance like Matt Coriel, Dwight Sullivan, Lyman Sheets those are all programmers who would then take these BBMs and import them into their system and I don't know what kind of magic or voodoo they do but it appeared on the dot screen in the choreography that they wanted. Now when you're developing this using your software you're doing it on a standard video monitor right? Exactly. So but when they're doing the animations in that they're I doing it on a dot matrix or something? Yes and actually about halfway through my tenure there they they built me what's called a dot box which was actually a plasma display in a metal casing that could be plugged into the printer port of my computer. So I could actually send any frame I wanted to print and then I would see it displayed on an actual plasma display. Was that a helpful tool or no? Absolutely very helpful because what I noticed is whatever you do on screen is actually appears wider on the plasma display because of the spacing in between the light bulbs. Oh okay. So if you do someone's face and it looks absolutely perfect on your computer and you display it on the plasma screen they get a little fatter. But they didn't do this to what year did you get that? Oh boy 97 maybe it was late in the game. Wow so so when you would export these things and give them off to the programmers in that would they come back and say you know this one looks funky can you make them skinnier or something? Oh sure or I'd actually go to their office we'd hang out and they'd actually play back the animation in their development game and I could get definitely get a sense of what I did wrong and what needs to be changed. And how much of that iteration did you have to go through on any particular game? I guess it depends on the programmer. Somewhere we're picking you than others. I think there were more iterations when it came to actual like licenses and recognizable actors. Oh right. For instance NBA fast break and I forget the count but I had to do over 140 portraits of the starters of the NBA. I mean that must take it forever. It did and I was not given all the reference material I had to go surf the web to find some of these rookies who became starters and there were no photos of them on the web. I had to go you know research magazines or or find action shots of them and try to make them look like portraits. It was a complete nightmare. And so you spent more time on NBA fast break than you did on anything else then? Not necessarily but I do remember in particular just taking at least two weeks just to draw portraits of these starters. Wow. And it became a little tedious after a while. So most of your work was on the front end of the game development. And then you hand this off to the programmers and most of their work and then is going to be more on the back end. So it sounds like that they would get into more of a crunch when games needed finished in time than you would that you might be able to relax a little bit. Yeah there was the fortunate part of being a dot animator is that even though I worked on every single game I didn't have a focus when it came to what they called game hell I was usually spared most of the hell part. Okay now when you went over and started working for Stern on these on these on these last two games was the development procedure or you know how you did everything and who you worked with was it really any different than with you know with Williams. Well actually I never worked at Stern I did this on a freelance basis for Pat Lawler design. Okay it's actually at home in my condo safely tucked away and I would create these dot animations and then email them to Lewis Cozyars. Now did you have do you still have that plasma dot box that cooks up to your printer board? Not at all and in fact all the dots I did for Ripley's for Grand Prix and for NASCAR I have never seen I've never seen any of these games. Huh okay now you weren't able to when when WMS you know or when Williams closed down in 99 they didn't as a going away present give you one of these boxes. Actually as a going away present they made a revenge from Mars available to me to purchase so I did definitely purchase one. Okay now when they went to when they went to pinball 2000 did you were you involved in that much? Very much so I was the animation coordinator for the whole department so what had happened is as soon as we it was I should say the platform was announced and approved and we got the go ahead I was asked if I could leave the team to do all the 3D video graphics. I accepted but I accepted at a time when I had no idea how to do 3D design. So another learning curve? That was it talk about an extreme learning curve that was the dot learning curve was nothing compared to this. So what tools were you had did you have to use for the pinball 2000 stuff? Well initially we're going to go with 3D studio max and I must admit that that's a much harder program to learn from the ground up than others. So I remember some very long nights I had all the manuals at home reading them covered a cover thinking how the heck am I going to do this? Because not only do I have to perform but I have to leave the team in developing graphics on a platform that has doesn't even exist at the time. So did anybody else that was working with you know how to do this? Well we had we fortunately put together a really good team. I was the first one and I was I headed up the video department. We brought on Jack Jack Liddon who had come from Data East as a dot guy. He was working in gaming at WMS but he had had a 3D background. So we brought him over to work on pinball 2000. Then we started interviewing some new guys. We brought on Dave Mueller and Scott Sanders. Both of which were at the time really young guys fresh out of school but they had a lot of 3D experience. So did they help you get through this curve? In fact it was Scott Sanders who recommended using what called Lightwave which is a product by Newtech. Now Lightwave fortunately for me was a much easier tool to learn especially when you have someone sitting next to you teaching. Right. So instead of 3 studio max which was a major headache and I did learn it later on in life but at the time Lightwave was an absolute godsend. I was able to learn the software, master it over time and help everyone else get into the pinball groove. Alright so let's let's take an example on like say revenge from Mars. When the game boots up you know you see the you know the saucerships and they kind of come at you. Right. Okay. Was that like one of the first animations you did for the game? Actually that was not mine that was Scott Sanders and in truth be told that was one of the only animations he did for that whole game. I had teamed him up with Greg Ferraris and asked Greg to do a storyboard to design the intro to the game. So Greg Ferraris who's one of the most talented artists that ever met drew some fantastic storyboards. He had enough to Scott Sanders and they worked forever to get the choreography down on that thing. So just a because a lot of people probably don't know what a storyboard is. The storyboard is just like basically almost a comic strip of hard art that he basically just drew with a pencil right? Exactly. They're the key moments in an animation or in a film I guess you could say that the you hand this sequence or sequential drawing off to an animator who then makes sure that those key points are hit during a film. And of course they have to the animator has to fill in between each one of these frames everything in between too. Exactly. So it's a huge job obviously. Oh yeah. So now doing animation for the pinball 2000 platform. I mean the actual once you learn the tools how much more difficult was it than using the doing the animations for you know a dot matrix screen? I would say almost infinitely because when doing 3D modeling and 3D animation the development cycle is far greater. When you create a 3D model you're literally creating it in three dimensions. You have to do the side in the back of any object that you're creating. Right you have to be able to draw basically every angle of it and then after you have that drawn then you can use the package to you know spin it or turn it or make it go forward left or right or backwards. Exactly that's that's right. Okay so you actually have to draw something that looks like you know like if you're drawing an egg you've got to draw every side and every ripple and it's and it's casing and everything right? Yeah it's it's a complete as opposed to just drawing a portrait which is one view of one person you have to draw the sides and back of their head and if you want them to talk you have to put extra geometry or three-dimensional geometry into their mouths and their eyes to make them blink mouth to make them move it's it's a much bigger deal you are trying to replicate reality in three dimensional space. Now for Star Wars did on did Lucas help at all with any of this? They both helped and hindered this is this was hysterical that we actually received some CD-ROMs from ILM and we were just like little kids were all excited wow ILM graphics and here they are well guess what they purposefully ruin the models the 3d models they gave us damaged and corrupted models so that we would not reverse engineer what they do and help their competitors. Oh man so basically what they gave you was useless then. It was in part useless we had to go spend many weeks on each model to repair them and we repaired them using our software so when we were finally done we had something that we could use but definitely would not be useful to any of ILM's competitors. So and that was their intention obviously. Yes but what was really frustrating is Williams paid the most money ever for that license. I'm not sure the exact dollar amount but we were told this was the most expensive pinball license in history yet after forking over all that money they gave us damaged goods and there was nothing you could do about it. No I mean how are you supposed to argue with Lucasfilm and ILM. Now who's ILM? That's industrial light magic George Lucas owns that company and they do all the special effects for all Lucasfilm movies and they do I guess other movie companies can hire them to do their graphics. And I mean if they had given you actual 3D models could have you reversed engineered and really done that what they were for you know. I would say no because here we were 5 or 6 guys you know pinball artists working in a very small environment we didn't have the equipment that they had at ILM. George Lucas has two billion dollars in his back pocket so the budgets are quite skewed there. It would have been very challenging to reverse engineer and to you know sell off or reveal any of their secrets to anyone. I was very frustrated that business decision. And do they does the light magic company did they use the same software that you guys were using? No they used let's see I don't remember what they used. I believe it was both soft and mosh and I can't remember it's one of the higher end Silicon graphics that was it. And so that's a lot more. A lot more expensive. Into the 5 and 6 figures for each workstation. So yeah it was night and day. Right right so okay. So now the so the Star Wars thing to get the Star Wars graphics up and running was that a lot more work than the revenge? It was different in that we had to use their graphics but it was also exciting in that Larry DeMar actually sectioned off part of the pinball engineering department behind lock doors there were only 19 of us who had signed non disclosure agreements with Lucasfilm who were allowed in that in those rooms. So John Papadouk had a actually I think it was a chemical waste cabinet with a lock on it the huge metal cabinet with all of Lucas's secrets documents and style guides and CD ROMs and the 19 of us were working on the game had access to it but no one else did. And when the game was done I mean did he have to dispose of that stuff? You know I don't know where it went but yeah when the game was done the door was unlocked and everyone can come on in because the secret was out. Right right. Okay so let's back back up to the to the dot matrix stuff. When you were doing the dot matrix what was the game that you were most proud of that you did? I would say it's a combo of two there is a tech from Mars and medieval madness. They're both Brian Eddy games and Brian was unique in that he definitely ran his teams as with the with the capital T as a team. He listened to everybody's input no matter who it was and if your ideas were any good it actually went in the game. So did you have any good ideas again implement? I think so I brought the big old beam to the table during a tech from Mars and the extra ball show was actually my idea with the Martian getting smacked in the head by the pinball. Yeah it's a good one. I like that one. You know I had it in mind what how I wanted it to feel and look and play out and Dan Forden must have read my mind because I didn't talk to him at all. He saw the show did that great music with that really grotesque impact sound with that squishy sound effect and it was just complete perfection when he got through with it. Now what was this one's maybe more strange what was the one game that you were least proud of? I guess there are a couple games which are very frustrating I wouldn't say I'm not proud of them but they were a little more difficult. Congo actually was a game it was a John Trudeau game I believe the first play field was developed and then rejected so they had fallen way behind on their development cycle. Brian Morrison and I are the two dot guys we're working on three other games and then that was foisted upon us as a late-comer where we were told do it as fast as you can. So in between doing these three other games I you know I had to squeeze in Congo dots and I don't think I did as good a job as I could have also we were not provided with a lot of reference material from the movie company. Was this before the movie came out that you were working on this? Yeah it was quite a bit before. I went ahead I purchased the book and read it but that really didn't help. We only had a three-minute trailer of the movie to work from. The rest we kind of made up and I would have liked to have done it better you know with more time more development cycle and better references. So when you're doing a license theme you guys don't get to see the movie ahead or anything? We did for Johnny Namanik and believe me that was not a treat. I mean when you have to you saw that movie where you like all my can we can we turn this license in? All the directors cut which actually had a different ending. It had an ending where Johnny Namanik the counter-reve character did not get his memory back. So it's a little bit edgy. I thought okay that's the pretty thing that the hero didn't actually win. He got the bad guy but he didn't get his memory back. So when my friends and I all went to the movie theater to go see it the final cut it had this sweet sappy ending where oh Johnny gets his brain back and it was just absolute Hollywood garbage. Now when they would send you this director's cut would it come on like a DVD or how? This is back in the good old days of VHS so we sat around. Actually I watched that movie back to front 22 times by time the game was done. You mean just to make sure that everything you were implementing was correct? Right we had to Brian Morris and I had to find the exact scenes we had to replicate in dots and we had to watch it over and over make sure we had the graphics right just the rather people. And does the company you know the movie company come in and see your game or have to approve any of the animations? Good question I don't know if either Johnny Demonic or Congo really went through that kind of approval process. Now Star Wars is a different animal. They sent a Lucasfilm rep showed up and she reviewed the game very critically. What kind of comments did she have? She actually had most of her comments for the back glass. Kevin O'Connor I guess had not made the pod race large enough and when she wanted him to make it bigger it was pretty much too late. How do you go back in with an eraser and fix a painting? So what happened? We might have talked our way out of it or maybe he put a glow behind it. I forget exactly what he did to make them happy but they eventually signed off on it. So the translate is a natural painting then? Yes all the artists throughout the William's history actually would go ahead and hand paint all of these back glasses. They would do it with airbrush acrylic paint watercolor. Whatever tool they needed. Exactly and then it would be photographed at the end of the day and run as a translate. Okay so now some of these other animations like when you're working on a non-license theme you know like most of your games are actually non-license themes. So they were they actually in fact easier because everything was in-house and you didn't have to deal with any of these exterior motivators. Yeah I definitely say so because we got to use whatever references we wanted to. Like for a tech from Mars we went ahead we went on a movie binge purchasing movies like I think it was that the day the earth stood still and I think it was like flying saucers from Mars or all the old black and white. Yes we collected all the 1950s movies and we set there just had a great time watching these things and we would watch for the scenes which were very indicative or very they represented the whole genre and we would steal those scenes and put them in the game. Now when you were doing Red and Ted Roacho what was the girl singer Carlisle I believe or I came in very late on that game I think it did the multiball start for that. I didn't do too much else that was a Scott Phil Mianney but yeah that was an original theme I don't know if that country singer had anything do with the approval process. Okay because I know that like people have tried to license the you know the art on the cabinets and they have to get a they have to get a approval from her as a third-party license and I know I have a contract with Williams as far as what they can do as far as resale of the art. Now how did you feel with any one of the particular designers did you have a particular favorite that you like to work with? I would have to say it was Brian Eddy and it was simply because he he was a very team-focused guy that whatever theme he was working on he wanted to hear everyone's opinions no matter how diverse or odd they were and as a team we would sit down and decide what was suitable for the game and if you had a good idea it would go in the game and I was as it was just a thrill to have either my dot ideas or even some of the speech that I wrote actually show up in the game. Now on the internet pinball database it says you there's 23 games you did but you said you did 26. What are the three left out? Well I'm not looking on the computer right now I can give you a run down of the games. Yeah sure go ahead. These are I don't think they're in order but they're that they could get Corvette was my first one. Yeah that's not in the internet database. Well I think maybe my name's not on the actual play field that could be why it's not on the internet. Gotcha. Dirty Harry. Okay. The shadow. Yeah now that was the other one the shadow isn't listed either and that was of course another Brian Eddy game right. Right now that's where I had met Brian Eddy I think I did one or two shows for that again that was I was I showed up on board a very late net design cycle. Now the shadow did how was that that's a license theme too. How was that one and that one and did you guys get to see the movie ahead on that one? That's a good question if anyone in the department saw the movie before came out I don't know because the game was pretty much finished by time I jumped on board. Okay okay that was just kind of curious I mean did what did you think of that game in general? That was a really fun game. I did see where the magnet that held the ball towards that door in the back. Yeah and threw it off. It would end up scraping the play field and it would kind of dirty up the game but other than that sort of I guess design issue that was a fun play field. Yeah I think that's a really fun game I'm pissed at the person though that put Alec Baldwin on the back glass. You know I mean you know that one makes no sense to me. I'm no great fan of his that's for sure. Yeah and also since you know the lead actress of course was certainly one of the most you know beautiful women of certainly of that era and she's got she's been totally minimalized you know. It could have been based on like a heavy-handed license or Doug Watson did the painting for that he might have been responding to some sort of demand where Alec Baldwin had to take up you know 50% of the back glass and the actors had to take up 25%. If you look at demolition man you see that Wesley Snipes and Sylvester Stallone were exactly equal in how large their heads were and that was a demand by the licensure. Really so Sandra Boett got the shaft then. Pretty much figures. Okay I'm sorry to interrupt you this what other ones did you do. Okay let's see Roadshow theater of magic attack from Mars Arabian Knights Jack Bot no fear safe cracker Indy 500 NBA fast break medieval madness Johnny Namanik Congo ticket tech toe which I guess you could argue if it's a pinball game or not. It's close enough. It's close enough. You can argue with Cameron all you like scared stiff champion pub circus Voltaire junkyard no good gofers monster bash cactus canyon revenge from Mars Star Wars episode one and Wizard blocks. Yeah there's a few that in there I don't see your champion pub being listed being listed either I mean now that that game was kind of an interesting game I mean was the animations were they challenging for that one. They were challenging actually I had rented or purchased the movie I think it's far and away with Tom Antonio Cruz it was a movie all about bare-fisted boxing. So we got some great nothing of a time Antonio Cruz fan which I'm not. We got some great footage of you know bare fists on people's faces and destroying their lips and their nose and that was a lot of fun to do each of the boxers getting pummeled in that. Now on Circus Voltaire you really went crazy with like some mini movies almost you know like the animations for with the balls and the clowns passing them and that really incredible work. Well thank you but I needed did was that like because Papaduke was was fortunate to do that kind of stuff or was that all just you know you could do it. As a couple of both John Papadiuk especially in that game he wanted to let his creativity flow that was a very he wanted to push the boundaries in the edge of what it was known as pinball you know pinball to that point was all no fear and NBA best break it was very you know hard driving sort of a one-dimensional he wanted to have a more of a artistic flair to the whole package so we really tried to have fun and push the dots into places they'd never been before. Yeah I can never imagine somebody that would come up with a theme like that you know what a 17th century philosopher as the you know it's it's the game is this a man from a theme did you guys I mean when you were sitting in that room you know and he presented that to you I mean you all kind of look at each other and say you know where you sure. Yeah to me and this is just my personal taste I was not crazy about the art package even though I'm not adverse to something different than like an Indie 500 or something that's like a straight up you know mechanical forceful game the the acid greens and the oranges and the yellows just got a bit much after a while. Right right you know I like to game and Cameron's home run certainly really opened that game up. Definitely you know if he was given the time he could have made it a much more a deeper game much more engaging game. Right now when you were working on these games did you have an opportunity to buy each one of them you know when you got done. Well that guy's had a different arrangement than everyone else we were able to buy one a year at the I guess a very reduced cost we could buy a prototype game which were not legally allowed to be sold you know two distributors or operators. You mean like an engineering sample. Exactly. Okay so the games that I picked up well there was theater of magic. Attack from Mars medieval madness and oh monster bash and of adventure Mars. Now how was it working on monster bash with doing all the monsters. You know what now I just bring up that I think that might have been the most fun game I worked on because I'm a big heavy metal guy. Okay my iPod is jam packed with just you know charging heavy metal so working with Vince Panna Relle on the you know doing the sounds because he's a he's a guitar player first and foremost that was a lot of fun to work on. Now did um was the license a hassle on that one. It was because George Gomez had wanted to license monster mash and get that song. Right. The owner of that song and I don't know the guy's name was going to charge us I think $20,000 to use that song. Wow. And for a Pimble game that's that's a bit much. Yeah especially for that's a fairly old song that came out in the 60s. Yeah this guy you know you hear it every year in Halloween he must be it's just a cash generating machine for that guy. Right well you know that you got to retire on a song there you go. That's the one to do it on I guess it keeps given every year. That's right but you know one of the animations that I'm most proud of is actually in that game and very few people see it. It is the the monster mash pit. I don't know if you're familiar with that show. Yeah yeah I am. That is cool. Do you know where where I pulled that from? I have no idea. What I did when I was told to do the monster mash pit and I want to do all the monsters jumping around I thought well I could just do them mashing which is to be expected but what if I have them do something a little different so I went to blockbuster and checked out Charlie Brown Christmas special and there's a dance scene in the Christmas special where the little redhead of girl was nodding her head back and forth. I think it's Schroeder has his arms out with his fingers down and doing a little dance. Okay I pulled each of the peanuts characters dances and gave it the dance to each of the monsters. So they are going from left to right doing you know Charlie Brown dances and when put to the the grinding heavy metal of imponorelli to me that was sort of a juxtaposition that I just I live for. Now Lyman's lament that's in monster bash. Did you do after do any special animations for him? No I think you know I haven't seen that long time. I think he used existing dots in that game to put together the little men's but yeah that's Lyman complaining and he's very famous for it he probably still is so we made a whole mode out of it. Did he know that or I mean did he ask for that motor? Did you guys just kind of I think George Gomez wanted to institute it but of course Lyman was the only programmer so I think Lyman actually programmed that mode. Right okay well I kind of make sense it kind of ruins the surprise though. It does but you know if if you know Lyman if you spoken to him it's it's very much him. Alright we're gonna take a little break from talking to Adam Rhine. Pins and vids episode two attack on the phones is now available at pinsandids.com it's the best pins and vids yet double the fun and half the underwear the first episode. Surely it'd be nominated for a Oscar for the best use of fake phones in a niche video or best special effects during a dream sequence. Worth much much more than the six dollars including chip and selling price it's worth at least seven or seven fifty. Get your copy now at pinsandvids.com and now for a word from our lawyer the entire surprise goes with the pinball hall of fame. The first episode also available some pinball machines were hurt during the pinball pins vids but they were all get your great DVDs on cornup goodness now. Okay we're back with Adam Rhine from Williams Valley Art Department now on Safe Cracker. How much of a challenge was that to have basically you've got a board game going on you got the pinball going on and then you have the what is it the assault of all type you know that secondary game. How much more of a challenge for Matt Coriel who programmed that game. As far as dots go it was fairly straightforward we had certain shows to fulfill and you know and had to make them the best that we could. I think it was definitely more of a game designers challenge to pull it all together and pull it off. Unfortunately the sales do not reflect a victory for us. You know we tried hard it was very innovative but I don't think it worked in the marketplace. It works great in my basement. I think it's a great game you know I it's one of my favorite actually you know it's it's it's fun it's cute it's tight it's you know there's a lot of different aspects to it. The kids love it the adults love it I mean to me it it appeals for a wide range people. Yeah it did to us too we had a nir testing area and we would play it for hours and we thought yeah this was really fun but I guess it was sort of an in-between game that some arcade thought it was a redemption game some thought it was a pinball game and then they couldn't decide why or where to put it and why to buy it. I wasn't on the sales team but something someone dropped the ball there. Right now on Jackbot how did you feel about that kind of like that recycling of the pinbotton and kind of adding a gambling aspect to it. Well for me it was kind of fun because we were told that oh we have to fill there was a hole in the schedule as far as the factory goes. I forget the whole circumstance there but they wanted to bring out a game very quick so they brought out a winner which was pinbottes. They repackaged it as Jackbot with John Yosey artwork on it and as far as dots went since the first game didn't have any dots Brian Morrison I were told do whatever you want and that was a thrill. It was. Because I did the I think it was multiball where you fly through all those doors. Right. I sort of was channeling in a way what Python or the game designer Python would have been thinking with each door had a different card symbol the clubs the spades the diamonds and then I put the Yin and Yang and when the heart opened it was a broken heart. I thought that that something is weird as he would do and then it leads to the jackpot eyes and you pan up to his head which is all those mechanical stuff and then explode so we had all the memory we wanted to play with so I made a very long show. Now at the time no Python was no longer with Williams right. No he was he was showing the door well before I got there I met him once great-for-ers introduced me to him he had dropped by I guess the Pitcha Game idea which was not accepted thankfully I think you took Big Bang Bar elsewhere and yeah but it was his sort of artistic philosophy without all the psychosexual stuff I thought he's kind of this crazy guy so I wanted to put some craziness into that dot show. Now how was Dirty Harry in working in that license? Well that was kind of a mess I was brought in late in the project I guess it was a license that Williams had paid for several years prior to that and never used and suddenly the whatever company owns Dirty Harry put pressure on Williams to actually do a game. So Barry Auser was what I was told forced to do that license and put together a game in a hurry. And did that make your schedule compacted? I think Scott Follon-Neon had done most of the work on that game by time I got there but the game felt rushed even though it was a novice in the Pimble Department it definitely felt different than some of the other games that were coming out at the same time. And did Clint Eastwood have to approve any of the dots? Not to my knowledge I think the license was sold by that time and so was Clint that he no one I don't think anyone really cared. Now what about scared stiff? How was that to work out? That was a lot of fun because it's a great theme and actually Cassandra Peterson showed up in Pimble and we got the meter and she's very very short. Oh really? Yeah no I didn't. Without her makeup she looks very very old. Really? Yeah which it's like wait that's so it's until she smiles and you see her teeth you realize who it is. Right well she's probably 50 I would think. Yeah I don't know her biography but whatever makeup she puts on covers a lot. Right how is she still cute lady though? Oh yeah she's very very fine very you know personable she looked at all the dots she thought it was funny so that's pretty much the only celebrity meeting I had while at Williams. And she was easy to work with? Yeah I only met her once I guess it's her husband and her manager so he approved the whole game after it was done and I don't think they had much of a problem I mean if you look at her the license of her pretty much anything goes with that. Right right right so I mean was that I mean how how sexy could have you made the game or did they want you to make the game? I think we just stuck with you know what you see with her on television is how far we went with it the rest of it was all with monsters and creatures and more of the ancillary stuff. Right now on medieval madness any interesting stories related to that game? Yeah we sent I remember the team sat in the room this is Doug Watson had been laid off before that game came out because we were going to bring the attack from Mars team back together so we're all sitting in a room we knew what pressure we were under everybody wanted Brian Eddy to make another attack from Mars so he even shared that pressure with us that we really need to do attack from Mars but better and we thought better you know we had there's such such sparks flew when we put together attack from Mars how are we supposed to top that so we started working on the game and it ended up being like a Monty Python rip off as we were starting now was Monty Python supposed to be the license? No not at all it was going to be in that vein but the idea was going to be storm the castle and in fact it took months to name that game we I still have a page of about 50 names where we were bouncing around none of them seemed to stick so finally we had a voting and I think medieval madness came close to the top and then Brian Eddy circle it and said that's her name now when they were using the attack from Mars is kind of like a you know a benchmark at the time I mean they only sold about 3500 units of attack from Mars why was that earned very well and I think a great reviews and well I'm sure you've played it yeah yeah I own one it is great game but you know it's to me for as good a game as it is and they only made 3500 units it seems kind of odd well it's odd but consider what was happening to the industry at the time I believe theater magic sold about 6500 units right right I don't have the yep yep no that's right from theater magic we went downhill from there right as far as units sold until we came out with revenge from Mars which I think went over 7000 we were looking at the you know below for figures right and actually um scared stiff and medieval madness were both you know kind of high for that error they were about 4000 games each right and those were considered hits whereas five years prior to that that would have been a dud right right so when you when when you guys did the medieval did you feel like you surpassed attack from Mars I think we did and it's because we really got into the creativity of it I wrote some speech for it I helped design two modes for it John Yelsey was brought into replace Doug Watson on the art package and you can see by that backlash and especially the side cabinet that is some of the finest Yelsey artwork at least in my opinion I've ever seen now what what happened to you know Watson you said was in early and then he got laid off and one of the you know when they decreased teams or something yeah they they did a big cut I forget it was 50% or whatever number but they sent a lot of us engineers home and I mean did did any of the Watson art survive no I don't think he had even started sketching on that yet maybe he was talking to Brian Eddy that part I don't know but yeah he actually think Doug Watson was working on ticket tech toe art when he was asked to leave now let's talk about cactus Canyon sure a game that I really really like but one thing that everybody always brings up is that you know and a game match sequence it seems really plain what what's going on there I think well cactus Canyon as you know was the very last dot game and we were being pushed hard especially myself to get rid of the you know leave the dots behind and get on to Pimble 2000 so it was my basically my time was cut short by learning 3d design working with George Gomez and Brian Eddy on Revenge from Mars really myself and also Jim rap who is the other sort of a dot guy who had contributed a little bit to it we were just both pulled away from that game far too soon so you mean that the animation's never got drawn then you know I'm forgetting all the the exact but yeah there I don't think they got a complete dot package at least as complete as I would have made it had I not been the Pimble 2000 guy has anybody come back to you to revisit that and say hey we we really like you know to see a better match sequence can you draw something up well you know I've stayed in contact with Matt Coriel he now lives in Lexington Kentucky working for Lexmark he may have enhanced his rhymes but he has not asked me for any dots and actually I would ask for payment to work and since no one seems to want to write a check I guess the game is as it is right right now it's speaking of which how much time would it take to do like a match sequence like that from a dot point of you yeah yeah not that long matches usually you know if a concept is very easy like single frames or something it would have gone very quick it was programming with much harder than than animating so I couldn't speak to the actual coding but yeah I could probably do a quick match sequence okay well just in case I am going to get asked this what's looking at what's the what's the number on the check that we need to get it made out so that we can get this done have them they can email me at Adam at hebrart.com and we'll talk yeah because I think there's a lot of people that would like to see that you know something something done on the at the end of that I don't know how how much Matt's into doing it though well you know I don't know if Matt's going to listen to this tape or I can even email him I'll find out yeah because there's some people that would that would it mean included that would definitely be willing to contribute to that to that cause to get that maybe get that enhanced that would be great now wizard blocks how much did you work on that well we as soon as the very minute we finished with star wars episode one the whole team jumped on wizard blocks and we were working hard on it but I think we all saw the writing on the wall at that point what you know star wars did not make its numbers it did not sell well in non-English speaking countries like germany france which is where we used to sell most of our pimble games we kind of knew that the axles falling right but that was partly management's fault they raised the price of the game 500 box and got a bunch of those European orders canceled yes that too but the the earnings we were following the earnings and when a star wars episode one was put in the movie theater it was earned the people couldn't shove money in that thing fast enough but apparently it didn't earn as well in some of those other countries it was a damn jar jar well you know we saw the style guide from Lucasfilm and they had a chart how the demographics that each of the characters was supposed to skew towards so like the battle droids were young males and princess amadala was young female and old female and then jar jar was supposed to appeal to everyone male female young and old and I remember telling the rest of the group Lucas is either exactly right or exactly wrong yeah we know which one too that damn jar jar no what he was thinking can you read your jar jar into something else I don't care what it is can you take the graphics or playboy and put it over over jar jar just something I don't care take the wizards from wizard blocks I don't look into that damn jar jar you know in my opinion he made a better pinball character than he did a movie character because as you were to shoot the ball he'd fall over I was actually used by that right right but not only he just pisses me off on all levels I just don't I'm not a jar jar fan you know but I guess that isn't gonna happen so now I'm wizard blocks how far did you get with wizard blocks we started getting into some of the modes now pet waller who he's a very meticulous when he designs his games he is in control of all the modes and he does he designs some fantastic games but he definitely doesn't show his hand until he's ready now that works okay and dots where I could put together a brand new show in two or three days if he changes his mind but in 3d if you design like human models or creature models and he throws the whole mode out then you have to start from scratch and that could be a month of work so we did run into some time constraints as far as changing of minds you know dynamically to make the game better the designing graphics was a brand new ball game how many wizards did you get
Greg Ferrer
person
El Thomasperson
George Gomezperson
Matt Corielperson
Dwight Sullivanperson
Lyman Sheetsperson
Jack Liddonperson
Dave Millerperson
Scott Sandersperson
Dan Fordenperson
Pat Lawlorperson
Lewis Cozyarsperson
Larry DeMarperson
John Papadoukperson
Kevin O'Connorperson
Industrial Light & Magic (ILM)company

high · Adam praises Eddy: 'ran his teams as with the capital T as a team. He listened to everybody's input'; describes his own idea for Attack from Mars extra ball animation

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    product_concern: Congo rushed into development late, forcing dot artists to squeeze it between 3 other games with inadequate reference material (only 3-min trailer pre-release); Adam regrets quality due to time constraints

    high · Adam: 'Congo was foisted upon us as a late-comer where we were told do it as fast as you can'; acknowledges reduced quality due to time and reference limitations

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    technology_signal: Shift from 2D dot matrix to 3D animation for Pinball 2000 required learning 3D Studio Max (difficult) and Lightwave (more accessible); steep learning curve compared to dot matrix work

    high · Adam describes 3D learning as 'extreme learning curve' worse than dot matrix; Scott Sanders recommended Lightwave as 'absolute godsend' over 3D Studio Max

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    content_signal: This podcast interview (TOPCast) captures rare insider perspective from Williams animation lead, providing detailed production history, artist collaboration patterns, and licensing realities rarely documented publicly

    high · Host and guest discuss detailed production workflow, team structure, licensing negotiations, tool history; Adam provides specifics on 26 games and Pinball 2000 process

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    regulatory_signal: Williams enforced non-compete clause preventing Adam from working for competitor (Data East) for one year post-departure; legal intervention required to resolve conflict

    high · Adam signed non-compete as 22-year-old; prevented Data East employment; 'some lawyers got to work between Williams and Data East in the meantime'

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    sentiment_shift: Adam expresses pride in Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness (collaborative with Eddy), frustration with Congo (rushed), Johnny Mnemonic (poor source material), and regret at never physically seeing Ripley's/Grand Prix/NASCAR despite creating their animations

    high · Adam ranks games by pride; criticizes Congo and Johnny Mnemonic experiences; reveals he 'never seen' his freelance games

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    historical_signal: Dot matrix and animation artists systematically under-credited in pinball database (26 games vs. 23 credited); Adam notes artists 'especially that guys' are left out of acknowledgments

    high · Adam counts 26 games; IPDB shows fewer; notes 'they always kind of leave people out. Especially that guys' (animation artists)