The Pinball Show Ep 133: The Venom Episode

The Pinball Network·video·58m 41s·analyzed·Jul 24, 2023

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Pinball Show deep-dive into Venom's art, layout, mechanics, and market positioning.

Summary

In-depth review of Stern Pinball's Venom machine across Pro, Premium, and Limited Edition models. Hosts analyze artwork by Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti), playfield layout and mechanics by designer Brian Eddy, pricing ($6,999–$12,999), and creative team credentials. Discussion covers art package differentiation, layout design philosophy (fan layout with novel mechanisms), and introduction of a formal grading system for new releases.

Key Claims

Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) is objectively the best pinball artist currently working in the industry.
medium confidence · Host assertion during creative team discussion; framed as opinion but stated with conviction ('if you were to do a top 10...he would score at number one slot').
Venom Pro, Premium, and Limited Edition models have identical pricing to Foo Fighters' release in March: Pro $6,999, Premium $9,699, Limited Edition $12,999.
high confidence · Hosts state pricing directly at episode opening; confirmed against known Stern Cornerstone release structure.
Limited Edition Venom is limited to 1,000 units.
high confidence · Stated early in episode during model overview.
Venom is Brian Eddy's best-shooting Stern game, with superior geometry compared to Mandalorian and Stranger Things.
medium confidence · Host Dennis prediction based on playfield layout analysis: 'this will be Brian Eddie's best shooting Stern game and I don't think that's going to be close.'
Playfield art differs between Pro and Premium/LE models due to the Doppelgänger swing-out mechanism positioning.
high confidence · Hosts confirm different art on playfield where premium/LE has inserts under swing-out, while Pro displays Carnage/Venom instead.
Dwight Sullivan and Raymond Davidson are working together for the first time on Venom's software team.
high confidence · Host statement: 'this is the first time I believe Dwight and Raymond have worked together.'
Venom layout is a 'fan layout' with 9 shots, utilizing posts instead of stand-up targets, making it approachable but potentially challenging due to tight shot spacing.
medium confidence · Layout analysis and comparison to Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, Lord of the Rings; Dennis notes 'tight but findable' and potential 'Houdini-ish' dinking feel.
The 180 ramp is overused in modern Stern games as a space-saving measure rather than creative design choice.

Notable Quotes

“We are Venom...in the words of Venom we can do whatever we want.”
Host@ 1:38 — Opening rhetorical framing of episode theme.
“If you were to do a top 10 pinball artist straight down the middle video you wouldn't have to rely on some sort of whimsical pinball Gods as an excuse for the list—he would score at the number one slot. Of all time.”
Host@ 4:21 — Strong endorsement of Jeremy Packer's artistic status in the community.
“This will be Brian Eddie's best shooting Stern game and I don't think that's going to be close.”
Dennis@ 24:37 — Prediction about Venom's playability relative to prior Eddy designs.
“I don't like when they split things. I like things to be like a Star Wars premium.”
Host@ 11:25 — Aesthetic preference affecting cabinet design evaluation; reveals design philosophy preference.
“I'm tired of the 180 ramp. I've said it on episodes before I'm just sick and tired of a 180 ramp.”
Host@ 30:14 — Critical opinion on modern Stern design trend; community sentiment indicator.
“You look at this and you don't see brutality—you see speed.”
Dennis@ 22:54 — Characterization of fan layout as approachable rather than punishing.
“The good news is that this will shoot better than Stranger Things and it will shoot twice as good as the Mandalorian and that's just geometry.”

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyVenomgame Brian Eddyperson Jeremy Packerperson Dwight Sullivanperson Raymond DavidsonpersonDennis Creasonperson

Signals

?
product_launch: Venom officially revealed by Stern Pinball with high-res images, feature matrix, 30-page rule sheet, and two videos provided to community.
high · Hosts note 'Stern pinball had given us all of the high-res pictures they've given us a feature Matrix even a rule sheet like a 30-page rule sheet.'
?
design_innovation: Venom features novel left-to-right user-controlled ball-locking staging system that initiates different rule paths based on lock position, plus rotating Carnage scoop with multiple shot destinations (ramp, jump ramp, saucer, bash target, 180 ramp).
high · Detailed mechanical breakdown showing 'four stage rotating thing' and ball-locking system with 'user controlled' left/right options triggering different multiplier/villain modes.
?
design_philosophy: Brian Eddy commits to fan layout with shots pushed to back of playfield, prioritizing feel/geometry over toys. Uses posts instead of stand-up targets to reduce aggressive left-right bounce.
high · Hosts analyze 'quintessential fan layout' with 'all the notable shots towards the back' and praise 'he pushed the shots back' as improvement over Mandalorian/Stranger Things geometry.
~
sentiment_shift: Hosts express growing fatigue with 180 ramp usage in modern Stern games, characterizing it as space-saving expedience rather than creative design.
medium · Host: 'I'm tired of the 180 ramp...I'm just sick and tired of a 180 ramp' and 'they're doing it not because it's cool but because the footprint's so small.'
?
product_strategy: Premium and LE models include 180 ramp and Doppelgänger swing-out mechanism absent from Pro; different playfield art corresponding to mechanical differences; cabinet art differentiation across all three tiers.

Topics

Venom artwork and cabinet aestheticsprimaryPlayfield layout design and shot geometryprimaryMechanical features and innovations (rotating scoop, ball-locking staging)primaryCreative team credentials and designer/programmer rolesprimaryPricing and model differentiation (Pro/Premium/LE)primaryJeremy Packer's artistic ranking and portfoliosecondaryBrian Eddy design philosophy and evolutionsecondary180 ramp design trend and overuse in modern Stern gamessecondary

Sentiment

mixed(0.62)— Hosts praise artwork execution, creative team pedigree, and promising layout geometry/mechanics, but express reservations about the vanilla fan layout design, reliance on 180 ramps, and acknowledge Packer's art package ranks below his Ghostbusters and Iron Maiden work. Enthusiasm is qualified rather than effusive.

Transcript

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warning The Following episode contains adult language and screaming goats listener discretion is advised [Music] the pinball network is online launching the pinball show on episode 133 of the pinball show it's nothing but Venom baby as Dennis and I deep dive with you the different models of Venom we discussed the creators who made this possible pricing sales production as well as Loosely establish a new system for grading new games as we dive into the Venom art shots and layout mechs and toys code rules animation display theme and just a general overall assessment and Analysis by myself and pinball sweetheart Dennis cresel about to learn something here on the pinball show ball is a game of skill for some it's a passion and a lifestyle it's time for the pinball show it's pinball with personality choose your host change the game hey what's going on everybody it's episode 133 of the pinball show I'm here with Dennis creason 33 already oh I know on a very special 133 of the pinball show hmm Dennis what are we doing here well we're gonna do Venom we are Venom it's finally officially revealed yeah in the words of Venom we can do whatever we want oh I'm just gonna say compared to our episode 132 we're a day late and thirteen thousand dollars short aren't we hmm well you know what they say is always the pro model we appreciate all of the continued support from the exclusive pinball show club membership over at patreon.com the pinball show some of you are listening to this right at release of Venom others are listening to this at the beginning of the week but regardless thank you so much for tuning in and listening to Dennis and I's overview of the recently released term pinball Venom before deep diving into the different categories such as art shots layouts Max toys codes rules animation display before doing all that we know that this is a Cornerstone release thus listener there are three models a pro a premium and a limited edition model the limited edition model is limited to 1000 units pricing did not change from the last Cornerstone in Foo Fighters when that released in March so that would be six thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars for the pro oh nice 9699 for the premium you're good and twelve thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars for the limited edition nailed it thank you and we know that the creative team behind this is lead designer Brian Eddy who from Stern Pinball has done The Stranger Things game as well as the Mandalorian pinball machine and known most well for his design of Medieval Madness back in the 90s and to attack from Mars and my favorite 90s Bally William game uh the shadow yeah and the two lead software Engineers are Dwight Sullivan and Raymond Davidson though I believe the programming team is actually at least four individuals oh yeah I'd assume so this is the first time I believe Dwight and Raymond have worked together so Raymond Davidson made his name on uh let's see I'd say Led Zeppelin rush and Foo Fighters are the main three that he's known for and then Dwight Sullivan Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Ghostbusters Mandalorian I would say are the three fairly recent well-known ones right now Raymond is throwing all of his trophies uh from his trophy room of Avengers Infinity Quest trophy challenge yes well he can he can put them in a suitcase and fly them over in one of his airport modes I think this is kind of a dream team because then we had art by I think that if we took a poll from all the pinball enthusiasts in the industry right now in the hobby they would say undoubtedly that zombie Yeti that is Jeremy Packer (Zombie Yeti) is the best artist in pinball and has been for since he since he came aboard on Ghostbusters yes I think if you were to do a top 10 pinball artist straight down the middle video you wouldn't have to rely on some sort of whimsical pinball Gods uh as an excuse for the list I think you could probably objectively say he would score at the number one slot whoa of all time of all time yes I think so wow such a modern chill it's what I do who is the artist on on uh gottlieb's victory I think that would be I think I think that's Nikon Nikon wonderful so yeah kind of a Dream Team here on Stern Pinball's Venom what I do like about this announcement it rolled out very well right in the morning in CERN pinball had given us all of the high-res pictures they've given us a feature Matrix even a rule sheet like a 30-page rule sheet which I appreciate two videos to to oversee and was there anything else I was there there's a lot of stuff for people to consume themselves with with Venom here so the launch I think was was pretty standard and gave everybody the information they needed to make an assessment as to what this game generally will be so what do you want to start with art yeah I guess we can start with r yeah I was going to say leading into that I I did go ahead and look it up because I did not know victory was Constantino and Jeanine Mitchell oh nice credited for the art package yes I still think my camera joke was funnier in a sort of late 80s SNL way is it safe to say that uh unlike some of zombie Yeti's work in the past art Wise It's premium Le sometimes kind of blur into one another to me these all three seem visually like different art pieces I would agree in terms of the cabinet art however we do have the same trans lights for the yellow and the premium and the Playfield art is identical across all three models technically the Playfield art on the premium Le is different than really because well because of the doppelganger swings out and he's got inserts under him whereas on the pro that don't have that so that area is actually a whole different visual of I think it's Carnage and Venom let's look okay but yes other than notice that oh wow it's a totally different art package but other than that area yes everything else is the apron is also different yes apron is different I didn't mention the apron being different which one did you like art wise because we've got very typical to their releases the pro model tries to encapsulate everything that is whatever thing they're working with this is I'm going to call it the Venom verse because it is not just Venom he is the main character but it incorporates Carnage it incorporates all the different characters and baddies in venom as well as the iterations of the Hulk venom and Captain America Venom there's all different types of venom I think the pro model looks at that and with a mixture of colors the premium you get more Reds and you get more of that battle between Miles Morales and Carnage I thought all of these are just symbiotes but I'm not you know entirely so I'm not really squared away on my Venom lore phone a friend on this how to yourself I don't care or who cares or who it is and then the Le is one side is Venom the other side is Carnage so it's a battle between those two I would say that of the like taken as a whole I prefer the the Le package oh okay that's that's my favorite I suppose if I were to mix and match I'd probably say the Le package but uh with the pro translate so you like the pro translate I like both trans lights I think they it's just a different pose it's just I think the I don't know I'm it's it's a real close thing like it wouldn't bother it doesn't bother me one way or the other on it I just but I like this I like the cab dicado me much better on the Le I like that contrast of well it's the only one that really has a dark side to it that that uh that Venom side being in and I like that it you know because initially I thought well is this going to be a lot of blacks I do like the decision to use dark Blues absolutely because it gives it it gives it more pop without um but without it becoming uh you know a rainbow Fest I completely agree and if you're talking about because I've heard some people try to make the argument this isn't dark enough Venom is a dark uh a dark uh character it's a dark World um in the comic series I would argue that uh that the the comic colors of popping go best with pinball they always have I think they always will and when it comes to Venom especially I know that he's a darker character but he's no spawn or anything like that so he still has action and comedy encapsulated with him so just going black and white just doesn't cut it I like that they used a lot of color here right and and Jeremy's palettes are actually they're not too I mean I I use the word rainbow Fest earlier which would of course was designed to suggest using all of the colors which he doesn't do he usually does select a palette that I always call it Marvel method because that's what I associate with it so you'll see a lot of Reds and oranges usually and so I and I'm I'm looking a bit for variety I feel the the premium is very much what I normally think of when I think of Jeremy's work for stern a lot of red a lot of orange and my least favorite is definitely that Pro cabinet I purple's like my least favorite color in pinball I think it's because I saw too many people perp it up back in the old days with their RGB lights over there I should just say they're regular they're regular LED lights that were just purples everywhere just like guys don't perp it up guys and I I think I just have residual Trauma from that so seeing this purple uh even though it seems well integrated I mean like it's real easy to see Venom and read his name on the sides of the cabinet I see that purple and I'm like absolutely absolutely not my least favorite by a country mile when I look at these man it sucks that I have to be biased I want to be able to just tell people how I feel about this [ __ ] well you're going to tell them how you feel no matter what yeah and I I dare you guys not to believe me honestly um I don't whenever people whenever I read pinside I'm always going to read that this thing sucks and it's the ugliest thing ever and people don't even know what the game they're talking about they just you know insert negativity I I just like zombie Eddie work so this all looks unbelievable to me it all looks great to me when given preference I like the back glass of the premium in Le given uh what I like cabinet wise I see why you like the Le the differentiation I hate the dichotomy between St I don't like when they do that it gives me the whole Transformers half purple half red so I hate oh that was one of the more fun candidates I don't like when they split things I like things to be like a Star Wars premium you guys have heard me say that you got indoor on or Hoth or whatever the white the snow is on one side and the space I hate that I like it all to be similar now I do like that it's different artwork on the Ellie on both sides and I do love the foil that the Ellie has to offer but give me I love that that premium the side cabinet on that premium it just does it for me you get all the colors but then you get the bright Reds and oranges too from Carnage there's no bad art here I like all of them now we were talking before the air you weren't as hot on this art package from Yeti as you have been his previous work is that correct right it's well it's well done I mean come on it's it's true he knows what he's doing uh you can't argue like the comp I at least I don't feel and again I'm not an artist I can't I my critique abilities are merely that of a layperson um so I'm not gonna critique by the composition and the choices he made and I even get the the play field where I imagine some people are going to be a little annoyed at the it feels congestive those shots are clearly again it's about shot communication and all those shots are corresponding to like a to like a Carnage or a black suit Spider-Man what better way to convey that than to make it clear which characters you know in the art the art is very informational so yeah so you know and for me information trumps also uh so for for me that's good but yeah no in terms of like the pantheon of zombie Yeti uh art packages this is not top three what about this versus Foo Fighters uh you know Foo Fighters I don't love but part of that is I like the theme does nothing for me on Foo Fighters and I was actually surprised at like how well for when I heard it was a band pin I really had very low expectations on the art and I thought in a way Foo kind of felt like it looked a bit like a different style in some ways okay but my favorite is still one where I feel Jeremy did a very different style and that's Ghostbusters I still think that he's never really and maybe it's because he keeps doing all these Marvel properties and they like the you know it's I know it's not really fair to say Marvel method but I feel like even like Godzilla uh I'm not in a way surprised that you like the premium package the best because you know 50 feet away this is going to look just like all the other zombie yet ER packages you have those colors those Reds and oranges it's all going to kind of blend into this red orange poppy explosion to you and I think that's why you like it yeah um but uh for me I I want to see like different composition styling because I know he can do it and this is just you know I've already seen him do things like Avengers and Deadpool I don't need the same sort of style but again win some Marvel character I don't really expect it to be different so it met my expectations I just don't it just doesn't work as well for me as some of the other packages that he's done yeah I think for me it may be in my top three because I like this I definitely like it more than Foo Fighters I I don't care if Dave Grohl's on my play if give me venom or growl and okay please give me venom uh this looks better than Avengers to me this looks this is like right I would give this uh maybe an edge over Deadpool because for Deadpool I did not like that premium Ellie back glass on Deadpool whereas Venom I do when it comes to the Deadpool side art I I really liked the pro on Deadpool um and then the I love the Big Red Deadpool on the Playfield I love those large features just like the Venom down on the the Star-Lord area right right big I don't like the small character stuff like like the ride what would your ranking be because I I'm trying to say my ranking list right right uh well I'll tell you the list real quick if you want so so besides Venom he's had I guess in chronological order Ghostbusters if you want to count it and I wouldn't but you if you want to you All-Star baseball in the zombie League Baseball he did those if you want to count them database uh Iron Maiden Deadpool Primus Turtles Avengers and Godzilla so then also Foo and Venom from this year so My ranking would be Ghostbusters number one really any iteration I love the art package on Ghostbusters Lincoln looks really really good I would say the my next no my number two would actually be Iron Maiden premium the the desert version thing going on there I really like that I I I you know I don't care at all about Iron Man but I love that art package and then uh for me I'd probably say Turtles which is my third okay or any version we're not too far off there and I will be the first to say that it is tough for me because I'm going to fall in love with themes that I like better um I'm gonna go first place is Ghostbusters I'm with you second likely for me would be Turtles and then see then the next section for me is like Venom Godzilla Venom Godzilla and Deadpool are that next tier and then uh the All-Star baseball didn't do much for me it looks nice but I don't rate it very high Primus I just don't give a [ __ ] Foo Fighters looked pretty but it's just not my not my theme at all yeah I'd probably yeah looking back again at I haven't looked enough at the Foo Fighters Arc because I was so uninterested in the theme but I'd probably put Venom above Foo Fighters um maybe above Avengers I didn't really care that much for the Avengers art well no let me about the same as Adventure I put it above Godzilla Godzilla I I didn't like the decision to do the more postory style you know I wanted it to be a more muted color scheme though I talked about that back when that came out so I just had I just had different expectations I mean it's still I think pretty telling that we only put him in competition against himself that's very much much true we always talk about whenever a game is released it has to have it has to check so many boxes all the boxes half of the boxes at least 25 of the boxes you know me I've got I'm gonna have this formal system at some point uh I think the last time I roughly did it was like three out of five and four out of five is a guaranteed hit three out of five will sell a lot of units I see what you're saying yeah but this is how many boxes this is a box check art the art checks okay it's good and when I check the box I'm saying it is a standout selling feature check what about the shots and layout of this game Let's jump into Brian Eddy's Oh I thought that was the sound of a fan you turned on no that's the sound of my I don't know if this box gets checked or not because I see it going both ways oh what would check it for you what would not well go ahead and explain you know Brian Eddy so this is one of his designs does it does it look familiar to you yeah it looks familiar because it looks like the most quintessential fan layout ever now yes I I had thought about uh opening this episode or our glorious 133 which in no way has ever been interrupted while we've been recording it and doing something like I do declare Mr Minnie just show how hot down here in the South could you pass me my fan I thought about that but I wasn't sure if that really worked I mean I I don't want to I'm not trying to go viral here I I hope you have one of those little sun umbrellas yeah a little lace on here Twilight with my dainty little gloves that's how I picture Brian Eddy at this point Brian we need a shadow where's your third flipper so anyone who's been hoping for me that Brian Eddy is going to take a page out of his shadow layout and and reuse elements uh this is not the these are not the droids you're looking for uh yeah this is there's nothing there's nothing inspiring about this layout I'll say it I mean and this is why I I said though about your your box check system it's tough for me because if you want to talk about like the most vanilla layout It's gotta be the fan and this I mean you know we've talked about how you know the prototypical or quintessential however wanted to finite versions of fan layouts have often been two of his greatest games Medieval Madness and attack from Mars but in some ways this looks even more famish because there's not a huge I mean the it's the fantasy but but all the notable shots are towards the back I mean all of them are you don't have a big a big Mech taking a much space there like you had the drop Bank on attack or of course the castle on medieval it's just yet more shots projector screen on Stranger Things yeah or stranger things which again was a fan layout but you had some stuff where he I I don't say it was broken up too I mean those were very very clearly fans but it's just like this was just like where there might have been toys the toys or the rant everything is like the width of a ramp shot including the toys everything is like exactly the same size is what it looks like from the overhead shot when I first looked at this dentist for some reason reminded me of Steve Ritchie's Game of Thrones Pro I could I could see that I could see that the difference is and we talked about this before we went on the air even the even the pro still had that what was it the Catapult battery Ram or something there's that one toy that's near the flippers near-ish the flippers that kind of break I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't argue that it's not that it somehow isn't a fan because of that but but it provides a degree of danger because when there's a Target that close it's in your face uh this does this is not this is um you know we talked a lot about well not us but I've heard the community talk a lot about how Foo Fighter is part of the reason why people love it so much is it's a fairly long player same argument for Godzilla this looks like it's gonna be a long player I I don't know about that well it will it will be some of this is going to be fast and that's some of the things where you know where it's not just looks the looks alone don't tell us everything because there is stuff about how the rules are going to work with Ball State like there's some ball lock ball stagey stuff that's supposed to be designed trying to keep the speed up so this is like a main level no fear type of fan but here's a but here separate from that even separate from that which I do think is an interesting concept I I definitely need to see gameplay to better understand it but I wonder is this a is the layout not a box check or is it a box check because when it comes to people in general they love shooting fan layouts that's all the like Lord of the Rings is a fan layout medieval attack like top games are often fan layouts it's approachable games oftentimes sure hi so and so correct so I'm wondering I'm fast and flowy like no other when I think like long-term pinball people are probably going to if I'm going to stereotype and I'm going to because we're on a podcast I gotta speak with some generalizations um I I do think a lot of long time collectors are probably going to look at this layout and feel like it's just really really familiar and they're not going to like that but newer players might look at this and go you know what I really like that this doesn't have you look at this and you don't see brutality no you do not see brutality you see speed and what here's what I'm going to say listener here's the good news uh whether or not you like fan layouts you know that it goes down historically as probably one of the most common layout types in modern pinball it just is what it is the good news is that this will shoot better than stranger things and it will shoot twice as good as the Mandalorian and that's just geometry because if you look at the mandalorian's not a fan at all though well we're gonna do this no we're not we're just saying exactly you can definitely say this one field yeah upper playfield's just completely disqualify that criteria we've had this conversation no fear I know some people are I would say no fear no fear is not a fan layout because that upper play field is not a fan it's the truth that's true I know I know plenty of people who would say it's the exception that proves the rule I don't I don't agree with exceptions like that what I'm saying is that when it comes to Mandalorian shot geometry is mid Playfield for a lot of those shots which yes which initiates what people call clunky feel this is like you said shots more towards the back you put shots towards the back you're going to get much better feel because the velocity of the ball is not as high when it goes to hit mechanisms or ramps or drop targets or whatever it may be sure it's also a relatively high flow game I mean absolutely again looking at it on paper or on picture I should say the two shots that look to be non-flow are the captive ball Carnage shot and then that Bell Tower Yep this will be Brian Eddy's best shooting Stern game and I don't think that's going to be close so that's good it's going to feel good because it is a very much a fan layout I think it may be a little tougher than people think because of how many shots are in this fan we're looking at what nine shots they are somewhat tight this is not this is not exactly your Lord of the Rings and layout yeah and he's utilizing a lot of posts instead of stand-up targets so while you don't get that fly back that you would on the left side of the play field because of the posts you may get a little Alice cooperi where it feels like you're just dinking and dunking a lot of things so that that may be into consideration too tight but findable question mark maybe houdiniish maybe you don't have much to the left and right going east and west like Lawler likes to put you in danger of but you're very much fan you're very much back into the play field so it's going to shoot well it's going to be very approachable to shoot so that's the good thing whenever I seen a fan layout and saying that it was pretty much uninspired that would make me not want to check the box however I do like that he pushed the shots back thank you Brian because uh Mandalorian that's tough that one that game is tough to feel good but he couldn't push those back as the Playfield the upper grogu didn't need a magnet with any legs he just needed a magical wavy arm thingy and he didn't even have that here's what he got a 22 page mod to make it so here's what may help check the box the designer themselves listener is responsible for geometry but damn it they're also responsible for engineering mechanisms whether it's a team approach or not they're the lead designer they're deciding that kind of stuff and you know people say where are the toys in games nowadays like there were 90s and then you hear other people shots are the new toys and stuff like that I think this has gone further and here Brian Eddy is again pushing the envelope for mechanisms we have mechanisms again like we did in stranger things that are novel they're interesting multiple mechanisms too you have a captive ball with a a setting system to the left in Carnage and we'll jump into kind of shots layout mechs and toys it all goes hand in hand here Dennis but the Carnage thing is pretty cool I like this four stage rotating thing it makes four different shots to the to the right you gotta ramp flap you get it going straight you got it going up like a jump ramp kind of thing it can go all the way into you it can also go into a saucer to do a Spider-Man up kick vuck up kick to the wire form then you've got middle of play field how it can go up into a bashing Target it can go until 180 ramp it can go into what was the other thing a scoop so there's multiple mechanisms that are very very intriguing in this game when I first saw the pictures though I didn't see a big ass Venom head with a tongue sticking out so I'm like what are the where's everything at what the hell it's just looks like a bear fan layout but upon further inspection there's a lot going on in this game not to mention what I'm probably most excited about the left to right staging uh locking ball systems that aren't just physical ball locks they're user controlled and going left and locking in certain spots is going to initiate certain parts of the rules and code versus the right one that's going to be other I think multipliers other modes and villains I like that that physical Locking System there what do you think about the max integrated into the shots because there's a lot there are a lot of shots in this game because of the mech use yes I thought it was a real interesting way to to take already what I felt were a lot of entryway shots because of the decision basically to commit hardcore to the fan and not make these very wide shots and then to add even more variety to it so there there are a lot of potential pathings that are available whether or not it's going to be fun uh I'm not I'm not yet sure of sure I like the I like the Carnage uh like very Target thing going on there but uh just because it's not a that's not a Mac we see too much of though the the captive ball there I'm hoping that works well sorry I still have Buck Rogers flashbacks where that captive ball ruins the very Target um and I own that game so I know how bad it is you mentioned like the 180 ramp show now I think that's only premium Le isn't it yes the pro doesn't have any of those it's just a yeah right that you do and that's one of the things where I think that might be tough for a few people we've seen that more and more it seems lately but I I guess the pro people they do get the staging ball locks and that that is something I'm really curious about because that's where I'm wondering if given when those are going to release or whatnot if that's going to give you that more fast feel going on too it doesn't just let them so that's the part where I'm thinking you know this looks like a pretty forgiving layout in terms of a lot of reaction time because all the shots are towards the back but if you're constantly having to deal with rapidly deployed in-lane balls that could be that could be really interesting so that's the part that probably excites me the most um I do like the cleverness of the like you know 180 and like three different you know shot positions I I I'm starting to wonder I'll just throw this out here I think you'll disagree with me and that's fine maybe most of the listeners will too have we jumped the shark yet on the 180 ramp because it feels like they're using it all the time now just to save you know what preach I'm tired of the 180 ramp I've said it on episodes before I'm just sick and tired of a 180 ramp plus most times I feel clunky anyway John Borg has perfected one um on Monsters I'm trying to think if there's another 180 that really feels regular ramp worthy um The Munsters one is the only one that comes from yeah monsters was the other one that came before this far back left one I'm sure will be fine because it it mimics more of a standard ramp but that that little half quarter turn even like Jurassic Park that little I I don't like that it doesn't feel good I want ramps to feel good and 180 ramps I'm just kind of over like the Mandalorian 180 on the premium yeah it does nothing yeah I'm starting to okay I'm starting to feel like they're doing it not because it's cool but because the footprint's so small it just it's just it takes up less space than everything else so they're they're able to go through the backboard I like that yeah I anyway okay you know I wasn't enamored with that especially the looking at the photos of like the Venom 180 ramp position so where does it feed does it just shoot back onto the Playfield when it's not in position one the one yeah so I'm talking about the one to the right of the bell tower that can do a 180 ramp I believe it can do a scoop and then it can also just uh let it open for a u kind of like the pro okay I was focused on the top I wasn't even looking at it okay all of a sudden how much like all let's do I'm like Zach all it's doing is making the ball fly up over the ramp and I'm trying to figure out why we would want that to happen it has been a long day I should have caught that from the photos alone I love those spot weld spots on it too oh that's pretty so yeah that's uh okay that's a u and then the right like that how they're doing it makes sense so yeah I mean it's it's an excellent use of space sure um I'm just I do like the fact that when people say Brian we want third flipper he can come back and say objectively there are more shot variations in this two flipper design than most every single third flipper designed game ever created objectively because you're going to get you're going to get two or three extra shots in a third flipper game usually this right here one two three four five you get five extra shots just with those two mechs on the premium outlet on the L on the pro no I'm with you one two three four five six seven eight that's a nine shot basic fan layout but yeah no I I but I don't disagree with you it's uh I mean third yeah third flipper at most uh that I can recall ever seen is three shots a lot of times it's one to two well yeah one usually there's like one like you're thinking like warp ramp and then one clunk like oh yeah hit these targets to to restore your ball saver or if you want to try to break your ramp on Star Trek and try to use that third flipper to hit the left ramp you're like oh yeah that poor little that yeah I've hit that ramp can we talk about this Bell Tower they're promoting it as having a real Bell in it because when I see a stand-up Target Dennis I gotta be honest I'm like who gives a [ __ ] now what they did in AC DC with that Bell that's phenomenal feeling yeah the AC DC Bell is awesome it's one of my favorite toys the best I agree this but this the like the size that Bell cannot emit a sound that's nothing more than anything let me use my little can tab here yes [Music] yeah if it has some feedback and a Shaker and a like an audio boom then okay but other I mean you know what if they're saying you get this working Bell or you just get a stand-up Target which one you want all right all right again small footprint they're actually putting a maca toy something to do there so I mean I like the look of the like I like the look of the tower how clean it is and put it together given how small it is yeah I do too I like a working gate when you capture Carnage it kind of closes the gate thing there's a lot of moving elements on this game that I think people are not realizing because our expectations were we we always expect big moldings or one Central toy like a Medieval Madness Castle but I think it's got a lot in it also uh and I think Brian's kind of fond of this it seems kind of hiding pop bumpers got a couple hidden in the back yeah there's two pop bumpers back there it's gonna be a safe exit it is it is and so that's where I'm kind of like maybe but maybe not maybe not put those in Zach and then give us a sculpt sure big I think Dwight Sullivan demands pop bumpers for his mystery matches one of the Kansas City people did did say when I told him uh who was on rules they they did say Okay so we're gonna have the uh the lotto pops I'm a fan of a lot of Pops I won't say anything the other they were not the other clever thing design wise that people don't do enough thank you Brian for doing it there is a sneaky shot there I don't know if you can see it uh but I don't know if it's on the pro but I know it's on the premium it's almost like a Subway pole gobble thing and they can call it I have seen it in some of the other photos right I I think yeah it's like like a sneaky the sneaky Hideout okay yeah see I love that I love that plunge and it looks like it's got a vuck under it see that's fantastic I love that kind of stuff Aerosmith had that it was it makes a skill shot so much fun when you when it's it's truly skill it's not hold left leopard plunge all the way and fast no right right it is truly a skill shot so and it's not soft plunge catch it on the flipper and then shoot a ramp so when it comes to checking the boxes of layout I'm going to say no it doesn't get that box check but when it comes to toys and mechs surprisingly now it all could change based on when you're playing maybe a Mech doesn't do what you wanted to but surprisingly I'm going to definitely check mark all of the different mechs and shot variations because of Max and toys going on in this game absolutely do you think a lot of buyer potential buyers will when they look though that they see it because again Scopes they see that is why you're getting the we're getting the response we do like it's like clockwork you can you can judge whether or not a game is going to be loved initially loved later and one of the things is a big moldable big identifiable bash toy something big right there this does not have that so it may it may take playing for people to to get that now this isn't part of a toys or mechs but I do have to give a shout out to the Le package here because we we do get a beautiful trimmed it's like a metallic dark blue powder coat on this Le which I've been wanting blue for a while the stern has not done blue and for a while for the LA this is why I'm excited to get an Ellie now keep in mind I I haven't I haven't kept in a Stern Le for a couple releases now I'm excited to unbox an Ellie I know it's Dwight so the code is usually what I like but that trim package and can we not say thank you to Stern Pinball for putting have they ever put mirror blades in a game these look I think they're me I I can't remember these are like them doing it and mirror blades it looks phenomenal looks so good instead of just your art blades you've got art blades over a mirror blade um looks it looks fantastic and then all the other standard accoutrement like the uh the Shaker Motors the mirrored back glass that kind of stuff but the art blades and the powder coat are what really sealed the deal for me personally for Ellie here okay and we forgot the oh my God Dennis we forgot one of the biggest toys in Mex in the whole game to differentiates the premium Le from the pro dangly guy the dangly ganger yeah yeah um dangle game yeah hanging targets um what is up with Brian Eddy and his his uh what do they call that in the back here throughout the uh you you've uvula you you brought this up like two a couple episodes ago and I I don't remember but yeah the hanging targets what is that I don't know I mean I I don't know if people are gonna like it or not I like how it flips out it's very it's very Zechariah pinball so uh that's so cool like that Italian manufacturers who I think of when I think of hanging targets um historically I think I don't have a hands-on experience with them I think there have been complaints about how well they hold up obviously these are not the same as what were done in the 80s so this is the razor Crest man I just I don't know how satisfying they are to play with so I'm I'm very curious I want to try them out because it's it's it's interesting to me but I just don't know I just reminded us Dracula on Monster Bash how it comes out whoa It's like six yeah it's just and the little sculpt of him is so yeah you gotta get him I like adorable I like his little spider butt yeah he's just like I'm just I'm trying here but you know I I I can guarantee you this ever all the pro buyers are gonna be hitting me up hey can we order that little thing everybody's gonna love that doppelganger figure because it is pretty cool with those little arms like a spider but yeah him coming out and then you hitting him I like that there's dedicated inserts under that so it shows because I do like that as a good touch that's really cool and I would bet I would venture to say let me look at the overhead here yep wonderful design and very nicely done design team for lining up those targets to also play through the shots on the fan those three shots of those uh dangle targets they lead to three of the main shots on the on the game so that's nicely done I'm intrigued by that thing yeah no I want to try that it looks I'm actually I I think well as neat is uh you know changing the the shot returns and stuff is I think visually I'm I'm more curious about the hanging targets I think that'll be more more noticeable but what I think will it's a make or break will be the weight because he's setting them up like a pendulum type of thing and I don't think it'll have the weight that I would like to have seen on the ends of those things like a crane captive ball type I see what you mean like the razor Crest didn't really have you didn't feel that weight like you do the Bell on AC DC so I don't know if it's going to be as pleasing as it could have been there well it does look like from the image there may be a little bit of distance underneath them that we could hang our own little bells on the inside or add some weights there or put the bells right behind them I don't I just want I just want to hear more bells oh we should have more Bells the ringing of the dingles see this is surprisingly pretty packed rules okay now this is where I get those tingly Spider Sense feelings it's Dwight Sullivan so I'm already kind of intrigued but if you read through and there's no way that we can even go through the rule sheet on this because we'll bore everybody but the rule sheet is 30 something pages and I think not only is it for me Dennis not only is this a check mark on this uh criteria that we've set forth but it is easily maybe even more so than our easily like the this thing bleeds through with this check mark four or five pages under it like they are going for something here code wise and rules wise that I don't think has ever been done in pinball I think that Dwight and a team are aiming for something totally different how that ends up working out I don't know but that is exciting as hell for me there's so many different out of the box type of thinking for this rule set it reminds me of a video game very much an old Shoot Em Up or RPG kind of systems Mortal Kombat kind of thing uh almost like the the maximum or what Total Carnage smashing McCartney whatever that game was back in the 90s oh that's interesting a lot of different paths that you can take this isn't a here's your modes here's your three main multi balls here's your wizard mode this this breaks through any of that thinking and like a spider web weaves in and out of different ways to do all types of things I'm extremely excited about this now it could be like Dwight's done stuff in the past where he has taken big swings big risks you know uh The Foundry system I think worked whereas Game of Thrones didn't work for me as much so this could fall flat on his face for me as a user but damn I love that these these risks of trying to evolve an entire industry with one game rule set that is so cool it's I I do think the rules are the most interesting part of the entire release and so it will be it will be interesting to see how well it resonates with the with the playing public I would simplify my description of it to being I I think it's basically Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles plus Mandalorian plus one but that plus one is Big it's not it's not it's not to be linear math what do I mean by the plus one is it seems like and this was more in Turtles than Mandalorian but the Gathering of the XP and stuff kind of like how you could level the turtles but at this point the next step is an element that I'd actually compare more to the roguelike genre of games so we're talking things like Hades is one I talk about a lot but uh Binding of Isaac is perhaps one of the most famous ones Rogue is of course one of the uh Rogue is the original which is why there are roguelikes but because it seems like you know again you can choose your house or choose your turtle you choose your symbiote but as you go along if I'm understanding the idea behind this besides the changes about what's going on with the Playfield shots and stuff some of those things you touched on there's also this idea that you're You're Building these up you're leveling up these characters and then when you go into the battle modes in the game because you've built up your character through Insider connect it's remembering your progress you become more and more powerful which is very much a roguelike principle you play a roguelike you die there's certain carryover things that then allow you to be better at the game uh both your learning you're getting better based off of skill but you're also getting better abilities in the software so you're actually able to win the game unlock you another host and then you can keep going and so that PL that's to me the plus one true roguelike in-depth progression in pinball something that we've seen a little bit of that I think flirted with on the P3 platform we've seen hints of it from Stern with things like turtles and like the training program but to actually allow that progress to simplify in a notable way your ability to quote unquote beat the game I my guess and we don't know we don't know how to land for homeowners and home progression I think this very much could be a direction that the company decides to go in because that's where you have recurring replayability and it doesn't matter that you're not necessarily becoming a ray day yourself as a pinball player your character strength is going to allow you to see more and more of the game if you just stick with it yeah and keep that I think keep achieving very powerful very powerful to people because the biggest frustration people get is like if you play let's say you got Stern Star Trek we're not getting the five-year missions act no no we're not we're never going to no so but if I could if Kirk could level up maybe and so then I don't have to make like 12 shots to get through level three Nero I could make two shots that's so that's so interesting that that leveling it is it is I again I've seen I think Stearns flirted with it before and I've seen a few others uh you know try and do or play around in these Realms the idea of Saved progress and stuff but to actually implement it implement it in a major release uh Far and Away the most exciting thing about this game the only thing is one will it resonate with homeowners sure I think it has a decent chance and then the other aspect of course is how does that correspond with the enjoyment of the people that are trying to Route the games and operate them where like again in tournaments and stuff that stuff's got to be turned off so yeah so which is okay I think that's okay as long as the rules are balanced turning it off in theory shouldn't upset tournament people I don't know how it impacts like casual location play that's really the area that I'm curious about as well yeah but anyway very exciting I think this is a very exciting uh decision I actually uh I really like the decision I know a lot of like people who play competitive they tend to favor certain other coders where else that's more and having Raymond on coach is probably comforting to them but Dwight has clearly been flirting with the idea of progression basis and experience points for a long time and I think it's a logical realm given how much of this hobby is homeowner at this stage it's just it's it's the it's the I think it's the right path to go down I think it's a very exciting and interesting path you I couldn't have stated it better than you their dentist but also knowing that he will take those risks and those wild swings he himself has developed as Dwight Sullivan has developed uh complex board gaming systems as well so that's where his heart is that's where his vision is but then when you combo him up or you know what uh theme wise here I think it's appropriate when you team up with Ray day who is arguably one of the greatest pinball players of all time for that balance and and competitive skill based uh details that's where this whole project is is going to balance itself out very well and I don't even because they're taking swings like this I don't anticipate it being perfected in this title but if it moves us steps ahead in what pinball could become with this Venom title then I am all for it and and we didn't even touch on that we're there's team ups in here those team ups are based on whoever you pick initially let's not forget listener this might be the most dynamic selling point of any pinball machine ever when you choose your character it changes physical elements of the pinball machine it changes shots Because of Who You Picked whether it's Peter Parker whether it's Eddie Brock Gwen Stacy yeah yeah or Flash Thompson yeah change the Playfield for that ball and you get to pick between each Bowl the different characters or the different hosts that you want and then throughout progress of the game you get to even play a venomized host there are three different venomized characters that can be I love this word unlocked it tells us a lot of stuff too and those unlocked characters are venomized Hulk venomized Wolverine venomized Captain America another unlocking system level system this may be the most well integrated Insider connected game in existence until right into the next one yeah it's uh and then the unlocking isn't it's not a paid DLC thing that's for beating the final boss in the game so it's progression based is the it's at least the current outline so yeah in a way uh when I when I read about these rules I really wondered when the when Brian Eddy was working on this layout how closely was he working with the coding team because it seems like the decision to maybe issue the idea of having you know like a major Venom head with a tonguey sticking out and instead cramming in so many shots and having the play field changing that it was all part of the strategy to implement this style of rule set the idea that the that hey the Symbiotes can move you know they shift and form what if the play field shifts and forms and how can the rules lend service to that layout it seems very much like the layout is actually uh enthralled to the rule set in this case but I wouldn't be surprised at the outline of the rules predated the layout I'm curious if that's true or not maybe I'm wrong behind the scenes I do know a little bit Insider info I do know that when it comes to Brian Eddy he is very open to uh to collaboration with the coding team and the rest of the design team he has been known for that he will allow people to come in and and take some leads on even some of his Design Elements he's so super open to that and I think that probably stems back from he himself coming from a programming background we forget like yeah yeah he was a software engineer before he was Indiana Jones I think that was uh that was a Brian Eddy so he has I I would say he has a video game mindset he would understand what he came from video games but when he came back from the video game industry and uh well so we could geek out it's there's so many different cool way there's multiple wizard modes there's multiple mini wizard modes there's all kinds of stuff I'm not even going to get into it but we can't move on from code and rules without mentioning the return of a video mode no Dwight you know how I feel about your Star Wars video mode not a fan so you don't like the you don't like the asteroids nope I actually like the asteroids uh okay I never figured out the Game of Thrones one where you were dueling with the swords though yeah that one yeah me and Dwight every time we're hanging out or get together at a pinball event we end up always at some point arguing like loudly at one another about that video mode in Star Wars I actually I actually like the it's not my favorite my favorite Remains the wolves and Brom circles Dracula that one's great I like the Shadow the asteroids okay I thought it was intuitive take a hit from from Brian Eddy give me the Shadow with the purpose where you're going left and right gotta get the extra ball don't get hit by the yeah I like that stuff so this is a a video mode based on Scream you guys if you're if you're buying this game it's probably because you are super stoked about this code and Rule set because it looks and seems insane looks nuts okay are we missing anything no I think what about the animation display even that the little uh a couple days ago they had the animation display everybody's like no not avengers still motion and then they're like nope look what Stern has evolved into this is this is beautiful artwork that is animated so it it looks phenomenal it's almost it's not quite that 16 bit but it's along those lines uh maybe like a what does Sega Genesis mean like a 32x remember that oh I see what you're saying well still platformy yeah 2D yeah initial reaction that I saw on it was pretty positive from people people loved that yeah visually they did love that and I think it looks I think it looks phenomenal as well so for me coding rules we bled through four or five pages with our Sharpie on that check mark and animation thus far gets a big old giant check mark all around this game is looking stunning to me at first glance I was very hesitant now I'm getting more and more excited especially with the thought of myself opening up a Venom Le for my own collection but we I've went on pin side a little bit today because order days launch days are so hectic for me but I Breeze through that breeze through the Discord real quick there is some strong opposition to this game thus far what are the big critiques Dennis layout uh yeah I like the toys and I haven't looked I've been actually I had to schedule I had to schedule this recording because I had a day full of work so I I'm not up on I've seen some of the Discord discussions which have mostly been positive but the discords I've been in have some very big venom fans in it so okay I would say maybe if anything the theme in itself the integration we'll see you know how well that does but the theme in and of itself it's not like this crazy awesome theme for me I I wasn't a comic book kid uh nor was I comic book adult so I just know Venom from the artwork and from the video games and just from the pop culture of Venom which I'm a fan of I like that but I'm not a die hard but it's not a theme that turns me off like some of the recent banned like okay fine I'm just not a rush fan so I don't give a [ __ ] if Rush theme is in my game room and you know how important thing is to me Dennis I know it's not as important to you but to me it is in venom I can love on some Venom that'll look great next to my Spider-Man Vault Dennis I think we gave people plenty to think about and to to look over and to get excited about when it comes to stern Pinball's Venom well it's always exciting when there's a new game release I do look forward to getting to try it but since I'm not you know personally playing to buy it because I you know the theme doesn't resonate with me and I'm not really in the market right now I I don't know that I'll actually get to have a lot of in-depth exposure to this the rule set and I think the home environment's really going to be the only ideal way to do that so unfortunate but I I'll hear Through the Grapevine whether or not it's resonated and we'll know uh whether or not it's resonated if Stern continues to go down that path you know this will look really good next to a Deadpool as well I think yeah that's true well I mean all zombie stuff kind of looks good currently Deadpool is is beautifully flanked By Buck Rogers and Hoops oh yeah tie your shoes Ed damn all those untied shoes I'm just gonna go in there with a sharpie and tie them for them in closing for me I I've just we haven't perfected this new structured system of grading games but looking at it if we if we take our shots layout mechs toys code and rules animation display theme in general that's six it's Loosely six and I gave four big old check marks to those six that we were talking about the two that I have not checked yet was layout and theme in general those checks can be taken away those checks can be added but very Loosely until I make a concrete system this one seems like it's going to fit very well in my collection and hopefully we'll see it streaming this next week live from Comic-Con that's true and Joel Engelbert will have one soon enough over at flipping out pinball streaming so go like follow subscribe there and if you're looking to purchase your very own Venom pinball machine please do so from flipping out pinball my pinball and arcade Distribution Company all you've got to do is go to flip in outpinball.com that's flip the letter N Out pinball.com or you can email z-a-c-h at flip the letter N Out pinball.com or text me 812-457-9711 oh and we have first run premium model spots available and I believe at the time of this recording do we have a couple Venom Le spots available more details can be found at flippingoutpinball.com or by emailing or texting me today like right now do it for all of you that are part of the pinball show official club membership [ __ ] thank you you sexy beast to you man you know what Dennis I almost I want to host them if you know what I mean I don't to end you all with the words of Venom that power it's not completely awful and always practice safe pinball and dingleganger up foreign