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Episode 321: Pinball Expo 2021 recap

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·52m 17s·analyzed·Nov 5, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Pinball Expo 2021 recap featuring homebrews, new releases, and industry interviews.

Summary

Pinball Profile's 2021 Expo recap features interviews with homebrew creators (Ryan McQuaid's Sonic, Joel's Boys Night Out), designers (Brian Eddy on Mandalorian, Rick Nagel on Godzilla), and American Pinball staff discussing Legends of Valhalla. The episode captures community reunions post-pandemic at the new Schaumburg location and highlights the breadth of pinball activity from commercial releases to grassroots projects.

Key Claims

  • Sonic the Hedgehog Pinball homebrew by Ryan McQuaid was a major draw at Expo and held up well under extended gameplay

    high confidence · Ryan McQuaid confirmed the game was receiving consistent play and positive reception from attendees

  • Legends of Valhalla deluxe edition allocation increased from 300 to 200+ units due to international distributor feedback

    high confidence · Michael Grant stated they bumped allocation due to international distributors being excluded by 6 p.m. Eastern release timing

  • Legends of Valhalla was completed in 10 months from conception to Expo release

    high confidence · David Fix directly stated 'in 10 months we brought this baby to fruition'

  • Brian Eddy was absent from pinball design for approximately 20 years before returning with Stranger Things and Mandalorian

    high confidence · Eddy stated 'I was the Where's Waldo of pinball designers for 20 years, I think' due to pinball's downturn

  • Stern pinball games typically take 12-14 months from start to finish

    high confidence · Brian Eddy stated timeframe: 'anywhere from probably 12 to 14 months is what we usually work on'

  • Mandalorian licensing was kept quiet and surprised the community

    high confidence · Eddy confirmed 'we were able to keep it pretty quiet' and characterizes it as 'out of nowhere'

  • Rick Nagel and Jeremy Packer are credited as co-designers on Godzilla alongside Keith Elwin

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis credited both for Godzilla work; Jeremy Packer and Rick Nagel confirmed details about early code development

  • Joel's Boys Night Out homebrew is based on a movie that Joel wrote, co-directed, and shot

    high confidence · Joel stated 'the 411 so this is a movie that i wrote co and shot' with all scenes and video from his film

Notable Quotes

  • “It's just, it makes a sense of pride that we can deliver something with the great quality than American Pinball and the serviceability that we have.”

    David Fix @ Not provided — Reflects American Pinball's quality standards and team pride in Legends of Valhalla

  • “I was the Where's Waldo of pinball designers for 20 years, I think. But, yeah, I always loved pinball.”

    Brian Eddy @ Not provided — Eddy reflects on his two-decade absence from pinball design before returning

  • “Me and Dwight don't talk, so you can't get anything out of us.”

    Brian Eddy @ Not provided — Explains how Stern kept Mandalorian licensing announcement secret

  • “If anyone out there has the power to do that, hire me. I will move to Chicago and make you excellent games.”

    Ryan McQuaid @ Not provided — McQuaid's aspirational statement about wanting to become a professional game designer after Sonic success

  • “I would go with Led Zeppelin. It's a new lighter stern cabinet.”

    Tim Lee @ Not provided — Casual aside about cabinet selection in the 'soapbox derby' hypothetical

Entities

Ryan McQuaidpersonSonic the Hedgehog SpinballgameLegends of ValhallagameBrian EddypersonThe MandaloriangameGodzillagameRick Nagelperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball faced timing logistics challenge with 6 p.m. Eastern release excluded international distributors from Legends of Valhalla allocation window

    high · Michael Grant explains decision to adjust allocation: 'due to that, 6 p.m. Eastern, East Coast, it wasn't really fair to our international distributors'

  • ?

    community_signal: American Pinball increased Legends of Valhalla deluxe allocation from 300 to 200+ units based on international distributor feedback

    high · Michael Grant: 'due to that, we'd rather have 200 happy customers first and get their games than 200 unhappy customers'

  • ?

    event_signal: Poor Man's Pinball Podcast community assembled 15-20 members at Expo for first in-person meetup since podcast's existence

    high · Glenn Wechter confirms 'I saw about 20 of you' and they had group dinner the previous night

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Legends of Valhalla praised for balancing beginner accessibility with expert depth across 16 legend battles

    high · Stephen Bowden and Josh Kugler emphasize layered rules design; players observed progressing quickly but finding challenge by battle 9-10

  • ?

    event_signal: Chicago Pinball Expo 2021 in new Schaumburg location successfully hosted post-pandemic in-person gathering with strong attendance

    high · Jeff Teolis describes 'pretty packed expo' and multiple references to large number of attendees playing machines continuously

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.157

0:00
It's time for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teolas. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com, past episodes, all your subscriptions. We're also on Facebook. We're on Twitter and Instagram at pinballprofile. You can email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. It was the first time I went to the United States in almost two years. It's been a long time. But if you have to pick a place to go to, and you happen to love pinball, there was no better place to go to than the Pinball Expo just north of Chicago. New hotel, new location in Schaumburg, Illinois. Missed a lot of our European and Australian friends that couldn't make the trip, but it was still a pretty packed expo. A chance to play new games, a chance to see friends you haven't seen in a long time, make some new ones as well. Here are some of those people of Pinball Expo. I love the homebrews and it's nice to see them here at Expo. Probably the one most people are dying to see is Sonic the Hedgehog Spinball. And Ryan McQuaid's the guy behind it. Boy, you've had a lineup here and people are certainly enjoying that game. It's got to be nice to see. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic to see it out there and people having fun on it. And it's holding up great. I was, you know, everyone who's bringing a game that they've made from scratch at home is sitting here terrified that their game is going to break down and being all embarrassed, even though you know no one minds. But it's still just an awesome feeling to have people walking up and playing it, and I see them get genuinely happy and amused by stuff, and I'm just like, oh, man, this is everything I hoped it would be. So I really hope it just keeps holding up and people keep liking and playing it, and I'm really proud to be in a lineup of so many other projects like this, like Metroid and the from-scratch-built Black Knight. Are you kidding me? I know. It's amazing. I've heard a lot of people that do the homebrews just praise pinball life. And Scott Denise certainly meant a lot to him. Scott Gullix with Legends of Valhalla, now with American. And when you are plotting out to make a homebrew, obviously you've got the theme in mind. But figuring out, okay, where do I start? And I can't imagine the time management on something like this. So, I don't know if you had a chance to catch my seminar, but that's one of the things we talked about is getting started and what's the best way to get going. So for me, I was able to find the free pinball platform, Visual Pinball. And so I was able to learn that, and I was able to play with it and try to design a game without having to spend any money. And so when I had something there that I was really proud of, and I was like, I like playing this, this is awesome, I'm like, all right, it's time to build it. So I just said, all right, well, what do I got to do next? I got to get a play field. So I got some wood from my friend Mark Seiden of Metroid Pinball. He came over to one of my restoration parties, which I do whenever I finish a restoration. Everybody would come play it. And he came over and he just plopped some wood down in front of me and said, here you go, get going. And it's got to be nice to see Mark now with Jersey Jack. So maybe Ryan. I'm so incredibly proud of him, and he is living the dream, and I hope to follow in his footsteps. So if anyone out there has the power to do that, hire me. I will move to Chicago and make you excellent games. There you go, an audio resume, if you will. The resume is right there. It's physical. It's right in front of you. You can play the resume. that's right sonic the hedgehog spin ball available here at expo and who knows maybe mass produced someday we hope we hope here's hoping all right all the best buddy thank you so much is there anything this guy cannot do pinball ambassador uh changes ceiling lights uh without a ladder true and oh game designer of jurassic park pin jack danger oh my god it's great to see it it's so good to see you too and you know what you and i obviously know the conversation we had when this came out right i said well done holy cow is this machine packed and i said the only thing i can think of negative the only thing yeah is it doesn't have a coin box because operators are going to want this i'm dead serious yeah it's that good of a game hey man i do appreciate it was it was a fun experiment to take the the star wars home game their building materials and reimagine what that home game could look like instead of just another re-theme and i put a lot of crap into this but i fought for every single screw that you see on this play field So this is new for you, obviously having to work with a bill of materials. I look at this, and I'm like, wow, I can't see where you cut corners. Right, and that's what I was hoping to accomplish. I built this game in virtual pinball, visual pinball first, so I could play it. This game is about 90% what I originally thought of. I tried some weird little mechanisms over here that I spent a lot of time on. They didn't work, and I'm like, this is stupid. Let's just put a cool ramp here instead. I remember when you were doing the Dead Flip homebrew and you and Ed Owens were getting together. And that was kind of nice. We know Ed from Ghost in the Shell. Yep. And it was fun to watch that process. I'm fascinated by homebrews. It's a lot. And I remember you saying something that Gomez gave you some tips. In fact, gosh, this is going back two years ago. I was at Dead Flip for the Pinball Profile World Tour. After I broke the door. Sorry about that. You had to move. I moved. but I remember you saying that's the original whitewood because some of the inserts are in the wrong spot yeah you really learned a lot in a short period of time there was an alarming stuff that I I had some bad habits coming from homebrew and I learned a lot of things and George just his idea of like how to bend metal to make the ball faster or like where a shot comfortably lives and such like there's so much that he gave me but also like Steve Ritchie came over and he like gave me as cad to make sure everything was looking good and playing right. Keith Owen would come over and play the game and be like, this shot feels great. This shot feels kind of weird. What if you did this? So it was a team effort to help me get to this point. Well, what you and Wason did is amazing, and I can only imagine this is going to be under a lot of people's Christmas trees, and it will be sold for years to come. So congratulations once again, buddy. My man, I appreciate it, Jeff. Thank you. If you're Glenn Wechter, you've probably got a bit of a dilemma on your hands because Chicago Expo is here. This guy is a Wisconsin native. He's been wearing a lot of Brewer stuff. Sorry about the loss in the playoffs there. But he's also got a big event going on in Nashville this weekend. What wins? Coming to Expo, seeing a bunch of the tribe members from the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast. How are you doing, Glenn? I'm doing great, Jeff. Thanks for talking to me tonight. So you're sitting in the tournament area right now. You're watching this big flip-out tournament. And any regrets not playing? I wish I played, but I didn't know what I'd be getting into. So I decided I'd give it a little bit of a break playing tournaments, experience the full show, got to see Cactus Canyon, got to see a lot of the other games all connected with Scorebit, connected with Insider Connect, and a lot of the expo booths have been nice to visit with people and see all the things they're selling. I think the next big show I'll be playing in a tournament for sure. What will the next show be? For myself, I'm thinking I'll probably come up to maybe either TPF in what, February? that is March. I might do that. If not, it'll probably wind up being back up here or MGC next year. Okay. It's a pretty good show. I'm impressed. It's a different area. We haven't been here before. Of course, it was virtual last year. What do you think of the new facility? It's my first time at an expo, but I can't say enough for how impressed I've been with the restaurant that's here on location. Everybody's been really kind. There's been lots of room, lots of space to get around. Lots of machines on free play. It's been phenomenal. You say restaurant, but be honest. Do you mean bar?
Jeremy Packer
person
Keith Elwinperson
American Pinballcompany
David Fixperson
Scott Gullixperson
Frank Giolottiperson
Josh Kuglerperson
Michael Grantperson
Dwight Sullivanperson
Boys Night Outgame
Joelperson
Mirandaperson
Chicago Pinball Expo 2021event
Stephen Bowdenperson
Poor Man's Pinball Podcastorganization
Tim Leeperson
Glenn Wechterperson
Jeff Teolisperson
?

licensing_signal: Disney was collaborative licensing partner on The Mandalorian; extensive asset availability enabled rich design implementation

high · Brian Eddy: 'Disney was great to work with on this' and 'we were able to keep it pretty quiet' regarding assets

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Stephen Bowden hired as 'pinball ambassador' at American Pinball, described as industry expert

    high · Jeff Teolis describes Bowden as 'true pinball ambassador, a person who knows more about pinball than most people' and American Pinball team confirms hiring

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Brian Eddy's return to pinball after 20-year absence signals renewed industry momentum and licensing opportunities

    high · Eddy: 'pinball had a downturn. And so I did other things. And pinball started to have a resurgence. And I was super excited to come back'

  • ?

    announcement: The Mandalorian pinball by Stern kept secret until announcement; received strong early feedback at Expo

    high · Brian Eddy: 'Mandalorian was out of nowhere' and 'we were able to keep it pretty quiet'

  • ?

    product_concern: Godzilla in early code at Expo with feedback on city selection mechanics still being refined

    high · Rick Nagel acknowledges city selection feedback and states 'I don't know yet so we'll get those in there pretty soon'

    • 7:35
    Well, yeah, I had one beer at the bar, but I've kind of taken it easy so far. I don't want to be Drew in a bathroom trying to find Zach Minney. That's where legends were born right here, for crying out loud with Drew from Poor Man's. But it's nice to see you, and I hope things are going well for you in Nashville. Yeah, man, I appreciate that. Nashville's a growing scene. Tennessee's got a lot of great players. and I just want to shout out to my fellow poor man from the Pinball Podcast and the tribe members. You guys are like family. It's been amazing hanging out with you this weekend. And I miss Ian. I hope Ian is doing well and we see him around again soon. All right, big shout out to Ian. I mean, I saw about 20 of you. Yeah, I think we got 15 to 20. We all had dinner last night. That was just the paddy wagon. Yeah, the paddy wagon. And, of course, Tim Lee decides that he wants to show up with a laser light show and a smoke show. and he speaks a big game, but at the end of it, we're all just hanging out and having fun. Thanks, Glenn. Thanks. If you go to the Stern booth, 20 maybe Godzillas plus other places here at Chicago Expo. And, you know, Keith Owen gets all the praise, and I've got to tell you, I'm absolutely sick of it because, really, who was behind Godzilla? That would be Rick Nagel, who's here, and Zombie Eddie himself, Jeremy Packer. Hey, Rick, how are you? Hey, pretty good. How are you doing? Good. And, Jeremy, you've got to put out a dead one of these days. I think I need to stop before people get sick of me. That's probably what needs to happen. Now, when you hear people talk about Godzilla, what are the things that kind of catch your ear? I mean, compliments are nice, but you also want constructive criticism. So, Rick, we're in early code here. When you're hearing people talk about Godzilla, what are the things that go, oh, okay, maybe? uh well the cities people go to the city's uh selection and they're like what's going on with those and i'm like i don't know yet so we'll get those in there pretty soon just keep godzilla away from toronto okay or anywhere in canada that's that's all i ask and with you some sweet easter eggs i saw in there that was pretty funny yeah so i had time on this one i i think avengers which was like, what, we had like five or six months by the time I came in. So I didn't get as much time on that one. But on this one I had like the full schedule. And Keith, despite being dreamy, you know, like he's dreamy. If you look in his eyes, he's dreamy. And besides that, I was able to actually get some stuff done. And this whole team is always super easy to work with. I would prefer to only work with them, nothing against everyone else that I work with and will continue to work with. But they make everything super easy. I mean, it's just all support. It's a great power team, no question about it. You know, Rick and Jeremy, and of course, I guess Keith, too, with the design. And the dreamy eyes. And those dreamy eyes. Oh, I've got to tell you this, Rick. Elwin knows this. The first time I saw Jurassic Park was at Hinberg years ago. And he knows I'm a competition player. And he said, hey, whenever you see goats on the screen, start hammering that action button. and I did for about a half a year. I'm like, I don't think anything's happened, and he just laughed and laughed. That son of a you-know-what.
    10:46
    Yeah, it was pretty funny. We had actually thought about doing something like that, so he went out there and passed that out there, but we never got around to it. No, there's so much good stuff in there, and Godzilla, I mean, when you have those kind of shots to work with and all these different opportunities and all the movies and the assets in there, pretty amazing. Yeah, it's a really sweet layout. Like the first time we ever flipped it, it was fun. I think you guys have to head because you've got a seminar to go. Rick, well done. Thank you very much. Thank you. And always a pleasure, Jeremy. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. And don't forget Keith Elwin. The reason why he gets all the credit is his dreamy eyes.
    11:28
    Thanks, guys. On the last Pinball Profile, we heard Scott Gullix, we heard Frank Giolotti talk about Legends of Valhalla. Well, a lot of people finally have had a chance to play it here at Chicago Expo, the great American pinball booth with all their wonderful games. Joining me right now, Michael Grant. We've got Josh Kugler and the one, the only, David Fix. Michael, I saw you first play this game on the stream with Stefan and then, of course, with Jack Danger on Deadflip. You had to love what was going on in the chat. You know, the response was great. It's a great shooting game, arguably our best shooting pinball ever. It's fast. It's mean. Absolutely. It's a pleasure to work with Frank and Scott on the game. And Josh, I know you like to see what happens when people are playing it on location, certainly on streams, but you had so many people play these machines here at Expo. What did you learn from people playing it? Well, we saw that people were able to pick up on the rules really quickly and understand what was going on. They were finding the shots right away, which I think is a really nice thing about this game. It's very friendly when you step up to it. But if you watch the stream we did and you saw Steve, you also can tell that there's some real strategy and other things going in there. So, you know, balance is what's always most important to me in a game. And I think that Frank has really got a nice balance there of easy shots, hard shots, easy aspects to the rules. but yet some layers there with some strategy there for those tournament guys to really figure out where there a real few pockets of really large points if you learn how to kind of work the game and get there And David this is the first game released since you been employed with American Pinball How are you feeling, especially since you really pushed hard to bring on Scott and Frank? I feel very proud of the entire team because you think about it, in 10 months we brought this baby to fruition. Everybody loves it. It's just, it makes a sense of pride that we can deliver something with the great quality than American Pinball and the serviceability that we have. Not only that, bringing it here, we were able to see that she held up beautifully under a lot of gameplay from a lot of players, and they all enjoyed it, from even the professionals to even the other game designers who have came and told me we hit it out of the park. No question about it. And, Michael, I know when it was first announced, the deluxe edition, there were going to be 300, but because of the time of when it was released, A lot of people in Europe, a lot of people in Australia didn't get their chance on it, and you heard from distributors, hey, hey, what about us? So I was glad to see you bump that up. Absolutely. The response from the public on this game was remarkable. And due to the timing, you know, 6 p.m. Eastern, East Coast, it wasn't really fair to our international distributors. So due to that, we'd rather have 200 happy customers first and get their games than 200 unhappy customers. So we're thrilled for the response, and we look forward to everyone getting their games. For sure, and seeing the demand, you would have had a lot more, so this is going to be a highly sought-after deluxe edition, too. I heard Josh, I heard you say, and I think it was even in the seminar, when people asked, how's the code? Is it done? And you had a great answer, is the code ever done? But I've got to say, this game's code looks like it's done. Well, I think all the rules that are in there, the wizard modes, all of that's really in the game at this point. I think what you're going to see Frank continue to work on is the choreography a little bit, getting a little more moments in the game. There's some great moments. One of the things we want to see Frank do is just bring those out a little bit more because there's a lot going on in the game. So, yeah, it's certainly everything is in there that's planned to be in there, but I think you'll see some fine-tuning of things based on all the gameplay that Frank got to watch over the last couple of days. I certainly can't talk about American Pinball without mentioning maybe one of the greatest additions you could have possibly ever done. Certainly Scott, certainly Frank. But you brought on a true pinball ambassador, a person who knows more about pinball than most people you'll find anywhere. And it's a great addition. Stephen Bowden is with American Pinball. And he just walked by. Stephen, congratulations, my friend. I am so happy to be here. And I am happy to be with American Pinball. and so very happy to see Legend of Valhalla being received so well by just about everybody here. I mean, every time I've come to the booth and been talking to people, they've been just commenting on how well the game plays, how it flows, how it punishes you just enough for your misses, how it really guides you along to battling those legends. And it really wants to take you on this journey, but also it will not, you know, kick gloves with you either. You have to really represent with your shots. But I know you, Steve, and you like to have something for the beginner and something for the expert. It looks like you've got that here. That's exactly right. This has the layering you need. Yes, this has the layering. So there's definitely those shots that can flow together where the beginner player can really start getting into the game. But then there's that point where the game is going to ask something from you. And you're going to tell that point where it's around battle 9 or 10, right, where we'll see who has the perseverance to press on to get to those 16 legends. and make it to Ragnarok. It's a tough challenge. I got to 13. I can't imagine getting to 16. When you got to 13, you start to feel it, right? You start to feel the pressure, right? You get harder. And Odin is telling you, right? He's guiding you along, right? Right, Odin? That Odin, that big mouth. That Odin. That Odin who's guiding you along and trying to get you to that final battle. And he's saying he's asking much of you. You've got to persevere and you've got to do it. I'm going to have to add some call-outs because I was getting embarrassed by being beaten by this game. Thank you so much. David, I'm going to end with you, David Fix. Do you know that on November 1st, 2021... What is that, your five-year chip? It's my five-year anniversary. Where's my chip, David? All right, all right. So you get a chip. Thank goodness you've finally been on the podcast for five years. I'm allowed to be podcasting? Yes, yes, yes. Oh, thank you, David. You're now allowed to have a critical thought. Wow. And give me your appearance and your thought. Yes. Congratulations. Five years. Wow. Thank you. David, Michael, Josh, Stephen, congratulations and well done at American Pinball. Thank you so much. And one more thing. If anyone wants to buy a game, although allocations have been distributed to distributors, if you really want a game, I think some distributors may have some left. So feel free to reach out to your local distributor. Sounds like a plan. Thanks, everybody. Thank you.
    18:12
    Ginger alert. They keep us in certain sections here at Expo. Tim Lee joins us. How are you, Tim? Hey, how are you doing? I'm doing fine. It's good to see you. You having fun at Expo? I'm having a blast. What's your favorite thing about Expo? The people. That is a good point because it's been so long since we've seen people in these masses. But who are some of your favorites? Go ahead.
    18:36
    Jeff Teolis. Okay, here's your money. Yep, yep. Rachel Lilge. Everybody in the Poor Man's Pinball Tribe. We absolutely love them. Hi, Rachel. How are you? Hey, I just figured since I'm his co-host, I'll come by and say hey. You should. Very nice to see you. By the way, an incredible job you did at District 82. Oh, gosh. And not just once, but like several days. Oh, stop embarrassing me, but thank you so much. It's so kind. I don't have to say it. I say it because I'm sincere. Oh, it makes me feel so humble. I've had so many people say something so kind and generous like that today, and it kind of makes me feel very humble and trying to figure out how to take that all in. So thank you. That really means a lot. And what's it like working with Tim? Tim, he sucks at pinball. I thought it was Drew who sucked. Yeah, Drew sucks at pinball. That's our joke on our podcast. But Tim Lee is such a kind person, and I am so lucky to meet him this week. It's really been mind-blowing. I'm so grateful for Tim. When you say meet him this week, is this the first time? Yes, we met for the first time on Thursday morning. So you've podcast and have met. That's so cool. I know others like that as well. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. So he's everything I believed he would be in person. What about me? I was just telling him. He asked who my favorite was. I said Jeff Teolis won, Rachel too. He did? Oh, okay. He did. Yeah, and everybody else in the Poor Man's Pinball Tribe? A distant third. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We all actually planned on getting together here to meet each other for the first time. And I saw like 20 of you go around, so that was very cool. I'm going to say hi to somebody else here. I see Rebecca Salem, who made it all the way up from Texas. How are you, Rebecca? It was great. We drove. It was very long and very bumpy. I actually had a question. I have a question for you, and I have a question for Tim if this is his episode. Sure, go ahead. Okay, so if you were in, and Tim, this is a question for you too. If you guys were in a soapbox derby race, like a pine dot box derby race, You know, where you go down the hill and you're in the little box. Are you on the Little Rascals? What are you talking about? Okay. But instead of a car, it was a pinball cabinet. What pinball cabinet would you guys do a soapbox derby in? Including the back box. Do you want it for speed? This is up to you. Okay, I got my answer. I would go with Led Zeppelin. It's a new lighter stern cabinet. I'm going to go with the Centaur II cab. It's aerodynamic. So I'm going to go with something a little more lean, a little less wind resistant. What about you, Rachel? Lost world. Because I thought the same thing. It needs to be aerodynamic, but sturdy enough, but it should be light enough to have enough speed. So I'm right there with you. That's crazy. So are we going to hear questions like this on Fliptronic or on Backbox, Rebecca? Yes. So this is the question I have been asking everybody all weekend. because Bill Webb told me he would give me a pinball cabinet to, like, put wheels on and roll it around at, like, you know, in the parking lot, hopefully for Houston Expo. I don't know. Maybe TPF. We won't talk to Jordan about it. Nobody tell my insurance and definitely not my parents or my job. That's too funny. You know, we see the homebrews, but I think next year, whether it's here at Expo or at TPF, the soapbox derby pinball machines. Good idea, Rebecca. Great to talk to you. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you, Tim. Thank you so much. Take good care. Here with Brian Eddy, who has wowed people once again, this time recently with Mandalorian. A lot of people are here at Expo playing it, something for the first time because of the pandemic. Congratulations on another fantastic machine. All right. Thanks, Jeff. It's awesome. I had an amazing time working on it, and I'm glad everybody's loving the game. Yeah. I just talked with Dwight, gave him the same kudos, too. You work very well together, and a lot of assets in that game. That's nice to have that. Yes, it was awesome that we got so many assets. You don't get that on all the licenses, so we tried to make the most of it. Disney was great to work with on this. I have to tell you, a lot of the game titles that are coming out, you might have an idea this is coming, or people have talked about it. Godzilla, we knew when Stern got the license. Mandalorian was out of nowhere. Yeah, we were able to keep it pretty quiet. Me and Dwight don't talk, so you can't get anything out of us. No, but that's great and so much fun. So, obviously, Stranger Things before that, And then that lull. Where's Brian Eddy? He's just given us three of the greatest games of all time in Shadow and Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness. And you were out of it for so long. Were you chomping at the bit to get back in it? Yeah, I was the Where's Waldo of pinball designers for 20 years, I think. But, yeah, I always loved pinball. And, you know, pinball had a downturn. And so I did other things. And pinball started to have a resurgence. And I was super excited to come back. There's so much fun to work on. and especially with all the things you can now work with that you didn't have before. Yeah, yeah. All the ease of making games is so much better now than it was. Is it different, too, because the other three games, I know Shadow is a license, but the other two were, you know, whatever you kind of want to put in there in the kitchen sink, but you're kind of restricted, or is it beneficial to have that kind of guideline? Here's what you can work with. Yeah, you know, it's a plus and a minus. I love doing both original themes and licenses. The good thing about licenses is everybody knows what you're making. So you don't have to explain it or create some vision for people to try to understand it as you're creating it. Everybody knows. But then you've got to follow the license too, right? You can't do something really outside of it. And with the original thing, you can do anything you want. So there's a nice freedom with that, being able to do games like Medieval and Attack from Mars. That's really fun too. Just coincidentally, the big Stern booth here at Expo, massive display. but right beside it, Chicago Gaming.
    24:21
    You've, in some way, sold a lot of games to those people. Were you flattered? How do you feel when they're remaking these games? Yeah, you know, it's great to see people playing games that are over 20 years old that you made and still enjoying them. I think that's awesome. I had absolutely nothing to do with it, so I don't get anything from it. But it is great to see people still enjoying the games. We're all wondering what's next, and we'll have to wait and see. But how long does it take you to put together a game start and finish? anywhere from probably 12 to 14 months is what we usually work on give or take a lot of crazy stuff happens in pinball so you never know and because it's going to be a licensed team like so many of the stern games are i mean there's probably a lot of research i assume you're familiar with you know when you worked on mandalorian you probably were a big fan i know dwight certainly was is that a big part of that window just to make sure you're up to speed and not missing all the cool things of that life yeah it's definitely part of it and it's as much time as you can give it, right? Because some of these licenses are really deep. Some of them are a little more shallow.
    25:20
    But I like to really dive in heavy and get all those details that all the hardcore fans will get to the little points that we put in. So, yeah, I totally like to do that. I'll do it throughout the whole project, too. But the core at the beginning to really understand is where you spend the most time. I'm going to speak for everyone. I know it's rude of me to do, but I think it's safe to say we're all glad you're back in pinball, Brian. Thanks very much. Awesome. Thanks, Jeff. easily one of the highlights of every pinball expo is the homebrew section and we've seen them become amazing and we've got another one right here i'm looking at boys night out and joining me is joel and miranda and they not only created this pinball machine it's based on a movie they made joel give me the 411 what is this oh my gosh the 411 so this is a movie that i wrote co and shot So all the scenes in here the video orientation of everything is from me And then Miranda co the movie with me and helped produce it Miranda, whose idea was it to make a pinball machine? This was all Joel. He is quite the fanatic now. It's happened over the past few years. His love has progressed. And he's come to a point where he was like, this will be mine. This is my next project. So now he's trying to master the pinball world. I was going to say, it's one thing to have a big project like, oh, I'm going to make a movie. You said, oh, I'm going to make a movie and I'm going to make a pinball machine. I can imagine there's a lot of hours in both. I don't know which one required more time for you. My background's in film, so that became a little bit easier to make. And I made a few films, like, really low budget, micro budget is what they call them. So it's basically no budget. We're on a shoestring budget. You've seen Blair Witch? That was Joel. That was me. Thank you. We got a lot of crap for that movie. But you know what? We tried really hard, and we shot with film. Yeah. No, but seriously, so making the pinball machine, you said, was more difficult. I don't have a background in any of this. I don't know anything about coding. I don't know anything about lights. I don't know anything. I just knew I liked pinball, and I wanted to do... As soon as I saw... As soon as I got into pinball, sorry. I knew I wanted to make one. I was like, okay. But I didn't know how. I didn't have a way to implement this. But if it wasn't for Mission Pinball, I wouldn't have been able to do any of this, because I don't have any background in any of this. Okay, so I just flipped it. And I'm giving you my honest opinion here. I was playing with Joel. I was playing with Miranda. And it flipped very strong. The layout was perfect. The shots were laid out. I mean, still we're in the Whitewood stage. But there are lights and there's action. There's multi-balls. Ball save, which is obviously very important. But you've done quite well for a guy who's, oh, I don't know, knows nothing about pinball. You seem to do okay. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. But I've really only been into pinball for about four years. I know what I like in pinball games. I like flow. I like fast games. So that's everything. Like the scoops shoot out too fast for you. That's the way I like it. So I like zippy flippers. So you're complimenting me on how fast the flippers were. I like strong flippers. I like games that are tough to do something in. I don't want to finish a game really quick. I want to gradually learn how it goes and rolls. So again, this is based on Boys Night Out, which is a film made by Joel and Miranda. Dear Low Life and Popcorn Landfill are the names of the micro-budget movies we made. Gotcha. And then all the scenes in here are from this movie right here, Popcorn Landfill. What do you think for a pinball machine, Miranda? I mean, I think it's one of the best ones out there, of course.
    28:37
    It's fun. It's got everything. It's got movie clips that tell a story. It's got great light shows. It's got fun play. It's got great music, which we don't own, but we want to give a shout-out to Rat-A-Tat and Kid Cudi for letting us borrow it for a moment. But it's just all together, it's a very creative, fun, interactive project, and I'm very proud of him. You should be very proud. Congratulations. Thanks for bringing it to Expo, and you should bring this around to other places too and keep up with the pinball project because you've done very, very well. Thanks, Miranda. Thank you very much. Thank you, Joel. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Here he is from Jersey, Jack Pinball, coder, programmer, extraordinaire, Kiefer. It's Keith Johnson. Hi, Keith. How are you, buddy? I'm doing great, Jeff. How are you doing? It's nice to see you again. It's been a few years, and boy, think of the last time I saw you. I had no idea about Guns N' Roses coming and all the code you put in it. My goodness. Well done. Congratulations. Oh, thank you. And, you know, obviously it wasn't just me. You know, we had six people working on the game. But, yeah, it was a lot of work, and they came out great, and it's been our best-received game so far, and really happy with how it turned out. And the new facility, too, with different lines, that's got to be exciting for you. Oh, definitely. Having everything in one place is a godsend in terms of dealing with problems and keeping everything running smoothly. So it's really been a boon for us to have everything together in Elk Grove Village And it's easier to pilfer other designers, too, when they're just around the corner. Like, oh, I don't know, Steve Ritchie. Yeah, yeah. It was a little bit of a surprise to me at first. But, you know, I'm glad he's over there. And it's great to have him back. You know, I hadn't really interacted with him a whole lot, you know, the past 10 years or so. And, you know, we just felt right back into our old patterns, our old rhythms, like we hadn't really left. And, yeah, it's been great seeing him again and having him over there. Let me read between the lines, all right? Let me think of the old Steve Ritchie, Keith Johnson combinations. You heard it here first. On the next Jersey Jack game from Steve Ritchie, somehow, someway, the Kiefer Invitational will show up. Am I right?
    30:40
    It's probably unlikely on the next one, but, you know, we'll see. At some point, yeah, it might make a reappearance. And you've also got Mark Seiden, too. We've seen what he did with Metroid. So, Eric, Steve, Pat, Mark, you've got a lot of programming to do. Yeah, hopefully we'll start churning things out a little bit faster and we'll do our best to keep up with what the designers are putting out there and hopefully everyone will like the result. I think the next couple of games are shaping up to be really cool. I don't think you need to apologize for saying turning out things faster. We've all seen every single company. You ask any distributor, it's all about supply issues. There are back orders with every single company. It's unfortunate. It's just the times we are living in. But you feel confident if things get back to normal with these four designers, we're going to see a lot more and maybe a lot more often from Jersey Jack. Yeah, absolutely. You know, our goal is to keep making more and more games, and I think we're well on our way to making that happen. It's exciting that you've got this mix, the last two, you know, kind of the old guard, the new guard. You've been around the game for a little while, and we've seen all kinds of people come from all different walks. I mean, this year alone, let's think about it. Certainly, Mark coming on board with Jersey Jack. We saw Jack Danger, not exactly a new person, but he's got his Jurassic Park pin, and you've got, with Legends of Alhalla, Scott Gullickson, what Frank's doing. So it's pretty exciting to see this homebrew community, if you will, kind of really step it up to the mainstream. Yeah, no, it's been really interesting watching how those guys make stuff and, you know, springboard it into a career in here. I mean, you know, obviously everyone knew who Keith Owen was, but, you know, he kind of did the same thing with his Archer game. So what is Expo for Jersey Jack? A great chance for people to play all your different games, certainly see the Scorbit integration. What does it mean for Jersey Jack to be at Expo? Right, so this year, obviously we don't have anything new to announce, but we made a big presence with GNR and WACA. The two games are running on the line at the moment. We brought all of our old games. We brought one of each game in the free play area, so anyone can go and play them any time they want. And yes, I'd say the primary thing that we rolled out this expo was the ScoreBit integration with all the online achievements and keeping track of high scores and stuff like that. So it was great to work with those guys, and it was great to be able to show everyone what it is that we're doing and give a taste of the future. Well, I knew we would see ScoreBit originally with Guns N' Roses. What amazes me is that we've been seeing all these past titles get that scoreboard integration. That's something that I think came quicker than most expected. Well, we've been working on it for a while. So, yeah, we knew what we wanted to do, and we made an effort to try and get it done for this so that everyone would see what we're capable of. And not even all the achievements are in there yet. We just wanted to give people a taste of what it is we could do and what we will do. So even that stuff will improve from what's there right now. But we did want to get the proof of concept out there, and we wanted to show people that, you know, hey, there's some more fun to be had, and there's some more longevity to your game, even more than there is now. Well, I certainly like what they've done with Scorbet, and I don't know if it's because I'm cheap or not, but I do like that it's free and it's included. So thank you for that. Yeah, of course. I mean, yeah, for the older games, you've got to go buy a $15 dongle from Amazon. What? I know, but, you know, we're not really selling it, so we're just telling you where to go get it. Piece of cake, though. Yeah, exactly. You just plug it in and set your game up, and not only do you have score a bit, but you have Wi-Fi or online updates, and, yeah, it's really coming together. Let me say, Kiefer, long time coming, and, in fact, I actually thought it already had happened, But you were inducted into the Pinball Hall of Fame here at Pinball Expo. So congratulations and well earned. Thank you very much. It was a surprise. And Eric Meunier gave a very heartfelt induction, which is very cool to hear. And, yeah, it's kind of nice to be in. The story's not done yet, but it feels like it's been a while coming. But it's nice to have it happen. And, you know, I'd like to thank my family for putting up with my craziness. And I'm glad I took the chance to come up here over 20 years ago and try to make this dream happen. Well, you're right. The story is not done. But it's nice to be able to get that honor while you're still coding great games. And, in fact, if I keep you on here any longer, people are going to be saying, let him go. He's got stuff to do. You've got four designers now. He's got to start programming. Yeah. No, the next thing on my list right now is Halloween tomorrow. So after that... Thanks very much, and great talking to you once again. Thanks, Jeff.
    35:39
    The big flip-out tournament here is pretty impressive at Expo because there's a main, there's a classic, there's a women's, and none of this can be done without the great volunteers. Sammy Bacon from North Carolina has done a lot this weekend. Has it been fun? It's been a blast. This is my first Expo. I won the virtual Battle of the Bells, so that's how I have a ticket and wasn't going to let it go to waste. Well, this is a little different, right? A little bit. It's been fun. It's been in person, which is nice. Is it more stressful as a player or somebody organizing? That's an interesting question, and I don't really know. I just kind of jump in where I'm needed, and everything else happens around me. Tournaments don't exist without volunteers like yourself, Sammy, but it's very important. So give me some idea of the North Carolina scene. So we have a big scene in Raleigh, a big scene in Charlotte.
    36:31
    Big scene in the Triad, Greensboro, Winston-Salem, High Point. A lot of little places here and there. Lots of travel, lots of inner group playing. And the whole state is basically just one big scene. We all know each other. So my wife works for a company called Sass in Cary, North Carolina. So I get to go every now and then. Where are good places I should check out maybe in that area? So in Cary specifically, there's the neighborhood. They've got a handful of machines. We run every third Sunday tournament there. There are three boxcars across North Carolina, Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro. They're all great. We've got a lot of places. It's no shortage. Okay, if I get there, I'll give you a call. Maybe you can show me around. But I appreciate you helping out here at Flip Out and with the volunteers. And, again, it's much appreciated. So thanks very much, Sammy. Thank you. It's his first pinball show, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be his last because of the artwork he has done on so many things, specifically on Mandalorian. Randy Martinez joins us. Randy, first of all, congratulations on a spectacular package. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. The fans have been awesome. This has really been more than I could ever expect here at Pinball Expo. Now that you've got your taste of the pinball art, are you hooked and want to do more? Absolutely. It's a really cool crowd. I'm used to Comic-Con, New York Comic-Con, things like that, and there's a little bit of that vibe, but then there's also the very techie kind of engineering. A lot of very smart people around here. And, man, everybody's really knowledgeable about the subject matter, and I've got to say it's really impressive. And everybody's really nice. Your artwork is sought after not only for pinball but for other things too. Major League Baseball, I believe. That's true. I do work for the San Francisco Giants. I've done work for the Padres. I also do work for Marvel Comics Fine Art as well as DC. I've worked for Universal. I've got a book from Harry Potter that's out there. So it's really fun working on all these different IPs and different companies. I love all the clients I work for. I'm sure you're quite passionate about all of these projects that you have, but it's very time-consuming. It's not like somebody like me who can throw my voice on something. You have to really paint this magical picture, and I can only imagine the hours put into, for example, something like Mandalorian. Absolutely. I mean, when I first did Star Wars comics, which was my first pinball machine, I had, first let me say, I've been a pinball fan my whole life, and I didn't know that there's so many other fans out there. So I'd always admired the art, and when I got approached to do it, I had no idea how much work actually went into making a pinball machine, much less the amount of artwork that was needed So it really blew me away I had to make time where I didn have time and move things in my life So when Mandalorian came along, I was a little better prepared for that. But then they added, you know, I did three pinball machines instead of two. So even more work. But I ended up loving it. Sometimes in art, you have to push yourself to see what you're capable of doing. And this definitely tested that. and I pushed beyond what I knew I was able to complete, not in terms of the style or anything, but just the amount, the number of drawings I had to do. And just that everybody's just taking it so well and loving it. It's overwhelming, the comments I'm getting from people and how much they connect with it. For something as big as Star Wars, that incredible license, the trust that Lucasfilms, Disney has in you to be the man behind these art packages, that's a big deal and I'm sure you've already heard about how many people said boy I wouldn't mind that comic art on my regular machine forget the pin right I want it on that so I mean that was a big selling point for Star Wars well yeah I've been doing official Star Wars art since 1999 with Lucasfilm I've done everything from fine art prints to coffee mugs t-shirts pinball machines posters just about anything that there is capable of printing by Star Wars and we all know they print on just about everything. I've done it, including underwear. So some of you out there have probably worn my underwear in one way or another. So I know the company fairly well. They know me fairly well. And it really is for me with reputation and things like that and a work ethic. It really means a lot to me to get that kind of a nod from Lucasfilm that they trust me enough to handle something like that and Stern as well. But it makes me very proud. It makes me very happy that I stuck to certain things in my career I believed in and it's paid off.
    41:16
    Watching the Mandalorian show on Disney, at the end of both season one and season two, at the end of every episode, they have these lovely art pieces. And I know Ahsoka's coming out and the Book of Boba Fett, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and all these other Star Wars projects. Randy, is there any possibility we might see some of that artwork on some of these shows. Oh. On the actual shows? Well, at the end of the credits. Like they do on Mando. Well, you know, the production team on all these shows and movies, incredible artists. It's a little bit different avenue than what I've chosen to do, but I have met a lot of them along the way.
    41:54
    Watching the show and then they put the art at the end, I feel really happy for those artists. It's a nod to them. In a way, I take it as a nod to all of us artists who have helped sometimes keep Star Wars relevant when it wasn't, and then to help propel it when it was already big and give different points of view. And I'm talking about all the Star Wars artists out there. So for them to put something at the end like that with the art was kind of like them saying, we know that the art from all the artists is important to keeping Star Wars alive. Art is so important, certainly in the pinball world, because in a lineup at arcades of all these different games, Sure, the title is important, but if you have attractive art, that's going to draw that first quarter, that first dollar. And especially you want it to be nice if you're going to put it in your home. So thank you very much for your artwork, and we look forward to more. Thank you. I am looking forward to doing more, and I will be back. That's what Stern has told me. That's all I can say is that you will see my art on more pinball machines, but I can't tell you what. Hey, that's good news. That's good to hear. Exactly. Well, you can count out a Mandalorian. And that's what I won't be doing because I already did it. So everything outside of that, it could be. Thank you very much, Randy. You're welcome. Thank you. Here's the winner of the Women's Challenge here, the big tournament at Chicago Expo. And one of many wins for Carrie Wing. Congratulations. Thank you. That was a late one, too. I stayed for it.
    43:19
    3 o'clock it got done? Yeah, I think it was around 3 o'clock. I was driving back to the hotel. I went to sleep at 4.15 and then woke up at 7.30 for today. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, that's right, because this morning is the Classics, and again, you qualified for that. You've been really playing incredible lately. Thank you. I appreciate that. I just came off the Wisconsin Super Series recently, and that was a really amazing series of tournaments. It was six events, long days, early mornings, so I feel like I'm back at Wisconsin almost. Yeah, that's right. That is a grind, and in that tournament, every ball mattered. At least here, you get a little bit of relief. Okay, it's a pump it up. I can have a bad game. All right, back to the queue. But that was just go, go, go, and such amazing talent there at District 82. Yeah, that was an amazing tournament. I'll definitely go back next year. It was run really well, and the games were really nice, so it was great. You know, I did send a note to Eric Thorne. I said, just one a year? Come on, you've got the facility. If he did four, do you know how many people would go? Oh, my God, yeah. All the points would be coming from Wisconsin. How are things in Kansas? Really good. We're just about to put on the Kansas City Pinball Championship in two weeks. Nice. Yeah. And operating, I know it obviously was a struggle over the last 18 months, let's say not two years, but things coming back a little bit? Yeah, things are coming back bit by bit. We're almost back to where we were before, so that's good. I'm now operating at like three or four locations. So, yeah, I work on pinball machines constantly. You must be excited about all the new titles. Oh, yeah. Godzilla has been doing really well for us. Super fun game. We may see a Cactus Canyon in Kansas City soon. Really? Yeah. Wow. So we're excited about that. But yeah, I haven't played Legends of Valhalla yet. I should have played it this weekend. But I heard there's one at a mall in town, so I might go play that one. Very nice. Yeah, it's a fun game. And we saw that. We saw, like you say, Cactus Canyon. I was kind of hoping to see a Jersey Jack reveal. But, I mean, they're doing so well with not only Guns N' Roses, but Wonka back on the line. So everyone seems to be stepping their game up in the pinball world. Yeah, it's been a great show. It was good to see a lot of pinball machines, and they had a lot of each title so you could step up and play. So it's been a great show. Carrie, congrats again on the win, and maybe another one here by the time this is done in Classic. So good luck to you. Thanks. Expo is done, but the great thing about it for me personally was a chance to see people you haven't seen in a long time. And, you know, we can play pinball anywhere, but you get to see people all over come. And Mark Scoff from Reno, Nevada is here. and we're sitting here in O'Hare waiting for our planes, and I thought, well, let's do a quick recap. Some of the things you really liked. I really liked the homebrew place where you had all the different games as far as, like, Sonic was awesome, Castlevania was fun to play, Metroid. I really appreciate all the work that went into those games and how polished the code was. I felt like when I was playing Sonic, I was really playing a production game, and I hope somebody picks it up and produces it because it's just a phenomenal game and so engaging. In fact, I did see Raymond Davidson playing it, and he was just totally just blowing that game up. But it was pretty deep code. It was really exciting to play because the shots flowed so well, and the modes were understandable, and it was just awesome with the multi-ball, destroying Robotnik. It was well-packaged, all put together. It was great. Well, I talked to Ryan earlier, as you heard on the podcast, and American Pinball announced that some designer of a homebrew will have it mass-produced. And I saw Ryan very, very excited. Now, if it shouldn't be Sonic, because maybe they can't get the license, still a great game, even if you flip it to something else. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the layout is really nice. I'm a fan of Sonic, because I played it a lot when I played Sega Genesis. But it was really a nice way to showcase that game. And I've seen it throughout the years as it progressed. And now seeing it in that final stage, even with the artwork that was colored in now, It wasn't just all black and white. It was really captivating and just a great game. So he did a lot of work, and obviously it was wonderful to be able to enjoy that passion with him as I was playing it. The tournaments were fun. The vendor area was quite something to see, a different venue and the free play area. But really the attraction was seeing all the big companies and their big displays. And a lot of these games, many of us haven't played. So I know Cactus Canyon was a big reveal. There was a chance for people to play Godzilla from Stern for the first time. So many different machines were there. In fact, all of them from Jersey Jack and Legends of Valhalla and Hot Wheels for American. That's what I really enjoyed, kind of that big open area. And just we've been so antsy to play some of these games because we might not have them on location yet, and they were all there. That was fun. That was so much fun. I really enjoyed the vendor area. They had a lot of games from Stern that were out there. Godzilla, I kept going back to. That was like the game we played the whole time, pretty much. The Premium, the Pro, there was even an LE that Zach brought in from Flippin' Out. That was a treat to be able to play an LE right on the show floor. It was really a fun game. Elwin nailed it. It's probably going to be game of the year. I'm almost positive. I haven't heard any negative things of people saying anything about Godzilla that they're nitpicking. There's nothing to nitpick. It's just a fun game. It shoots well. The shots behind the bumper and how it loops around where you usually don't expect that on a game is just amazing. The magnet that grabs it and then changes the trajectory of it is a great way to totally change up the game a little bit. And, of course, the mech, seeing the building come collapsing down and having the balls release, it was just, yeah, it's a great game. Legends of a Hall I enjoyed playing. That was a great one from American Pinball. Obviously you did a great job on the voiceover work. I just want to say that again. And it definitely sounded like Odin. And I knew what I was doing. It was loud and clear coming through the mix to know exactly what to shoot. So that was nice. Great artwork. It looked much better in person. And the way that it shot, it was very flowy. So you had that middle ramp and the left ramp and the orbit, and the challenging satisfying shot was locking it into the Viking ship. So it was a really awesome game that was not bad for a non-licensed game. I was impressed with all these new games that they were pretty intuitive. Godzilla has a lot in there, but you saw the shots clearly labeled. You know, Valhalla told you what to do, and Cactus Canyon, you knew what was going on there. I was kind of hoping to see Spooky there because I hadn't played Halloween or Ultraman yet. But, you know, they're sold out, so we wish them all the best. And Haggis, of course, they had their lockdown that they've been dealing with. But we know we'll be seeing them soon. But still, overall, pretty impressive expo. Yeah, it was really impressive as far as the vendor area. The other area, it was good. They had games to play. But it just seemed like there wasn't as much of a variety of games that I was hoping for. I was pretty impressed, though. I mean, I never got to play an Iron Maiden from Stern. That was pretty cool. Oh, the old one. That was pretty cool because that's not a common game at all. I mean, the only time I saw that was at the Museum of Pinball in Banning. But the other one, there were some rare games out there that I've never seen before and played. So that was exciting to be able to do that. But I just wish there was just, I think there should have been more games because there was more people and there was lines. Well, Rob Burke did an excellent job, brought a lot of those games himself. So once again, a fantastic expo. Well, thanks very much, Mark. Safe flight back home to Reno. Yeah, thank you very much. It was really a pleasure and great seeing you, Jeff. It felt good to go to Pinball Expo. Congratulations to Rob Burke and your staff. I hope the vendors did well. I know the pinball companies did well because I talked to five distributors and they're waiting for more inventory. So the demand is high for pinball in 2021. Congratulations to Escher Lefkoff. He won the big flip-out tournament. Back-to-back years for him, the defending champ. He beat Zach McCarthy, so the two Colorado kids in the finals. DJ Ryle defended his Classics Championship, beating the number one player in the world in Raymond Davidson. Hope you enjoyed some of the sounds and people of Pinball Expo. I always ask myself a question after going to an event. Would I go next year? That answer is simple. I'll see you in 2022. This has been Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. We're also on Twitter and Instagram at pinballprofile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. I'm Jeff Teolas.