thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott it is it's star wars day or new pin day well i guess we're a couple yeah it's it's week we're uh yeah we're a little late but we were trying to organize a an interview with john borg which we are hoping to get in the future uh we it didn't line up with his schedule and ours so we were planning on doing that in the future but we figured we want to jump on and give you our thoughts oh it was a game of cat and mouse for like three weeks dude and it's yeah but okay and borg is great he is really hard to get it's actually been super lucky for us to get the the designers quickly on game day the last couple releases because they are so busy because they are on the line they're testing all these things and to to sync the schedules really has been a herculean effort we know that borg is spending a lot more time and possibly having another game coming out so it's uh it does take a lot of effort to sync things this time well to that point right like so typically the the game cycles anywhere from about 15 to 18 months depending on when they signed on it that schedule might be uh you know zoomed up like in the case of x-men but if you really think about it metallica released not even 11 months ago right now we have star wars and the rumor is walking dead with borg on it three games that's three games in one year in a 12-month span. Yeah, he's stretched a little thin. We know nothing about next month's game. We don't. I guess that's a long-standing rumored game. But either way, hopefully it'll be something in Expo. I think that's been longer rumored than Star Wars has, man. It's been rumored for a while. Yeah, maybe. I know that the one that was... widely predicted was metallica yeah yeah true um but if you want a star wars premium or pro or an le i don't know if they have any le's left uh i know they may you can always ask yeah you can always ask uh zach nicolmeni at flipping out they now got greg bone and ken cromwell on the team and if you haven't been listening to their podcast definitely go subscribe to that it's good it's really good it's uh there's no i don't it's funny because i looked at the word shill the other day and it's really weird because shill means that you're trying to push a product by pretending you're not pushing the product you know i'm saying like yeah yeah and so it's not really fair and of course they're not really Win Schilling through the podcast that's not what it is because they don't actually really talk about flipping out at all it's just kind of greg and ken stream of thought and it's been really good so far but if you want to buy that game get a hold of zach tell him loser kid sent you uh and yeah man get they've what star wars They're only doing one more run of Jaws 50th, I was told, here in December. And they're calling it quits for Jaws 50th. And then get on the list for Walking Dead, maybe? I don't know. I also got the Cactus Canyon upgrade kit. Oh, yes. I got that. I haven't been able to install it yet. So hopefully be able to get an installation thing and then some gameplay down for you guys. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, let's talk Star Wars. It's the big hot thing right now. So obviously we did not make it to media day. I think a lot of our decision was based off of the fact we're going to be there next month at Expo. It's also a little challenging. My schedule is set for months in advance. Yeah, that's true. Being able to take a last-minute trip. I was on call at the hospital, so it's hard to swap schedules that quickly and to get coverage. We're pretty tight staffing-wise. So I couldn't do it. Josh has been super busy with his business. Oh, yeah. By the way, I was supposed to fly out to Chicago to see Star Wars. I now own a business. I was in a meeting room with lawyers instead of out in Chicago. In a good way. Josh basically just took over the business that he's already doing, and he's doing an excellent job. Thank you. And planning on going down to St. George to tune up my stuff. So that's right down there. My wife's got crazy ideas in her head. Maybe we should just go all the way to California and get on a Antonio Cruz. I'm like, have fun. Yeah, yeah. Slow the roll. Yeah. Yeah. So that's yeah. So Star Wars. OK, so here's the big question. Yeah. Well, here's the big question. So why? Like, why are we getting another Star Wars? And Josh, I'm going to toss it to you and get your thoughts and then I'll give you my thoughts. i mean it's an evergreen license it's one of the top selling merchandise licenses and there's a reason disney bought it up at what was it four or five billion dollars or something like that four billion dollars it's because it makes money it's from 1977 the funny part is though i'm starting to run into the generation where like they just don't watch star wars like it's not i mean it's like slowly dying off maybe it never will it's just it's very interesting to me i was talking with our group earlier about this it's really weird to me that they did a costco run of the home edition and then they released this and someone had pointed out you know costco has amazing marketing if you've never looked at like the social channels of costco and stuff like that there's whole content creation with millions and millions of followers dedicated to costco so it's amazing that they got this in front of that it's essentially showing the product without showing the product right and then they don't have to sell it for a cheaper price at costco because you've got to meet that uh so it was a great kickstarter to this run i guess it was all pre-planned i don't know overall i find it interesting i think the i think it's not over saturation maybe it is the problem is it's like star wars it seems like every star wars that's been made has been made for the general public which is fine like you definitely you have a you have a great merchandise product that's going to move units you've been having a i'm not saying starts having a hard time moving units but some of the stuff i would say has fallen flat lately it's either done really well it's fallen flat right and so to have a product like star wars help push you through the next year and have that it's going to have a long tail right like it's going to keep making sales and making sales i think did i answer your question scott because now i feel like i'm rambling well and you're getting to the essence of it in that um And Star Wars is something that almost every man, I bumped the camera again. I need to get a better mount. The general public who are buying things for their home, you know, the arcade, you know, the home arcade that people are buying. They want a theme that connects with people. And most of the time, these are their family type games. So you're going to choose something that is at least has a general family connection. I would say the top merchandising titles out there that people always recognize, the top three would be Star Wars, Harry Potter, Marvel. So some sort of Marvel thing, right? Or Pokemon. Okay, I know you've got a hot and bad for Pokemon. It's fine. um but i know i got hot bad for zelda and pokemon better succeed so that nintendo's like hey hey there's something here we better get mario and zelda in the pipeline and i know i know there's listeners out there because we've had this discussion there is a there's a craving for mario zelda and for some odd reason fallout i i didn't know this was a thing like i enjoy playing the game but i didn't realize there was such a love for fallout do you know how many people have told me they're already in like day one of fallout le if this is all true on a rumor i don't even know what fallout is it's a game right yes yes it's a computer game that's been around for like 30 plus years they go and shoot people or something like that or yeah it's post apocalyptic you're you're trying to survive rpg based yeah it's stuff like that yeah okay okay here however however i will point out okay now josh needs to towel off because he just talked about pokemon and his his why do you make it sound like i have this hot and heavy for the pokemon pokemon is something my kids really really love okay so it's just something like sure you do it for the kids i can name the first 151 okay but i can't name the 900 and whatever is after that or 1000 after that there's 151 pokemon the original now there's a thousand plus from all the ones they've added wow i can name hon luke and leah um okay but uh basically you're you're looking at things that my generation that are setting up arcades like they're gonna go in and they're gonna want to get connection with you yes and yes i'm i'm in my 50s they definitely want things that will connect to the 40s and 30s and all that kind of stuff too, but this title will always connect with my generation. And you definitely want that available all the time. So the fact that they, they ended the first one, but rebooted it does not surprise me at all. It doesn't surprise me because when people search for Star Wars, all right, then they're going to pull up these games. And I even had a local small dealer reach out to me and said, Hey, what do you think about this? And I said, I, I have a feeling that a lot of the people who really wanted star Wars probably already have one, but it will be a long tail. Like I bet all of the avatars have already been sold. I bet all of the John wicks have already been sold. Like very few people are going to call and say, Hey, I want that. But there will be people who will annually just continually call in and say, hey, what do you got? You're like, well, I've got a Star Wars. They're like, oh, okay, I know that one. So coming out with a new version of it, and I suspect the reason why they went with The Fall of the Empire was because they needed to differentiate it licensing-wise from the other one. Because otherwise, you're going to get people who are confused about, hey, I saw a Star Wars game, and I bought a Star Wars game and it wasn't the same Star Wars game. So I'm suspecting that that's kind of what they were getting into. Now, I also get that there is the home edition, but I don't think anyone's going to mistake a home edition because it doesn't actually have an arcade setup to use it. But it totally makes sense that they would figure out a way to continue this title. do you think it was a mistake or an asset to continue along with basically the original story oh i think it was 100 percent uh the best thing to do okay um i think that i think rehab not rehashing i think that's the most iconic of the star wars i think it's when you think star wars you think luke leila leia han um you know i i i think the first one through three when i was a teenager and they came out they were very diversive at the time like you know obviously number one was you know jar jar do you mean divisive divisive sorry okay uh divisive because if obviously four and five was made for more of uh may not adults it was definitely geared to like older teens younger adults right and then six was geared towards we need to appeal to a younger audience that's why they were on the ewoks and stuff like that and i felt like one tried to pick up on what they were doing in six and uh yeah i just i think if you want to reach that older demographic that has the money in their pockets like like i guarantee the demographic is 35 to 65 white male and that's all within star wars range right sure that's true so i just i think it's it's thing it's right here's my other thought too on that um i don't know this for a fact i don't i've never sat down with the designers that we are totally speculating at this point by we haven't interviewed yeah uh and i would never ask this on the podcast so please don't ask me to ask this to the designers but i half wonder if there's a commission that is paid towards the design teams for making these games and you would rather make a new game with a designer that's still at stern or you see what i'm saying like especially if you're about star wars is going to means a lot of units so why would you be paying that to a designer that no longer works at stern and works for a competitor just just a thought and i could be entirely wrong they might not pay commission yeah yeah we know nothing about their contracts but that that would at least make sense i would i would have a feeling that it's more of a refresh opportunity for star wars the last star wars that came out was polarizing uh it was polarizing because the plunge was you are in danger right from the start. And so there's a lot of people who hate that. And if you go up and your first plunge goes directly out the left out lane, then there are going to be people like, what? Like, I paid $2 for this and I'm not going to, you know, I don't want to play it again. I think it's just more of a refresh opportunity because the game, it was okay. but the coolest feature that was the Hyperloop was only on the Premium and the LE. The ramp that went up to the Death Star was challenging. It had the fork that kept doing a lot of ball rejects, and it just didn't feel like it nailed it. This seems like a way of trying to fix the issues that they had with the first one, but also still keep with the same material. And I think all those, all those people who bought those star Wars already bought those. This gives an opportunity to swap out, maybe get a different one, maybe get a better one. And so that I think that's why this is going on. Well, and the other thing too is cause we always, you ask like which, which series do you go with? So right now you could fill your whole basement with star Wars machines. There's been eight made. That's including the Holden one, which I know is super rare. The Empire Strikes Back down in Australia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But here's the thing. Every single one of these games outside of Star Wars Episode I have followed the original trilogy. So there must be something to it. And maybe it's a superstition thing because Gomez and Eddie and Dwight all worked at Valley Williams working on Star Wars Episode I, and they saw how it was received. And that's another reason, too. They're like, yeah, we'll never do Star Wars Episode I. Just a thought process But I agree with you It a good refresh Here the thing though Every time they make a Star Wars have you ever noticed it like I don want to say it the easiest layout Obviously the plunge on Richie was super annoying But they all fan layouts. They're all kind of geared towards bringing people into the hobby. So do you think this is an opportunity to refresh the player database of who owns pinball? Yeah, absolutely. When When you have a game like this, you want it to be – you probably want it to be a longer player because you want people – you're going to catch people who have very casual acquaintance with pinball. And you want something that actually has longer ball times so people can see a little bit more of the game. if you uh if you have something like for example the walking dead that is a different scenario in that you kind of expect it to be uh even just the theme you're thinking it's going to be a little more brutal you don't think it's going to be a baby game as a as nick likes to call them uh but yeah this definitely does feel a little bit like that you know kind of the medieval madness type thing where it's accessible to all probably the elite players may or may not be interested um but there are ways of making it accessible and challenging and you can look at metallica metallica is a fan layout right but uh it it can be a brutal game can be but it also has some bash elements when i'm looking at this layout um like i i don't really see it am i missing the bash josh is there a bash in this i think the up the center ramp so it's it's like it's it's a jump ramp yeah and you hit the wall a hyperspace ramp yeah uh and then on the death star the death star is also kind of like a bash toy you got to hit the ship to open it to lock the balls okay so so there is a little element maybe of you know kind of like uh attack from mars where there's a stand up underneath the at two i don't know if you count that as a bash toy i don't think you do yeah okay so here's a question john called it the atat do you call it an atat or do you call it the ad up uh i'm pretty for sure it's called the i remember there was some kind of like commerce i want to say it was like big bang theory where they had george lucas on and they actually like settled this as a joke oh really i'm perfect because i used to call it an atat because i'm like that's what they are i always called it an ad up yeah they're called so that's what i always called it yeah yeah that's from the creator and maybe you don't want to go with the creator anyway because it's George Lucas. I don't know. But yeah, it's called an app from what I understand. All right. Yeah, so it does. It kind of has a little bit of that kind of attack from Mars vibe, right? Where it's the stuff straight up the middle is a little more dangerous. Attack from Mars? I see Austin Powers, dude. Like this is a mirrored Austin Powers. I could be wrong. I could be wrong. You told me that before. I'm going to look it up right now. you do that right now uh while he's looking that up um and granted like so they can't actually patent playfields because they like proved like years ago that there's there's only so many limitations that you have with a play field that like if you keep creating these you're going to run into some stealing of other designs or some similarities whether you meant to or not so like i just i get that like some things are going to look the same but i feel like this is this is Star Wars, fall of the Austin powers. Like, okay. Are you calling it the, uh, the Austin powers just because it has the, uh, the jab of the hut toilet bowl? Well, there is that. Okay. I've got, you've got the up the center. It does have the ring, the ring from Lord of the Rings. So this doesn't have the ring, right? It's still, it's still a jump wrap, uh, that goes in the back, uh, back behind the, the whirly bird. I don't know what you, the, the, uh, okay yeah you have the toilet bowl and like the job of the it is funny because like the way job is sitting on top of that thing it kind of does look like a toilet like I don't know what to tell you on that if like I said if you mirror it the mini me target is that is the at target you've got the orbits on the sides I mean there's obviously some variation this was a John Borg layout on Austin Powers as well and it doesn't have the typical Borg lens on the bottom but I mean for the most part It's very similar to Austin Powers, in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah, he does have the two inlanes on the left side, doesn't he? On this one, too. Yes, yes, he does. Yeah. Typical Borg. He loves him some double inlanes. But even the returns on Austin Powers are straight down the sides into the inlanes. Okay. Granted, they're clear plastic versus Star Wars is metal. I, I, I, I, okay. I, I see what you're saying, but you could also argue that any two flipper layout has that, has that challenge. We talked about this. We call them today, right? We were talking about the, the layout of a fan layout. And even I, I pointed out the ultimate fan layout would probably be medieval madness or attack from Mars. Right. Yeah. And so we counted that up. And how many shots did we end up getting? Eight? I think eight with Medieval Madness, yeah. And so that's kind of the fan shots you're going to get anyway. Yeah. Well, and you could argue like ACDC is the prime one to bring people into the hobby because it's only got five shots. It's still a fan. But then like it's – the shots are a little wider for the five. You know what I'm saying? But it does have a canon. It does have a canon, which gives you side to side. So, all right. Okay. What do you think? Okay. What was your first impressions of seeing Star Wars? My first impressions was it looks like an updated version of the Steve Ritchie one, in that it had a lot of similar elements, and that probably was by design. You still have the Death Star that's in the upper left corner, which was also in the Steve Ritchie design and also in the, in the home design. Right. Yeah. You do have, it does feel like a more in, it seems like the, the bill of material is bigger on this though. Yeah. So it seems like you have like more to see. I still remember a couple of years ago, I went to a local furniture store that actually has some, some pinball machines. and I walked up and I thought, oh, well, this has the pin because I hadn't actually had some time to play on the pin and I started playing it and then I realized it was actually the pro of the, you know, so I was like, wow, this feels a little bit like there's something missing. Yeah. So this play field does feel a little bit more fleshed out, right? Well, it feels more cohesive at the very least. Right. In my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so you have more, more there. The ramps are a little more filled out. It doesn't have the hyper ramp, but you know, the challenge that we always had with the hyper ramp is the hyper ramp was cool when it was, when you got it going, but it didn't really, didn't do that much really. well it felt like you rarely got to it it's right it's the center feature right in the middle of the play field and it's like it just it i don't know if i ever activated it but then again yeah it's been a while since i've played richie star wars yeah i i haven't played in a long time either so first impressions you you like this better than richie's i would say it's better than richie's yeah it's it seems like now this is me just looking at it i haven't actually played it so that's the caveat we will return and report when we go to Expo and take a look at it this seems like it would be a little more fun because it seems like there's just a little bit more there well and you've got Ray Day on code and I love you Dwight personally I think Dwight's got some of the coolest code additions to games like rule sets I just don't know if they're fully fleshed out and like so the one the one hard part about richie's is it feels like it's a flow game rule set with stop and go play because of the way that everything launches into it right and so like you said we haven't played this yet but i watched i watched the the live stream a couple of times over and over and to get a sense of it feels ray day is doing a very good job like i i can already see the vision he's going with here um and obviously they still need to flesh them out and whatnot but um i i like where the direction is going with this game and honestly if you're going to have a family out why not star wars so yeah yeah the the i i agree with you on dwight's rule sets in that dwight is he is one of the deepest thinkers when it comes to trying to orchestrate his rule sets yeah and i love that i love that no i mean it's great and dragons It was so cool. Perfect. So cool. Yes. He is perfect for that because he really gets into that type of stuff. But I'll put it this way. If you have some buddies who call you up and bring you over for a game night, there are games that you play that are 30 minutes and there are games that you play that are four or five hours, right? Yeah. And so you probably want Dwight on the ones that you expect to have the four to five hour type, that immersive thing going on where you're going to be playing. You're going to explore here. You can go over here. You probably want Ray. And I know Ray could probably do the other stuff too. I mean, we haven't seen him design that type of stuff. I feel like Foo Fighters is very well done. Okay. And granted, I guess you don't play it for an hour. It definitely was. You got to the end within about 30 minutes. Sure. But it seems like it's a little bit more kind of a straightforward accessibility thing. And Rey, I'm guessing, is shooting for that a little bit more on this game. One of the challenges with the other Star Wars games was I felt that the rule sets were a little hard to understand. Yeah, that's true as well. You know, you know, it's one of the first things that point. first impression wise i just i looked at this and was like oh please please no my uh the art and i know like it look at this play field you've got it pulled up right oh yeah i got pulled up i mean come on like it looks like stickers it looks like you you you did an iconic scene with luke invader awesome yeah you like sticker booked all over it but you want to even absolutely worse is on the le on the side rails they've cut it out it looks like little stickers next to the buttons and i get you used artists that were disney slash star wars approved yeah and so this is what you get because they don't design and pinball and they're like this this will do so i just why did we not get randy martinez on it he killed it on the comic book edition like he just did fantastic and did a little more cohesiveness to it. I'm just... Look at the center play field. It just... It doesn't look like there's much going on here besides the fact they're looking at Vader and Luke fighting with the Emperor in the background. Yeah, you got the five lights in the middle and you've got whatever is above their head. I know that lights up as well. But literally, the LEDs outside of the inlays and stuff really don't start until you start hitting the ramps more than halfway up the game. It just... Why? Like, it just... I get like there's probably the hands were tied at Stern and, and this is what was approved through Disney. And when you're, when you're not, how do I put this? Stern's obviously baking the cake, but it's really weird when they bring in other chefs that don't really have to talk. May they do talk with Stern. I guess I'm talking on a turn and I'm, I'm saying stuff that like I can't confirm, but it just feels like when you have someone in house, it's a lot more cohesive versus when you bring in people from outside. Okay. I'll, I'll make an argument to defend the choices. Okay, look. So if you look at the art package, the design and the way it's set up, it's actually very 1981, 1982. So if you bought Star Wars games back then, that is actually the font that you would get. and with the double bar thing that goes all the way around. If you were to buy, and I know I've said this dismissively for art in the past, but if you were to buy a lunchbox with Empire Strikes Back on it, you would get this backbox. Because it is an artistic representation of the Battle of Hoth, and it actually looks really good. now the reason why it's that is because I think they're going for that like 1981 maybe the Empire Strikes Back vibe and if you look at the art it's kind of emulating that a little bit and so I would say that you may or may not like it but I would submit to you that it is it is era specific and so it's It's an accurate representation of the era that these games came out. Yeah. And like I said, I guess I'm just used to modern day and pinball where it feels like things are more cohesive. Um, but this could be again, a more straightforward thing. If you look at the play, the late, uh, sorry, the play field, it lights up a lot more like a medieval madness. Yeah. Because you have the stacked lights that are going up the different shots. And I guarantee that for someone who's new to pinball, who's trying to figure things out, that is a huge advantage to be able to say, hey, that is the ladder you're trying to climb with that shot. So if you have things that are a little bit more challenging, Iron Maiden behind me, for example, it's not as straightforward as to what you do to hit things. True, but that's Keith's first game. Let's compare it to King Kong. At least I know the climb arrows are specifically for climbing because they say climb. Sure. I get it. This feels like it is really trying to be the game for all ages. This is definitely the old all – we're bringing in all players. And so I'll be interested to see how the competition players – let's talk to Tom Graff. Let's talk to Travis Meary. let's talk to them and talk to Ray Day and figure out, okay, do you see this being in a bank at Pinburgh? I so totally wish we could patch them in right now and be like, Tom, Travis. Well, okay, but you see what I'm saying? Because tournament players approach games differently. And we know that that is a huge plus and a minus sometimes to games is that it's nearly impossible to design a game for all genres Not genres I so i can not genres i like more ability levels so i am not a top 100 competitive player but i have played competitively and i feel like i try to attack a play field from a competitive mindset sometimes um i think competitive players are going to love or hate the the toilet bowl job is toilet bowl okay because it took so long right but yeah single ball you get up there and it's 10 15 seconds in that bowl and you're you're just waiting for it to come back and so to slow the game down playing down that much i think is just rough especially where you can shoot it multiple times i can't remember a game where you can actually shoot into the bowl i know like in diner and with cactus canyon you plunge into it so you get it at the very beginning i can't remember a game where you could actually shoot in the bowl I know someone's screaming right now at their earbuds. It's this game. But here's the advantage to the toy bowl. If you're in a multiball, you can stick a couple balls in there, or you can stick at least one ball in there and start picking stuff off on a single ball play without having to worry about juggling balls. So there's like a pro and a con to it as well. Yeah. So I'm sure they've play-tested that to figure out how long that ball will stall up there but okay so where are where are the pop bumpers in this so let's talk about that down below right above the inlanes okay in outlanes so so uh danger bumpers yeah danger bumpers okay so what usually i want to say yes and no i don't know i guess we need to play it i can see we do but okay you can see that one of them on the left side that's where the twilight zone bumper was and they actually had to put like some, some rubbers to prevent people from just, just, uh, popping right out of the, uh, you know, the outlanes. True. But there was like at least three there where this one was one. Yeah. So, okay. This one's halfway covered. Sure. Well, what's usually the purpose with pop bumpers? Create a little chaos. Try again. I don't know what you're fishing for. Just tell me. Okay. Uh, So pop bumpers are to just delay the ball time. I think about my burn nests. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Not a single one, but pop bumper nest. I mean, for the most part, you plunge into the pop bumpers back there and you're like, yay, I get more ball time, but nothing's really happening. Right. Yeah. Well, you're racking up some points as long as that stays in that nest. Okay. Yeah. But it's, it's a stall. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a hand, it's a hand wave. it's a magic trick when you're playing these games on location where people think they're actually doing better than they are yeah because they get the ball up in the pop bumper and it stalls around for 10 seconds okay so how is that different than a funnel true well the thing with the funnel if you hit it clean it's in there if you go into a pop bumper nest it's not a guarantee it's going to stay in there there's been more times than not that i've seen it go in and shoot right out I don't know I feel like there's more randomness and chaos It's just a thought But typically that was Originally why they would put these Pop bumper nests in the like These safe areas where you couldn't really It's not they typically weren't dangerous I mean like on the last Star Wars that Richie did because he had a pop bumper nest Up there too yeah well think about medieval Madness yeah You get it up there it's just it's hiding Underneath some ramps Like there's nothing really useful about the pop bumper nester. Yeah. Well, outside of, like you said, it can come in handy during a multiball. Right. Because it keeps the ball safe. And so if you put a whole bunch of balls in the funnel, and I'm sure that Borg thought about this. So there's got to be a reason why he chose to do the funnel, which is the, I mean, it's thematically consistent, right? Yeah. Because it is supposed to be the Sarlacc pit. Yeah, yeah. So. No, I agree with you. So I think it's really cool that they got C-3PO, Chris Chris Bartlett to do the call outs for this game. I think that's really immersive. I do enjoy C-3PO. I think he's one of those. Okay, so who's that? Chris Chris Bartlett. Okay, so he's not Anthony Daniels. oh well i guess uh is he emulating anthony daniels yes the game features custom audio call it's from actor chris Chris Bartlett as c-3po okay okay so sorry yeah i forgot it was anthony daniels that did the original um but yeah i mean that's fine anthony daniels has to be in his like 70s or 80s by now like it definitely would make sense to to get someone you know younger with a little more uh animation to his voice yeah true um i i don't know i i feel like he's one of the more standout characters uh but he's also like a background narrator you know what i'm saying so it makes sense to have him as as your pinball narrator he's 80 years old holy crap dude yeah he's 80 in february yeah yeah so anthony daniels i think that that would be a lot to get him to do the call outs okay if you think about it though it is kind of funny because you can look at star wars from the the view of the droids in that the droids are basically just telling the story that happened around them yeah and if you think if you think about it they've kind of gone through the whole thing true but then you get that conspiracy theory of like r2d2 was there and saw the twins born and like so obviously he knows everything that's going on so why did he never relate the information like it yeah dude yeah i just remember number three came out when i was a senior and we all as my english advanced my ap english class we all went to uh revenge of the sith and went and saw it as a class because we watched all of them and had to break it down uh you know what i'm saying oh yeah no okay it's totally true and it is funny how it gets retconned a little bit yeah you know so you're like well like if i i think that i would remember if darth vader built me you know that that kind of thing yeah yep 100 yeah that's where i'm looking forward to but it it does it totally reminds me of by the way like we're talking the original trilogy did you ever read the um the mad magazine version of return of the jedi no no just i'm sure there's like screenshots of it online you just have to look and it was hilarious because even at the end they kind of were rolling their eyes and they said you know at the very end you found out that you know han or luke luke and leia were brother and sister and han was like their second cousin and chewbacca was their dog and it was like it was like this this whole inbred hatfield mccoy thing so i will say uh when it comes to art i do like the premium package better than i do the rest but i think it is a good idea to use the battle of hoth as your le you know i don't feel like it was as cohesive as me the other two packages but i think out of all the original four through six i personally feel like the battle of hoth is one of the more iconic scenes and like storytelling moments uh like obviously you know the premium package with vader and luke fighting that's that is a huge part of Empire Strikes Back. But as a kid, I think it's really cool that they put the at-at on the playfield and the loop around, the ball loops around the at-at and if you complete the Battle of the Hoff, you tie its legs and you destroy it. To me, I think that's very cool conceptual-wise putting that into the game. Seriously, thinking back, I really think Battle of the Hoff is one of my favorite parts of Star Wars. I really think Empire Strikes Back is probably the best star wars album all too okay i think you are mistaken though i you're talking about uh luke and vader fighting that's the pro back glass correct sorry no no no so if you look at the premium sides so the side the premium side is vader and luke big on the sides fighting okay i thought you were talking about the trans light and so no sorry i apologize yeah the side of the pro is a return of the jedi the fight of the ewoks when they're on that moon yeah but the Backglass is actually Darth Vader and Luke. Yeah. So, I just think it's a brilliant idea with the premium to go that route with that fight, because that is probably the most iconic part. That fight's the Return of the Jedi, isn't it? Which one? The fight in front of the Emperor. Yes. So, I apologize. I was thinking of the fight where he loses his hand. Well, I'm looking at... That's actually... And the fight where he loses his hand is in it's in Empire Strikes Back but I think that's the fight that's the fight where he loses his hand okay I'm looking at it because it looks like a little bit of an amalgam of two different things so you have yeah the on the premium side that is definitely the Cloud City he has both his hands and he also has the Empire sweatsuit or jumpsuit or whatever it was. And behind it, you see when Harrison Ford or Han Solo gets frozen in carbonite. Correct. Yeah, and that has to be one of the most iconic parts of all the Star Wars franchises. The most iconic battle is Hoth, and the most iconic would be the ending of Vampire, like you're saying, where they freeze Han, and they Luke and Vader fight, and you get the whole, I am your father. Yeah. Okay, that's the wrong quote do you know what the real quote is everyone says i'm your father no well they all say luke oh yeah he never says luke he says no i i am your father that's what he says yeah so i just i just knew to cut out luke because i knew luke wasn't said in the sentence right i'm not a nerd like you that's that's true uh my wife would argue with you hey don't make me pull out all my dolls over here okay don't make me to name all i mean look it up 1092 pokemon there's a okay dude okay the fact that you're like out pokemoning me i mean that that's just that's beyond like okay i don't even know you grew up you grew up in the 80s so it was i grew up in the 90s i can name all like star wars 90s was pokemon yeah i can name all the ninja turtles that's it i can name the four or six No there's not No there's not they're not real Okay those are crap Which ones are crap The non four ones The non four ones We were going to discount Michelangelo, Raphael, Leonardo And the other dude Raphael I thought I said him Raphael, Michelangelo Yeah okay Those are the four that's it Okay so we're discounting Venus de Milo Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it doesn't exist. What about – I can't remember the other girl's name. I'm not going to lie. She was made in the new comic series. I'm sorry. It's like an add-a-character thing. It's like – no, I'm sorry. No, just – The new girl was actually pretty good. Okay, I get it. But it's – Okay, it's like saying like, okay, the four members of Motley Crue. I know the four members of Motley Crue. Don't ask me about the other people who like showed up and spent some time. There's just the four of us, okay? Gotcha. Oh my goodness. We've went off the rails. But then again, Ninja Turtles was 1984 as well. Yeah. Well, and they actually... Jenica. Jenica was the other one. Oh my gosh. Jenica sounds like a disease that you'd need a shot for. What? There's Jenicas out there. Okay, Jenny. Jenny for short. Does that make you feel better? Yeah, that's right. Jenny does not sound like a disease. Yeah, she sounds like a disease. Seriously, that was really good to read. she's from the block she's jenny from the block she got stabbed and they had a transfuser with turtle blood and she ended up turning into a turtle it was awesome oh wow i don't remember that part of the song yeah j-lo is actually technically a ninja turtle she wears yellow okay what back back to star wars back meanwhile back to star wars yeah and not so get far galaxy away okay i do like okay let's talk about the pluses though I do like the wire forms. The wire forms look so good. And I understand why they do. Sometimes a plastic ramp is better than a wire form. But wire forms in pinball look so cool. And it does affect – I think it just looks like a higher quality option. okay um the the millennium falcon with the illuminated back part that looks great um you have the uh so the death star is actually the death star 2 it's not the original one being rebuilt yep yes yes so there's holes in there and you can so people can actually appreciate the death star does eat the ball okay yeah that's starting balls so so we don't have to have any The Shark No Eat Ball memes. Yes. The Shark Does Eat Ball. Yes. I just want to point out, like, everything since they've created, like, everything's Eat the Ball, just by the way. Outside of, like, John Wick. I mean, that's why John Wick failed. And X-Men failed, too, because the Sentinel didn't eat the ball. So there is the secret. There is the secret. They sold enough. They sold enough, okay? They sold enough. Okay. So, all right. Here's the question. what is your gut feeling on this josh is this something that you're interested in picking up or are you are you curious to play or i definitely i definitely want to play and here's the thing too so i want to i want to point this out really quickly before we start going into like would you buy would you not buy sure sure people are asking what what is the differences between premium at least versus the pro because that's really the question right do you feel like you're getting the full experience at the pro or at least enough of the experience that doesn't justify jumping the 2500 is that about what it is 2700 yeah something yeah and so um so the things that you are missing on the pro that you do not receive on the premium or the le they have taken out there is a lord vader helmet on the left side there's a stormtrooper helmet on the right side sculpt job of the hut is no longer there um the at at so on the premium version when you destroy him he actually falls to his knees and falls over like he does in movies where my understanding in this when he just stays standing and then there is a magnet in between the flippers where yoda is holding a ball and it's a very interesting concept because it's not like an instant like save you have to push it at the right time on the premium le you can actually launch so if it's coming down the left lane you can launch it back into the shooter lane or there there's a couple other ways you can save it but that's like the best way to save it on the pro the magnet's not there so it's an automatic save if it's lit and it drains so in my opinion if i were to pick up any of these like one of these had to go into my collection i would go the pro i feel like i don't care about sculpts um i can add them if i need to via mod makers and mod makers are very much hit or miss i not going to lie on that But I feel like for the most part with this being something as iconic as Star Wars versus like King Kong where it was his own kind of thing, you're going to be able to find mods easily. You can find cake toppers. You can pull a Toy Story and put those in here. Oh, I'm laughing at myself. I'm lame. Anyhow, I just, I think, I think you're very pleased if you go with a pro on this one. And I think you're getting most of the game experience and everything you love. And I almost forgot, Scott, there was a seventh Ninja Turtle. His name was Spike. He was from the original series. It was Raphael's pet turtle that got put into the mutant gym. So he was around from the beginning. Anyhow. But overall, yeah. Me, personally, if I'm looking for a game that's family out, so it's going to give my kids more of a good experience on a pinball machine, where you're going to start learning basic skills, right? get keys pinball one-on-one lined up on youtube and start going through that those were made for games like this uh orbit shots are great to learn how to do your live catches your drop catches um it's just i feel like everyone should at least have one fan layout and they're in their lineup yeah for the very least for people to enjoy pinball and star wars is very much a title people are going to gravitate towards now if you only have like you only have space like two three games definitely play it see if it's for you i feel like if you're like i said bally williams games they're there that's why people want them is because their family the cactus kings mountains monster bashes meaningful madness attack for us are all family out right and they all have that that kind of cuddly vibe of like one more game because i know i messed up because of my own faults kind of situation um yeah so yeah i think overall i think the only thing that really off puts me about these star wars games like i i grew up on star wars but it's not iconic enough to me to like a day one must buy kind of thing um but it's definitely like the nostalgia button gets hit uh because of my childhood and stuff like that so it's one of those like i would love to find an excuse to put star wars into my collection but i'm not it's not an absolute must-have so if i i'm doing that audience i'm going i'm giving zach many a call at flipping out and text them via messenger and i'm saying hey send me the star wars pro because i think that's the best bang for your buck what do you think scott uh i agree the the one thing that is is challenging is you are sorry the one thing that not challenging wrong term the one thing that the other ones do have and i was trying to read the uh you know analyze the feature matrix to say okay what does this have so there is a cabinet compatible with expression lighting system oh i did forget about that yeah yeah so so okay that is something now okay is that enough uh maybe but yeah so you get custom sculpt a lot of these things are custom sculpt custom sculpt stormtrooper custom sculpt darth vader helmet illuminated java so you get a java light up toy um you got a yeah yeah so your job it can look like so your job it can look like you have radioactive taco bill that would be that would be awesome by the way it lights up right above the toilet bowl tie fighter ship with the spot yeah so i okay now there are times when you buy you when you buy games because they are they look prettier right yeah yeah there are times and and so if that's the thing if you're like you know what it's worth it to me to spend the f because the One thing you're talking about with mod makers, sometimes those mods can get super expensive. Yeah, that's true as well. And so if you're like, you know, I can buy a whole bunch of extra mods and put them in there, but I'm spending X amount of dollars, or I can just buy the OEM stuff. But you're right. This seems like figures out of the box. They don't have much value anyway, and they're just take your original 1977 Luke and stick them in your game for you. Yeah, actually the 1977 Luke would be more valuable than most mods. But yeah, my gut feeling is the Pro would be great. Man, I don't know what I drank today. What did you swallow, man? I don't know. I've been coughing all night. I keep trying to mute my mic, but I miss sometimes. Okay, either way though, this feels like a good Star Wars game. And I was really on the fence of buying the home version. I really want to play this first because this may be the version I'll get. Yeah. And who knows? I may even buy the home version or this version and then swap out the back glass so it says Star Wars on it. But this seems like a fun option. Yeah, I think so as well. And it's John Borg. I feel like John Borg always delivers. Pretty consistent. Pretty consistent. But as we always say. I am shocked Dwight's not on this code because Dwight has very much professed that he is a Star Wars lover. Sure, but he did the last one. He will throw himself. Well, he did the Mandalorian as well. I mean, he's done. Yeah, part of me says that they were looking for a different team approach to this and see what they can do. I love that Rey got the call up on this one, man. Oh, well, yeah. Yeah, I think we've all – we've already professed our undying devotion to Ray and his streamlining and being able to streamline rules for me. So that's great. I don't think I'm smart enough to figure out Dwight's rules, to be blunt. It takes a lot more effort than I really want to put into it. That's true. As much as people might want to belittle Dwight. No, I think they're great rule sets. They're great rule sets. You have to study them. yeah yeah that's the other question too like do you do you fully understand the depths of dwight's codes because if you do no then you probably make a commentary no i i think i'm just a superficial man that's the problem i need superficial uh you know superficial approachability and that's why he owns medieval madness in his collection pretty much hey trust me my my kids love medieval madness they they keep talking about like i can that that's my all the people with ems listening to us right now like really that's your shallow code well okay ems the problem is i like ems but i just don't want the maintenance of the em speaking which i am selling an em right now there you go you can buy here in the corner yeah drive out to vernal it's close to everything it's close to everything and nothing at all if you want to see some dinosaur bones come hang out with us and that's true yeah it's true yeah uh if you're a fan of the show i will not mind letting you hang out with me unless you're really really weird but i if i'm the standard you've got a pretty good chance of not being weird i'm not gonna lie yeah i think we're all good we're all safe yeah we're all dandy so i mean scott's came out here like three or four times and still hasn't visited me he's like oh yeah i'm too busy okay i've only been out there once and uh i mean we went to flaming gorge dam and i was i was only 45 minutes away okay i was with like a church youth group i wasn't gonna take them all there yeah it's a likely story likely story yeah all right so you're buying star wars it sounds like you're gonna play first no you're leaning on the fence towards it i'm interested i'm interested but hey i this is me i always say look you definitely want to play a game first to see if it connects with you yeah always 100 and i i bought mandalorian and i thought mandalorian was fine i just after a while i just lost the connection and and that there's a reason why you're spending a lot of money and having it in your house because you want to keep that connection right yeah true i just you know you say mando and now i'm thinking about was i guess mando probably wasn't was it a fan layout or with the weird well weird play field does that really count it had the fan layout but it also had the the mandalorian helmet there with the single or double flipper and it did have the cool feature of like moving up and down yeah um but that was you know it was it wasn't used as much but i true but i the i think that was from the feed out of the play field is still safe enough that it returns to the flipper so that's why i'm like i know like by traditional standards it's not a it's not a family out because of the way that they did the upper play field even but it just it feels like a family out to me it's still very fanny yeah big old fanny aunt fanny we were using our arms anyhow please tell me you've seen robots manda binds robin williams oh i saw it once and i thought it was should have been so much better than it was yeah did we miss the butt whooping nope you're actually a little bit early come on now again i wish it were funnier than it was watch it with your kids you'll laugh It would not be on my top 10 list of games to be made into pinball or movies to be made into pinball. Okay. I will agree with you there, but there are some great one-liners from that movie. Truly are. It's called The Deep Doo-Doo Bird. I must fly. Yeah? No? Anyhow. Okay. No, but actually, K, do you know what movie that I thought, like a kid movie that was a lot of fun? It was Luck. Surf's Up. No, did you see Luck? It was on Apple TV. It was actually. so john lassiter made it and i actually thought it was kind of charming i thought it was good it was a good kid movie yeah we quote robots and we quote surf's up you've seen surf's up right with the penguins that surf shy the buff oh my goodness it is such a great movie really it's hilarious chicken joe is john here napoleon dynamite yeah yeah and then uh big z jeff bridges aka you know the big lebowski yeah there's a part where like okay the fact that you actually put jeff bridges as the big lebowski as opposed to tron um just to part of me died a little bit i am i am hey it's the audience i know that this audience right here loves this audience loves the big lebowski yeah i i hear occasionally tron but they're always like big lebowski and you know a white russian with with the rug. You know, Kate, Big Lebowski, it's like Pulp Fiction. I saw it once and I'm like, yeah, it's okay. Like, I never understood the cult following. Yeah. That's a different story for a different time, though. Yeah, exactly. Okay, overall, it sounds like what we say with most new games. Get out and play it. And then hit us up at Expo. Hit us up at Expo and tell me what you're thinking too oh yeah we'll be there we'll be there and then friday at 11 you me retro ralph jared ingleberth and jack ingleberth it's going to be at the at the uh we're doing a content creation did you really say jack ingleberth that's what's on the uh did you not see that on triple trade that's what oh are you kidding no i missed that yeah so the expo schedule says that we have jack eagle birth okay but i really okay since i didn't know if i was going to be able to make it i don't even think it has me on there so you're not on it no no this got printed a little while ago this is yeah you i submitted the names like three weeks before and then you hit me up like hey you're making it to expo and i was like oh cool yeah so uh yeah come join us uh we will have fun if you're if you're interested about content creation or how we do all these shenanigans or if you want to do your own and you want some points and whatnot some pointers and stuff like that we'll be talking all about that you want to come and harass us you definitely can uh i might just tell us why we stink at what we do yeah yeah definitely okay either way either way we are going to uh we are going to be in uh in expo so please come up say hi and uh josh are you still taking orders for for hats or anything like that we we are if you want to get a hat uh hit up i think i'll put the drop the link in the description um we're only doing them till the end of the month so the way it's going to work you're pre-ordering now you're agreeing to yes i will be on the list then when the end of the month hits i will email you and say hey i have you on the list for this many hats this is how much it will cost are you still in because i'm ordering it now and then you do not have to be at expo it just if you want to save some money on a hat and not have me ship them to you i will bring them to expo it's what i've done every year for the last three or four years um so uh yeah i'm more than happy to do that i have found out so they have really limited so the hats that we're doing are the fitted ones that like are custom made like i have a company here in town that buys the new arrows and then they custom do the thing and so it's it's not something we can sell via silver ball swag it's just it's a very custom item i only do it once a year this is the ones that ellen wears carrie hardy and like every one of his video he wears i'm actually getting him a couple more we're doing them and we can only do them it's it's a charcoal hat and then with red or green accents um and then we have exclusive to patreon blue at cyber blue um one gentleman that knows that we will be coming to expo is taking advantage of the shipping he's buying six hats cool if that's what you want to do awesome um it's that time of season so i'll bring them to you or if you need me to ship them i don't mind shipping them to you if you're out of the states i will still ship them to you but you do realize like there will be an added cost and we will we will cross that bridge if you decide to come to it so okay sorry i'm a little i'm a little long-winded today don't forget we got loser new loser kid shirts the loser talica and loser house so if you like fun house or metallica they're on there now and they look great they're fun they look fantastic thanks vic vp for doing those for us um couple shout outs glenn Glenn Waechter dude seriously like he's always on the money and uh i'm excited to see uh my understanding is he may or may not have a new project they had saw there last year and he did all the sound for that they may or may not have new project expo this year so you're definitely gonna want to check that out like he does our outro he did our outro music so obviously the music you're depending on where we stop this you may be hearing it right now or you might be hearing in like 30 seconds content creator of of the uh episode you know one guy i i always think of but i never say hey you should go check him out if you just want really randomness with like stream of thought that has like it's just like some dude talking and then just happens to have pinball on it. Orbital Albert, dude. He's on Poor Man's Pinball Network. He's keeping that thing alive. He's got a few subscribers. Go hit him up. Definitely worth a listen. If you haven't listened to his episodes, definitely worth it. Anything else, Scott, before we sign off? No, just catch us at Expo. We'd love to meet up with you and say hi. Sounds good. If you want to get a hold of us, we are losergavepinball at gmail.com. lizardkidpinballpodcasts at gmail.com if you want to get hold of us on all socials at lizardkidpinball all that jazz see you at Expo Thank you.