It's time now for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teels. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com, including your new RSS feeds and all previous shows. Check it out at pinballprofile.com. Check out our Facebook group. We're on Twitter and Instagram at pinballprofile, and you can email us at pinballprofile at gmail.com. This is a real thrill for me to be talking to a pinball legend, Hall of Famer, Mount Rushmore perhaps even of pinball. He's George Gomez and he joins us right now. Hi George, how are you? Like the build-up? Hey Jeff, yeah thanks for that build-up. Oh, I hope I can live up to that. Well earned George for your history too. We're going to get into some of that. We're going to certainly talk about the current structure of 2020 and what that means with COVID-19 and all things Stern Pinball. There's a lot to cover, so we'll get right into it. Recently saw you online, a little Zoom picture with the staff. So there is work still being done at Stern Pinball. Obviously not in the factory with the, I guess, Governor Ban in Illinois for mass gatherings and whatnot. But there is still work being done. And I assume when this all comes back to, quote unquote, normal, we're going to see another great year for Stern Pinball. You know, I hope so. Yeah, absolutely. There's work being done. the entire studio is busy and working and being incredibly productive at working from home. So, you know, we have I think it really speaks to to discipline, really, more than anything. The fact that we've been as productive as we've been in this in this really difficult time is sort of, you know, it's kind of a testament to the way that we run the studio where, you know, we have we've become video conferencing experts in, in the time that we've been away dealing with this. And we're very fortunate that everybody's healthy and all the teams are plugging away. But yeah, we have video conferencing meetings. When necessary, we go into the shop and mess around. And really, it's the discipline of our structure that makes us as productive as we've been. I mean, I've been very, very happy with all the stuff I'm seeing. I mean, we're doing game reviews online. We're doing, you know, on video conferencing, we're doing licensor meetings and submissions. You know, we're doing team meetings just the way we always do them, except that now they're video conferencing. You know, that photo that you referenced was the software meeting, which happens once a week. But in addition to that, those guys have been working together and alone, if you will. They do a daily, day-long video conference where they're just all in their own spaces working away, but they're all sort of in the room, if you will. And so there's a lot of banter back and forth and a lot of conversation, camaraderie. And, you know, it's kind of cool because, you know, you can mute the team if you don't want to participate or you can interact if you want to. It's a new way to work. We're doing pretty well with it. As we hear sirens go off in the background, I'm sure none of us want to be in this situation. We would like things to be back to normal, but you have to look at what hand you've been dealt. And I guess in some ways, you're actually more productive with this stay at home and programmers are able to really have that kind of dedicated time to work on current projects, future projects, past projects. But there has to be some handcuffs too, whether it be parts accessibility, whether it be the actual physical playing of Whitewoods or whatever the case may be. What are the difficult parts right now with COVID-19? Yeah, I think that the tough stuff is not having the physical camaraderie of being together to play a game is a challenge. You know, the fact that we're playing the games sort of by ourselves, you know, in separate locations is a challenge. The games are being played, you know, and I think the challenge of the situation is in and of itself a focus, right? And so it's like, you know, we have families and we have, you know, we have to interact with the world in some ways. You know, you have to acquire food and you have to take care of the normal things you have to take care of. And so I think, you know, yeah, there's pros and cons, right? You know, I don't miss commuting two hours a day. You know, I don't miss commuting an hour in the morning and an hour home. I don't miss that. But at the same time, you know, you come in and out of your your your house and you have to wash your hands. And it's it's it's a different existence right now. Won't always be this way. I think that, you know, we've been very, very fortunate. We have gotten our consumer business has been remarkably strong, even in light of this. And that's really a testament to the customer base. We thank you so much. I mean, people are who could imagine that in the middle of a pandemic, people are ordering Pima machines. But, you know, it does happen. So clearly our commercial business is very challenged and those guys are hurting and they're going to it's going to take a little while long for them to come back. They've been very creative, right, with, you know, with home rentals and all of those kinds of things. But the dealer side of the world, the consumer side, has been remarkably robust for us. And that's been a surprise. While we're stuck at home, we need something to do. I mean, I've had ACDC for years here, and only just two days ago I finally got to Encore. So there are some positive things about staying at home, and having games from Stern Pinball certainly would help. Yeah, it's much easier to play pinball when I'm at home then even when I'm at work, because it seems like when I'm at work, there's always something going on. And my playtime is either very early in the morning or very late at night before I go home. You talked about the home collectors, and that's something that's certainly grown over the years. We're seeing more barcades. We're seeing more pinball location. It is going to be a struggle once we're out of this pandemic. I think of some of the games that have been released recently for Stern. And you certainly have your amazing Cornerstone games and the different models. And then you have some special games recently, Elvira, House of Horrors, The Beatles, which you were amazing on, and the same for Batman 66. So these are three kind of games you probably wouldn't see on location, although it's amazing. You do see them out and about for sure. I'm wondering if the focus now will be more towards the home collectors versus the operators, just because I heard you once talk, I think it was on Head to Head, where you were talking about your CFO and his great knowledge of supply and demand. You gave a baseball card reference with tops and really knowing what the collector wants. And that's kind of how you figured out with dealers 500 of the LEs or whatever the number may be. I'm wondering if that will actually increase now more with coming out of this pandemic. You know, it's hard to say because one of the beauties of the commercial product, the pro product, is the price point. You know, it's a pretty strong pinball machine. And depending on how the design comes out, in some cases, we do a better job with a pro. It's a real difficult balance to design the pro, the premium, and the limited edition in such a way that they appeal to all of the different segments that they need to appeal to. The limited edition is in some ways easy because you put the kitchen sink in it and you move on. And the challenge is that distinction between the pro and the premium where you need to put additional play value in that premium. And by the way, premium playfields and limited edition playfields are identical. There's no difference. So there's no more play value in the limited edition than there is in a premium. But, you know, sometimes just the simplicity of a pro tends to make it a better shooting game. And in some cases, you know, just not necessarily because we wanted to make the pros more popular than the premiums. They became more popular because they shot better, because, you know, there's additional architecture or additional toys or features in the premium that didn't really resonate with the layout. So we have that balance. I don't know that the commercial products are going to go away. We're going to do everything in our power to help the guys that are operating games in whatever way we can come back from this. We're interested in a commercial market as much as we are in a consumer market. The three games that you mentioned are significant because in the case of Batman, it was intended to be a game that celebrated the 30th anniversary of the company. and we decided that Mr. West was getting up in years. If we were really going to do something with him, we needed to do it then and there. And we wanted, with the game came some unique challenges in that we had tons of video to use, which was great, but also with that comes the fact that it takes a long time to put all that stuff in there and it took us a while. and you know Lyman did a remarkable and amazing job like he always does and then you know we the notion of taking the old Dark Knight which we and Tim and I worked on and and sort of refreshing it and you know it was a second bite at the apple which you don't usually get and so what don't we like about the original game and how do we fix that and that's really the reason that the original game, you know, they hadn't really backed, that was before we were doing pros. We did experiment with a, like a sort of a costed down version of the Dark Knight, which we made in very limited quantities. But that was like much after the fact, much after we had released the game. So, I mean, I think that those games all had unique sort of design goals. The Beatles was a game that, again, you know, you have an incredibly iconic license, incredibly expensive because of what it is because it's after all the Beatles. And you have to look at the cost. We operate, we're a business, and I've said this many times, it has to make business sense. And so when you attach the cost of the license to the product, you have to make the financials make sense. And in addition to that, you have a product that in and of itself, it was going to be a niche market product. We looked at it and said, okay, so I don't know if this is going to go everywhere. It turns out we were very surprised in the number of commercial operations that selected the game because it was sort of a simple game that anyone could flip, and the music being so iconic, recognizable by everybody. Whether you're into it or not, it was recognizable. It ended up that even though it was priced like a premium because of having to deal with the cost of the license, it was a game that ended up in quite a few locations. It's a good street piece. It's actually, you know, the game earns well, and it's very approachable. And in sort of a casual entertainment scenario, like a pub, it's awesome because, you know, you don't have to know a lot about pinball. You don't have to know a lot about that game. there's not a big story to be told. You know, it's, hey, it's the Beatles come to America. It's just a fun celebration of those events and that music. And so, you know, that story sort of in a nutshell. The Elvira product, you know, was with having Greg Ferreris on my staff. You know, he's been talking about it forever. And, you know, Greg and Dennis had a following with those games. And again, we looked at it and said, well, I don't know if it's going to fit in every location. I don't know if it's mass market appeal, but there's definitely a demand for it within the hardcore pinball community. And so that's the reason we went in that direction. The other challenge with that game was the fact that Dennis was a consulting designer to us. And we always have to make, like I said, the business side has to work for us. And what that means is that, like, if the schedules don't line up and we can't put the resources to that game because the resources are otherwise committed, then that game concept just has to sit until we can get to it. Dennis did his part, and then he had to move on in terms of his career, and we couldn't support it at that particular time. So we had it on the shelf for a while and then picked it up and went back to it, very happy with the way it came out. And it's still, you know, it's a game that's going to surprise us in terms of how well it sells because it's, you know, it's definitely got a sort of that whole longevity thing happening where there's, you know, every month some more orders trickle in that, you know, you weren't expecting. So, yeah, it's another strong piece. Again, you know, Greg and Lyman work tirelessly on that thing, both passion project. It's a passion project for Greg, for sure. And, you know, Lyman's craftsmanship, the amount of attention to detail that he puts into every game that he touches, you know, is a thing that's a part of his character. and he doesn't know how to phone it in. You know, it's impossible for him to phone it in. So you're going to get a very detailed, very crafted game from him. We see Lyman working on that. We see Lyman working on past games as well, too. You talked about how long it took to get to Batman 66, where it is just a brilliant masterpiece of a game. For me, I've always said on this program, other programs, you know, if the game shoots well, I personally don't really care what the code is when it gets released because you know it will get there. But the great thing about Stern is the code's almost finished every time it's released. So it's not like there's a lot more you have to really add. There's a lot of spit and polish, but certainly there's great updates that we see. But again, for me, as a player, as a competitor, I care the most about how it shoots off the bat. So honestly, it's kind of like looking at it through the rose-colored glasses of the last couple of years. You're right, there's a lot of stuff that's shipped in a fairly complete fashion, but the reality is that there's a lot of stuff that we shipped in the past out of necessity in very incomplete fashion, Batman being one of them. So we trying very hard as a studio to get to the point where we ship a game and it 1 code when we ship it And we not there yet And we have a lot of work to do to get there But we're consciously very focused on that. And again, in some of these things I sound like a broken record because I've said it many times. And I don't like for it to come up as an excuse because I want to own the fact that we know we're not shipping finished. games and we want to get to the point where we're shipping finished games. But there's also a lot of peripheral things that people don't see that have nothing to do with our effort or our ability to finish the game. There are a ton of licensing challenges and every license or relationship is different. The requirements from them are all different. There are financial and economic constraints and there are manufacturing constraints that have to be taken into account. Durability issues, right? So, you know, it's not unheard of that we would have, you know, that we have a durability issue that comes up in testing and it delays development because, you know, we haven't solved the problem or it takes us some amount of time to get to a solution. So those are the things that nobody ever sees and nobody ever talks about. Everybody just talks about the game's unfinished. And there's almost always reasons why the game's, why the particular product is in the state that it's in. Are you suggesting that Pinside perhaps, call me crazy, might overreact to certain games being released and the way they're released? Come on, George, are you kidding? Well, I think that negativity in forums has a life of its own. You know, it's like the takes on a life of its own and things get magnified and things get just analyzed to, you know, to incredible levels of detail. And I think people fabricate a lot of stuff in it. And there's a lot of myth that goes with those, you know, those discussions. You know, there's like it's no different than talking, you know, about politics or the situation in the world or, you know, where the virus came from or, you know, was it purposely leaked or, you know, did it escape from a lab? When I see some of those things that I see in the forums, I try really hard to avoid the forums because I don't want to deal with the craziness. Sometimes I want to reach through the screen and scream. You're so far off, it's not even funny. But regardless, I think it is what it is. It's the age we live in. We didn't have to deal with this in the 90s. Because no one had a voice, and now everyone with a voice is an expert behind a keyboard. Right. RGP was the closest thing to the modern forums, and it was not significant in the scope because it did not have that level of popular interaction. So, yeah, it's a different world. But if you make something, you put yourself out for criticism, and that's the nature of the beast. right you think of when you first started making pinball machines with corvette and you know you didn't have to deal with the forms and whatnot no i was it was it was absolutely a different time that's for sure what would people have said when corvette came out first of all would have been like uh i'm a ford guy so forget it corvette i don't like it just because of the theme or you know whatever something silly like that i remember people saying one of the worst criticisms i ever saw about iron maiden which might just be a perfect pinball machine was i don't like the band so i don't like it i'm like what does that have to do with anything oh yeah i think uh you know you can take every game my second game johnny mnemonic was a game that didn't do well back in the day and today you know it has a it has like a cult following and it's a great game i'm going to interrupt you here for a second sorry george it's a great game and i'm guessing the only reason it might not have been as big as it was is because maybe the movie wasn't as big as it was but it's funny that the game is better than the theme and you've got games that are great themes but maybe not the greatest game you know back to the future daddies it's not exactly a winner when it comes to a great pinball machine it's a perfect theme but yeah you know what i mean so you you've got two polar opposite games there and maybe that was the reason for what johnny did or didn't know i think i think was so so i got up a lot about the i remember that the scoring the super inflated scoring was something people didn't like. I think that some of the progression through the game, I think there was a lot of hardcore guys, you know, beat me up about that. But, you know, it's like, I love flipping that game. That game is really fast. It's probably the fastest, smoothest game I've ever made. And I enjoyed it a lot. I mean, I had a lot of fun with that, you know, all the plates spinning mode at the very top of the game, power down. I wish, you know, is my second effort, and I wish I could make that game today knowing what I know about game progression, and I wish I had the tools I have today to make that game. You know, I had this vision of elements of the playfield powering down and you having to fight and struggle to keep the game alive, and in the midst of this very sort of sci-fi countdown to add pressure to what you had to do, right? And I think that presentation with all the stuff that we have to work with today could be spectacular. The areas of the play field dimming down and going out, which look at a John Mnemonic, and I was still working with the Willie 64 lamp limit and stuff like that. And so I could do that. I think that I could really sell the concepts I had in that game. I could sell them a lot better with today's technology. Yeah, you were limited with the timing when that game came out. That's interesting because you mentioned that. You talked about the Dark Knight and if you had a second bite of the apple. Yep. Okay. If we've got a crystal ball or a time machine even where you could go back, you've mentioned two games. Is there one thing that you've done in your history where you could say, in pinball, I wish I did that? I can tell you ones I wouldn't change. Like, I can tell you that I wouldn't touch a Monster Bash. I don't think there's anything that I would do to that game. I think that game is, I'm very happy with the way that game came out. So I wouldn't mess with that. More disco maybe from Dracula. I love when he dances. A couple of moves. Yeah, and he's got, it's interesting the amount of speech calls we put in those games. You know, I mean, we put a lot of effort into that. I'm not sure I would mess with a Deadpool. I think that I'm pretty happy with the way that came out. I don't know if you talk to me three years from now if I'm still going to feel that way, but I feel I'm pretty happy with the way that came out. I mean, there's some things I've heard customers talk about, some high score tables and things like that. You know, that's easy stuff. Yeah, you could probably use that. But in terms of what the game is, I'm pretty happy with it. And so I think, you know, a revenge from Mars, I think I'm pretty happy with that. I don't know that I would change much. So there's nothing. George, I've got to ask you. You're a VP. You're the chief creative officer. You interview people. You interview staffs. I'm sure one of the questions you ask them is, how do you deal with some of the challenges you've had? And, you know, questions like that. So you're saying there's no challenges? No, I'm not. I'm just kidding. I think there's lots of challenges. I'm just saying that maybe I misunderstood the question. I'm saying there's games that I wouldn't – there's games I would go back and try to improve, and there's games that I think are pretty much there, and I wouldn't mess with them. And so in my roster, my portfolio of games, I can tell you lots of things I would fix, you know, if I had to fix, right? I wish I would have had more time to mess with the Hulk in the Avengers. I wish that I would have had more time to play with the cross shot, the Black Widow cross shot. Is that why in Deadpool we see a similar shot and it's basically perfection? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like that's very insightful that you made that connection because very few people have. and so clearly an inspiration or I shouldn't say an inspiration, a motivation. A motivation to make the shot cleaner, better, cooler. But I think that I would mess with, I could probably improve all my games in some way but there's some that I wouldn't want to. There's nothing I want to do to a Monster Bash. There's nothing I want to do. I don't think there's much I want to do to an NBA Fast Break. I don't think there's much I want to do to a Deadpool. But yet there's others. I think Corvette needed an easier sort of bozo way of starting races. And I think that, you know, I mean, I can go down the list and I know that you don't have to. Your games are great, George. I'm just I'm just trying to figure out what kind of perfectionist you are. And if the little things bother you or not, because they do others that, you know, the little things bother the hell out of me. It's just that the little things that bother me may not be the same little things that bother somebody else. So I'm, you know, nobody knows this except my engineers, right? I'm a fanatic about my CAD. My CAD is, like, everything fits. Nothing, you know, like, I try really hard to, like, I'm not a bend-it-on-the-line guy. I'm like, stuff's got to drop together. It's got to, you know, it's got to be a similar. And it was hard to learn. I don't think you can say that about some of my earlier games, but I'm very focused on this. My engineers get really clean 3D CAD from me, and there's sort of an anal level of detail about all of this. I worry a lot about how things are mass produced. I worry a lot about how things are manufactured. I think that, you know, I focus on – I don't ask. I'm very sensitive to materials. I think the material needs to be asked what it inherently does. I don't believe in forcing materials to be something they're not. And so, you know, this is sort of inside stuff that nobody would know that gets attention. So, yeah, I mean, I like a lot of control at that level. And that's the stuff I iterate a lot on. And, you know, sometimes I don't get it right. But, you know, I get a lot of satisfaction when I do get it right. You know, that's the sign of a real artiste to me is you've got this vision, you want it executed. But because pinball is so complicated, there are so many different working parts and different people contributing to this game, even though it is your singular direction from the initial concept. It's tough to let go. I can't imagine how difficult that may be. And if there are compromises made just because of licensing, because of the ability to get parts, manufacturing, whatever the case may be, that's got to be very, very difficult to almost step back a little bit and accept this is the best it can be. So you touched on a couple of things. One thing you touched on is the notion that these are collaborative efforts. And I believe very strongly in that. And I think that one of the elements that is most important in a designer is leadership. And leadership means allowing the other talents on your team to have a voice and giving them the room to do and be who they are. Because every product that I've made in the way of Pimaw Machines has been a collaborative effort. and every one of those guys that I've worked with has made me better. And the product without those guys wouldn't be the product that you see and experience because every one of those guys has brought their own talent and energy and enthusiasm and dedication to it in their own way, right? I don't know how else to tell you that, but that's a reality. And I think a designer with too heavy of a hand is a designer that is lacking in leadership. You have to be confident. You have to have enough self-confidence. Nothing is taken away by letting someone else explore his ideas in the context of your vision. And that's how I see it. And that's what I try to encourage in the young guys. And the other thing that you touched on is what I consider being practical. And being practical means being able to quickly move on. When you run into a brick wall or something is not exactly, precisely the way that you envisioned it, you need to make choices, and the choices have to be made on the move, on the run, because that's the nature of the world we live in. It's the schedule. It's the price. It's the demands of the licensor. It's the fact that you couldn't make the thing work right. You know, the best designers are those that say, okay, that didn't work. Let's do something else. Or, you know, when the computer graphics guys show up and say, yeah, no, there's no way we can get that done in that time frame. So give me three other ideas to pursue that I can. And so I think that that's being practical. And I think I'm practical and I cherish that in my designers. and I try really hard to make the ones that aren't practical practical and to expose them to the nature of just the realities of our existence. It's like I can't add three months to your schedule so that you can sort this out. You had X amount of time. It didn't work. You've got to move on. Let's make some intelligent choices. You know, and yes, that's a little bit different than being obsessively focused on one vision and staying the course to see that vision through. Maybe you can do that in art but in mass production I don know That great clarification And I know how important your weekly or daily meetings are with all different parties whether it be the coders the game designers the manufacturers the artists, whatever the case may be, and all that input is very, very important. So I'm glad you gave that explanation so that people understand that it is this incredible team that puts together all these wonderful pinball machines. I want to go back to your early history, too, even before pinball, as a toy maker. Because when we think of George Gomez pinball machines, we think of these great toys. And I've heard you say, you know, my bottoms are pretty standard on pinball machines. I start with the toy. I think you started with Little Deadpool. I think you started with the mech in Batman 66. So these toys are not exactly easy pieces when it comes to pinball. What have you learned over the years when it comes to toys? So I think the magic is that you have to sort of, it sounds ridiculous to say it, but the reality is that pinball is a medium. And designing a pinball machine means that you're working inside the medium. And it's like a medium similar to oil paint is a medium that a painter uses that's distinct and unique in how it feels, how the oil paint takes to the canvas as opposed to watercolor, where watercolor takes to the papers that it's used with in a different way. It's a different technique, and you have to be successful in the medium. You have to exploit the elements of the medium. And part of the medium of pinball, to some extent, is the limits of the architecture. So the limits of the architecture, the physical constraints, 20 and a quarter, 45 and a half, more or less the space within the cabinet and stuff, those limitations begin to present the challenges of creativity relative to what you're going to do. And the next thing is that within the medium, you have to adequately exploit and represent the theme. And that's where the toys come in, right? Because that's a strong element to me. So when I look at a theme, I begin thinking about what are all the things that we can do. And in some cases, maybe there's a piece of music that is significant. and we have to use it. You know, could you make a James Bond game without the James Bond theme? Not very easily. And so the more you explore the medium and you immerse yourself in whatever the theme is, things have to become obvious that you're going to try to build. You know, when the guy's working on Star Wars, right, it's like, well, I mean, come on. We've got to destroy the Death Star. How do you not destroy the Death Star? That just seems like an obvious thing that comes from the theme, right? And so there's a lot. See, now I would have had the Cantina Bar Band sing a different song. That would have been my kind of wizard mode. But Death Star is a good choice. And we wanted that, by the way. But I think the theme drives the toys. The thing about the toys for me is that I've been really fortunate that I've spent, I've worked on a lot of things over the course of my career, right? So I came out of design school, I went to work in Midway Games, and I made early 80s upright coin-operated video games. And I learned a lot of things, and that was my first exposure to sort of the business, the coin-operated game business. And we had very limited hardware resources, and we did a lot with what we had. And I learned a lot about the notion of engaging a player. And, you know, there's an elegance in doing a lot with very little. And that experience, that time, those seven years of my life were pivotal in that, in beginning to structure that thinking. I left there and I went to work at Marvin Glasson Associates, the most famous and most successful toy inventor of toys in the world. And that studio taught me a lot of new things. They taught me about idea generation because their entire world was inventions. Everything was invent something, license it to a major toy company. And when you license it to a major toy company, it was near impossible to sell styling. Nobody's going to pay you millions of dollars for styling of a toy, but they will pay you millions of dollars for a gimmick that's unique and patentable and that can create a point of difference and hopefully an entire line of products on the shelf. And so that was the business of invention at Marvin Glass and Associates. And the other thing that they taught me a lot about being completely self-sufficient because I worked alone and no one would tell you what to work on. So whatever ideas you had is what you had to work on. And you didn't have a ton of resources to help you realize your ideas. So pretty easily, pretty quickly, if you're going to survive in that environment, you have to become a one-man show. You have to know your way around the shop, and you have to know your way around how to make stuff. And because you're inventing gimmicks, it doesn't matter what the gimmick is, but you're working with very little to do a lot. Nice foreshadowing 30, 40 years ago to being able to think of 2020 and working by yourself, but really just the invention there too. I think most people know about the Gorf joystick handle, which we see also in Tron and just something legendary. In pinball, the big thing lately has been there's the action button now and something. It's the boom in Deadpool. It's the smart missiles in Jurassic Park. It's a lot of different things. It's TIE fighters. I'm a fan of unique things in pinball. I like my hands being at the side, so I don't mind hitting it once, twice, three times. That's fine. But if we're going to do something really unique, forget the action button. Think of old Demoman and how I'm the only guy who actually plays up top. I like that difference. I want Gorf or Tron handles on the next pinball machine you come up with. You could do so much more with that. Not going to happen, but okay. Darn it. All right. I think, yeah, you know, I think that, you know, there's something to be said for also respecting the sort of the traditions of the of the particular medium right and so i think that when we vary too much i don't know that you know we get to a place where i think we alienate the fan base so i think we have to be careful with stuff like that but you know i think i've told my guys many times that uh you know the ball and bat aspects of pinball you know the ball and the flippers are sort of sacred. And that's the, you know, those are the things that we're not going to mess with. And everything else is sort of up for discussion. And so, you know, there's a reason that the form factor of a pinball machine hasn't radically changed in so many years, because it all sort of works. And so that things like little details and fits and finishes and stuff like that will evolve and hopefully get better. And some argue that's wavered over the years. But the reality is that the form factor, you know, back glass in the back, you know, a display and a play field, that's going to endure because it is part of what defines a pinball machine. It's what you see within those confines that you mentioned. And I think of some of your great toys too, and they stand out and it's the centerpiece of a lot of the games that we see from Stern Pinball. I think of some of the toys that I can only imagine may have been, whether it's a great invention, there comes difficulty with some of these toys and how are they going to work? This is the first time we're using this. The Batman 66 toy, the Black Knight Sword of Rage centerpiece toy, the new Stranger Things toy, and all the features that come into that game. How much time is spent on these aspects of the game? How difficult are they? What are the ones that have pulled your hair out the most? When it comes to these toys, it's not easy when you're creating something brand new so there have to be some difficulties yeah there's a lot um so it is one of the most complex things that we do depending on what the toy is right and so you know yeah batman 66 was was substantially challenging indexing the turntable accurately getting all of the different things that happen up there to work if you think about it in concert was a big deal, right? And then, you know, I had a thing in that game late in the development process because we did so much development without really worrying about it. And then, you know, one day I had to, like, make sure that the cables didn't get all tangled up in the bottom of that thing, right? And boy, I'll tell you, I messed around with that for a while and then came up with a tube that had some combination of materials and the geometry that keeps that cable, you know, working. And And remarkably, that device has been – it's one of the most complex devices that I've ever dreamt up. And at the same time, it turns out it's been one of the most reliable because we were so afraid of it that we paid so much attention to all the different things that it had to do. But, yeah, these things take a lot of time. They take a lot of effort because it's a collaborative effort, right? The software engineers is a lot of times having to write special drivers for them, and we have to anticipate all kinds of weird state conditions relative to the device's performance. What if this happens? Because it's not only about what it works as you designed it. A lot of times it's about what happens when it doesn't work the way you designed it. You know, and so the mechanical engineers, you know, I mean, there's it's a lot of complexity. Electrical engineers with some of the sensing technology. And I mean, it's it's it's a collaborative, super intense effort. You know, the dinosaur head in Jurassic Park, those guys came to see me. They were going to give up on it. They were ready to walk away from it because like they had run into a whole bunch of different struggles. and I spent an afternoon in the shop like jamming some plastic together to try to, you know, with electromagnet, trying to get all the things to do what it did. And once I demoed it, it gave them the confidence to, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, like that. And then we moved on, right? But those things are, they're challenging. They're a bitch. I mean, they really are. But, you know, I mean, can you imagine that game without a dinosaur that eats the ball? And that's what I told them. I said, guys, you can't do this. We have to make this work. We have to figure this out. So we were like, well, we tried A, we tried B, we tried C. Okay, here, let me give it a shot. You know, I think a lot of the toys and a lot of that stuff, I tell people I think that I'm blessed in that I could not be doing the job I'm doing had I not been all the places I've been, right? So I learned a lot about mechanisms and getting things to work quickly in my marbling glass days. I learned a lot about engaging a player with a very limited subset of tools, you know, sounds, visuals, etc. in my video game days in the early 80s. I moved into, after my Marvin Glass days, I worked on novelty games, which was a real range of different mechanisms, some of them more complex, some of them less complex than the stuff we do today. And that informed me in some ways. Then I went to Williams Pinball, and I spent, you know, whatever it was, nine years doing those things and learned a lot about the nature of pinball. That's where I learned pinball. After Williams Pinball, I went, you know, I ran an Xbox and PlayStation video game team, a very large video game team. I learned a lot about managing software development because that's what those games were. and I learned a lot about the computer graphics elements and just all of the different talents and all the different things that are required to do this. And so it's kind of like every one of those work experiences has informed me to give me the tools to be able to do the job I'm doing today. Had I not been all those places and experienced all those different product development scenarios, all those different studios, all those different talents that I learned from, all those different people that taught me and mentored me. I don't think I could do the work I do today. George, you miss the simpler times. You talk about how technology has changed. And let's go back to the toy making days. If you could have made one toy in your life, aside from Tonka Splash Darts, we're talking the other great toys. This is kind of a psychology question in the sense that, is it more about the success of the toy, the invention of the toy, the uniqueness of it? You get your choice. Which one would you like to put your name on? Cabbage Patch Dolls, the Rubik's Cube, or Star Wars figurines? Well, it's interesting. That's a really tough question. I don't know. I'm not sure I can answer that on the fly. I may have to think about that for a while. Take your time. I'll tell you this. I don't think that complexity necessarily guarantees success. I think that I tell my guys all the time, you know, give me five amazing things. I don't care that you have 18 modes in your game. I don't, you know, do you have five amazing things, five things that I'm so engaged and so entertained with? And, you know, we talked earlier about simple, engaging games, right? Monster Bash is a simple, engaging game, right? And I can play that all the time. And it's not an epic adventure. It's just kind of a fun, simple thing to play. And so it's entertaining. And that's really what games are. They need to be entertaining. And so I don't know that complexity guarantees success. I'm a big fan of simplicity. And I think that, you know, I've made mistakes. I've made complexity mistakes and I've made I've also had a lot of success with simplicity. I think I think there's simplicity. And, you know, you look at you can't separate. You know, it's like it's the it's kind of like the it's the conglomeration of all the all the stuff. Right. It's not any one thing, right? So it does, yes. Yes, it begins with, I believe that every member of the team has to make a contribution, and the game designer prime directive beyond laying out the arc and scope of the project creatively is also give me a play field that fun to flip just with nothing in it If it fun to flip with nothing in it everything you do subsequently is going to improve that It's going to take that to another level. And then if you think about the philosophy of the stuff in the bozo zone, the center device that you engage with, that's really about something for the novice. And it's the escalation of the progression of different things. Do this, then that. That appeals to a more advanced player. But the novice has to flip in the bozo zone and something cool's got to happen. Because if something cool doesn't happen, he's not going to coin up again. He's not going back at it. He's going to walk away. So that focal point, the Black Knight toy, the Demogorgon, the Batman mini play field, Little Deadpool, that stuff is smack dab in your face. You're going to get everybody's walking away from a Deadpool with a multiball. You also got to have things like mech suit multiball, which not everybody's going to get. Our audits say a pretty small number of people routinely in the grand scheme of things. And so I think that's that balance, right? You know, easy to learn, hard to master. That's that balance. Every game designer designing any game, doesn't matter what it is, has to have those kinds of things. I love hearing that you're saying fun is more of the focus than being deep because it's great when you can have both. Lord of the Rings is a perfect example. Deadpool, you give another example of these are fun to shoot. You've got easy things. You've got a Balrog. You've got the center ring. You've got little Deadpool, all these things that in the bozo zone, if you will. that the novice player are going to enjoy, but you've got so much more in the deeper aspect too. Lord of the Rings is the great example of, I tried to make it so that wherever the ball went, it felt like you had done something, you know, whether you did it by design or not. And I think Keith did a masterful job. He's another one of those guys that, you know, crafts, you know, the details of progression very well. And, you know, he chose to put, you know, he put But all of that depth is a function of him working all of that progression. And so I gave him a thing to work with. And so I think the fact that no matter where that ball goes, it feels like something's happened or you've done something is part of the novice appeal, you know, whether or not anyone ever makes it to the top of that game. You want people to have fun. And I noticed something new on the latest Stern of the Union. it was the target game time adjusted ball save, if you will, so that if you're out on location, operators can set it up so, you know what, you're going to get to play for two, three minutes, whatever the case may be. I think that's pretty unique because that might get more people excited from pinball. If you put in your first quarter, your first in Canada loonie, if you put in your first dollar and you've just lost three balls really quickly, you're probably not going to put in that second dollar. But if you get to hit a few things, have some fun, and you talk about easy starts like Little Deadpool, even the ramp on Jurassic Park, you're going to get into a T-Rex multiball pretty quickly. The toys that you see on Black Knight Sword of Rage, there's lots of fun to happen. If you have this adjusted ball save, this target game time, I think you're going to get more people excited about pinball. Yep, and those guys got a patent on that thing, which is why you just saw us announce it, because the patent was granted. So, yeah, I think that's exactly that's that's a lot of the thought process is more ways of keeping people engaged in the product. Right. And, you know, that's that comes from not only watching a lot of people play, but playing a lot. I mean, that's that's really that's the stuff that triggers those kinds of those kinds of ideas. As we're dealing with this pandemic and COVID-19 right now, 2020 is going to be a challenging year. We talked about it a little bit off the top of the show. The success of Stern going from 2018 to 2019 where this ridiculous amount of games were released. I thought we were going to see three cornerstones. There were several games released in 2019. 2020 certainly offers a lot of challenges and financial, production, health. There's so many issues right now in our world today. What is going to be the definition of success for Stern Pinball when this year is done? I think the definition of success is to get through this and both try to get the health of the business back to what it was and stay physically healthy for all of the folks that work for the company. Everybody from the assembly line guys right now, the manufacturing guys are spending a tremendous amount of time designing and wrapping their heads around what the world's going to be like when we come back to build Puma machines. And so every aspect of the company, it sounds trivial to say it, but we really are a team. We don't always agree. It's not always happy, happy from department to department, et cetera. But we're a team, and we recognize that. Everybody on the team right now is focused on their piece of it for getting through this and coming out so that sometime down the road, we can continue the growth of the company, which has been amazing over the course of the last 10 years. And so our intent is to get through it in a healthy way and come out the other end and be the Stern Pinball that we've always been. So, yeah, lots of challenges, financial and physical and, you know, health and all of this stuff, right? You had a factory that was like just churning when this, you know, we were, you know, we were on an amazing high. We were, you know, we had a spectacular year last year and, you know, we're going to have, you know, we were on track to have another spectacular year and even bigger year this year. And so, you know, the pandemic has thrown every company on the planet for a loop. And so, you know what? I've got the studios intact. As a matter of fact, I've just hired a couple of guys during the pandemic. I've hired a couple of guys. And, you know, we hope to be there in a strong way when we come out of it. But, yeah, there's challenges. I mean, the manufacturing guys right now, they're like trying to figure this out. How are we going to do what we used to do in light of the physical limitations to the manufacturing environment? And product development guys, our challenges are to continue to create compelling entertainment and to keep our ear to the ground and figure out what are the new markets. If anything, we're flexible. You know, we've been very, very incredibly agile in terms of responding to different scenarios over the course of the last 10 years, or we wouldn't have grown to be as big and successful as we have been. I think that our success has been hard fought and we're hardly ready to give up on it. So, yeah, a lot of focus on what needs to be done and how do we do it. And it's a big team. I mean, you know, I go to the Zoom happy hours. You know, we do Zoom happy hours. Product Development did one last Friday. The sales guys are probably doing one tonight. And it's kind of fun, you know, to sort of engage with the other areas of the company. Everybody's focusing on their piece of the business to help the entire, the whole, come out the other end, right? Be careful on those Zoom meetings because when they get posted, boy, you get all kinds of different analysis and people saying, oh, look at this, look at that. I mean, you must laugh when you see that. How do you know we're not planting it? Yeah, right, right. We have a lot of fun trolling people. I'm glad you have fun with that, too, because it should go both ways. All right, mental note, Easter egg on every Zoom. Okay, got it, got it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're having a good time. But that aside, I'm glad to hear you laugh about something like that. I don't know how you do it. We talked a little bit about it. I don't know how you and others in the pinball industry just deal with not even the negativity, but just the rumors and just the speculation. And just now that we're at home, we've got more time to think about things. And maybe it's even worse now. But when you see some of the things you see on social media and the forums, I just I'm sorry that you guys have to go through this. You know, I don't worry about it. Seriously, I think that when you let it get under your skin is when you have a problem. I honestly, I've always told my guys the key to our mental health and the key to our success is to, you know, keep our eye on our ball and not worry about what, I don't want to worry about what people are saying. I don't care what other people are doing. You know, I want to do what we're going to do. And that's been, you know, that's been the path to our success, and that's going to continue to be the path to our success. So I don't worry about it. I think it's look at athletes or performers or movie stars. They should never be on social media. That's my suggestion to any of them. Right. But think about the criticism that they go through, right? I mean, like the Monday morning quarterbacks, you know, having something to say about Tom Brady's performance the day before, right? And so look at an analysis of any one of those championship teams. I was just watching this ESPN thing on the 90s Bulls, right? The Last Dance? Yeah, it's pretty awesome, right? Oh, yeah. But I think the message there, when I look at that, you study the adversity that those people faced in their own environments, in their own ways, and I made parallels, right? The parallels were clear to me as I was watching this. The similarities of the adversities from the outside that are presented to my team, my organization, and how we are dealing with them as a team or how we have dealt with them as a team. And they show up different times from different places. And I think it speaks to your character, right? I mean, that's really what it's about. And so that's the way I try to lead. And I try to say to these guys, you know, we got to worry about what we're doing. And we got to believe in the thing that we're doing. We have to love what we're doing because if we do that, chances are someone else will too. It's interesting that you should say that because in my world, in radio, in a market where there are, say, 15 radio stations, if you're the number one radio station, you keep your eye on the prize. You keep doing what you're doing. You have a look at the others. You don't necessarily acknowledge the ones below you, but you keep doing what you're doing to stay number one. Whereas when you're not number one, when you're on the bottom, it's kind of attack mode against the number one. What can we do? It's interesting like that in pinball too. Stern by far is the clear leader in pinball, in marketing, in games sold, in all aspects. And that's why I'm curious here in 2020 when we come back, when we start manufacturing games again, when games are being sold, when we're out in the public again. Stern's biggest competition is going to be Stern. It's always been. Yeah, I think that I've said this a lot too, but we want to be all things pinball. We want to essentially, if there's a pinball space, we probably want to have a significant role. And that's the way we look at our business, the growth of our business, the way we envision. when the executive team sits down to plan, you'd be shocked at how far out things are. The conversations are, what does this company look like in five years? What does this company look like in 10 years? What does this company look like in 15 years? Those are the strategic basis for our plans. By the way, that was the strategic basis for our plan in 2009. and the evolution of that plan to date with the understanding, with the acknowledgement that there's bumps in the road, that stuff happens, that things come up, and that you're going to have to be strong enough to deal with them. You're going to have to figure it out. And if you don't, then you're not going to execute on your plan. So I think that we apply a lot of discipline, and we apply that discipline in every aspect of our organization, and not just in terms of the thought process and how we measure ourselves and how we manage our business and the decisions that we make. I think that in order to continue to have success, we have to continue to do those things because, in fact, those are the things that have gotten us the success. Everybody thinks it's like we got lucky with this game or something. It's like, yes, luck plays a role. Luck plays a role in everything you do in life, But you have to set yourself up to be in a place to leverage that luck, to expand on it. You've got to put yourself in a position to succeed. Again, to the athletes, they make the sacrifices they make in order to be successful. They eat the way they eat. They train the way they train. They study. They do the things they need to do. They practice. They work it. And as a business, we have to be the same. We have to work it. We have to work it every hour, every day. The vision of the work you're doing is different at different levels in the organization, right? So it's like, so the way I have to work it is a lot different than the way a young software engineer that just came into the company has to work it. His challenges, his day-to-day things that he has to do in order to work it, they're different than the ones that I do. And in the middle, right, my middle managers, the guys that run my groups, the guys that run my teams, the designers, they're working their piece of it. And they have to be as disciplined, as diligent, as focused on their piece of it, right? And when you get that happening throughout your organization, and that's happening in your manufacturing engine, and that's happening in your sales and marketing engine, and that's happening in your product development engine, and that's happening in your strategic planning and executive management engine, then you have success, I think. I mean, yeah, shit happens. I mean, pandemics happen, right? George, I can't thank you enough for spending this time here on Pinball Profile. You've had a few minutes now. Cabbage Patch, Star Wars figurines, or Rubik's Cube. Oh, man, the elegant...