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The Pinball Show Ep 162 BONUS: The Pinside Top 100?: A Closer Look At The Top 10 Pinball Machines Of All Time

Pinball Show Patreon Feed·podcast_episode·38m 47s·analyzed·Oct 11, 2024
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Deep analysis of Pinside Top 100's top 10 with heated debate over rankings and proposed replacements.

Summary

The Pinball Show hosts analyze the Pinside Top 100 list's top 10 ranked pinball machines, debating whether each deserves its ranking. They discuss Godzilla (ranked #1), Medieval Madness (#2), Jurassic Park (#3), Attack from Mars (#4), Iron Maiden (#5), Deadpool (#6), Monster Bash (#7), Elvira (#8), Twilight Zone (#9), and defend/challenge placements by proposing swaps like Jaws for Iron Maiden, Star Trek for Elvira, and Metallica for Elvira. The conversation balances objective game quality (rules, layout, art) against personal preference and theme.

Key Claims

  • Godzilla by Keith Elwin/Stern deserves the #1 ranking on the Pinside Top 100

    high confidence · Host and Dennis Creasel agree early; host states 'I do think Godzilla stands the argument of being the greatest game in existence' objectively, though personal preference may differ

  • Medieval Madness (Chicago Gaming Company Royal Edition remake) ranks close to Jurassic Park and should be in the top 10, but not necessarily at #2

    high confidence · Dennis: 'it's so iconic...quintessential example of the 90s'; Host: 'position-wise, 5 through 10 worthy' vs. current #2 spot

  • Attack from Mars objectively has better rules than Medieval Madness but is ranked #4; some prefer it over Medieval Madness

    high confidence · Host: 'I think it may objectively be a better game than Medieval Madness...I always rate Attack from Mars better'; both games could be argued as interchangeable top 5-10

  • Iron Maiden by Keith Elwin does not belong in the top 10 despite strong rules—it's top 15-20 at best

    high confidence · Host proposes removing Iron Maiden from top 10 and replacing with Jaws; justification: layout not as fun, theme weaker than other top-ranked games

  • Jaws (by George Gomez/Stern) deserves top 10 status over Iron Maiden based on immersion, theme integration, and fun factor

    medium confidence · Dennis: 'Jaws...far more immersive. I think the rules are a lot more interesting than Iron Maiden...a more fun package in almost every way'

  • Monster Bash is overrated at #7 on Pinside Top 100 and does not belong in top 10 or even top 20

    high confidence · Host: 'hell no get out of my top 10 list'; Dennis describes it as 'clunkiest,' 'clunk fest,' with poor creature shot feel and scoop dialing issues

  • Stern Star Trek (Steve Richie) has the best flow layout in pinball and belongs in top 10, replacing Elvira or Monster Bash

    high confidence · Dennis: 'the flowiest flow game to ever flow'; 'greatest of all time layouts' for shot combos and approachability across skill levels

Notable Quotes

  • “Godzilla stands the argument of being the greatest game in existence.”

    Host (Zach Sharpe implied) @ early in episode — Establishes agreement on #1 ranking; sets tone for analysis

  • “Medieval Madness...it's so iconic. Like, the toy is probably the most memorable toy in all of pinball.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Medieval Madness discussion — Acknowledges cultural significance while noting personal skepticism about #2 placement

  • “I think it may objectively be a better game than Medieval Madness...I always rate Attack from Mars better.”

    Host @ Attack from Mars section — Key claim that top 4 rankings may not reflect objective game quality

  • “Iron Maiden, like I know the – it's the premium. That's the top one. To me, there's barely any difference between the premium and the pro...I just don't think the layout is nearly as fun as the Jaws layout.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Iron Maiden debate — Justifies removal of Keith Elwin game from top 10 despite strong rules

  • “the flowiest flow game to ever flow...greatest of all time layouts”

    Dennis Creasel @ Star Trek discussion — Passionate defense of Star Trek's design philosophy and why it deserves top 10

  • “Monster Bash...That is the clunkiest. Don't you talk about my left ramp...That is such a... I mean, if I had gone first on this one...I would have said, fuck no. Absolutely not. A clunk fest.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Monster Bash section — Strong rejection of consensus ranking; highlights playability concerns

  • “Twilight Zone...It's not even a top 50 game. It's not. One of the worst games that Barry Williams ever...”

    Dennis Creasel @ Twilight Zone debate — Extremely provocative take on a historically acclaimed machine; questions nostalgia/toy-focused collecting

  • “Twilight Zone is for people that just want their game dripping with toys. They don't care how it plays.”

Entities

GodzillagameMedieval MadnessgameJurassic ParkgameAttack from MarsgameIron MaidengameDeadpoolgameMonster Bashgame

Signals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts challenge Pinside Top 100 credibility by identifying questionable placements (Iron Maiden #5, Monster Bash #7, Elvira #8, Twilight Zone #9); suggest algorithmic or community bias issues

    high · Host: 'are the top ten of the Pinside top 100 really top ten worthy?' Spoiler: 'not all of them'; Dennis removes ~4 games from top 10

  • ?

    community_signal: Hosts identify distinct collector archetypes with different value systems: toy-focused (Twilight Zone lovers), art-focused (J-Pop designers), and playability-focused

    medium · Dennis: 'Twilight Zone is for people that just want their game dripping with toys. They don't care how it plays'; 'a certain class of pinball collector that's all about toys'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Strong consensus that approachable rule sets (Deadpool 'shoot scoop, fight guy' pattern, Star Trek flow) are critical for modern top-tier games; overly complex rules viewed negatively

    high · Host on Deadpool: 'rule set that's enjoyable but also pretty easy to understand'; Dennis on Star Trek: 'most approachable games for any level of player'

  • ?

    product_concern: Chicago Gaming Company faced historical issues with red playfield colors appearing pink; colors still inconsistent. Twilight Zone noted for frequent breakdowns and poor part design

    medium · Host recalls CGC Attack from Mars red color issues: 'they weren't consistent in the play field, and they looked pink...pissed a lot of people off'; Dennis on Twilight Zone: 'breaks all the time...parts weren't well thought out'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Hosts emphasize importance of clean shot sequencing and flow (Stern Star Trek praised as pinnacle); criticize games with 'clunky' shot layout (Monster Bash, Twilight Zone)

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.116

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. Dennis, it's the exclusive content for our members. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. We're going to talk about Duke Claws and Sling Blades. We're going to talk about Jabberwock. Some people call it a Kaiser cat. I call it a schling cat. A Kaiser cat. That's what it should have been.
0:38
He's fucking her. My mama. Her name was Allison. Top ten. Is it real or is it just fantasy? Top ten question mark. Yeah. Pinside's top 100 question mark, I think is what we're going to call it. We're going to focus on the top ten. You had an idea and you said, are the top ten of the Pinside top 100 really top ten worthy? games spoiler no well not all of them some of them sure some of them sure and who better to give the analysis than the best damn analyst in the entire industry myself and dennis creasel so you want to go backwards from 10 or downwards from one uh let's start downwards from one because i think early on it might not be too too controversial let's jump in at the pin side If you guys want to follow, listener, the Pinside Top 100 at pinside.com slash pinball slash top dash 100. Number one on the Pinside Top 100 of all time, the greatest pinball machine right now in existence, based on the ratings of randos, is Keith Elwin and Stern Pinball's Godzilla.
1:46
I think that they've done well here. I think that we can both say that it undoubtedly belongs in the top ten list of pinball machines created, right? Yes. The pen site formula can't be all bad if it's Godzilla at number one. Okay. Now, let's jump into this a little bit more. And we don't have to be very particular because then that would have to mean that we know which one's coming and which one. But do you think it deserves number one? Do you think it deserves at least one to five? I think it's number one. So you do think it's number one? Yeah. Yes, I do. I don't have any argument that it's not number one. I'll say that. Now, that doesn't mean I might prefer other games more or have more fun on other games, depending on what I'm looking for. But just objectively speaking, I do think Godzilla stands the argument of being the greatest game in existence. Look, surprise, surprise.

Elvira's House of Horrors, despite deep rules and wizard modes, does not deserve top 10 status—top 25 at best

high confidence · Host: 'I'm not going to put it in my top 10...top 25 worthy, but just not top 10'; theme 'does not scream top status'

  • Metallica (Borg designer) deserves top 10 status over Elvira due to satisfying inline drops, great rules, and bash toy

    medium confidence · Host: 'rule set is so good with Metallica...really interesting layout...one of the best bash toys of all time'; ranked ~8th in personal ranking

  • Twilight Zone is not a top 10 or even top 50 game—overrated for its toys but weak on playability and reliability

    medium confidence · Dennis: 'Not even a top 50 game'; 'clunk fest'; 'breaks all the time'; 'you play on the right side of the play field' only

    • Dennis Creasel @ Twilight Zone conclusion — Meta-commentary on collector segments and value systems in pinball community

  • “Indiana Jones...the only wide body that I think really is worthy to even be considered in the top 10.”

    Host @ Indiana Jones discussion — Rare endorsement of wide-body era game for top 10, justifies by theme/depth despite mechanical limitations

  • “I'm not done trashing Twilight Zone yet...You slow your roll and hold your tongue. You can be wrong twice.”

    Dennis Creasel / Host exchange @ Twilight Zone/Addams Family debate — Playful but heated exchange revealing deep disagreement on classic machine rankings

    • Elvira's House of Horrors
    game
    Twilight Zonegame
    Indiana Jones: The Pinball Adventuregame
    Jawsgame
    Stern Star Trekgame
    Metallicagame
    Addams Familygame
    Keith Elwinperson
    Dennis Creaselperson
    George Gomezperson
    Lyman Sheetsperson
    Steve Richieperson
    Mark Ritchieperson
    Barry Williamsperson
    Pinside Top 100organization
    The Pinball Showorganization
    Chicago Gaming Companycompany
    Stern Pinballcompany

    high · Dennis on Star Trek: 'perfection of his flow layout structure'; on Monster Bash: 'clunkiest...worst shooting fans...creature shot doesn't feel great'

  • $

    market_signal: Jurassic Park noted as consistent strong seller since 2019 despite other games released in same window being forgotten

    high · Host: 'this thing has consistently sold since it's been released in 2019...one of the most consistent sellers...this one, this one is that damn good'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Hosts note that modern top-tier games (Godzilla, Deadpool, Jurassic Park) excel at translating IP theme into mechanical/artistic experience; theme alone insufficient for top 10 (Iron Maiden weakness)

    high · Host on Iron Maiden: 'theme really hurts for me...Godzilla is iconic...theme is so important...iron maiden just doesn't do that'; Deadpool 'wit and comedy...beauty...theme that translates very well'

  • ?

    historical_signal: Twilight Zone case study: high initial rating based on toy novelty and nostalgia; retrospective analysis suggests poor playability and reliability doom it for modern rankings

    medium · Dennis: 'It's only in retrospect where people...realize [it has issues]...It was treated as not a good game when it came out'; 'hubris project...breaks all the time'

  • ?

    community_signal: Walking Dead game hampered by poor initial code at release; community ratings stuck in early impression despite later improvements; pinside voters rarely re-rate

    medium · Host: 'Walking Dead...code wasn't very far along...Pinside people who rated it then had never gone back and re-rated it, and it just drags that game down'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Host notes that added toys/mechanics (Medieval Madness' catapult, maiden ramp diverter) can 'clunkify' layout vs. simpler designs like Attack from Mars

    medium · Host: 'I think arguably he tried to evolve that layout and he added more toys...which clunkifies a little bit more when you add mechanics like that'

  • ?

    designer_signal: Keith Elwin has three games in top 5 of Pinside Top 100 (Godzilla #1, Jurassic Park #3, Iron Maiden #5); suggests either consensus on design quality or possible overweight in voting

    high · Host: 'Three of your designs are in the top five. That's a red carpet special there, Keith Elwin'

    • 2:41
    So far, M-Ball Top 100 is absolutely correct. All right, that's it. You can turn it off now. That's right. Nicely done, Rando. Number two on the pin side, top 100. Number two, currently this one goes back and forth. Ratings are close, but right now number two is Medieval Madness at the time of this recording. In particular, if we're breaking down what model, because that changes as well, it's the remake by Chicago Gaming Company of the Royal Edition. Interestingly enough, it's so close, listener, that if you were to go to the regular Medieval Madness that came out in 97, that is rated actually under the highest of our number three. So we'll talk about that here in a minute. But does Medieval Madness belong, in your opinion, Dennis, in the top ten list of pinball machines? I would say yes. It's not in my personal top ten. I'm not interested in owning it. But yeah, it's so iconic. Like, the toy is probably the most memorable toy in all of pinball. And as much exhaustion as I feel we all probably have who have been in the hobby as long as we've been, hearing about, hey, did you know Tina Fey did a voice in it? But all that being said, it's a quintessential example of the 90s, and it does hold up. And this version really did it a lot of justice. Yeah. Sure, I wouldn't have it at number two, but I would have it in the top ten. I'm right with you. I couldn't have said it better. I do believe that it does belong in the top ten games, pinball machines in existence. Where it falls, I will say this. I do think that unlike some other games that we'll talk about in the top ten that I don't think deserve to be, this one still holds up for me with respect to mechanics, layout, and code. We know that this was done by Lyman Sheets, the late Lyman Sheets. It was kind of Lyman's prime in the 90s there.
    4:41
    And Medieval Madness holds up because it is royalty. It is pinball royalty in a way that later on, some people think that certain games are pinball royalty, and I might agree that they are, but they just fall outside of that top 10, certainly, whereas Medieval Madness I don't think does. I think it stays in the top 10. And position-wise, I believe 5 through 10 worthy. I have a hard time making an argument at number two, but if you're talking five to ten, that makes sense to me. I don't care enough to argue at four, maybe even three, but at two, a little high, but it certainly belongs in there. What about you position-wise? You said it barely makes the top ten? Yeah, I'd put it down around ten. Okay, all right. What about number three? Number three on the pin side, top 100, is another Keith Elwin game. It's Jurassic Park by Stern Pinball.
    5:38
    Yeah, I think it belongs there. I think this is the argument that I could make maybe for number two. Yeah, I mean, I could shuffle a little bit, but it being top five to me makes a lot of sense. It's kind of the game that I think, if you had any doubt when it came out, solidified the notion of the Elwin effect. Really good point, yeah. Yes. because this thing has consistently sold since it's been released in 2019. So for the last five years, it is a consistent seller. And we forgot about a lot of machines in the last five years that were produced. But this one, this one is that damn good. And some argue that they like it better than Godzilla. Yes, there are some that are. I know. I'm not one of them, but it's my second favorite game of his. I certainly like the theme more. Yeah. It's more of a touchstone for me. So I would say from an objective game standpoint, it is under Godzilla for me for rules and for layout. But the nostalgia and the theme, it absolutely is better than Godzilla. The art is not as good as Godzilla either. But ranking those, number three falls into Jurassic Park. It's the limited edition version. And so far, yeah, okay. So the people got it. They know what they're doing. Number four, same thing, number four in the Pennside Top 100 is Attack from Mars.
    7:05
    I would say the brother or sister to Medieval Madness, the eldest. But interestingly, the highest rated iteration is actually the old one. Absolutely. Originally coming out in 1995 and the highest ranked in the Pennside Top 100 is the original version, which I disagree with. I would as well, but the topper, I'm not a topper guy, but that's one of my most favorite toppers is that topper with Attack from Mars from CGC. People that don't like toppers are made topper believers from that one. Here's my theory on why the oldest one is actually a little higher. You might remember when CGC first did the runs of Attack from Mars, there were some issues with the reds, and they weren't consistent in the play field, and they looked pink. I haven't thought of that for a while. Oh, it pissed a lot of people off at the time, though. I remember that. And I wonder, you know how it is. People don't go back and, because I'm going to give you a spoiler right now. First, I agree that Attack from Mars belongs in the top ten. I would slide it further down than this. It would probably be closer to like ninth or so. For example, I want, and when we're going to get a little bit deeper, I would love to move up a game like Walking Dead, but Walking Dead isn't in the top 25 even. It's 47th. So we can't move it up. We can't because we're only going to do it from the top 25. I'm going to bring it up now, though, because that's a game where when it came out, the code wasn't very far along. And pin side people who rated it then had never gone back and re-rated it, and it just drags that game down. That first impression, oh, man. It hurt bad. And, yeah, it being one of the greatest games ever made, I think objectively, it still is caught in the crosshairs of that first impression. That limited code. And if you didn't do the modified audio package, you just got the generic Southerners, and that pissed people off too. They don't like the looks of it. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, Attack from Mars, for me, is absolutely solidified into the top ten currently, as of this recording, the top ten greatest pinball machines ever made. It just depends on the day whether I prefer this over Medieval Madness or not. I think it may objectively be a better game than Medieval Madness. It has better rules. So for me, I always rate Attack from Mars better. It's just the toy of the castle is more interesting, a more immersive toy than what appears to be a far simpler flying saucer. But I enjoy playing Attack from Mars far more than I do Medieval Madness. Attack from Mars is more of a shooter than Medieval Madness. Yeah, the shots are better designed. Well I think arguably he tried to evolve that layout and he added more toys like the catapult on Medieval Madness and the maiden shot up the ramps with a diverter which clunkifies a little bit more when you add mechanics like that So that's probably all it was. But for me, ranking-wise, I would put this – I'd put it right with Medieval Madness. And I'm – listener, for me, they're so close that I don't think I could shove a game in between them. So they're going to be butted up against one another. or even, I mean, yes, I mean, the Day Attack might be one ahead of Medieval, but I don't think I could ever separate them. And some people argue, some collectors even argue, that you shouldn't own both. And as an owner of both, I recently, the last couple of years, totally disagree with that. Because if you have a large enough collection, you have to own both of these. Both of these are so, they offer so much more experience, and they are fantastic. They're some of the greatest games ever made. So don't fall into that line of thoughts. I could see you argue like if you have five games then only own one at a time I would only say consider owning both if you have a very large collection space they are pretty samey if I had ten I could see owning both and I definitely would never tell people let's say you have room for 40 games I would still never tell them you should own both I just I think there's too many reasons why you wouldn't feel enough there are 39 other games that are going to give you a lot different experience. No, no. They're too good. They're too good not to recommend. They're top tens. If you had 40 games, I'd say own all top ten. If you can, let's move down. We've got to have one that we don't agree should be in the top ten, Dennis. Does it start here with another Keith Elwin game? I tease this in the regular episode because, yep, Iron Maiden is not staying in the top ten. Shouldn't be there. What? No way.
    11:31
    Wow. No way. That is a strong take. So this is by certain. Owen's first effort, it's decent. Decent? It's top 20, but it's not top 10.
    11:43
    Okay, so this is the part in this little segment that if we refute one of them being in the top 10, we have to replace it, and we can only replace it by something in the top 25.
    11:55
    So, Dennis, as you look among the pool of 25 games here, actually 15, additional games. Not that it would take the place as number 5, but what in the top 25 would you pull from the 11 to 25 to put into the top 10? Jaws.
    12:16
    I'll even give an L one for an L one. Jaws is up for it. It's not even a 1.0 code? It doesn't matter. It's far more immersive. I think the rules are a lot more interesting than Iron Maiden.
    12:29
    Wow. So on theme immersion, integration, clip, it's just – I think it's a more fun package in almost every way. I think the little fin going across the chute is cool. I think the little shark that pops up is cool. Iron Maiden, like I know the – it's the premium. That's the top one. To me, there's barely any difference between the premium and the pro. Not that it matters much. The scores are pretty similar on both of them. I think I prefer the pro. I've got more time on the pro. But it's just like Iron Maiden, Iron Maiden's strength is its rules, but all of Elwynn's games have pretty strong rules. So I just don't think the layout is nearly as fun as the Jaws layout. Iron Maiden is significantly better to me than Avengers Affinity Quest, but I would bump it just out of the top 10. I'd put it probably in the top 15, for sure top 20, but Iron Maiden does not belong in the top 10. I like the tank. The tricky part of this game or this segment is the replacement feature. Because saying something don't belong in the top 10 is one thing, but finding a proper replacement for it is a whole other. Well, and again, the way I'm viewing it is we're really just stuffing the top 10 and moving some stuff around out of the top 25 when we make shuffles. Where they actually fall within the top 10 is somewhat irrelevant because that becomes way too tedious to try and suss through. Because I like some of the deeper picks in the top 50 more so than the top 25. So do I. But we've hampered ourselves with our own rules. That's fine. So it gets tricky. It's a good challenge. So I got to be careful here because I do think, oh, man, the Iron Maiden theme really hurts for me to put it in a top 10. Because Godzilla is iconic. medieval madness and attack from mars have earned their stripes as a theme in pinball jurassic park absolutely and theme is so important especially if you're giving it one of the greatest of all time status iron maiden just doesn't do that but does the code the art the layout do those check the boxes so well that theme is secondary i think it does i do think iron maiden deserves to be in the top 10 of all time greatest list because of everything else minus the theme because this is a game that i actually dislike the music i don't as much now as mostly for entertainment effect here it's it's grown on me but it's such a good game it's it's one of keith's best shooting games maybe his second best shooting game of all time it's addictive the rules aren't too advanced and complex. They're attainable. Yeah, it definitely deserves in the top 10. Now, I put it towards the back end, but not at number 10 even. This is a 5 to 9-er for me. And, yeah, I think it deserves to be there. I think it's that strong, whereas I disagree with some of the following ones. So, I don't have to replace it, thankfully. I think you're still safe with me, Keith Elwin. Three of your designs are in the top five. That's a red carpet special there. As we move on to number six, six is a George Gomez, our first George Gomez-designed game to enter the lineup here. And Pennside Top 100 says number six of all time is Deadpool by Stern Pinball.
    16:03
    Man, a lot of Stern Pinballs here. There are. I was actually surprised this one was this high up, but I actually would have it in the top ten. You are a big fan of the Deadpool game. One of the things, you were talking a little bit with Iron Maiden about the approachability of the rule set. And that's one of the strongest. It's like they learned from Munsters. Like Munsters was too, whether it was true or not, like people didn't like how the rule set simplicity unveiled itself in Munsters. So with Deadpool, the idea of shoot the scoop, fight a guy, it worked really well coupled with that layout, with the sword ramp and all that and the snick shot. It's got a lot of interesting creative layout things going for it with a rule set that's enjoyable but also pretty easy to understand. So I really like a lot that it brings to the table. So I do think it should be in this list. This is probably around where it's at. Okay. It is so well-rounded. Boy, it's close for me. This one is really, really close for me. Oof.
    17:06
    Oof. I almost replaced it. But I think because it is one of my go-tos on the most well-rounded game in existence, I almost replaced it with an equally well-rounded game down in the list, number 21 to be exact. But I won't do that yet. I'm going to accept Deadpool as a top 10 game of all time because it checks every box, every single damn box. Now, I can honestly tell you Deadpool is not my favorite game. I own it because it is a lovely game that I like so much, but it wouldn't be in my personal top 10. Would it make my personal top 20? Maybe not, but objectively, as a top 10 pin, it deserves to be there. It's got the art. It's got the layout. It's got features that are unique and different than what we see in other pinball machines. It has wit and comedy. It has beauty. and it has a theme that I think translates very well to the art of pinball in the Marvel, especially that Marvel character of Deadpool, the off-kilter, quirky, breaking the fourth wall. Deadpool, I'm good. I've got to have a George Gomez in here. So far, you are the pin-side top 10. I am the rando here. Okay, that's fine. Well, I'll tell you what. I'll jump out in front on this one. number seven on the pin side top 100 is one that i say hell no get out of my top 10 list objectively and that is another george gomez game it's monster bash i know the the buck stops here bally williams no no so many more deserve it bally williams game over monster bash and this one falling in the top 10 remember i i remember over the last couple years pepperidge farm remembers the damn monster bash would sit in that top four right there might It'd be a stern that breaches that top four for a little bit. It was always under Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness, but it was always right there with them. And people even hold it to the standard of, oh, those are the quintessential three Bally Williams nine bullshit. Oh, but it's Lyman. Bullshit.
    19:13
    Is it a good code? It is great code. You know what else it is? Fucking boring code. This is what spellathons came up Like hit this four times to start that mode where you hit this even more And then if you hit it enough you get the instrument And if you get the instruments, you hit it more. No! It's boring! I don't understand Monster... Now, Zach, do you own a Monster Crash? I mean, I do, because I'm that type of collector that wants all the CGC pretties. But no, it's not that... There's so many other games that are so much better. But it's classic. It's... eh, okay. It's just not classic enough. What are you bringing in for it? That's tough.
    19:52
    To match yours for now, I'll pull Joel's in because that deserves to be in the top ten list. Absolutely. So there's no argument there. You gave good enough reasons why. Joel's all day, every damn day over Monster Bash. And that I would recommend for most every person except maybe for the family that only wants to own one pinball machine. I might recommend Monster Bash over Jaws, but we'll throw Jaws in there. What about you? What do you think about Monster Bash? Oh, absolutely not. Okay. That game doesn't deserve to be in the top 20. That's a big ouch. No. Well, I mean, I guess it is if you love Monster Bash. It's a great layout.
    20:33
    On paper, it does. That is the clunkiest. Don't you talk about my left ramp. That's one of my favorite left ramps in existence. That is such a... I mean, if I had gone first on this one and you would have said, What about Monster Bash being in the top ten? I would have said, fuck no. Absolutely not. A clunk fest. A fan clunk fest. Amazing. One of the worst shooting fans I have ever played. How do you clunk a fan? I don't know, but the creature shot doesn't feel great. The left ramp, there's all those up the middle center shots. Good luck having your scoop dialed in so it doesn't straight down the middle of you all the time. The whole shot back into the wolfman. But all of it feels worse than Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness. And I can't help but compare it, even though it's a different designer. And as you noted, the rules are just as simplistic. The only thing I like over it, over those other games, is it's a more fun theme with them being in a rock band. That's it. I'll put money in it. I'll play it on location. But I can't even top 20 yet. I'm going to go ahead and pull in Stern Star Trek. I knew you would. It had to happen. the flowiest flow game to ever flow it'll wash that bad clunk taste out of your mouth uh for days so so yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna go ahead and say star trek can go ahead and move up and get steve richie on the board here what did what what makes you say star trek you talk about the flow the design to me it's steve richie's best flow layout stern star trek greatest of all time layouts and so for that for the idea of comboing shots into other shots and being able to like if you don't like to trap up, if you want to shoot on the fly all the time, and most high-level players don't, but there's one or two that kind of do that sort of thing. But if that's your style, like you like to get in the zone and just start hitting those shots, and you don't want to trap, and you just want to keep going, and as long as you're hitting your shots, you're rewarded with the ability to continue to do it. No game does it better than Star Trek, in my opinion. It's one of the most approachable games for any level of player. The warp ramp is just fun. Years ago, you had a straight down the middle. you know it's like it's it's not the most valuable shot out there but when you just start going over and over it's just you just you just you're you feel it you're in the groove it's just it was the it was the perfection of of his flow layout structure and i just um because of that every time can it be a long player yes does it have particular flaws yes but it's a super deep code set especially for the era you'll never see the end of it yeah and it's just that it's just It feels so... You know, I joke with the Nordman voice about the power of the plastic ramps. Like, Stern Pro is all plastic ramp, and it feels so fast for it.
    23:15
    That's my first new in-box game, and I still own it. It's still great. I own one as well. I really, really like Star Trek. And I still, to this day, when I get my bonus multipliers out of the top lanes over the pop bumpers, I still go... That's the one sound that you can hear across any arcade. No, it cuts through anything. The only thing louder than TNA is that transporter sound. It cuts through all sound. It so does. Every time I'm at a show, I'm like, there's Star Trek. And the call-outs. I mean, you've got Carl Urban doing the call-outs, but you also have the computer voice, Gene Roddenberry's wife. Yeah, they have the audio, the actual computer audio. It's a great game. Oh, it's very immersive. And that's like the one LE that Stern just really, really did. Oh, that's the one where everyone's like, this is how all LEs should have been. And that vengeance crashing into the play field when you defeat it.
    24:06
    It's quite the spectacle. So much, listener, that I'm agreeing with, Dennis. I'm going to pull Star Trek into the top ten as well. And I'm going to replace it with the number eight game on the Pinside Top 100. Which is, I think a lot of people have an issue with this, me pulling this. It's Stern Pinball's Elvira's House of Horrors. Action!
    24:26
    Zach, what are you doing? I'm sorry, Norton. No, this is my greatest creation. It's great. And then, like, 80% of my game was changed after I left helping them. I like the original ramp idea myself, but... It was better. It may be one of the most... It was too hard. They don't even know how to build it. It, uh... The layout's pretty basic. I like that it's... But there's a house. Yeah, it's just... It's really... And it's so deep. It's... It's lime and greatness again. It has one of the best wizard modes of all time. Am I talking myself into it again? No, I'm not. because it's a long shooter. You know, it just doesn't. It's Elvira. The theme just does not scream top status to me. That's got instant classic written all over it. No, I just don't. And the artwork's okay, but it just never made it in top 10. I think it's very much top 25 worthy, but just not top 10 for me. And I'll replace it with Star Trek. Okay. I do. Actually, I agree with you. Elvira's just not a top 10 game. It's cool. There's a lot of stuff going for it. I can get behind it staying in the top 25 as well, but no, not top 10. In this instance, I think I'm going to go ahead and, well, it's not a personal top 10 of mine. Just sort of objectively speaking, I'm going to pull Metallica up. So I've always actually preferred ACDC, but ACDC I cannot choose because it's actually ranked 27th. So I can't do it. I've actually preferred it more. But Metallica, oh, that rule set is so good with Metallica. And it's got a really interesting layout in terms of you've got the inline drops. They are really satisfying. It is the premium that is the ranking that gets it currently in 15th place. One of the best bash toys of all time. Yeah, it's got the electric chair is cool to do. And the premium does have that, well, it's gimmicky, the fun little hammer slamming the ball down. It's cool. It's a cool idea. Yeah, Dirty Donnie art package works really well for the way they went with the theme. It's really weird and different. Yeah, it's mostly carried by the rules, but it shoots well, and Borg definitely should have a game in this list. Yeah, it's a lot of people's favorite Stern Pen Moment theme. I'll almost put it kind of like around eighth would be where I would rank it, too. So, yeah, I'm going to straight up switch out of Ira for Metallica. Wow, all right. I feel like throwing more things out as we jump into the number nine. If you don't mind, Dennis, I'm going to jump here and say Twilight Zone by Ballet93 is like one of the most quintessential, iconic, nostalgic. Hell, you're a pinball wizard. Have you seen the Twilight Zone game? Like everything in the kitchen sink and all that, I would argue that, well, you threw the wrong things in the kitchen sink. They don't make sense somewhat. But it's deep. It's fun. It's beautiful. I like the game of Twilight Zone. But it's not top ten for me. if we did most iconic game sure but for me no twilight zone wouldn't make it it would hover towards the bottom of the top 25 for me it might even be outside of that threshold the tough part for me is replacing it because we're getting slim pickings in the top 25 including like big lebowski now now elton john i've already replaced with star trek which is if it wasn't for the theme Elton John may be a better game, but I can't do it. Foo Fighters, no. Metallica is a great argument. That's a really, really good argument. I should replace it with Metallica. But I'm no lumberjack.
    28:00
    Chopping wood is tough. It is a chopper. People who love to chop love those rules. I'm going to go. This is maybe a little bit controversial.
    28:12
    I'm going to pull up out of the top 25 into the top 10 list. something that may not check the same boxes as the other things in the top ten list, but nonetheless I think belongs there. And if we're talking how iconic Twilight Zone and all of this is, I think even more for me is something like that, but with even a better theme, which is Mark Ritchie's Indiana Jones, the pinball adventure. I wondered if you would pull this into the ten. I didn't want to put a wide body. It's one of your highest straight down the middle rated games. And that's just, again, it's because of its theme, its design, its lighting, its mode variety, its video modes that are fun, its depth for its age. It is just everything It doesn do one thing beyond theme that may be the best but it does everything else just so so well It is like that Star Trek where it checks so many boxes and it feels good for a wide body. It's challenging enough. It has so many toys in it that make it make up for the inferior shooting playability of a wide body game. So it's the only wide body that I think really is worthy to even be considered in the top 10. But again, I would say this is absolutely number 10 for me.
    29:36
    This one's hard for me to even put in the top 10. But based on everything else that's available, by default, that's where it's got to be for me. Okay. Well, I agree with you. Well, in part. I'm not going to move up Indiana Jones. Twilight Zone has to go. You're very kind to Twilight Zone. That's not even a top 50 game.
    29:58
    It's not. One of the worst games that Barry Williams ever... Why do you hate Pat Lawler? You don't like any of his games. No, because I'm moving Adam's family up. Oh, well, okay. All right. So you slow your roll and hold your tongue. You can be wrong twice. That's fine. I'm not done trashing Twilight Zone yet. All right? Thing is a clunk fest. Theme is questionable, but it's honestly its strongest element. If you've ever gotten in the stupid jack-in-the-box mode, you will want to probably blow the machine apart. I actually was playing on location in a pub. That mode was going, and the music was so embarrassing to me, I deliberately drained. So you replaced it with Twilight Zone Lite? So, no, I'm not, it's not even done yet. Okay. This was a hubris project. It breaks all the time. the parts weren't well thought out. Everyone talks about all the cool things that happen. All you do is play on the right side of the play field. It's just not a good game. And it was treated as not a good game when it came out. It's only in retrospect where people, a certain class of people, because you know there are different types of pinball collectors. There's a certain class of pinball collector that's all about toys, and that's where Twilight Zone lives, just like how we talked about in the regular episode, about J-Pop being all about art, and people who love his stuff generally just really love that he had good art packages. Twilight Zone is for people that just want their game dripping with toys. They don't care how it plays. It doesn't have a lot of toys either.
    31:28
    So, Adam's Family. Is it a game I am interested in owning? No. But I would put it towards the bottom of the top ten, because it is far more iconic. It is what earned Pat Lawler the right to mess up so badly with Twilight Zone. It has some of the greatest call-outs to ever exist in pinball. True.
    31:48
    Starting that multi-ball, that main multi-ball, still is one of my most favorite ones to start. It's still got some clunk to it. Lawler's always been more of a stop-and-go style designer. But I think that the theme integration with the way the call – and it relies a lot on the call-outs, the modes, the layout, all that stuff. It feels like the movie is one of the best theme integrations that ever happened in the 90s, probably right up there with Star Trek The Next Generation. But I think it plays better than Star Trek The Next Generation. It's an overrated game because everyone remembers it, and they all try and buy it. So it sells for way more than it should, but it is worthy of being in the top ten. And maybe best magnet feature in a pinball machine? Excellent magnet.
    32:29
    People turn them off because they don't like the magnets, and they get mad. The magnets mess it all up. But you know what? That's not what this was about. This was about experiencing the world of Adam's family, and it tied in really well with the notion of the electric chair to have the magnetism. Superior layout. It was just, and like the train whistles and the thing hand coming up and grabbing the ball. Yeah, it's one of my favorite skill shots. When I see it on location, I play it. So it's not a game I've ever looked at buying, but you know what? Definitely should be a hair and definitely Twilight Zone shouldn't. You made such a good argument. That may have deserved. I like like every other Lawler better than Twilight Zone. I might even let you say Roadshow is better. And I hate Roadshow. Willy Wonka is a better game. But reminder that these are just the opinions of Dennis, and you should buy what you like.
    33:17
    Yeah, the Addams Family is such a good game. I do own it. It's not my go-to, but I could see it even over Indiana Jones because it plays better. It's showtime! Oh, God, it's so good. It's so good. And then what about number 10, Florida the Rings, Stern Pinball?
    33:42
    It's an earlier Stern. It is. You know, there's so many other games. Like, I've got stuff that flows better than Lord of the Rings. You know, it's got some... It's clunky. It's a bad layout, but it's got some clunk. Oh, but the theme integration. I'm going to keep it. It'd probably be like... You better keep it. Absolutely, you better keep it. I have Attack and Medieval at 9 and 10, so I'd probably move it up to 8 or so versus being 10th, but it'd still be in the bottom of the 10, not the top. But it won't be top five. But I do think it deserves to be in the top 10. The Toa. Again, call-outs for me are a big deal for theme integration. So it feels like Lord of the Rings.
    34:28
    Even if you get annoyed doing that stupid golem mode. Two-ball golem mode, damn it. Mistakes were made. Get me trapped in there like the demo dogs in Stranger Things. Hey, you could throw this out of the top ten and bring up Stranger Things. It's tied with Star Trek at 21st. When it comes to Lord of the Rings, I'm actually going to disagree with you a bit. Okay.
    34:50
    Does it belong in the top ten? Yes. But does it belong outside of the top five? No. It belongs absolutely in the top five pinball machines of all time. Because what it does well, it does even better than what Keith Elwin does particularly well. and what I mean by that is Keith Elwin's got the layouts I'll give the man that but what this has in moments and theme integration, Lord of the Rings Keith Elwin, his supremacy in design even pales to the theme integration and the wonder of the theme and the toys and everything that Lord of the Rings final wizard mode of Valinor that you can never get to versus even the mini wizard mode that is better than 98% and of all other wizard modes in general in pinball. And when it comes to me and my experience and why I love pinball, it's not for points. It is for layouts generally, but it is for the experience of what I get with this game. At the end of the day, this is a game. What do I want with the form of pinball as a game? I want the experience, the physical experience of something. And nothing is more physically satisfying than the theme integration. and I'm feeling like I'm in a physical world. It's basically a three-dimensional board game when I feel like I'm in Mordor and I'm trying to hit, and people have heard me say this over and over, and I'll say it in interviews, I'll say it until I'm blue in the face, but it's the best representation of film to game, even more so than video games are, because I'm physically there, and I'm physically changing elements so that I can defeat the opposition. It's wonderful. It's everything. It is clunky, and it has a lot wrong with it, but the rules are near perfection. Near perfection. It's Lord of the Rings' top five, and I think it's going to be really hard for anything in the future even to bump it out because of how well it does every theme and everything else right. So let's see. On recap, we both agreed to keep Godzilla, Medieval Madness, Stern Jurassic Park, Attack from Mars, Deadpool, and Lord of the Rings in the top ten. I think the one game we were split on was Iron Maiden. Correct. You kept it. I did not. And so we both agreed that Monster Bash, Elvira's House of Horrors, and Twilight Zone should leave the top ten. We both agreed that Jaws should be moved up. We both agreed that Star Trek should be moved up. I moved up Metallica, and then you moved up Indiana Jones the Pinball Adventure, and I moved up Addams Family. Correct. Okay. That was a fun exercise. I think objectively using those constraints, I think we did really well. What interests me now, maybe in a future episode, if people like this, email us at thepinballshow at gmail.com. What if, Dennis, we took the games that we have removed, and instead of replacing them with the top 25, we open it up to the top 100? Would we keep some of the same games, or would we change those out even? I mean, I know there are different things I would have done if I had had a larger list in play. Would you even keep two? I don't know if I would. I mean, I could probably. No, I wouldn't, for sure.
    38:10
    Wow. Okay. I mean, well, out of the top two, I might keep two, but at least two of the things I brought up would not have been brought up if I had more choices. That's what I'll say. That was a lot of fun. Now you can really push stop. Thanks for the support, everybody. Push stop or turn the tape over now. Actually, just put it in reverse. See if any of this makes sense as you trip balls.
    38:34
    Just talk about it. Oh, Twin Peaks. Why didn't it get a pinball? That's the most overrated director of all time.