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Episode 10 - Die on this Hill: Popeye Saves the Earth

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·44m 31s·analyzed·Dec 25, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Wedgehead podcast defends Popeye Saves the Earth against community hate.

Summary

Alan from Wedgehead Pinball Podcast hosts Daniel Radin and Ty Ueda from Pop Spinball Boston in a "Die on this Hill" segment defending the 1994 Bally Williams Super Pin Popeye Saves the Earth. The hosts counter negative community reviews by highlighting the game's visual appeal, unique upper playfield maze mechanic, thematic cohesion, and appeal to casual players, while acknowledging legitimate criticisms about visibility, wide-body layout constraints, and unbalanced scoring typical of 1990s Bally Williams design.

Key Claims

  • Popeye Saves the Earth ranks 247th out of 286 eligible games on Pinside's Top Solid State list

    high confidence · Alan cites current Pinside rankings during review discussion

  • Daniel Radin redesigned the center lock mechanism in Popeye to make it more mechanically consistent

    high confidence · Daniel mentions reaching out to manufacturers about lock trough redesign, received little community interest even in Popeye Club group

  • The original game concept before Pemberton converted it to Gilligan's Island was called 'The Brain' designed by Dan Lang Wall, who died while designing the playfield

    high confidence · Ty discusses Gilligan's Island's history; Lang Wall previously designed Heavy Metal Meltdown

  • Popeye has a maze-based upper playfield mode called 'Finding Sweet Pea' with three possible ramp exits

    high confidence · Detailed discussion of Sweet Pea mode mechanics; only one YouTube video exists of someone reaching wizard mode

  • When Pop Spinball first opened with Popeye in the lineup, casual players would immediately gravitate to it over A-list titles like Attack from Mars, Haunted House, and The Shadow

    high confidence · Ty describes consistent player behavior of walking in and choosing Popeye based on visual appeal

  • George Gomez discussed NBA Fast Break's poor initial market reception despite innovative design, but the game now earns extremely well at Wedgehead

    medium confidence · Alan references Gomez interview; Alan notes the game currently performs well at his venue

  • Pat Lawlor stated that Twilight Zone was realized to be a failure while on test, but too late to prevent production

    medium confidence · Daniel paraphrases Lawlor quote about manufacturing mistakes and production constraints

  • Python Angelo (designer) wrote an essay about Popeye's lore/story, unusual for a pinball machine designer

    medium confidence · Daniel mentions Angelo's written lore essay as distinctive feature; specific essay not cited

Notable Quotes

  • “when people come in and they're like 'they're still making pinball machines?' that means they didn't know and now they do”

    Ty Ueda @ ~13:00 — Core thesis: casual players discover pinball exists through location play, independent of hype cycles

  • “if you want to play the game the boring way sure that game's gonna suck you know”

    Daniel Radin @ ~22:30 — Player choice and intentionality determine game enjoyment; Popeye designed for varied play styles

  • “I like going to contemporary art museums because you walk in and you have no idea what you're going to see...it's the same reason people travel to the Pinball Hall of Fame to play Pinball Circus”

    Ty Ueda @ ~19:00 — Framing niche/unusual games as artistic experiences rather than commercial products

  • “I bought Popeye because I was like I like an underdog. Not gonna lie. If someone's shitting on a game I want to be like is there any merit to that or are they just saying it because that's the party line since 1994”

    Daniel Radin @ ~12:00 — Operator motivation: contrarian curiosity drives acquisition and restoration decisions

  • “make a playfield different, and then someone makes it different. They're like no that's too different, make it less different”

    Alan @ ~42:00 — Industry paradox: designers pressured to innovate but punished for actual innovation

  • “by the time we realized we fucked up on Twilight Zone it was too late, you know it was on test”

    Daniel (paraphrasing Pat Lawlor) @ ~42:30 — Manufacturing constraints override post-hoc design regret; production slots cannot be left empty

  • “I think there's just like a mystique, obviously. I like that it's an underdog. I like that there's a freaking essay that Python Angelo, one of the designers, wrote about the lore of the game”

    Daniel Radin @ ~15:00 — Designer intentionality and lore-building as undervalued game attributes

Entities

AlanpersonDaniel RadinpersonTy UedapersonZoe VrabelpersonPython AngelopersonBowen KerinspersonPat LawlorpersonGeorge GomezpersonDan Lang Wallperson

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Python Angelo wrote thematic essay about Popeye's lore/story; unusual for pinball designer to extend narrative beyond mechanical design into written lore

    medium · Daniel notes Angelo essay as distinctive; characterizes as unusual that 'last time' designer wrote short story about pinball machine

  • ?

    community_signal: Pop Spinball positioning Bowen Kerins to create educational Popeye tutorial; explicit goal to showcase Sweet Pea mode and wizard mode to generate community appreciation

    medium · Daniel describes reaching out to Bowen to create tutorial; Bowen confident he can 'get you the wizard mode'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Popeye Saves the Earth heavily disliked by online Pinside community (ranks 247/286) but attracts immediate casual player interest at location venues; stark disconnect between hardcore/collector opinion and location/operator/casual player experience

    high · Ty describes consistent behavior of walk-in players immediately choosing Popeye over A-list titles; Daniel notes even Popeye Club group showed minimal interest in his lock mechanism improvements

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Optimal strategy on Popeye involves multiball exploitation (shooting right ramp repeatedly for 3x jackpot stacking) rather than exploratory playfield tour; tension between efficiency/scoring and game design intent

    medium · Ty criticizes efficient play as 'boring way'; contrasts with designer intent of varied shot exploration; Zoe plays for immediate multiball access

  • ?

    design_innovation: Industry pressure to create innovative/different games countered by market punishment when designers actually deviate from conventions; George Gomez NBA Fast Break case: innovative layout initially failed but now succeeds

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.134

0:00
Real name? Of course I did. If you believe in something, you sign your name to it. Alright, I'm gonna tell you right now. I ain't crazy.
0:07
This is the ground you'll die on. Are you sure? Oh my god, are you serious? Son, people can see you. I don't tell you what to do with your money. Don't fucking tell me what to do with mine, okay? I'm not as dumb as you think I am. I will defend myself.
0:27
He means it, sweetheart. Well, that's because you're an idiot. I will fight and win because I am the most intelligent. You sure about that? You sure about that? I got something I want to say. Well, you motherfuckers think you know who Teddy Powers is. Well, I'm here today to tell you all you don't know shit. Oh, I give up. You're going to get yourself killed, and this time I won't be able to save you. I make you laugh. I'm a clown. I amuse you. I'm here to fucking amuse you. Come on. Don't bullshit me. Go ahead and go, but I'm not going to stop yelling because then that'll mean I lost the fight. So please leave a key under the mat. I love you all very much. Peace out.
1:08
Serenity now! Serenity now! What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. Okay, a simple wrong would have done just fine, but this makes no sense.
1:40

  • The 1994 Robin Williams Popeye film directed by Robert Altman features music entirely by Harry Nilsson

    medium confidence · Discussion digresses into film history; Alan describes difficulty understanding dialogue

  • There is only one fully working Popeye machine in the Portland, Oregon area, located at Next Level arcade in Hillsborough

    medium confidence · Alan mentions difficulty accessing it due to work schedule conflicts and distance (1 hour drive)

    • “the lock shot is notoriously hard. It's right in the center, in the middle of the playfield...when I play it, I'm like I want to shoot around the whole playfield...not just exploiting it for the best points”

    Ty Ueda @ ~21:00 — Distinction between grinding/min-maxing vs. exploratory play; game design accommodates both

  • “Expand your imagination a little buddy. Get creative.”

    Ty Ueda (responding to 'I can't imagine any adult owning this game') @ ~37:00 — Push back against gatekeeping; pinball ownership defended as legitimate adult hobby

  • “if you go up to the plate you're going to strike out sometimes you know that's just the nature of the game”

    Daniel Radin @ ~43:30 — Manufacturing philosophy: risk-taking is inherent; some failures inevitable in production pipeline

    • Robert Altmanperson
    Harry Nilssonperson
    Wedgehead Pinball Podcastorganization
    Pop Spinballorganization
    Popeye Saves the Earthgame
    Gilligan's Islandgame
    NBA Fast Breakgame
    Twilight Zonegame
    Pinball Hall of Fameorganization
    Next Level Arcadeorganization
    Pembertonperson

    medium · Alan articulates tension: 'everyone tells you make something different...someone makes it different...no that's too different'; Gomez quote paraphrased about market failure

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Python Angelo employed distinctive visual top-down skewed perspective art style and intentionally used natural wood grain as playfield design element; thematic mashup of licensed Popeye IP with environmental/animal-saving narrative

    high · Discussion of boat-themed playfield utilizing physical wood; essay written by Angelo about game lore; debate over whether polarizing art style is intentional design choice

  • ?

    historical_signal: 1990s Bally Williams design philosophy did not account for tournament play or balanced scoring; unbalanced multiball progression (30M per jackpot increase) typical of era

    medium · Daniel notes historical context: 'back in the day when like they weren't coding for pinball tournaments'; acknowledges Popeye's unbalanced multiball as typical, not unique

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Pinball manufacturers historically unable to halt production once game enters manufacturing pipeline, even when design flaws recognized during test phase; production slots cannot remain empty

    medium · Daniel paraphrases Pat Lawlor's Twilight Zone anecdote; philosophy expressed as 'you go up to the plate you're going to strike out sometimes'

  • $

    market_signal: Boutique location operators (Pop Spinball) finding commercial success with games dismissed by online community (Popeye); location revenue performance contradicts Pinside rankings

    high · Ty states goal is to route games to casual players and location venues, not hardcore online community; coin boxes full at Pop Spinball with Popeye in rotation

  • ?

    community_signal: Daniel Radin's contrarian acquisition philosophy: deliberately purchases games community dismisses to restore and evaluate merit; redesigned Popeye lock mechanism despite knowing modification has no commercial market

    high · Daniel states 'if someone's shitting on a game I want to be like is there any merit'; reached out to manufacturers about lock redesign knowing 'one person' in Popeye Club showed interest

  • ?

    product_concern: Popeye criticized for wide-body format creating inherent playfield visibility problems, upper playfield obstruction of lower playfield shots, unbalanced multiball scoring, and mechanical lock mechanism flaws

    high · Multiple negative reviews cited; Daniel confirms lock mechanism is 'inherently flawed'; acknowledged as typical for 1990s Bally Williams design philosophy

  • ?

    venue_signal: Wedgehead deliberately programs difficult/controversial games (like Popeye) alongside crowd-pleasers to 'torture new players' and introduce diversity; torture-as-education philosophy

    medium · Alan states Popeye currently at Silhouette Lounge 'just so I can torture new players with it'; characterizes as deliberate programming choice

    • Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. My name is Alan, one-half owner of the Portland Pinball Bar Wedgehead, and we're here doing a second edition episode of a new segment that we're doing. We call this I'm Going to Die on this Hill, And we're joined today by Daniel Radin and Ty Ueda from Pop Spinball in Boston. Say hello, gentlemen. Hello. Oh, that was super insane. That was sexy. Yeah, I like that. All right. So we are going to talk today about a game that you both unironically really love. It's all over your social media. You've made merch that says, I'd rather be playing Popeye Saves the Earth at Pop Spinball. I think it's wordier and stupid. But I think what's funny is I don't think that sticker says pinball at all. I think it says, yeah, it says, I'd rather be playing the 1994 Bally Williams Super Pin TM Popeye Save Zero. That pops pinball. Which there it is. Yeah. Just wordy, wordy beyond necessity is the brand. Yeah. So for the first episode of this series, we had Zoe Vrabel, who was a longtime Wedgehead patron and friend. and now she moved to Boston so she sees y'all a lot and the whole segment started because she unironically loves Gilligan's Island and Gilligan's Island is famously a pin that not a lot of people like or have a very high tolerance for let's say and I wanted to get her on and I wanted her to talk about why it's such a good game and when in the middle of that discussion she mentioned you guys and then she goes oh well you gotta talk to the Pops guys because they love Popeye and I don't fucking get it.
    3:25
    So I want to cede the floor to both of you, or one at a time, and I want you guys to talk about why Popeyes, why you like it, how you deal with the hate. Sell it to us. Why everyone should play Popeye, why everyone's wrong about Popeye. I'm going to start by saying I can't wait to listen to the Gilligan's Island one because I think that game rules too. I also think it would be better if it was its original theme, but that's... What was the original theme? It was originally The Brain, and it was Dan Lang Wall's last game, and he died while he was designing the playfield, and Pemberton bought it and then made it Gilligan's Island, which is fucking hilarious. But he was the guy that did Heavy Metal Meltdown. So if he had a game called The Brain, it was going to be so sick. All right, but let's dive in on Popeye. Okay, so I think the preface for Popeye is already used as operators. is or one of our goals is to take a game that almost nobody has played a fully working copy of and make it play as perfect as it was when it came out or better right that is our goal right and that applies to Popeye and many of the games we route in terms of Popeye I bought it from a guy in Long Island pulled out of his basement he got it as like a wedding gift from his wife 10 years prior so what yeah so it was like home use only maybe who gives papa his wedding gift oh man what you know what they're still married wow wow good for them wow and i remember as i was hefting this game is so fucking heavy i mean dude super pins are fucking heavy and as i was uh about to start dismantling and i was you know hemming and hawing over the price with the guide and as we were talking i heard from downstairs bong it had reset in the middle of uh you know a ball nice he goes oh i think that's the game telling you that uh you should pay full price that is ridiculous and i go actually i think that's the game telling you that oh man yep price going down i mean oh boy i mean i guess the the first thing we got to disassemble is like what where does the hate for this game come from because i feel like oh i'm gonna let you guys know do i have a list of bad reviews that i'm gonna read to you and have you react to but i want you to first give me your best pitch on when people come into pops which again i mean you named your your pinball spot after pop i assume right no no no well that's the rumor i've been saying i've been telling everyone that i like that rumor but it isn't it is unfortunately inaccurate no we just have like a million bad names and then i think one night daniel just texted me and he was like pops i just got really high i told you not to smoke okay i wasn't gonna say that weed is legal here what in the hell is going on here yeah i got really high and i just goes like pops and then i and then i basically fell asleep and then i was like holy shit that's it yeah okay so i mean there's a bunch of different And I feel like this story can say everything. It's the good pitch in and of itself is that when we first opened, it was one of the games that we had. And I would say nine times out of ten, if a casual person would walk into Pops, and let's say they're not a pinball person, they would walk in, they would look at the lineup, and it was like, we had like, AFM, Haunted House, like, Stars.
    6:54
    Oh, sorry, Attack from Mars. and and there were a couple like the shadow and like a lot of like a-list titles people would look around the room and they would go oh popeye and immediately walk to it no shit really this is like nor like tom dick and harry anyone walks in yeah they would say popeye and just and just go over and play it i i don't know i don't know the you know i don't know exactly the reason behind that but there is there's a visual appeal to the game that that draws you into me i think they're probably fondly remembering the robin williams altman which is fantastic i've watched that recent i watched that recently and it's like that's a chore you said you said it was haunting oh it was like it is it's an hour and 45 minutes of not being able to understand any any spoken word uh the weirdest director ever chosen to do a movie like that like and uh and harry nilsson did all the music who directed it it's robert altman oh really what yeah isn't that crazy i love that and harry nelson did the uh all the music that's so funny i mean it has some great songs yeah carly ray jepsen sampled one of those songs you know that's yeah i love it because it feels like being on psychedelics when i watch it it feels everything's off oh man everything in it is off i don't want to dive too far into that because i could i went on i got i also got pretty stoned and went down like a wikipedia rabbit hole of like researching that movie but okay so what's your pitch for Popeye. Like that's my anecdote is that like the people have spoken. People walk in, they see it and they go, Popeye. So their quarters, man, coin boxes full. It's good. My pitch. Yeah. As long as it's working. My pitch is that I am not operating games. A player who listens to every pinball podcast and spends a lot of time on inside wants to play our games. Awesome. But that isn't really who I'm putting games out for. I'm putting games out for people who do walk in and they're like their first response and i think you've said this which we get all the time is they're still making pinball machines yes uh that you know and like i i love when people say that because like that means they didn't know and now they do like that's great and and it's partly because they walked into our spot so like i you know full disclosure i bought popeye because i was like i like an underdog not gonna lie if someone's shitting on a game i want to be like is there any merit to that or are they just saying it because that's like you know the the party line since 1994. You're an intrepid adventurer. You're like, I gotta see for myself. I'm gonna go buy this game. I'm gonna work on it, make it work complete. I'm gonna shop it all out, and I'm gonna put it on location just to find out if it's as bad as everyone says it is. Daniel also went as far as, like, there are a couple mechanical nightmares of that game, and the finger slicer is okay. You can get around that. But the lock mech itself is, like, inherently flawed yeah and daniel went the center lock mech right re redesigning the the lock trough to make it more consistent and i remember you reaching out to like mantis or something being like i have an idea on how to make this work and they were like no one is gonna buy it but you were like one of the flaws of this game is like a mechanical thing that if the game was more beloved there would be oh totally there would be a million there'd be like all kinds of mods for and shit But I remember I posted in the Popeye Club group on Pinside, and I was like, hey, everyone, look at this thing I did. This is really exciting because the lock is more consistent. When you hit a ball in there, it actually locks. And it was just one person being like, cool.
    10:20
    Even in the Popeye Club, they didn't give a shit. So that's what we're up against here. But, I mean, I think there's just like a mystique, obviously. I like that it's an underdog. I like that there's, like, a freaking essay that Python Angelo, one of the designers, wrote about the lore of the game. Like, what is this? When's the last time there was, like, a short story written about a pinball machine? So I like that. I like that there's a wizard mode, and it's extremely hard to get to. Oh, like, we've never seen anybody get to it. There's, like, I think one YouTube video of someone getting there, and it's actually kind of sick. Like, it's kind of a cool animation. You know, it's, like, uncharted territory. I think a lot of it with Popeye is like it not intuitive how to get there as much as the other say 90s pins I like what exactly are you supposed to do to get to the wizard mode Who fucking cares
    11:16
    Because the only people that are going to get to the wizard mode are the people who are fucking seeking it out.
    11:23
    There's no – if every game beats you over the head on exactly what it's supposed to do – Well, I think there are current manufacturers who try to do that. It's always a critique. But like then Jersey Jack like puts like four screens on their one screen of like everything you're supposed to do. And you're like, what the fuck am I saying? And it's more confusing. Totally. So like it's a balance. And I think you can just shoot around on Popeye. And I don't know. I view it. This is I might be getting too crazy with this, but I like going to contemporary art museums because you walk in and you're like, I have no idea what I'm going to see. And I'm going to see some stuff that scares me. So it's like some stuff. Yeah, it's like a side show. it's an oddity that you just have to experience yeah it's like it's the same reason people i don't know travel to the pinball hall of fame to play pinball circus like oh yeah another python game right it's like it is which i had the gc there probably still even no way yeah i may remember i went there the last time and i was like you know what i'm gonna gc this bitch like i'm just gonna play this so i'm just gonna gc it i had some friends that that went there about a year after it and they saw my initials i put up wpg for wedginal p gator which is sort of our mascot as my initials and they were like oh it's still here like wedgehead sighting and i was like oh shit i forgot i even did that because that was like a year ago at that point i will also say that popeye has a lot of outstanding visual assets like what when you when you walk up and look at the game and i think that's that's another like thing to its merit is that it and i guess a lot of python games did this and i'm not a huge python head personally but i mean he did some pretty interesting stuff just visually you know it's like the game looks like a boat like that's cool you know like you know and whether it does the boat make it a great game i don't think so but it's it's cool yeah you know good good for him and he draws those people in like you're saying like when you guys put it in and every every tom dick and harry was drawn to it maybe that's part of it and in fact these games were designed these were meant to be put on location and earn money So Python, as an artist, was thinking visually about everything he ever did. Yeah. Also, as a callback to one of your episodes, I was thinking, I was like, does it have the best video mode in Pinball? What's that supposed to mean? Because the ball is actually moving around. So there's like a maze at the top that you're trying to get through. Well, it's not really a video mode, is it? Well, there's a, I don't know. I was going to bring it up and see what you thought, Alan, because have you played a working Popeye? I haven't played one in a while. There's only one in the whole Portland area out at Next Level out in Hillsborough. It's hard for me to like Next Level is great. It's hard for me to get out there because the hours that they're open are my work week. You know, so it's far away from me. It's about an hour drive from my house. I hope that they would open up more because they have an awesome collection. Well, so yeah, so Popeye has an upper playfield, and when you go up to the upper playfield, there's like a mode where you're like trying to get through a maze, and there's three, there's like a ramp that has three possible exits, and the way you navigate through the maze is by shooting each individual section of that ramp, and it will navigate. That's finding Sweetmeat, right? Yeah. Yeah, okay. And it's like the whole goal is to find the miniature Popeye baby that for some reason exists. And it's lost. And it's lost in a maze for God knows what reason. Yeah, I mean, but I guess that's kind of like, I always think of that as similar to the Safecracker maze game up top, but it's actually a pinball. Right, exactly. It's like a physical game that interacts with a dotmation-style trail game, really. Yeah. And I think that's kick-ass. It is. I mean, it's nearly impossible to complete, and you get very few points. I remember when we talked to Bowen about doing a tutorial on this, and we were just like, Bowen, if we're going to do a tutorial for Popeye, we want to see Sweet Pea. He's like, oh, I'll find Sweet Pea. Yeah, he's like, we want to see the wizard mode. He's like, I'll get you the wizard mode.
    15:29
    You want Popeye wizard mode? I got you. I think I want to start hearing why people hate this game, because I think we'll be able to knock those down way easier than we'll be able to build it up. I have one more thing that I just want to sell. So I think the reason Zoe... Oh, right. Why Zoe doesn't like playing it... Wait, I'm curious what you're going to say. So when Zoe plays it, it's right now at the Silhouette Lounge, just so I can torture new players with it. But when she plays it, she's only going for the multi-ball, and the lock shot is notoriously hard. It's right in the center, in the middle of the playfield. Right, under Baloo's head. Yeah, when I play it, I'm like, I want to shoot around the whole playfield. I want to see like the ball do all the fun stuff and like get item multi-ball, which is almost impossible to complete. So I'm just like, I want to see everything this game has to do. So he's focused on getting efficient points, right? And you're like, exactly. And how I think it was intended to be played, not just exploiting it for the best points, right? Right. Like the 3x jackpot in multi-ball is the way to get a high score. Right. That is. Right. but i think i think henderson came in and just like got multi-ball immediately and then just shot the jackpot over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and then i think like walked away yeah like and yeah like if you want to be boring like sure that game's gonna suck you know not to say zoe is boring no no no no exactly no it's on record she's a way of playing yeah we heard that's absolutely not true well well yeah i mean it's just like if you want to play the game the boring way sure that's a better way to say she says the same thing about gilligan there are similar things qualms about the code on gilligan that in the same way that she is just as passionately being like no they're wrong i mean you could play it the boring way if you want which i think is funny to find out that she plays popeye the boring way and refuses to play the fun way right yeah but anyway let's get into it let's get into the negative reviews negative reviews All right, so currently Popeye ranks number 247th in the Pennside Top Solid State Pinball Machines of All Time list out of 286 games that have received enough ratings to be eligible. What's number one? Godzilla. It's probably, yeah.
    17:42
    Come on. All right, so Popeye is way better than Godzilla, right? What the hell is wrong with you all? Okay. Is that what you're saying? I was going to say that, but I'm going to say that your number rating of it being way down there, already irrelevant. So let's move on to the next one.
    17:58
    I will say that it is slightly higher than Zoe's Die on this Hill game, Gilligan, which ranked 262. So it's 247, and Gilligan is 262. But here's some reviews I found on the internet. Okay, so Antoshka says, could have been much better, pretty average. I like the wizard mode, the animal hurry up, and I like the item multiball. I also like searching for sweet pea. What I do not like is the art and the fact that many of the shots on the upper playfield are obstructed by the boat, which I think is a cool toy, but it still could have been better. The fact that the multiball can become really unbalanced sucks. Every time you light another jackpot increases by 30 million. Not as bad as some people think, but not one of their better games. Gilligan is 10 times worse, even though they are rated almost as bad. That's why I included that one, because that's sort of like a middle of the road review, right? but because it included gilligan i wanted this on here because i wanted zoe to hear that so if you're listening i and toshka that toshka said that that wasn't me am i mean in response that sounds like a great review and you know i would also see that review and say i can't wait to make that game play tough and play 100 and have people enjoy it like that's a positive yeah i mean like i i i i would agree with a lot of those things like there are definitely unbalanced scoring as like many bally williams games from the era because like they didn't care you know what i mean like that's i was talking about that with bowen i was like oh this is back in the day when like they weren't coding for pinball tournaments like are you kidding me like sure they didn't give it there's more truth to that in some games but definitely and an upper play field always obscures the upper part sure pop lies a different level of that though like well but there is a crazy like weird window there's like a lexon window like a lexon window that like sure my only argument about that is just like it's like what everyone's the same fucking height like you know what i'm five four we're gonna get some more of this let me keep going so pun baller says this is a really ugly game and i can't see any reason why any adult would own popeye even if you try you can't be interested about the theme so the game pushes you away from the very beginning that added to the fact that the gameplay isn't good the wide body format makes it even worse upper play field blocks your vision and audio is like a lot of other game i recommend to play by something else if it's possible in fact i'm going to toss my cookies when i think about how much effort somebody put into creating this monster puke puke puke wow that person loves it uh yeah so i mean i'll say that i really don't understand everyone's okay the art the art i the back glass is a little disturbed popeye's like weird like but again i like being disturbed yeah that's my thing i mean i how many games do they use the natural wood grain yeah as a feature of the art so the the boat's deck when you look at the playfield the whole thing's supposed to look like a boat and the boat deck is wood paneled yeah it's literally just like it's just a raw plywood underneath the art yeah just clear it over And they have some lines that are the planks of wood and they use the physical wood. No, it's awesome. Yeah, I think that's here's the thing is Python's art style is very divisive and some people really, really like it. And some people really, really don't. I think that Python did the art, but there's also a couple artists credited to that did different things. But what I like about I love the play field, like you said, with the wood in it. And I love the top-down kind of view, the skewed perspective view that he's kind of famous for doing on his Playfield art packages. I love the cabinet art on it. It looks like, you know, it's a big ship. It's really awesome. It's art with all these, like, animals on it, which, again, we didn't really touch on. But the theme is, like, it's Popeye, but he also saves the Earth, so he's saving these animals. So it's a weird mashup theme, even though it's a licensed theme. But I think the art's good. But, again, you know, art is subjective and truly Python, man. And he is very, in the pinball community, people love or hate Python art, dude. So I love it. I think it's interesting. Another, if I can, another response to that, if we're getting into that review in particular, is like one of the things that he says is like I can see any adult owning this game Yes And I think that another another kind of like interesting point where you know i think for so long pinball you know really from like the late 90s i would say even until kind of recently majority of the pinball has just been like goons on the internet who like have 10 games in their basement and it's just like i can't imagine any adult owning this game i'm just like i can't imagine any adult like owning a 300 pound box that they put in their house unless they're insane. Yeah, it's like an absurd concept. Which I am. Expand your imagination a little, buddy. Get creative. Yeah, I think Popeye's a perfect game in a wide lineup. You know, because of all... It's another one of those things where if you read that review and frame it as a positive review, it's like, wow, excellent. That's great. It's like it's got a bunch of weird things. The artwork's a little strange. It's got some wonky shots. Yeah, five stars. Five stars. Now that's not the right sort of attitude for you to have. Yeah, there are some negative points that I haven't heard yet that I want to... Yeah, let's keep going. I'm going to keep going. Yeah, yeah. So Tempest says, quote, the worst Bally Williams D&D machine you can get. Previous to playing this, I thought I could enjoy any modern pinball machine. Popeye proved me wrong. It proves wrong also to the people who worship anything this company did. I would rather play a good Data East or Gottlieb any day. It's a kids-themed pinball, and he puts in parentheses, not a problem with me i like flintstones for example but it's also wide body not that they take anything good from the extra space the rules are a complete mess saving the animals or whatever has the second play field on the top that's not horrible he says the good there's one good shot the ball goes by the right in lane and you can shoot for the loop as many times as you can and the play field looks like a boat play for upper play field is okay that's the good and then He says, the bad theme and rules all over the place. Big blue turd of a ramp on the left that blocks the view. What were they thinking? Big wheel motor on the right that makes a hell of a noise and adds nothing to the game. Sounds and music going up, going up. Some shots with the view completely obstructed from the upper play field. End quote. Man, it's crazy too because it's like the things that we literally said were like a bad part of the game. The choosing to play it the boring way by shooting that right ramp over and over again. And it's funny that this reviewer was like, oh, that's one of the best parts of the game, is you can shoot that one shot over and over and over again. Yeah, I think they were just saying they like to shoot in orbit, which is like... Well, no, I think they were talking about the... Oh, the right ramp. The right... Sorry, the left ramp that feeds itself over and over again. Wasn't it? Yeah. It says, one good shot, the ball goes by the right in lane, and you can shoot for the loop as many times as you can. So, yeah, I guess it would be on the left side, because it goes to the right in lane. They're probably talking about the ramp, the left ramp. This sounds like one of the service requests we get that are completely unintelligent. I think they definitely took a big swing with Popeye. Did it completely hit? No, of course not. It never does. But I don't know. And I think you've touched on this before. It's kind of like people are like, make a play feel different. And then someone makes it different. They're like, no, that's too different. Make it less different. I think George Gomez spoke about that in an interview I listened to before when he was talking about NBA fast break. he was like everyone tells you man like make something different we need something different i give you nba fast break and i make it basketball scoring and i give it a weird layout and everyone that game tanked you know and which is funny now because it earns extremely well at wedgehead dude i mean people love that game they just play this shit out of it but i'm going to keep going on popeye that's for a different time so oh don't we touch more on some of the i mean it is also funny that there's so many criticisms about like the you guys might be surprised but there's a lot of these so i'm gonna i'm gonna try to move through these a little bit quicker yeah keep it uh i mean feel free to interject but i know you guys are popeyes fans you're gonna be surprised that there's a lot of these okay okay okay i'll shut up here okay so moth says my one-liner rating is quote i would rather play bugs bunny's birthday bash over popeye any day of the week this game is so horrible it doesn't deserve my time typing into these characters on my keyboard ugly horrible visibility on most anything on the main play field this game should never have been allowed to be made end quote wow do you want to react to that one at all i mean that was just a pure a to rage review just keep well my my quick reaction is i mean this just proves the point of like i'd rather play bugs bunny it's like well i'd rather play bugs bunny than godzilla so like i mean to each their own right you know what i mean like bugs bunny is it like a really smooth like cool layout with great like great rules no of course not like it's interesting and weird as hell and it's very I've never very weird I've have I ever played one that's like pristine and working perfectly no but I would love to my review is that sounds like my review of the review is it sounds like someone who's who's never never thought about like manufacturing and production because I think that's a that's also a big thing to talk about on you know sort of criticizing like this game got made and it's just like well they had to fill a production slot you know it's like it was probably yeah it should never have been made it's kind of like a yeah it's like i you know pat lawler i remember said like you know by the time we realized we fucked up when we made twilight zone it was too late you know it's like it was on test and we realized that it was going to tank and yeah yeah you know so you know it's i have to give like some leeway to like just the nature of production oh yeah dude if you if you go up to the plate you're going to strike out sometimes you know that's just the nature of the game All right, let's keep going here. But Zuciant says,
    28:16
    Fun factor, non-existent. I mean, I think fun is what you make it. Again, you know, I've made a couple layouts of games, but I'm not going to sit here and criticize everything. I mean, also, I don't know, Black Knight 2000. Yeah. That's what I always think about. I don't prefer playing that game because I feel like a lot of the shots are obscured. Yeah. So I have less fun playing it, but people freaking love that game. All the Black Knights.
    28:41
    Not my first one as much. Sword of Rage, LE. The upper play field on Sword of Rage. you can't see yeah definitely yeah an upper playfield will inherently obscure some of the lower playfield i mean that's just the way it is but also like there are so many upper playfield games where there isn't anything underneath it you know and who's to say that wasn't who's to say they didn't try the experiment and people loved the new use of space that was otherwise unused yeah that's true and i mean black knight the original the first upper playfield game they sold the shit out of those it was a watershed moment in pinball so then it became like a bunch of copycats and people still occasionally do upper play fields today so i mean it's just and then there are people that hate all upper play fields there are people that like some and not others but you know it is what it is i i also think that there's a lot of negative comments about it being a wide body um which i think which i think people hate wide bodies that's a different episode in and of itself we're going to do an episode on wide bodies in the future uh yeah i just i just think it's interesting that there's a lot of a lot of criticisms of just like it's a wide body you know and i'm just like well you know again they tried something you know the the industry was kind of you know in a turn they tried changing their packaging and then they they tried something else they made a bunch of pins or wide body some were better than others you know whatever here's the next review this guy has reviewed more machines on pin side than anyone else his name is caucasian two-step and he says oh yeah popeye is an unusual game and it seems to occupy its own pinball surreality. The pros, lots to do, lots to shoot at, hidden aspects of the game required you really discover and look hard for your shots. The upper play field seems to have quite a bit to do on it. The maze idea takes a bit to get used to, but it actually works. The cons for a wide body game, it plays like a narrow body table. The unusual mechs on the game slow it down and seem to keep the ball out of play as compared to being a fast and furious deck. Takeaway, I like the character Popeye, however, with this theme with saving the world, makes no sense to me. Then again, this is pinball we are entering the theater of python where anything can happen read the proposed game theme on this game's entry if you want to see how deep he wanted to go on this game i still not have gotten to know this game and have yet to form a real opinion on it other than it just seems strange does not grab my attention it's not good i'll play it again when i can update the scores accordingly and then he and then he comes back later and updates his review he says after about a dozen plays i still have no idea how to play this game not a good sign at all honestly that's a super honest and that review felt really really good reviews like his really thoughts are always thoughtful and thought out don't always obviously like everyone likes different stuff so i don't always agree with his reviews but he always puts a lot of effort and thought into his reviews yeah i feel like a lot of have i have not reviewed i think i may review like one game on pinside like i don't know if these are from pinside or not but from pinside and from ipdb there's definitely like uh like an edge lord quality to a lot of yeah pinside reviews where It's like, yeah, like, and it's, well, I will say that maybe on the forums, you get a lot of that on the actual reviews themselves. There's surprisingly few bad review. Cause what happens is most of these people are home collectors and nobody wants to buy a game for a lot of money and drive out of their way and set up in their house. The people that don't like it usually just sell it and move on. People that bought it, the people that end up reviewing a lot of these, you know, they write good reviews. Like by and large, most of them are good. So like seeing this many bad reviews is indicative, which is, I mean, this is what makes the segment fun. But sure. Right. I can't remember. I haven't uncovered it, but I know Steve Ritchie went on like a big rant about how much he thinks Popeye sucks. Well, you're the expert. It's somewhere. I can't remember if it was like an expo transcript or something, but apparently he went on this like elongated rant about like how much he hates that game. That's so funny. And I have yet to really dig into it. I mean, Steve's a pretty opinionated guy, and I don't really... I'll take any strong opinion just as much as any other one. I just had a curiosity because he's an industry person. He designs games. I'd love to hear some of his criticisms. Oh, man, I would love to. Moving right along. Bumper says, not great. Could be so much better with this theme. Look at the Popeye arcade game. Upper playfield looks like a toilet seat. You can't see where to shoot.
    32:54
    Left blue ramp of skeer shots. Bleh. There's the bleh is in there spelled out. Nice. All right. I like the toilet comparison. That's awesome. Give us another one. All right. Spasmat says, I want to like it. Theme, artwork, and wide body should make it attractive, but this game just fails to keep me interested. I hate the layout, especially the fact that the majority of the playfield is hidden. Again this is a common theme For players taller than toddler size Upper playfield is okay but not used enough The left blue ramp is a good idea but implemented quite bad Perhaps if they made it in clear plastic it would have worked better They could have made better use of the theme as well. I mean, did Bally cancel a Noah's Ark pin and merge it with this? Sure seems like it. Sorry for the bad score, but in my opinion, it's the worst of the mid-90s pins. It's funny to me to hear so many people be like, the theme could have been great. And like, you know, I don't know. I've seen like a couple Popeye clips, but I'm just like, it doesn't seem like a theme that's super rich for sticking to the book narratives. It's like, I don't know, the guy like can barely talk and he has it out, like really wants to date this one gal. Well, I also like that the Noah's Ark thing because I like that he's saving the Earth and by saving the Earth, he's saving no other humans. It's like, yes, that is correct. That is actually how you save the Earth, all humans to drown, question mark. don't really know exactly probably don't remember the story exactly but who gets on yeah does it do we see anyone else get on the boat in that game wimpy question mr wimpy all the animals i don't know he's eating a burger again i i so yeah to me that's a feature not a bug that i'm confused like if i if i walk up to a game i play it once and i like crush it and i'm like yeah this and i like do everything i'm like well that sucked now i'm done you know what i mean like i think that's all we all agree on yeah yeah all right so i got two more left sesh pilot says wow popeye is truly a disaster i really want to like this game though it can be found for so cheap looks absolutely gorgeous oh so here's someone that likes the art oh that's a cool gimmicks there's a very cool theme it's just terrible though i don't even mind that i can't see half the shots because honestly more than that, it just plays so slow. And I mean slow. Why was this game a wide body? I'll never understand. The toy on the left side of the game is terrible. It's next impossible to skillfully versus accidentally get your ball on the top play field. For as much of the bottom of the play field that the top one covers, you would have thought it would have been more central to the actual game. It's definitely family friendly, but that's about it. I never want to believe the hype, good or bad here on pin side but this one has an accurate reputation pass end quote yeah i mean this gets back to what you're saying earlier like if i judged corvette off action jackson corvette played at once i would have been like this game sucks but like yeah and i because they just didn't it was broken you know like what literally one of the flippers was like a bally shoe flipper somehow No, it was a godly system. Oh, no, it wasn't? No, no, that was on Indie. Anyway. Man, that's crazy. But, like, you know, like, my Popeye does not play slow. In fact, it plays, like, extremely fast. It has lightning flippers. It's, like, I keep it at a steep pitch. It's always cleaned and whacked. So, like, I mean, it sounds like that Popeye they play does suck. Yeah, that's, yeah. If anyone ever says, like, that game plays slow, fix it. Like, you clearly own the game. Like, make it fast. Like, you know, like, you know, it's not. That's a you problem. Yeah.
    36:34
    That's just like your opinion, man. Yeah. It's like, well, I put the wrong size wheels on my car and now it drives like shit, you know?
    36:43
    All right. So I want to get excited for the last review. I'm really interested to hear what you guys think about this review in particular. Some guy named GuyMontag451 says, This is a great example of a terrible pinball machine. This is also a great game to use as an example for those close-minded people with a DMD bias that tend to say that any DMD is better than any EM or early solid state game. Not a bad idea for a family theme pin here, but God is this awful. No shots, huge wasted in view, obstructed bottom play field, pointless launch skill shot, multiball sucks, and no ramps. What the hell? Sometimes the game is unfairly dogged, and sometimes the game just really sucks. As is the case with Popeye Saves the Earth. No ramps, no balls.
    37:30
    Game was off when I played it. So boring. Completely dark. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, I mean, I don't really know what to make of that review other than just like... I want to let you guys in on this. I wrote that review. Oh!
    37:51
    No ramps. I got a flipper. Flippers didn't work. Yeah, flippers, yeah. Buttons fell off, but my pocket walked away.
    38:00
    I think hearing so many people talk about, like, obscured shots I think is really funny, too, because you hit a shot once by accident that's obscured, like, I don't know, you know where it is. It depends how you find shots, I guess, as a player. Like, when I see people playing Popeye, they're, like, ducking down really low, like, trying to see the shot. I'm like, yeah, get physical. And then you figure out where it is. And then, I don't know, I think there's like, there's much more than like a visual, your mental image of where a shot is, is so much more important than being actually able to physically see it unobstructed. It is interesting. I was wondering, because in that review, you're saying, I mean, I agree with the idea that like comparing DMDs or people saying, oh, DMDs are better than solid states. I'm like, yeah, I don't, I don't know if that was of its time. What this was referring to is I feel like there's still a group of people. We always put classics out. I mean, Wedgehead is an EM, right? Like it's based on the Gottlieb single player Wedgehead machines. But we always put out EMs. We always put out solid state games. And I love that. That's truly where my heart is in pinball these days, to be honest. It's like those are the games that I truly love, like truly, truly love and have a deep affinity for. But it's hard to get players to always want to play them or see the value in those older games. I always refer to it as that is the pure dope. Like that is uncut, unstepped on shit. Like that's the good shit that is like, and it's not that there isn't good games from all eras. And I really love the 90s era too. But when I wrote this review, I think it was like 13 or 14 years ago, there was a big thing of like, if it didn't have ramps and multi balls, if it wasn't at least a DMD era, then the game wasn't good. You know? Oh, interesting. So, yeah. Wait, I got confused. You wrote this review ages ago? Seriously? Yeah. Oh, I thought you like created a Pinside account. No, no, no. Fake name just to fucking troll this. What are you implying? Oh, wow. So you're being serious on that. No, no, no. That was my impression of playing it. Yeah, whatever. 13 years ago or whatever it is. It keeps track on Pinside. I'm not active on Pinside anymore, but that was back when I got into the hobby and I wanted to start playing games because I lived in Portland. I had access to all these games. I was like, I'm going to play these games. And that was like, Pinside wasn't brand new, but it was still at the point where Robin, the guy that started the site, he was like encouraging people. He's like, hey, if you go play these games, like, please review them so that we could build, you know, a database and rankings so people can kind of, you know, see how, you know, like how to make decisions on whether or not to buy a game or whatever. And so I started writing reviews for games that, you know, I would go out and I'd session a game and play. My thing back then was always like, I won't review a game until I've played at least 10 plays on it. I was always like play at least 10 plays on it. And I had to make sure that every feature was working or I wouldn't write a review. But that doesn't mean that I gave every game like, you know, the best light or I was in the right mindset. And some games don't speak to you when you first play them, which is why I really wanted to do this segment, this regular recurring segment, which is like we went out and played Gilligan after we talked or after I was talking to Zoe about how much she likes it. And my co-host Alex, who's out sick, but he and I went out and we sought it out at this pizza spot and we played it and we had a good fucking time. And I hated that game too. I wrote a bad review that I quote in that first episode. Yeah. So I think it's fun because I re-rated a lot of these games that I think a lot of people are going to bring up and I'm going to have my own personal opinions that I'll get to read out, which I think will be really funny. topic of like uh the you know people who say every dmd is better you know there's a lot of people who like think that way about spike twos a lot yeah you know oh yeah if it doesn't have insider connected like i'm not playing it and like you know we have a couple of those players every now and again who come to our locations for either casual tournaments or league nights and you know you'd be surprised how many of those people choose our ems like even in tournament play um you know if we have a tournament where you get to, like, pick the game or something like that, you know. And I think it goes to, you know, the whole topic of just, you know, like, every game is, you know, at least deserves some light if you make it play well. Like, if it plays well and if everything's, you know, functioning on it and it's set up mean and fast, everyone's going to like it. It seems to me, what is it, Occam's Razor, like, it's very unlikely that Barry Osler and Python Angelo finished the Whitewood, shot it, and they're like, this sucks. let's let's let's print it let's go for it for sure yeah you know what i mean drop it we're gonna hate this dude it wasn't like a joke they were playing with everyone and it really it really started out bad i mean i don't know if you're going to touch on the history at all but like coming out at the same time as like i think mortal kombat 2 and they like bally like made people buy popeye if they were gonna the operators had to buy popeye to get mortal kombat 2 so they were all pissed to start with damn because they were forced into buying it and then so a lot of them just like used it for parts because it does have a lot of good parts good bally williams part so like the amount of working popeyes that are still together is pretty damn low yeah i was gonna say too that they sold over 4 000 units of it which is pretty good for how it's generally considered now but i guess that makes sense that they're bundling it with like hey you want immortal combat you gotta buy popeyes i mean but they also only made what 3 500 attack from mars i think yeah but that was a little bit later that was when the decline had already started yeah who knows well i mean if you see a popeye you're gonna love that's my that's my review just gotta go with an open mind you'll love this game yeah well i want to thank you guys both again for joining me again on another episode of the wet ship pinball podcast set up here to defend popeye saves the earth i'm gonna end this with the way I always end these episodes, which is go out, play some pinball in location, and get on the pinball map and look for a Popeye. If a Popeye is near you, go out and play it, okay? Give it a chance. You've heard the bad reviews. You've heard Daniel and Ty here defend its honor. So go make up your own mind. Thank you, Daniel. Thank you, Ty, for joining me. Until next time, everyone. Thank you. Good luck. Don't suck.
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