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Episode 50 - The 90s Pinball Renaissance Pt.2 w/ Roger Sharpe

Wedgehead Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 21m·analyzed·Sep 30, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.039

TL;DR

Roger Sharpe details 1990s pinball design legends and industry dynamics.

Summary

Roger Sharpe discusses the 1990s pinball renaissance with hosts Alan and Alex, focusing on legendary designers Pat Lawlor and Steve Ritchie, internal Williams design competition dynamics, and the impact of figures like Dennis Nordman, Python Angelo, and Larry DeMar. Sharpe reflects on the Capcom opportunity, Steve Ritchie's departure to video games, and how design philosophy and corporate structure shaped the era.

Key Claims

  • Pat Lawlor's design approach centers on immediate, interactive feedback moments built into the game mechanics rather than software

    high confidence · Roger Sharpe describing Pat's design philosophy: 'pat builds a lot of those moments into the game itself which makes them an immediate draw'

  • Steve Ritchie redefined pinball by introducing fluidity and smooth flow that fundamentally changed the game's design direction

    high confidence · Roger: 'Steve Ritchie really, in some ways, redefined pinball design. He made it flow. He made it smooth.'

  • Steve Ritchie left Williams in 1995 primarily due to personal reasons (parents' health, opportunity in video games) rather than reading the industry downturn

    medium confidence · Roger: 'I believe that part of the reason for him wanting to go back to California was the health of his parents and wanting to be there as well as the opportunity through Atari'

  • Star Wars Episode I development was locked down with security restrictions that prevented internal design team feedback, unlike typical Williams design culture

    high confidence · Roger: 'Anything having to do with Star Wars Episode I was on a need-to-know basis where everybody was locked out except myself and the principal members of the design team'

  • Dennis Nordman was laid off by Williams and Bally due to economic scaling-back rather than performance issues

    high confidence · Roger: 'when you talk about Williams in particular, Dennis leaving was just a net result of, guess what, we're shutting down pinball. Right. We're kind of lessening the groups.'

  • Python Angelo served as producer and director alongside lead designers Mark Ritchie and Barry Oursler, bringing artistic vision to games like Penbot and Fishtails

    high confidence · Roger: 'Python was instrumental. He was a producer and a director, along with the lead designer.'

  • Capcom entry into pinball had potential to become dominant but faced the same corporate profitability pressures that ultimately forced manufacturers like Sega and Data East out

    medium confidence · Roger speculating: 'I think that pinball could have been able to endure but who knows if it would have fallen victim to the same way that Sagan Data East did'

Notable Quotes

  • “Pat has that carnival aspect to his approach to games, toys or whatever else. And I think that it became very much a signature of Pat's games throughout the years.”

    Roger Sharpe @ early segment — Defines Pat Lawlor's design philosophy as carnival-inspired surprise and wonder

  • “Steve Ritchie really, in some ways, redefined pinball design. He made it flow. He made it smooth. ...His vision was totally different when it came to pinball.”

    Roger Sharpe @ mid-segment — Establishes Ritchie's transformative influence on pinball as a design paradigm shift toward fluidity

  • “pat builds a lot of those moments into the game itself which makes them an immediate draw. I think that's why they were such a huge success back in the day and still...keeps generations of players coming back to those titles”

    Roger Sharpe @ early-mid segment — Explains the enduring appeal of Lawlor games through mechanical design rather than software-based moments

  • “Python was instrumental. He was a producer and a director, along with the lead designer. I think the two people that you mentioned, both Mark and Barry, have the belief and the strength within themselves to abdicate some of their ego and vanity to allow Python to express his visions.”

    Roger Sharpe @ mid-late segment — Clarifies Python Angelo's collaborative role and the ego management required to work with him

  • “Anything having to do with Star Wars Episode I was on a need-to-know basis where everybody was locked out except myself and the principal members of the design team.”

    Roger Sharpe @ mid-segment — Reveals unprecedented security/isolation protocols for Star Wars EP1 development, contrasting with typical Williams collaborative design culture

  • “I believe that part of the reason for him wanting to go back to California was the health of his parents and wanting to be there as well as the opportunity through Atari which we had purchased to design video games”

    Roger Sharpe @ mid-late segment — Provides previously unreported context for Steve Ritchie's 1995 departure from Williams

Entities

Pat LawlorpersonSteve RitchiepersonRoger SharpepersonDennis NordmanpersonPython AngelopersonLarry DeMar

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Economic scaling-back and profitability pressures forced Williams to reduce game production and lay off talented designers like Dennis Nordman, regardless of merit; those who wouldn't transition to slot machines were forced out

    high · Roger: 'Dennis leaving was just a net result of...we're shutting down pinball...we're scaling back...Unless you want to transition over into slot machines...if you were primarily pinball, that was it'

  • ?

    business_signal: Corporate public accountability to shareholders and stock value replaced family business mentality at Williams/Bally, creating constant pressure to cut pinball division despite profitability, foreshadowing industry collapse

    medium · Roger: 'It's very difficult working for a publicly held company...shareholder value. You know, the ruination of the industry, by and large, all happened a couple of decades earlier...you now become accountable to a different board of directors'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Influence chain visible across decades: Pat Lawlor's falling building mech in Earthshaker (1989) → pulled from production → reflected 30+ years later in Stern's Godzilla as signature feature, demonstrating persistent design DNA

    medium · Alan: 'Earthshaker, I know, originally had that falling building mech that was pulled out for the production run...And then it's funny to see the influence like all the years later with Godzilla...it's got a kind of that same falling building mech'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Steve Ritchie redefined pinball through fluidity, smooth flow, and connected shot sequences; this design paradigm became the foundation for all subsequent modern pinball design including current Stern games

    high · Roger: 'Steve Ritchie really redefined pinball design...His vision was totally different...pinball would have never been what it ultimately became without Steve Ritchie' and Alan: 'every Stern game today plays fast. Yeah. Like Steve Ritchie wanted.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.245

0:00
🎵 All I can say is that my life is pretty plain I like watching the puddles gather rain Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. My name is Alan, your host, joined by my normal co-host Alex the Waterboy. Howdy. We're also joined again today by our friend and now multiple time contributor to the show, Mr. Roger Sharp. Roger, how are you doing? I'm good. How are you guys doing? Very good. Happy to talk to you. We're going to do our second episode of Pinball Renaissance of the 1990s, a decade which Roger Sharp helped shape as the marketing director. If you haven't listened to the first episode, go ahead and do that now. But there was a lot of stuff that the man, the myth, the legend, Roger Sharp, you know, we didn't get to talk about. It was a decade from 1988 to 1998. Saw a lot of new and rapid developments in the game of pinball. A lot of stuff we talked about in that first episode, like the crazy mechanical toys, the introduction of more immersive software, a new display technology with the dot matrix screen. We got some big time licenses and a pretty remarkable boom and bust period for pinball in general. We tried to keep that last episode mostly informative and chronological and talk about kind of the merger, that period of games, what made them special and talk about some of the massive changes and innovations in the industry. but there are just so many interesting characters, stories, games that came out. I had a lot more questions I want to ask Roger that wouldn't fit neatly into that first episode. So this episode we're calling the 1990s Pinball Renaissance Part 2 with special guest Roger Sharp. Thank you once again for joining us, Roger. My pleasure. Yeah, let's get this thing started. You spoke a little bit in the first episode. I just want to talk about, we got to talk about Pat Lawler. We talked about crazy toys and mechanics into games. You know, he brings his first prototype game that he made with Larry DeMar, which eventually became Banzai Run. It was brought in as Wrecking Ball, and I know that Wrecking Ball is, I don't know if Pat owns it or if it's been sold off to a collector, but I know Wrecking Ball is still around. From what your perspective about Pat, like he's such a unique talent in the pantheon of kind of great pinball designers, but when you play a Pat Lawler game, what stands out to you? The interactivity of what he brings into any of the games that he's designed, that sense of surprise, that sense of wonder. I'll use Earthshaker as an example. There's nothing remarkable on the surface until you play it and you get to the point where suddenly it falls apart and the game shakes. Yeah. I mean, wow. I think that, you know, with Path, there were things that were very much overt. Oh, wow, I see that. What is that going to do versus other things where it's like, huh, where did that come from? And I think there was that sense of wonder. Pat has, I think, has that carnival aspect to his approach to games, toys or whatever else. And I think that it became very much a signature of Pat's games throughout the years. I mean, from the Williams and Bally days to Stern, you know a Pat Lawler game, whether it's Ripley's, whether it's Monopoly, whether it is No Good Gophers, whether people like it or don't like it, you just have to have an appreciation of his style of gameplay. And in some ways, his games tend to be stop and start games. Yeah. And by that, I mean you are going to a particular area. The ball is going to be held, stopped, diverted, or whatever else, so that you can get X feedback, whatever that feedback might be. Sound, a fan blowing in your face, whatever it is. You're going to get something, some level of immediacy. And I think that that is the beauty of Pat and what his legacy is. I think it's very much he builds those pinball moments. It's something that, you know, it's kind of a cliche. thing in the pinball community to talk about these moments and so many of those are software based but pat builds a lot of those moments into the game itself which makes them an immediate draw i think that's why they were such a huge success back in the day and still i mean his games still are it's just something that keeps i don't know keeps generations of players coming back to those titles and he's also often compared to steve richie who we also talked about a little bit in that last episode they are sort of like a little bit like oil and water in sort of their design philosophies um and maybe their personalities i was gonna say but it's sort of like a magic and bird from the nba they're kind of two radically different types of designers but they were both undeniably great we just spoke about pat but what stands out to you about conversely same question but like how would you describe steve's style of design and what does playing a steve richie design feel like to you? Transformative. In the history of pinball, there are some people who just kind of stand out, kind of touched upon Harry Williams for a period of decades, what he brought to bear and the influence that it had. Steve Ritchie really, in some ways, redefined pinball design. He made it flow. He made it smooth. Go back to even something like Airborne Avenger or Superman or effectively what became Stellar Wars. He gave you a sense of fluidity that had never, ever existed before. His vision was totally different when it came to pinball. In some ways, I think that pinball would have never been what it ultimately became without Steve Ritchie bringing what he brought with such flair, the speed, the fluidity of it, just the flow. My God, it was great. It was something that was empowering to you as a player to see that magnificent sweep of a shot going up and around and over and under and whatever it might have been. And I thought that that influence along with Pat, when you look at both of those together, truly, it epitomizes what the future of pinball was going to be and subsequently became with all of the designers that have followed. Absolutely. It was that mold. And, you know, taking nothing away from Norm Clark or Steve Kordak or Wayne or others from an earlier era, even Jim Patla and Greg Kamek, as being more contemporary, needed to change their philosophy and approach to game design. Even myself, in terms of the games that I was doing, needed to take a fresher look and say, all right, what do I want to accomplish and achieve? Forgetting about the program and the rule sets, I'm talking about just the overall geometry. What is going to be there that is going to be compelling? I cannot say enough. And the fact of the longevity of both, and I know Pat has recently said, I've had enough, whether or not it stays that way, we'll wait to see. Steve cranking out his latest gem, Elton John, you know, he still has the juice. Absolutely. It is insane to see the output of Steve over whatever it's now been, 45 plus years, and to see them still putting out fresh games that are still awesome just to shoot on their own. I will just echo your points quickly for the viewers. I agree with Roger 100% in both of those takes about Pat and Steve. I knew you would eloquently be able to speak on, like, philosophical level about what those games feel like. And Steve Ritchie 100%. I'm just like, my God, the speed and fluidity of the game. What people want. like comboing ramps, things like that is just, that's Steve Ritchie, man. Yep. And every Stern game today plays fast. Yeah. Like Steve Ritchie wanted. And I know he's no longer there, but like his fingerprints and Pat's fingerprints too. I mean, these are two indelible designers that you can't extricate yourself from their importance in pinball and what pinball is today. And Earthshaker, I know, originally had that falling building mech that was pulled out for the production run, I think. That's the game I'm thinking of. And then it's funny to see the influence like all the years later with Godzilla, which is arguably Stern's, you know, it's, I assume their best-selling game of all time. And it's, you know, it's got a kind of that same falling building mech worked into it in a way. So it's funny to see the influence of those guys like all these years later still. Kind of going back to something you touched on in the last episode, and you just brought up how Steve Ritchie was influencing your design work at the time. George Gomez has uh repeatedly mentioned in the past that Bally Williams the design apartment uh it felt like he always says shark tank or like rival street gangs in that the competition like you said last episode was very much within the walls of Williams you weren't necessarily trying to compete with other pinball manufacturers you were competing against each other there or they were competing against each other did you see that as a more helpful thing or how was it helpful and How was it harmful? What was your take on the environment within the design team, specifically at Bally Williams? I think it helped elevate everybody's game, in all honesty. I mean, I think that George Gomez would be the first one to say that his major influence was Steve Ritchie. Yeah. If you take a look at a game like Corvette. Yeah, I want something that's going to be fast and, you know, going to have these kind of shots and have this side ramp. And I'm going to build and model, because a little bit of influence, obviously, from Pat. I'm going to build this motor, this Corvette motor, and then you're going to be able to control this, and I'm going to put these cars on a track over here. I mean, you take a look and you see what is so emblematic from all of the various designers and teams. The fact that I'll bring up a name that unfortunately is not one that conjures up lots of positive people. But I know that the team, at least, maybe I can do it that way, felt very isolated when it came to working on episode one because of the lockdown and not having the ability to interact and get feedback from outside the team. That was incredibly harmful, some receptivity to the game. And I won't get into some of the details as to how that game was born. What do you mean by lockdown? Were they not allowed to talk to other people about the Pinball 2000 development? Pinball 2000 was one thing. Everybody could share that. Anything having to do with Star Wars Episode I was on a need-to-know basis where everybody was locked out except myself and the principal members of the design team. So nobody was allowed behind the locked, secured door to play a whiteboard, to offer feedback and input. But look, everybody was very much proprietary when it came to their own stuff, their clothes. They don't want somebody to come in and, what do you mean you're going to borrow this or do this or whatever else? You know, everybody wanted to still be somewhat original in regard to their thought process. But by the same token, it was a question of, you know, Steve Kordak walking around, myself, at the end of the day, hitting everybody's offices and seeing what's going on and seeing things as they progressed. We used to call it the bottom of the stairs. for video games in development, as well as pinball. So you can make some notes, offer feedback, see what you're thinking. It's a game, early, early development. It's a whitewood, just a few little parts here and there. So I think that that type of team dynamic, if you will, within a company, where, yes, everybody was incredibly competitive, sometimes without getting into specifics, maybe taking advantage of a situation that maybe might have been dealt with differently. But I think that, by and large, at the end of the day, the net result was to bring out the best in everybody and to have them all step up. A boy like Brian Eddy coming out of the blue. Yeah. I mean, hi, you're moving from video over to, okay, and come along with some stellar games. It was looking at that repository of talent and saying, look, I mean, when you take somebody like Steve Ritchie and Mark Ritchie off a production line called Atari and suddenly make them designers. I mean, here are the keys to the car. Knock yourself out. What do you got? And there's a budget, by the way. But show us what you got. That was the opportunity at Williams Valley at the time, even with proven designers from a prior era like Dennis Nordman and Ward and Ken Pemberton. Yeah. Peter Perry getting a shot at it. So, you know, it was an interesting amalgam, if you will, not only of personalities, but of particular design strengths. And you brought up some more that we're going to talk about here. I do think it's interesting. Like Brian Eddy, he works in software. where he ends up coming over to design some amazing games that get remade and still talked about to this day. George Gomez also started in Midway. He started in video games, and then he went and worked at Marvin Glass, and he designed toys. And it's no surprise that he's kind of the chief creative officer at Stern in that he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades there. He seems, I mean, he designed some fantastic games, but he also seems to know a little bit about a lot of things. and he definitely knows the industry. But I want to ask you more about Dennis Nordman because Dennis Nordman, I think of this time period, we're talking 88 to 99. We're talking about the pinball renaissance here of the 90s. Of this era, I think he's my personal favorite, but I also know that he got laid off by Bally twice and I know he got laid off by Stern later. Whitewater's my favorite game of all time, but I also count Demolition Man, Indy 500, Scared Stiff amongst my favorite from the 90s as well. I just want to ask you more about Dennis. What was it like to work with him? He seems so nice, but he always seems to get canned. Do nice guys really finish last?

  • Larry DeMar had transformative impact on both video games (Defender) and pinball across iconic titles like Black Knight, High Speed, Funhouse, Addams Family, and Twilight Zone

    high confidence · Alan: 'Larry never did. He programmed so many iconic pins. Black Knight, High Speed, Funhouse, Adam's Family, Twilight Zone, World Cup Soccer.'

    • “I do honestly believe that being in a different position than the one that I was in, I could have influenced much, much more.”

    Roger Sharpe @ late segment — Reflects on the Capcom opportunity and suggests alternate history where his influence could have changed pinball industry trajectory

    person
    George Gomezperson
    Mark Ritchieperson
    Brian Eddyperson
    Barry Ourslerperson
    Lyman Sheetsperson
    Bill Fuzz/Bill Futzperson
    Williams (Bally Williams)company
    Capcomcompany
    Ataricompany
    Earthshakergame
    Whitewatergame
    Demolition Mangame
    Penbot / Machine Bride of Penbotgame
    Twilight Zonegame
    Addams Familygame
    Elton Johngame
    Corvettegame
    Star Wars Episode Igame
    Godzillagame
  • ?

    design_philosophy: Pat Lawlor builds 'pinball moments' into mechanical game design rather than relying on software, creating immediate carnival-inspired surprise and wonder that generates lasting player appeal across generations

    high · Roger: 'pat builds a lot of those moments into the game itself which makes them an immediate draw...keeps generations of players coming back to those titles'

  • $

    market_signal: Capcom had genuine potential to become dominant pinball manufacturer if it had entered market earlier with adequate funding and corporate commitment, but faced same profitability pressures that forced Sega and Data East out

    medium · Roger: 'I mean, that's why I considered making the jump...Yes. I mean, that's why I considered making the jump...there was that unique opportunity...but who knows if it would have fallen victim to the same way that Sagan Data East did'

  • ?

    business_signal: Star Wars Episode I development imposed unprecedented security lockdown with isolated design team unable to receive internal feedback, contrasting sharply with Williams' typical collaborative 'bottom of the stairs' design culture

    high · Roger: 'Anything having to do with Star Wars Episode I was on a need-to-know basis where everybody was locked out except myself and the principal members...the team felt very isolated...That was incredibly harmful'

  • ?

    business_signal: Internal Williams design competition (described as 'shark tank' or 'rival street gangs') elevated all designers' output through peer pressure and feedback loops, with senior designers like Ritchie and Lawlor monitoring production lines for quality control

    high · Roger: 'The fact of the longevity of both...their influence along with Pat...truly epitomizes what the future of pinball was going to be' and discussion of Ritchie/Lawlor monitoring assembly lines

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Python Angelo's eccentricity and unconventional work style (unpredictable schedule, isolation, dramatic life) required co-designers with strong ego management to translate his artistic vision into finished games; his genius was inseparable from his instability

    high · Roger: 'Python was a genius...with that having Barry realize what could be done...I think that that is a unique skill set...Python...lived a very dramatically different life...tortured soul...but thought of him as a very dear friend'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Mark Ritchie, Bill Futz, and Python Angelo recruited to Capcom; non-compete clauses prevented Mark and Bill from designing games for one year, while Python somehow continued working—indicating possible carve-outs in restrictive employment terms

    high · Roger: 'Mark wasn't allowed to design a game for a certain amount of time due to like a no-compete clause...The same with Foots. Yeah...Python was still able to work somehow, which I'm not quite fully understanding'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie departed Williams in 1995 for video games at Atari, driven by personal factors (parents' health) and superior financial upside in home video game rights, not by industry downturn foresight

    medium · Roger: 'I believe that part of the reason for him wanting to go back to California was the health of his parents...the opportunity through Atari...pinball i get one shot...video game i get home rights as well'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Larry DeMar's programming transformed both video games (Defender) and pinball across iconic titles; his 'Bo Jackson' dual-sport impact on both mediums fundamentally shaped entertainment technology during this era

    high · Alan: 'Larry DeMar...he did both video games and pinball programming and he had massive influence...Larry never did [get injured]. He programmed so many iconic pins. Black Knight, High Speed, Funhouse, Adam's Family, Twilight Zone'

    • 14:34
    What's the deal with Dennis? Because I love his games. Very agreeable, very approachable, very talented, very much open to taking in people's advice, guidance, observations when it came to design and like. I think that, you know, maybe there is something to be said for somebody who stays the course to the point of it being intrusive. And I'm smiling to myself thinking about Steve Ritchie being on the assembly line to monitor how games are being built, to ensure that everything is to his utmost perfection and satisfaction. Pat Lawler going on the line. There's a different era that Dennis comes from where it's not as much of a hands-on situation. And I don't know if that influenced or impacted the work environment, the way he was perceived. I think, you know, when you talk about Williams in particular, Dennis leaving was just a net result of, guess what, we're shutting down pinball. Right. We're kind of lessening the groups. And unless you want to transition over into slot machines, which somebody like the late, great, undisputable, singular individuals, Lyman Sheets was able to make that transition. And Larry DeMar moving over and others into slot machines and gaming or Steve Ritchie moving over into video, if you were primarily pinball, that was it. There wasn't any dissatisfaction with Dennis so much as it was, we're scaling back, we're not introducing as many games. Sorry, take care. And then trying to land somewhere, and whether it was financials that was being looked at or anything else, look he did all right with greg frerich to create wonnelly yeah yeah i mean he still had talent and ability yeah absolutely when when you look at the situation i think it just became unnecessarily a matter of economics and times and dennis got caught yeah and you guys had so much talent there was a stable of talent in this era of bally williams i mean the design teams were We're stacked with talent. As the games become, they sell less and less, which we talked about in our previous episode. Yeah, some people got to go. I just wanted to bring up Dennis because he's someone I hope to talk to on the show one day. And he's just a personal favorite of mine. I got to meet him at the Texas Pinball Festival. I got to talk to him. And there's just something about his games. Like I said, Whitewater's my absolute favorite game of all time. I think that game is, I don't care how difficult it is to service. I just shopped it out yesterday. Spent a bunch of time making it even more nice because I love that game. I love every piece of that game from Yowsey's art package to his crazy ramps that he likes to do, the flow, the sound, Chris Granner to the best topper of all time. I just love that game. And I love Demolition Man. I love Indy 500 with Scared Stiff. Those games are always in my bar. I will put and special force as well yeah that's a great game and black water I think that game is so cool Dennis I know has admitted to being somebody who was looking at cabinet design and whatever else and not ever really thinking of himself as a pinball designer very inventive some of the things depending on personal taste some of the things absolutely work some of the other things it's kind of like Yeah, maybe not. But to your point, I think when it all came together, and obviously the Elvira series comes to mind, you know, I think that, yeah, Dennis was, and still can be, and hopefully will get a chance to be so, really a magician at doing pinball design. Absolutely. Another magician of this era, maybe not so much associated with design, though, would be Mr. Python Angelo. Python, we bring him up a lot on our show, and it's always kind with the caveat. We obviously, we never met him. We don't know him firsthand, but everything we've heard about him makes him seem like a wild card and a madman. And everyone's got fun stories about working with him or interesting stories, at least I should say. He's mostly known as an artist, but he did get a lot of co-designer credits on games from this era.
    19:17
    And if you listen to his side of things, he should have gotten all of the credit. Yeah. Can you describe a little bit about his involvement with design? A lot of the time he was partnered with Barry Osler, it seemed. Or Mark Ritchie. Yeah, and just what that process was like. Like, how much was he really doing on the design versus how much was he just saying or taking credit for? Python was instrumental.
    19:41
    He was a producer and a director, along with the lead designer. I think the two people that you mentioned, both Mark and Barry, have the belief and the strength within themselves to abdicate some of their ego and vanity to allow Python to express his visions. And I think that that is a unique skill set in any world, in any profession. When you have individuals who are, unto themselves, rock stars, Python was a genius. And with that having Barry realize what could be done with something like Penbot Right Machine Bride of Penbot Hurricane Cyclone I mean Taxi The list goes on and on Fishtails. He was. Popeye. He was an incredible character, lived a very dramatically different life than the majority of people out there. A very skilled, talented artist on a term's own. So a tortured soul on some levels. and we won't get into the deep psychology of it all, but thought of him as a very dear, dear friend. Truthfully, I know that we shared many times together a lot of insight into his world, his background, the tragedy of his life and the turns that it took. But sometimes you need to have somebody that is outside the realm of normalcy to bring you artistic depth, artistic wonder that would not happen otherwise.
    21:23
    And I think that Python stands head and shoulders above so many others as being much, much more than just this eccentric individual. His eccentricity defined what his output was. And more importantly, anything that you wind up encountering, you know the Python touch. but I think that he just had a different perspective on the world. I mean, he's no doubt a very talented individual. He's also, you know, kind of famous. We talked to Greg Ferreris on the show and, you know, he described like, he was like, yeah, he was a little bit like, sometimes you couldn't find him. Sometimes he would work all night. You know, sometimes he would like, he would work on his own schedule. He marched to the beat of his own drum, but that he was no doubt brilliant and just supremely talented at whatever he chose to do. But we're going to talk about that time period. This kind of segues because Python leaves Williams in the mid-90s, but Steve Ritchie also left Williams, a company that he worked for for almost 20 years. In 1995, you know, pinball, just at our last episode, it was beginning to slow at this point, but I'm assuming he probably would have been able to stay and keep designing games right up until the end of 1999 if he had wanted to, given his track record of sales, but he left to do video games instead. My question is, do you think that Steve just read the writing on the wall and kind of foresaw the closure of the pinball department as inevitable, or did it have something to do with the whole Capcom debacle wherein Python, his brother Mark Ritchie, and them got kind of poached to go work over at Capcom and created a whole scenario there, like a kerfuffle, I guess. How would you describe that whole situation with Capcom?
    23:20
    A unique opportunity for Futz, Bill Futz and Roeder, and for Mark, for Python. Potentially it was going to be for myself and others. I think that, you know, it was another competitor. It was another opportunity to kind of stake out a claim. I do believe, and I don't know how much this will be a point of truth. I know from the conversations that Steve and I had, because I actually worked on a couple of his video games that he wound up bringing to life, California Speed being one and getting licenses for some of the cars that he wanted to feature. my understanding and again I don't want to misspeak so I'll caution everybody that what I am saying may or may not be valid I believe that part of the reason for him wanting to go back to California was the health of his parents and wanting to be there as well as the opportunity through Atari which we had purchased to design video games and try to you know kind of break through in the new world where financially the upside was better yeah if i can do a great video game i get home rights as well okay pinball i get one shot despite whatever we may or may not be doing in licensing games for nintendo systems like we did for pinbot and i forget whatever else high speed the getaway yeah you did that one i wound up doing those deals so i should remember You've done so many things, though, Roger. You can forget some of these things. Yeah, tell me. But I think that that was, I won't say the writing on the wall, because in 95 we were still doing, in quotes, fine, relatively speaking. Right. I think that it was more personal. Okay. As well as professional for the decisions that he made. I do not believe, and, you know, when you have Steve on or Mark on, Maybe they'll recount something different that the emergence of Capcom had anything to do with it at all. I just want to speak more about Capcom, I guess, for a little bit. Like you say that you had an opportunity yourself to potentially go over there, but you end up staying at Williams. I won't ask you to go into the details of why or why not. But when those people leave, it's well known now that Mark wasn't allowed to design a game for a certain amount of time due to like a no-compete clause in his contract. So he gets shelved over at Capcom. One year. Yep. The same with Foots and Reuter. Same with Foots. Yeah. And with Wolfman. That was clearly done by Williams to hurt their competition, right? Their fledgling competition in some way. Well, I think that if you look at it corporately from the outside world, non-competes tend to exist out there in major business and industry. That's insane. Even in really boring industries that I've worked in, I get assigned non-competes. Yep.
    26:25
    Just saying. And a lot of that is because you don't know what proprietary information somebody is taking, whether it is technical, whether it is programming, you know, whatever aspect of what they've been exposed to. Even if they could be heading up manufacturing, maybe there's a new system, a new just-in-time that's been used, and now you're moving to another company. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of it being technology-based and or entertainment, you have a lot of non-competes that are out there. I guess I just want to know, like, you got to see, obviously, like, the second half of the 90s play out differently than the first half. Capcom comes in at a bad time. and probably having Mark and Bill not be able to, and Python was still able to work somehow, which I'm not quite fully understanding of that. But it seems like Python, despite his genius, always needed somebody to rein him in and sort of get his genius onto paper, onto display, whatever it is, like get it across the finish line. and i wonder if do you think that if they would have started earlier that capcom could have made a real go at being a dominant pinball player or was it just never going to happen with williams and bally entrenched and with already like data east sega and i mean godly premiere i guess at this time was kind of floundering and ending right elvin g starting up right then too and i always forget. Yeah. So do you think there's an alternate universe where Capcom pinball becomes a big player? Yes. I mean, that's why I considered making the jump, having a different sandbox to play in and a different opportunity to reshape the world. And I think that there was that unique opportunity that did exist in moving away from what had become a somewhat self-contained culture within Williams and Bally. You know, it's very difficult working for a publicly held company. You have ups and downs based on financial quarters and fiscal years, shareholder value. You know, the ruination of the industry, by and large, all happened a couple of decades earlier with the influence of Columbia Pictures and of Warner Brothers and of others that suddenly became different than the, in quotes, family businesses that they had been. You now become accountable to a different board of directors. As I said, to speculators and shareholders. And you have to make the bottom line. And it's not to say that you wind up sacrificing on creativity or output or anything else. But I think that the opportunity for Capcom would have been, again, unique. The funding would have been there. You had a company that was a very strong company financially, obviously, with Street Fighter and everything else. It was a major player. whether or not corporately they would have continued in the same fashion that WMS made the decision that, you know what, it's profitable, but it's not as profitable as it should be. We're going to offload this to amp up the stock value. Look, years prior, it's without the stock. Suddenly there was midway shares you could buy as well as waves electronics. everything became more fundamental to that and Capcom you know being very very large in the Pacific Rim with Pachinko and Pachislo and obviously their video game division both the coin up as well as the home I think that pinball could have been able to endure but who knows if it would have fallen victim to the same way that Sagan Data East did with Stern yeah absolutely That was one of the things that actually, again, without getting into details, it's why fundamentally I was saved from making a decision, thank God, by somebody who was a very dear friend who said, just wait, let me see if I get my contract. If I don't, then guess what? And it's like, waited a couple of weeks. Oh, okay, I guess I'm not going to go. So again, you know, life changes. But as I said, probably without wanting to sound too egotistical or too vain, I do honestly believe that being in a different position than the one that I was in, I could have influenced much, much more. And maybe the validation of that is the influence I did have the decades that I was at Williams, Bally, Midway, Atari, Williams Electronics Games through the transitioning there with the home division of Trade West to WMS Gaming to Scientific Games. for 26 and a half years, I think that my impact was very, very visible in regard to the success that the various companies and entities had. And I think being able to take that into a different world and being able to show that I wasn't a one trick pony, it was going to be exciting to do. And maybe that was part of the motivation for Mark and for Foots and for Python. And let's face it, Python turned around and made Brian Hanson a pretty damn good designer when it came to pinball magic. By shifting gears to programming and kind of bringing us back into just like the 1990s and how programming really took off and became so much deeper in this decade of pinball. One of the big figures in that, and we'll get to hopefully all of them, but one of the big ones for sure is Larry DeMar. Alan wrote in our notes that he's a Bo Jackson type of figure because he did both video games and pinball programming and he had massive influence. I think it was being God-like, taking nothing away from Bo. Yeah, Bo got injured, I guess. Larry never did.
    32:43
    He programmed so many iconic pins. Black Knight, High Speed, Funhouse, Adam's Family, Twilight Zone, World Cup Soccer. I mean, he really, if there's one programmer that you can point to in the similar way that we talked about Steve Ritchie or with Pat Lawler about change fundamentally what pinball was. I think it was Larry DeMar, and we just want to hear your thoughts on him. An amazingly talented individual who could have done anything in the world with his gift and decided way back when to take his skills, his vision, his appetite to astound and amaze into the world of coin operand and music games. Let's face it, he worked on Defender with Eugene. Yeah. He transformed video games. He transformed pinball. Larry is amazing and continues to be in different fields where he has done things that has redefined the course of various technologies, various form factors, various products. His mark is indelible. his gift and foresight into taking technology and manipulating it in a way that no one else had ever thought of. The only one comparable, Lyman Sheets. I would put those two on the Mount Rushmore programming for pinball as being the exceptional ones, the ones who have a gift, who had a gift in terms of Lyman, unfortunately, passing on before his time. but Larry is remarkable and he does it I will say as an outsider although as I said I know it's not true he seems to do it so effortlessly yeah it's almost as if when did you think of that yeah how did you know that that could happen and that that would work and we could go down the countless things that he wound up working on to bring to fruition let alone just the system that defined an era for Williams and Bailey pinball machines. Yeah. I mean, that's all Larry's doing. The stuff we'll talk about that allowed Steve to do what he did, Pat to do what he did, George to do what he did, Dennis to do what he did, they don't do that without Larry. Without the software framework. Even when Lyman came over to us and worked at the hip with Larry, The two of them, what a force. God.
    35:30
    I mean, to be around, and I'll speak about this personally, to be around that is a gift that I embrace, and my good fortune to be where I was when I was, and to experience it all firsthand, and to count all of these people, whether they think so or not, as friends. pat lawler once said and i think it holds true in an interview he designs games for millions of people around the world that he'll never meet step back for a moment and let that resonate and settle in with you because the true greats do it just for that it's not for themselves it's for thousands if not millions of people everywhere who will experience what it is that they've created. And we have that with artists. We have that with authors, musicians. We are blessed to have the community that we follow, that we revere with all of these outstanding individuals.
    36:43
    Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's well put. I mean, you brought up Lyman Sheets, who we were absolutely also going to talk about two of the greatest. I completely agree. The other one that stands out, and this isn't to put anyone else who worked there during this time into software, because there's a lot of games that were credited to a lot of different software programmers, but we only have so much time on an episode. But I want to talk about someone who's still working in the pinball industry on pinball machines now at Stern, but he started here, was Dwight Sullivan. And I find him to be another fascinating programmer. He's famous for many work, again, on some of Steve's classic games, just like Larry did. Terminator 2, Judgment Day, High Speed 2, Getaway, Star Trek, Next Generation. I've met Dwight. I've gotten to speak to Dwight. He's a super excitable and passionate guy. And I just want to know, like, what were your experiences working with, like, a young Dwight Sullivan? He has evolved. Dwight, in the beginning, I must say, was somewhat difficult. I won't call it arrogant, but his way he always thought was the right way. And I think that as he wound up understanding that the input, whether it's from me or others, wasn't meant to be negative so much as it was to embrace the concept of consideration. Open up your mind to the possibility that maybe doing something this way might be better. And more importantly, being able to state what that alternative was. It wasn't a question of going in and saying, Dwight, this sucks, or Lyman or Larry, this sucks. It's another thing to go in and say, you know what, I don't think it's working. And by the way, would you consider X? And I think as Dwight got more comfortable in his own skin, he embraced that to the point where he really has honed his skills and talents to the extent, to your point, that he is really an exceptional individual with a craft and a resume that is just stellar for these many decades. He has grown in to be the Dwight Sullivan that everybody knows and loves for his work ethic and for what he brings into the party, if you will. So for me, it's been great. And again, I mean, I don't want to make it sound as if it was like this, you know, terrible situation up front. It wasn't. But to see him evolve and to mature in his craft and to have the delight and the enthusiasm and the passion that he has. I think that it is wonderful and marvelous to see that in any human being, but especially Dwight, because I think he revels in it. And it's not necessarily ego so much as it is just the enjoyment of seeing the reaction of people when they experience something that he's created. Yeah, he's got – we put these three to mention specifically on this episode was because I sort of look at Larry as like God creator, like the guy that changed the way things are done. And he's kind of good at everything he does. Like his games are usually pretty balanced. They have big moments. Like he really changed the whole thing. Lyman is absolutely kind of the best ever at really teasing out game rules, balancings, depth of strategies, never stopped working on a game ever like had to be pulled away from games kicking and screaming because he would want more and more and more and more and more and i think dwight is uh what i think about dwight and what i love about dwight and it stands out to me is he took what larry started with the big moments like showtime on adam's family or whatever it is and that's what I get out of a Dwight game is Dwight games make me feel cool for doing things The super jackpot in Getaway that call sound signature that whole fanfare that you get the light shows that Dwight's famous for, that's what it comes to me. And all three of those guys, they define this era. They define the modern era. That's why I wanted to talk about them. We do want to talk about how Valley and Williams were not the only company at this time, even though we've established you guys were the industry leaders. you know you still had the shell of kind of got lead making games into the mid 90s you had capcom which we talked about the whole period that really your biggest on paper competitor outside of your own building was data east which came to be known as sega and now it's stern pinball which is currently the pinball market leader you've already discussed it we've heard it before whereas like the williams people seem to not they didn't count data east as a direct competitor they They didn't think of Data East as that, but they were. And when you guys talked about Data East Games or when Jurassic Park comes out or their Star Wars game comes out and they sell a bunch of units, what was the thought process at Williams at the time? Well, I think that much of it that we saw was the feeling of it being derivative. We didn't see the same level of originality that we were bringing to the table. It was almost as if if we did something, then they were going to do something to emulate what it was that we were doing. Yeah. And I think that the unique qualities of what the Williams and Bally games were from that era kind of stand apart from the games that Data East Sega brought to the marketplace. forgetting about whatever the mechanical reliability might have been because obviously there were differences just in the quality of the games, not a knock, just the fact that much of the tooling and whatever existed internally at Williams Valley. Right. It was something that had a longer history. So, you know, just that was a part of it as well as having Larry to develop a system that was exceptional that no one else could touch. but I think that when you look back I mean you mentioned two games, Star Wars my thing is which one and why, you mentioned Jurassic and it's like okay but how was that integrated into the gameplay, what was the frequency of it hitting and happening what were the angles on the game in terms of the overall design what was the flow of the game to get you from point one to point two and I think that that is where the differences were when we looked I know that there was a joke, and I don't want to demean anybody, but, you know, Lethal Weaponator looked a heck of a lot like Terminator. Sure. There were other games where if we did something on the backboard with little squares on something like, I don't know, Whirlwind, suddenly maybe you saw something similar on a Sega Dead East game. You know, I think that there were derivatives. It doesn't mean that there weren't some exceptional games, if you will, that they brought out, and or even games from Golly Premier. Right. I kind of stood out feeling about some of the atrocities, geometrically, that were brought into the marketplace. But I think that they were not seen as the same quality of competitor as we established. And again, I don't think that there was an arrogance at Williams Valley. I just think there was an acknowledgment that I'll use a different analogy. I don't think that General Motors back in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s thought too much about Ford. Even when Ford brought out the Mustang to change the whole profile of the company. Right. Chevy still held Corvette. You still had the Firebird from Pontiac. You still have the Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac. I mean, you had all of these nameplates that, bar none, was a little bit different than Ford and Mercury and Lincoln. And I don't think that GM necessarily thought, God, I wonder what Ford is doing. Oh, we better be really, really careful. And the one on the outside was Dodging Chrysler, who took a totally different approach when they came out with, in quotes, muscle cars, saying, well, we can't compete over here, so we're going to try this over here. So I think that, you know, I tend to look historically and referentially when I'm asked or consider types of comparisons between companies in similar industries. That's not to say that IBM and Apple did not have very similar approaches and concerns looking over their shoulder the same way that Microsoft did. Right. I think that, you know, were they taking market share away? No, not necessarily. It didn't mean to minimize the production runs, as you said, for Star Wars and or for Jurassic Park. It just meant that there was a hiccup. The same way that whatever's happening in the marketplace today with Wolverine and Deadpool will go by the wayside with the next big release from a new movie from a different studio. You kind of just jockey back and forth, hoping that there's enough food in the pot that everybody can eat. Yep. Right. I just think it's interesting because I've heard it from the people that worked at Williams. It was always like, our competition's down the hall. Even George Gomez says that now. He's like, our competition was down the hall. And now he's working at a company that is the industry leader that once upon a time was that company across town that they didn't consider to be their competition necessarily. Your counterpart over at Data East Sega, not that anyone can replace Roger Sharp in any way. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like, or Joe Kamenkow, he kind of seemed to pull licensing duty as well as being a game designer. And Joe and Gary, they dove completely into licensing. Yep. And Joe is a unique individual, incredibly skilled, talented. And let's face it, you know, that was something that, you know, we did look at and see what they were doing. And it became, I like to think of it personally as a friendly competition. Joe is a very, very dear friend. I admire what he has been able to achieve in his life and his career across different industries, how he has shaped them and influenced them. Truly an incredibly unique individual. But I think to your point, but in some ways, it's almost like, you know, how does Jersey Jack play into Stern, into Barrels of Fun, into Chicago Gaming, into Pinball Brothers, into American Pinball? I mean, you have a whole different world now where the pie is a lot smaller than it once was. Yeah. And the impact of anybody coming in with anything and even moving a couple of hundred games takes away a couple of hundred games from somebody else versus look. I mean, there was a period of time where we were doing 60 to 70 to 80,000 pinball machines a year. If we lost five or six or 10, it was somewhat nominal into the overall scheme of things, just on a percent basis. I want people to understand this, like our listeners and lots of new people. We're very excited about modern pinball and just having enough companies and getting games and getting good games and getting quality games on the market. But the market, I think most people understand is there's a lot of people buying them for the home versus just on location like pinball has been historically. However, I hear a lot of things sometimes like pinball is more popular than it's ever been. And it just makes me lose my mind because I'm like, if you look at the 1970s, they're selling crazy units like in pinballs everywhere. It's in laundromats. It's in coffee shops. It's in bars, arcades, YMCA. It's like in pinball today is not used to be over three, three million pinball machines in active operation. back in the 70s.
    49:17
    Now, I think there's maybe about 300,000 or 400,000 in active operation. There you go. The majority, obviously, are older games just based on the production output from all the various companies, if you will, today. At one point in time, to your point, after the overturning of the law in New York and the impact that it had across various states and whatever else. Yeah, probably about three or four companies manufacturing upwards from 80 to 100,000 pinball machines per year. They're working on double and triple shifts to get enough product there to feed the world market. There is a way of kind of viewing things a little bit differently than maybe some people contemporarily view it today, taking nothing away. Is it a golden age today? I know that long after I'm gone in another 10, 15, 20 years or so, people will look back and say, oh, the golden age? Golden age was in the 20s. Sure. And they're not going to be talking about 1920s. They're going to be talking about 2020s. Yeah. No, for sure. I think it's just incredible how the hobby's pivoted from being sort of a mass market, pinballs everywhere to really turning and and becoming like a niche hobby market and still finding a way to survive as a luxury good uh it's just different than what it's always been i just wanted to say like it just sometimes for listeners of the podcast please don't be like man you must be so excited pinball's you know more successful than it's ever been i was like i don't know about that. That is definitely not the case, but it is good. It's better than in the early 2000s where it felt like it could go away at any time and never come back. Well, and the key right now, I'll state it, where the greatest growth opportunity and survival for pinball exists is commercial, taking nothing away from the home market. There needs to be a greater importance on opening up new business. It cannot be left to people randomly opening up another barcade here, another barcade there, another family entertainment center here or there. There needs to be an effort made to say, look, we are going to do this across the board and try to get pinball back into commercial locations. And the biggest challenge with that is going to be, how do you maintain the games on location? So few people exist out there that have the technical expertise to fix a game. And until that changes, pinball is going to be somewhere in the background because many of the places that you wind up seeing today that are opening up their doors to games, I guarantee you that 95% of them, if you walk in, don't have a pinball machine. Yeah. Not even one. And that needs to, at some point in time, change. I agree. That's my observation. 100%. I think it's something we talk about on the podcast a lot. we're very location centered podcast we don't really talk about home collecting much at all and i think that's because me and alan both know that if location pinball dies pinball dies it's the only way the hobby can continue to grow and be around for the long term hopefully we see more people kind of focus or try to shift and take different approaches to encouraging location play but it's nice to hear you see the same thing yep going back to competition though so we know Bally Williams didn't really view Data East as competition or anyone for that matter. But for you personally, in your role in marketing and acquiring licenses and everything, were there any licenses that Data East sniped from out under you guys or anything that you really wish you had been able to acquire? I know you mentioned Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Batman just offhand in the last episode, but anything that you're like, damn, Joe got to that one first? Not really. There were many that I turned down that Joe wound up taking and getting. I don't know if we ever really were in direct competition going after something. I do know that, and I'll share this, I do know that we have the opportunity to either secure the license for Star Wars and I thought that Indiana Jones was the better license and we did not move on Star Wars and Mark stepped up to obviously do Indiana Jones and I think that were there other instances I do know that I probably might have made a better choice instead of roller games, maybe going with American Gladiators I don't know. I think that's one of those things you only know in retrospect i don't think at the time anyone would have been like no trust me it's roller derby and wrestling all that oh yeah i like that yeah it was only when i went out to california on set and saw what it was where i was like oh my god but steve i think did a remarkable job oh that's a fun game i love that game yeah more importantly i will share another part i was only good advertisers in the game. And it opened up some unique doors for us going forward. I mentioned before in the previous podcast that my approach to licensing was I needed to have promotions. I needed to have some something that gave value added instead of just slapping a brand or a personality onto a machine where there's a pinball machine, video game, novelty redemption. I needed to have some something else to offset the fact that I don't have the marketing wherewithal budgets to reach an audience. And I can only do business to business. I can only work through my distributors. I cannot work to the operators. And I definitely cannot work to the consumer because I cannot direct the consumer to where they can find a particular product. So with those limitations, the ability to kind of jump on board the bandwagon for a big feature film, and let's say with Terminator 2 being out there for the premiere in California, setting up games, running tournaments, being part of things with Arnold, James Cameron, Larry Kasanoff, and the rest. that visibility being out there along with Larry and Pat and John for, and I think Chris as well, for the premier red carpet walk for Adam's family and being able to get distributors in to an NBA all-star weekend activity and event, being part of NBA Jam session with arcade games on display, being part and parcel along with whatever claim was doing for their NBA generic game for the home market for Nintendo. I mean, all of those things, I think, came into play to try to bring in more value. So in the case of, we mentioned before Stargate, I talked to Roland Emmerich and Dean Devlin. And, you know, I just wasn't certain. I had seen Universal Soldier. I thought it was a good movie. Like Dolph Lundgren. I thought that John and Claude Van Damme were okay. But it was just like, meh. I don't know. And Stargate's going to be what?
    56:55
    Yeah. And I passed. And I told them, I said, call Gil Pollack at Premiere. And, you know, I think that they can do a good job. And admittedly, they wound up doing what I thought was a great job, except the mechanical reliability, unfortunately, will hurt that game. But I think that by and large, I won't say I danced to our own drummer in terms of things. I know that there were times where internally I had to do a sales pitch. Other times I got hit over the head saying, this is what we want. So there were different motivations, if you will, to try to secure properties and brands. But was there anything that I had really been desirous of, I think I ran out of time when we shut down. I really wanted Lord of the Rings and talked and encouraged Gary to do that. And I know that George was on the board way back when at Williams, and finally they wound up laying the bullet and doing it. But I think that, you know, again... A Bally Williams Lord of the Rings would just... It would be, like, peak. Yeah. My wife loves tokens. I think it would have been fun. way back when whoever might have stepped up to do it as i said it wasn't a question of offering something and saying who's going to step up although it was if somebody didn't step up then we didn't go for it you walked away i think that's a big reason because the fact that bally williams didn't do all licensed games it was only when it was an appropriate fit and original themes when that was an appropriate fit and that's why the bally williams games are so consistently good I think, because you didn't force anything. Well, I mean, that's part of it. Everything we've talked about is part of it. But it's you didn't force any themes down designers throats in it. The results speak for themselves.
    58:46
    Well, kind of. I have a thing for Simeon's that I think is well known. I am a monkey person. And is that well known? Is that well known? Well, I think it is for some people that kind of know some of my background and or maybe even saw the movie. Yeah. Well, I saw the movie, but I don't think it's like that clearly. How did that impact you? When does this come into Bally Williams? I don't know of any monkey. I did like reading Michael Crichton's book, Congo. Oh, yeah. The opportunity to work with Kathleen Kennedy and Mr. Frank Marshall was such. and more importantly to be able to meet Amy. I knew that Amy was an actress. She was dressed in gorilla garb. I knew all of that stuff when I went out. But I was able to get a designer to step up and say, sure, I'll do it. Yes! Good! Because we're going to go on set to do this. And I really want to do this. It's going to be huge. It's going to be great. and you know it wasn't necessarily as huge and as great i think the game really kind of captured the essence of the movie whether people like or not i know it's not a great tournament game just because of the rule set and what can be turned on and off but uh yeah that was one where please somebody it was worth it that game is awesome i'm on the record i love congo the pinball machine I love Congo the movie. So I guess maybe I'm a simian file too. I don't know. Maybe I'm into monkeys too. I don't know. Amy wants raindrop drink. I'm mostly known for my love of alligators, but I guess I love that movie. Amy want raindrop drink. Yeah, I love that movie. Yep. Yeah, it was kind of good. And I just want to clarify for people who may not know, the reason for this infatuation, we'll call it. when I went to the zoo as a young person the lions and tigers were just paced back and forth all of the birds and things had eyes on either side of their head and you really couldn't focus monkeys would look back at you yeah and it was almost as if you had a connection yeah and that was something that was very meaningful to me growing up and the fact that I really liked going to whether it was Lincoln Park Zoo or others or when I lived in New York Central Park Zoo all the time and just going to the gorilla house or the monkey house and seeing all of the various monkeys And I have a collection of little stuffed monkeys and things, Ellen, that we blew up for the movie that she gives me at the time of the hole-in-the-alley, the pizza time and all the rest of that. Yeah. So there are some Easter eggs in there, if you will. There's many. That one in particular kind of captures the essence of just two monkeys. That's us. We're just two monkeys. So I love that. I digress. I love that, Roger. No, that's great. I had no idea. I don't know enough of my. I think it was more to the essence of, you know, never really forcing things to any of the designers. Unless it was Kongo. It wasn't a force. It was a strong encouragement.
    62:19
    Well, I'm glad it exists in this world. I, for one, am glad that you pushed on that because I love that game. I love that movie.
    62:28
    Excellent. So we want to ask you just a couple more questions, and we'll wrap this up quickly. But we've done a few episodes of the podcast. Actually, our very first episode of the podcast, Alex and I just covered lightning flippers. We covered what games came with them, kind of their history. But since you were there at Williams and you were clearly involved and you had to deal with marketing, and I'm sure you dealt with some distributors and things like that, can you tell us more about kind of making Lightning Flippers, developing them, why they were developed, and sort of what your thoughts on them are moving forward? Okay. Let's go back in history. Silver Slugger comes out, basic game, priced right, street location. Damn, it's successful. Well, we've got to do our own basic game. Barry stepped up, Barry Osler, and I was able to get the license for Harley Davidson, and we do Harley Davidson. Yeah, I like that game. The ball times were a little bit long. Well, what do we do? The design is kind of set in stone in terms of the body. It's not return lanes per se or anything else. Game is very symmetrical. Obviously, the feed's coming back. Why don't we just shorten the flipper, widen the area, so that we can reduce the game time from, I think we were about three and a quarter minutes, down to about two and a half, which is pretty close to where Silver Slugger was and eventually Vegas. and I think there were a couple of other in quotes basic street games that they wound up doing so that was the point for us and then admittedly we decided to do the same on Fishtails because of that game time and what the feeds were Did Barry Osler's Harley Davidson did that ship with Lightning Flippers ever? Because I've only played that game a couple of times but I don't think it Did it? I don't think it had lightnings on it. I didn't know that. It did, but whether or not the location owner or operator decided to keep them on. Gotcha. Because admittedly, the problem was it cut down on earnings. Huh. The games were shorter, but by being shorter, it meant that the player was not having as much satisfaction in playing the game. Right. Which meant the thing was not going to play it again. Right. That's really interesting. Yeah, so we covered those lightning flippers. We actually, I keep them on all the games that we got from the factory that we have. So like our Fishtails and our Dracula, we keep it with lightning flippers since that's how they came. I do believe that a lot, like both Fishtails and Dracula are great in all machines, very cool games. But I think they're also, their software is a little bit, I would say term of the day, people would call it shallow. But I think that they're perfectly suited to having lightning flippers. so I don't like when people kind of adjust them because I think both of those games are perfect with lightning flippers which I find is interesting but yeah that's why we did our whole episode on the lightning flippers as a personal and I just thought it was an interesting let me just make a correction because I made a statement before and I didn't mean to make it absolute whether or not in production the decision was made to have lightning flippers be standard on Harley-Davidson? I don't know. There may have been feedback from the sales department saying, hi, we're getting reports back from distribution and their key customers.
    66:06
    No. So what might have started as the introduction of a shorter flipper might have said, okay, we're making this a basic game. Let's just stick with our regular flipper and let's leave it at that. We don't want to do too much too soon because in the case of Fishtails and Dracula, regardless of however deep or lack thereof game roll-wise, you had enough toys and things on it where you could get by with a shrewd flipper.
    66:36
    Regardless, that makes me want to get one of those Bally Harleys and put lightning flippers on it. Yeah, that'd be fun. No, no. All right, so in another episode of ours, we covered all the Super Pin Widebodies. You touched on it a little bit in a previous episode or earlier in this episode when you were talking about Pat, but it seems like I want to hear this completely because basically for about a year, year and a half, Bally Williams made a line of what are called super pins, which are wide bodies that you branded as super pins. and now it seems that Pat was driving the bus there. He sounds like he really wanted to do it, but you guys did a whole line of them. So you guys kind of went all in. And since you're the marketing, you're the marketing guy. I wanted to hear your take of what your thoughts were of developing the wide body platform. You're also a pinball historian. So you've known that like wide bodies get done, then they get copied, then people hate them, then they don't get played. What did you think was going to be different about the SuperPen era, and what can you tell us about sort of the development of those games? Also, who coined the term SuperPen? It's a very good question, at least. Let me make reference and mention of what I affectionately have called the squat buddies from a previous era that were just horrific and horrendous versus the different configuration that Gottlieb came out with in their System 80 games like Spider-Man, the original Panthera, Counterforce, and so many others from that era. just changing the look and feel of it versus going in a different direction with Safecracker and creating something that will a combination wall game which was big in Germany and elsewhere so incorporating that as well as collectible tokens a small footprint the idea of doing super pens could have been Jeff Johnson that might have coined it when we were working on Judge Dredd because the essence of that was we're going to do a buy-in of you can do either this super game or you can do the regular game. And the super game is going to start with this or it's going to start with that. For an extra buck or 50 cents or whatever it was back then, that is how we wound up looking at the marketplace saying wow, Twilight Zone was very successful. Look at all the machines we sold. Now, there's a couple of ways to approach that if you're in the sales marketing area. One is to acknowledge that people have recognized that this is different, which means that it stands out in a lineup of games, which means that people are going to gravitate to it. Because it's different means that it's new, even though it may not be with the game next to it being maybe newer, but with a different configuration. Yep. So some of that is due to the fact of the wonder and spectacularness of Ted Estes and Louis Colziars and Larry DeMar and Pat Lawler and everybody else working on the game. Ron Crutch and that list kind of goes on and on because it was Twilight Zone and not necessarily. It is a game called pinball as successful being called pinball as opposed to having Twilight Zone as a theme. So we did do Jet Thread and there are a number of others. So you've already made that commitment to working with a vendor for that size of wood. Let's continue going. Yeah. And you wind up continuing through where it is price efficient, cost effective to continue to go in that size wood. A little bit different than I'm looking at it because I'm sitting here in one of my game areas at home. was looking at global warfare, which was a wide body. Not a squat body. It was a wide body in terms of my design for game plan. Yep. A little bit different than like a Space Invaders, an Embryon. Right. Super wide. A future Spawn. So, again, I think that that was the premise as to why we decided to do it, to shake things up, to try to give a little bit more of an impetus to the marketplace. to squeeze out more sales as a product differentiator. That makes sense. And those games are really cool because they are, like, packed full of stuff, and we'll never see a series of games like that again, I don't think. I do think it's fun that they let, like, or not let, they had every designer pretty much there do one Super Pen. Yeah, and Pat did too. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, because he got Roadshow. Yeah, he kind of started it off and then curtained it. Yeah. We got two more questions here real quick. Something we didn't cover in the first episode was the introduction of the playfield clear coat. These games started getting what Williams called a diamond plate, and now every game has it now. Pinball has had it now for the last 30 years. It makes the playfields hold up much better. They're much more resilient. I heard an interview that Pat did on an old TopCast interview where he iterated that there was some disagreement. and I think you touched on it as part of maybe why pinball died, about the life cycle of a pinball machine on location and having a reason to buy a new one. One of the reasons back in the day an operator would choose to invest in a new game and have to recoup all that money and start the clock over was that the play field would just wear out and it would just get pitted and just carved out and just worn out. Pat said that at Williams, there was some discussion when they're rolling out the clear coat technology that hey what if we're shooting ourselves in the foot here for future sales what if these games hold up longer therefore there's no market differentiation as you put it therefore why do i need to buy a new game like why do i need to buy monster bash when i still have my adams family that's making money. So what do you recall of that time? And what are your thoughts on the playfield clearcoats? It was a great discussion. And with different coatings, some of it, there were some restrictions because of OSHA, the fumes of putting clearcoat or some coating over the games. Obviously, and you guys are aware of this because you're in the business of it. There were some games that we just put down, we, I mean, the industry, basically put down plastic over certain areas. Yeah, mylar. Where there was going to be more wear and tear, mylar, thank you, different areas. It was a question of, you know, are you going to dance for the devil or not? Right. And the devil was the fact that, you know, we need to have the games last longer to validate the investment. Just have to do it. Totally. Because, unfortunately, back then, the majority of commercial locations were not. I mentioned it before. You're sending out a collector, not somebody who is a tech. Does that mean he's going to bring some playfield cleaner and take the glass and wipe down the playfield? No. It's going to be mucked up. It's never going to be taken care of. They're never going to do any kind of waxing, cleaning, or whatever else. or God forbid they're going to do it with Windex or something on the physical platform rather than the glass, which is going to destroy stuff anyway. Yeah. So to try to minimize the damage to quality products, and not just from us, from everybody. Yeah. We wind up doing a clear coat to say, look, we can't trust you to take care of your investment, so we're going to try to help and do it for you. I think that the decision ultimately was it does become a selling factor for us through our distributors to the end customer. Guess what? You're never, ever going to have to do X, Y, and Z because this game has something that they're calling diamond plate. Right. Ooh, what's diamond plate? Diamonds. I want diamonds. I mean, all of that. Diamonds are good. Yeah. Diamonds are strong. Diamonds are hard. Whatever marketing stuff I might have created in terms of my mailings out to distributors or to the trade press probably emphasized all of the goodness that we were doing with this whole new innovation. Pat said that, and his recollections of that event were, basically, I hear you. I understand what you're saying. Operators currently are replacing games. If we're afraid that we can't sell them a new game, then maybe our new game isn't that good. Thank you. Yep. And then that's what Pat said, was that I want to be challenged to make a game that's better than the games that I already made. That I'm going to sell you based on quality. And I'm not going to worry about, well, planned obsolescence, essentially. Yeah. And why a good company doesn't rely on planned obsolescence or solely rely on planned obsolescence in that building the best quality product is the best marketing you could ever do for your company and its future business. Well, I want to end this episode, Roger, with the last question I got to ask is a big part of these 90s games to me are just how good the sound and music got for these games. And I think about, just like Pavlov's dogs, about how important sound is to a game. In the late 80s and into the 90s, Gottlieb had Dave Zabriskie. Data East had David Thiel. And at Bally Williams, you guys had Chris Granner, who I consider to be the GOAT, the best who ever did it. But can you tell us about Chris Granner and the music and sound packages that he composed during this era and their impact on the games that you guys released? Oh, my God. I mean, Chris created soundscapes that were just astounding. He immersed himself in the experience, knowing where the tempo needed to be. What am I going to do to build up the anticipation and excitement for the player so that they are overcome when this particular event happens and suddenly their heart is racing? How do I, in quotes, in a nice way, how do I manipulate that? How do I influence those types of emotions and behavior? How do I soothe the soul? How do I create something where this action or pending action is getting ready for the curtain to be drawn and suddenly the drums to start and suddenly we're going to bring in the horn section and the strings? I mean, I think that, you know, Pat brought, as we said, inventiveness. Chris brought life to the games. He brought a soul to the games that really influenced everybody that was working on the games. And somebody like Matt Booty brought in DCS as a sound system where we could replicate high fidelity music like never before and more sophisticated sound systems to give you the fidelity so that you could appreciate the orchestration of what Chris was doing. All these other incredibly talented individuals were bringing to bear. And I think that, you know, it becomes more mesmerizing when you turn on a game and suddenly you hear that sound. And it's not just the background sound of turning on Flash or turning on a Firepower and hearing that kind of sound. You're talking about turning on games and suddenly you have this, effectively, this concert effect. And more importantly, for some of the licensed games that are music-based, you get to hear the albums. You get to hear the singles and the fidelity of it all. So I think that Chris laid the groundwork for everybody. You have some exemplary individuals across the board and many that we have not touched upon, the mechanical, electrical folks. Oh, yeah. There's too many. And the artists and all of that, that really kind of have created this industry from the ground up. I mean, look back historically, look at the innovations that have happened over the past 50, 60, 70 years and where it has brought the medium and the influences that it has had on other worlds of entertainment like video games. And conversely, video games having an influence and impact on pinball and its evolution and development. We stand among legends and heroes. So that is my take on Chris and everybody else associated. Well, I think you just put a nice little bow on this series of episodes, Roger, about why this era of pinball was so special and why pinball of all eras is so special and why we all love this same game that we're still playing all these, what, 70, 80 years later after the flipper comes in and brings skill to the game. We appreciate your time for joining us once again. Always a pleasure talking to you. My pleasure as well. Thanks, guys, for indulging me. Yeah, it's been a blast. Thank you for listening to another episode of the Wedgehead Pinball Podcast. Go out, play some pinball, play some of these 90s games. They're a lot of fun. We always have them on the floor at Wedgehead, and they will always be on the floor at Wedgehead because I love them so much. But wherever you're at in the world, go out and play some of these classics. They are why modern pinball is the way it is. A lot of the groundwork was laid during this decade. And until next time, good luck. Don't suck.
    80:34
    Paranoia, paranoia, everybody's coming to get me To say you never met me I'm running underground with the most in holes Hear the voices in my head, I swear to God it sounds like they're snoring But if you're bored then you're pouring The agony and the irony, they're killing me I'm not sick, but I'm not well And I'm so hard Cause I'm in hell I'm not sick, but I'm not well And I'm so hard To make it well Agora